Ouroboros Posted July 13, 2005 Share Posted July 13, 2005 The concept of Heaven and Hell is moot, since we won't remember anything from our life. Memory and our actions are decided by our brain, and the physical matter that constitutes our brain is not transfered into the higher realms. So if you don't remember why you did something wrong, and the physical matter that made you do it is not with you, who is really punished in Hell? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simonpeter Posted July 13, 2005 Share Posted July 13, 2005 If there is Free will then what's to rebel against? The Christians Idea of Free will is absurd. If I hold a gun to your head and demand something from you, if you give it to me, is that exercising your "Free will" or is it thru brutal coercion that I got it? This is the same idea as Hell. There is No free will. the gun to the head is Hell, where is the free will? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Free will is not a Christian concept. Free Will means that you have the freedom to chose (in the case of this topic) who you will serve. Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruit in the belief (pride) they could become as powerful as God. The child was demanding power over the parent. I don't believe anywhere in the Scriptures it says that you have to like or approve of the consequences. That's like arguing that life isn't fair. However, in your free will you can decide if you want the holder of the gun to pull the trigger or not. Unfortunately, due to pride, most chose the bullet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotBlinded Posted July 13, 2005 Share Posted July 13, 2005 Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruit in the belief (pride) they could become as powerful as God. How did they have pride if they were sinless? They were sinless before eating the fruit right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted July 13, 2005 Share Posted July 13, 2005 Heaven and Hell are only fanciful constructs to able the preacher to influence people and also tools for political power. Without an efficient police force, the H&H enables society to direct the people to obedience of the law, by simple scare tactics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mythra Posted July 13, 2005 Share Posted July 13, 2005 You're almost right. The Jews of the O.T. were prohibited to mentioned Satan's name or to make any direct references about him, feeling that in doing do would honor him.<{POST_SNAPBACK}> What a convenient christian calisthenic. Bravo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Japedo Posted July 13, 2005 Author Share Posted July 13, 2005 Free will is not a Christian concept. Free Will means that you have the freedom to chose (in the case of this topic) who you will serve. Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruit in the belief (pride) they could become as powerful as God. The child was demanding power over the parent. I don't believe anywhere in the Scriptures it says that you have to like or approve of the consequences. That's like arguing that life isn't fair. However, in your free will you can decide if you want the holder of the gun to pull the trigger or not. Unfortunately, due to pride, most chose the bullet. I serve Reason and Logic. Are these not god given abilities to 'discern and decipher what is true and what is bs? How could Adam and Eve know what they were doing was wrong if they had no concept of "WRONG" before eating the apple? The Child out of ignorance wants power over the parent, you can not hold the child accountable for wanting to grow and be as great as their parents can you? I think it's horrific that you believe people choose the bullet. Who is responsible for the "bullet" in the analogy, the person being held hostage or the person holding the gun and pulling the trigger? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted July 13, 2005 Share Posted July 13, 2005 Free will is not a Christian concept. Free Will means that you have the freedom to chose (in the case of this topic) who you will serve. Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruit in the belief (pride) they could become as powerful as God. The child was demanding power over the parent. I don't believe anywhere in the Scriptures it says that you have to like or approve of the consequences. That's like arguing that life isn't fair. However, in your free will you can decide if you want the holder of the gun to pull the trigger or not. Unfortunately, due to pride, most chose the bullet. A&E didn't know better, because their ability to discern between good and evil was embedded in the fruit itself. They didn't know sin, because the fruit would give them the understanding of sin. So did they really sin, since they didn't know what sin was or not? Or is sin something we do unknowingly and still get blamed for? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simonpeter Posted July 13, 2005 Share Posted July 13, 2005 How did they have pride if they were sinless? They were sinless before eating the fruit right? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Excellent question. That one bothered me at one time. There are teachings that say that even thinking about sinning is the same as doing the sin. It is my hope that the process of considering a sin -- the temptation process -- is not counted as a sin until it has been committed. I do a lot of sinning in my mind during the day. I have the faith that God understands the human condition and he slaps on a lot of grace. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted July 13, 2005 Share Posted July 13, 2005 EHHHH....Wrong Answer....most Jews do not believe in the whole "devil" thing. Where does it say that in Genesis that Satan is the deceiver or anywhere in the Old Testament? Show me the scripture. Just so you'll know, many like myself, and I know, Madame M, had made it into the Messianic circles on our path to deconversion. Don't claim to speak for the Jews, because you don't. The devil is NOWHERE in the Old Testament. The only mentioning of the devil, or I should say Satan, is in Job, as the accuser and prosecutor, trying to frame Job and God in a game of poker. I think Satan won that match, btw... The name Satan comes from Zoroastrianism, IIRC. Even the concepts of angels and demons come from that Persian religion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted July 13, 2005 Share Posted July 13, 2005 Excellent question. That one bothered me at one time. There are teachings that say that even thinking about sinning is the same as doing the sin. It is my hope that the process of considering a sin -- the temptation process -- is not counted as a sin until it has been committed. I do a lot of sinning in my mind during the day. I have the faith that God understands the human condition and he slaps on a lot of grace. But if you do something you don't know is a sin, are you sinning then? Say for instance you buy a new car, an SUV, you get only 9 MPG, and contributes to pollution. Maybe God see this as a sin, but you don't know it yet? Should he punish you for it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simonpeter Posted July 13, 2005 Share Posted July 13, 2005 I serve Reason and Logic. Are these not god given abilities to 'discern and decipher what is true and what is bs? How could Adam and Eve know what they were doing was wrong if they had no concept of "WRONG" before eating the apple? The Child out of ignorance wants power over the parent, you can not hold the child accountable for wanting to grow and be as great as their parents can you? I think it's horrific that you believe people choose the bullet. Who is responsible for the "bullet" in the analogy, the person being held hostage or the person holding the gun and pulling the trigger? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> There is no indication that Adam and Eve were placed on this planet ignorant. God made them masters over all life. He placed them in a garden that they were to tend. They ate the fruit in the belief that they would become a powerful and knowlegable as God. They knew it would be wrong because God told them that if they ate or touched the fruit they would die. It doesn't get any clearer than that. You see, they chose the bullet (death) (kinda' sorry I initially used the bullet analogy). Your other good question is who's finger is on the trigger. Most fundamentalists believe that God is holding the gun and trigger. I happen to believe that Satan carries the weapon and Jesus will disarm him if we ask. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simonpeter Posted July 13, 2005 Share Posted July 13, 2005 EHHHH....Wrong Answer....most Jews do not believe in the whole "devil" thing. Where does it say that in Genesis that Satan is the deceiver or anywhere in the Old Testament? Show me the scripture. Just so you'll know, many like myself, and I know, Madame M, had made it into the Messianic circles on our path to deconversion. Don't claim to speak for the Jews, because you don't. The devil is NOWHERE in the Old Testament. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> The book of Job, chapter 1, very early in the verses, clearly refers to Satan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted July 13, 2005 Share Posted July 13, 2005 There is no indication that Adam and Eve were placed on this planet ignorant. God made them masters over all life. He placed them in a garden that they were to tend. They ate the fruit in the belief that they would become a powerful and knowlegable as God. They knew it would be wrong because God told them that if they ate or touched the fruit they would die. It doesn't get any clearer than that. You see, they chose the bullet (death) (kinda' sorry I initially used the bullet analogy). Your other good question is who's finger is on the trigger. Most fundamentalists believe that God is holding the gun and trigger. I happen to believe that Satan carries the weapon and Jesus will disarm him if we ask. Gen 2:17 But of the tree, of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. The fruit would give them the knowledge of good and evil. They didn't have the knowledge before that, otherwise why would the fruit give them that? You can't give a trait to a person that already have the trait. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simonpeter Posted July 13, 2005 Share Posted July 13, 2005 Really? I was hoping that my savior Hercules would be the one to do it. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I would suggest that you not chose a lessor god. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted July 13, 2005 Share Posted July 13, 2005 I would suggest that you not chose a lessor god. (lesser, a lessor is someone under a lease, lesser is something smaller) And the theory that the fruit would make you like God, was what the snake said, not what God said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted July 13, 2005 Share Posted July 13, 2005 Who are you to say that Hercules, Mithra, Horace or Osiris are lessor?? (again, "lesser", not "lessor") Who has the lease contract? Normally spelling errors are ok, but "lessor" look too funny to me... sorry... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Japedo Posted July 13, 2005 Author Share Posted July 13, 2005 There is no indication that Adam and Eve were placed on this planet ignorant. God made them masters over all life. He placed them in a garden that they were to tend. They ate the fruit in the belief that they would become a powerful and knowlegable as God. They knew it would be wrong because God told them that if they ate or touched the fruit they would die. It doesn't get any clearer than that. You see, they chose the bullet (death) (kinda' sorry I initially used the bullet analogy). Your other good question is who's finger is on the trigger. Most fundamentalists believe that God is holding the gun and trigger. I happen to believe that Satan carries the weapon and Jesus will disarm him if we ask. It said the Fruit was off of the tree of Knowledge does it not? Good and Evil. As for example they didn't even know they were sinfully naked until they ate the apple and had knowledge it was wrong. They were placed on the planet (if you believe the story) with out knowledge of sin. How do they know what death ment if death never occurred or if they were with out knowledge of death? You have to have logic of a pretzel to believe this account. Looking thru Christian Glasses I will answer your Satan/God finger on the trigger bit. Who holds the ultimate judgment over us? Satan surely doesn't. The finger on the trigger is God, he's the one that will send you to your eternal hot vacation spot if you Reject the dogma, the Devil thru your belief has no control over that, unless you believe he is equal with god and they talk about who goes where? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted July 13, 2005 Share Posted July 13, 2005 So true. And if one does believe that Satan has that type of power, that would mean that Christians don't believe in only one god but two. Uh-Uh-Uh Very true. If catastrophic events, diseases and pests are from the devil, doesn't it mean that the devil can create things too? So is he a creator (to bad things), but still the power of creating things God can't create? And since it's easier to create evil than good in this world, maybe he's the stronger one too? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simonpeter Posted July 13, 2005 Share Posted July 13, 2005 Simonpeter.... BTW, I forgot to add the following; It was YHWH's who's name the Jews did not feel fit to speak complete fear of breaking the commandment..."Thou shalt not say the Lord thy God's name in vein..." God's real name is not god and Jesus's name is Yeshua. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> The name of God was not to be said outloud as you said. What is facinating is that in the old temple in Jerusalem, when the High Priest would enter the Holy of Holies (where the alleged Ark of the Covenant was once housed) they would tie bells on his robe and a rope with a long tether around one of his ankles. This was to insure that God wouldn't snatch the priest. If the bells stopped ringing the other priests were to pull the High Priest from the grasp of God. However, Satan's name was also prohibited. If they did or made any reference to Satan they would spit on the ground. I'm not Jewish but have read this in several places in researching ancient Jewish, religious customs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted July 13, 2005 Share Posted July 13, 2005 off subject......Han, I LOVE your signature. ROFLMAO Did you happen to see the satire about finding the book of Moses? Hysterical. If not I could try and find the link and post it in the humor section, it's classic. I know, it's funny. It's from a Red Dwarf episode, a newscast stating the newly found first-page-of-the-bible. I don't know about the satire... Please, if you can find the link? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simonpeter Posted July 13, 2005 Share Posted July 13, 2005 (again, "lesser", not "lessor") Who has the lease contract? Normally spelling errors are ok, but "lessor" look too funny to me... sorry... <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I am famous for my sqelling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted July 13, 2005 Share Posted July 13, 2005 I won't argue with you whether or not Satan's name was allowed because just as within Christianity, various sects of Judaism can't agree either. However, many in the Jewish community laugh at Christians and their evil devil....so do I. BTW..another interesting Jewish piece of info...the Talmud authorizes sex with slave girls of age 3 and older. What a holy people. What's your take on the Kabbalah? Does it contain separate beliefs or is it just a kind of gnostic Judaism? And does it mention Hell/Heaven/Sin/Satan etc? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted July 13, 2005 Share Posted July 13, 2005 I am famous for my sqelling. Ip's okei. I duh it two! It was just funny seing the word that way... sorry guys... usually I don't crack down on spelling, because of my own bad grammar, but it just didn't see fit in that context. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simonpeter Posted July 13, 2005 Share Posted July 13, 2005 I won't argue with you whether or not Satan's name was allowed because just as within Christianity, various sects of Judaism can't agree either. However, many in the Jewish community laugh at Christians and their evil devil....so do I. BTW..another interesting Jewish piece of info...the Talmud authorizes sex with slave girls of age 3 and older. What a holy people. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I didn't know the Talmud had such a thing. I guess what I find hard to understand is why so many exchristians object to the teachings of Jesus. Is is bad to honor the Ten Commandments, to love and serve each others? Does the secular world offer a better way of life? Even if God/Jesus don't exist would following his teachings improve the quality of the human condition? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vixentrox Posted July 13, 2005 Share Posted July 13, 2005 Lesser god? So your admitting there are OTHER gods then? What makes them "lesser"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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