Pi: 3.1415926535897932384626433832795…

[webmdave]

Sent in by Tim B

 

My childhood was a fairly typical one as far as growing up goes. My parents were hard working middle class folks who weren’t particularly religious. For a time, we did attend an Anglican church where I was able to dress up as a camel for the Christmas pageant or go to the annual church picnic for lots of candy and games. My parents told me that when I was confirmed into the church, I was old enough to decide for myself if I wanted to keep going or not. I looked forward to my Confirmation with glee, knowing I could finally sleep in on Sunday mornings and never go to stupid, boring church again. And that’s what I did.

 

Then, a few years later, I went to University to study theater arts (I wanted to be a movie star at the time lol). When I got there I started to have a lot of fun doing drugs, dating girls and partying as hard as I could. One of my friends there was a Christian, and he enjoyed partying as much as I did. We became very good friends and ended up as roommates. We quickly earned the reputation of being the crazy dudes who liked to have a lot of fun – and we did.

 

But of course, his Christianity came up here and there and I began to read the bible a bit, and we would get stoned and have long conversations on god and the meaning of life. To make a long story short, one day I woke up and had a god experience. I felt that god was telling me to stop what I was doing and start to live a godly life. So I went on a truth crusade and basically abandoned all my friends (except my Christian friend) and started over from scratch. I started going to a Pentecostal church in my neighborhood (because they served free food to starving students) and I got a job at a Christian organization. I also got engaged to my friend’s ex-girlfriend (another long story) and almost overnight I was living a very fulfilling charismatic Christian life.

 

Of course I went nuts buying bibles for my family and telling them they were going to hell if they didn’t repent like me. I got very involved in the “Drama Ministry” at church and basically was engulfed in the Christian life with absolutely no non-Christian friends at all. I got married and my wife and I were happy little Christians living to please God in all that we did.

 

This went on for ten years. We have moved twice since attending that church (Pentecostal) and have been active members in two other churches, one being a Christian Missionary Alliance and the most recent being Christian Reformed. We both taught the Alpha bible study program and we both lead small groups. We attended retreats, we were baptized publicly (full immersion and in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Smoke), and we both received the gift of tongues. We were avid prayer group attendees, we helped out around the church with odd jobs, and we loved our friends there. I was very much into studying the word of god and I particularly loved Christian history and the early church fathers.

 

I listened to Hank Haanegraf, Charles Stanley, Ravi Zacharias and a slew of others. I was very much against the prosperity teachings of Kenneth Copeland, Joyce Meyers, Creflo Dollar and the doofus – Benny Hinn (although I did have friends who loved these guys). I was, for all intents and purposes, a Christian Apologist who was eager to tell the world how to get to heaven. My big frustration in life was that I had never “saved” anyone.

 

Then one day, last October (2007), I was on a forum that discussed god vs. everything else. Being the smart godly dude that I was, I enjoyed ranting about the sinful nature of man and the righteousness of the church. I read a post that talked about the bible and the value of Pi. I was intrigued and so I immediately looked up the passage. It was there in 1 Kings 7:23 that my life changed forever.

 

“23Now he made the sea of cast metal ten cubits from brim to brim, circular in form, and its height was five cubits, and thirty cubits in circumference. “ (NASB).

 

When I read it, I felt like there was a glass bubble that surrounded my brain and in an instant, the bubble was shattered into a million pieces. I was literally dumbfounded. I had found an error in the holy, perfect, inerrant word of god!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! In that instant, every argument I had ever had for the reality, perfection and truthfulness of god’s word was destroyed. God made a mistake. Not just a minor spelling mistake or textual mistranslation. This was MAJOR! God’s word said that Pi 3!!??!!.

 

For anyone who is interested, here is a link that explains Pi:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pi

 

The value of Pi is approximately 3.1415926535897932384626433832795…on to infinity. It is an irrational number and mathematicians are still to this day calculating its size – so far it’s decimal translation has never repeated itself.

 

Once the bubble had burst, my eyes were finally opened. “Something like scales fell from my eyes!” 

 

I began to study all about the errors in the bible (which there are MANYMANYMANY!!!). I could not believe how stupid and foolish I was to have believed all this crap, not knowing it was all a lie! How many debates did I have with non-Christians (who I now call humans) about the smallest detail of Christ’s ministry? AARRRRGGHHHHHH!!!!. For the first week I was in utter shock. I told no one – not even my beautiful god-fearing wife. We had a 4 year old and one on the way. My wife was actually 7 months pregnant at the time. How could I tell her??? I would drive past churches and give them the finger and curse at their stupidity. I would curse myself for being such an idiot, and then I would laugh out loud at my new found freedom. I was FREE! Free from dogma. Free from the law. Free from grace. Free from HELL and free from Heaven! Free from ever feeling guilty for thinking a bad thought ever again! Free from having to convince my family that Jesus was the only way to heaven. Free from giving away 10% of my income every week! And most of all, I was free to sleep in on Sunday for the rest of my life!

 

I was going to wait till after the baby was born and after Christmas to tell my wife that she was now unequally yoked to a godless heathen, but my gut was in knots and my head was dizzy with all the “shock and awe” I was experiencing. So about two weeks later, I sat her down to have a bible study. In that study I went through ten pages of errors, inconsistencies and false prophesies in the bible to show her that it was not the inerrant word of god, but a human book that borrowed and stole bits and pieces of other cultures and their gods. At the end of the study, she thought I was insane and told me I needed to see a psychiatrist. Again, I really suck at convincing people to believe the same things I believe.

 

Over the course of the next two weeks, she began to study the bible on her own and really ask the hard questions. She had a lengthy discourse with a pastor friend of ours and was not getting the answers she was looking for. In the end, she came to the realization that the bible wasn’t 100% true and that Jesus was not god. Our marriage was saved, which is a good thing because I really love her and our children.

 

So I called my pastor to tell him that I could no longer direct the Christmas play or lead the drama ministry or lead small group, or believe in anything the bible had to say. We met to have a face to face talk, and I explained very honestly what happened. He was pretty much speechless. He had some words of advice, prayed for me and made plans to meet again. I have not heard from him since, and we have not been back to church since. We still talk to friends who go there and have no animosity towards anyone.

 

I am now free from the indoctrination of the bible, the dogmas and religious head games it plays, and above all the utter foolishness that the Christian bible teaches. I love my family more than ever, and I have a new found love for the human race that I had previously condemned to hell in the name of Jesus. I am truly free. And the value of Pi is NOT 3!

 

http://exchristian.net/testimonies/2008/05...6433832795.html

[Caretaker]

Yea, the Bible saying that \pi = 3 is kinda nutty.

 

But... As a math major, I must say that any decimal representation of pi, whether 3.14, or to 100 digits is merely an approximation. Even 3 is an approximation of \pi. Just not really precise.

 

Of course, there are plenty of other absurdities.....

[ShackledNoMore]

Yep, that very same error was the first biblical error I became aware of. The first one (of many) you find can be a real eye opener when the book itself claims to be inerrant and you've had biblical inerrancy crammed into your head throughout your tenure as a xian.

 

I eventually discussed this very verse with an apologist, and he certainly had no satisfactory response to the nakedly exposed goof. He said stuff like, "the ancient Hebrews would have had no way of accurately determining the value of Pi." True, but an infallible god would (who supposedly inspired the writing of the bible down to every last detail). The funny thing is, in every other context except discussion THIS verse, he was of the camp that every word of the bible was literally accurate. I just don't see how continuing xians can deal with these sorts of inconsistent beliefs after they come to the forefront and are examined.

[HuaiDan]

But you know God can curve space time and all and in God's perfect universe pi is 3 and the evil Devil makes pi here on earth such an irrational number

[ShackledNoMore]

But you know God can curve space time and all and in God's perfect universe pi is 3 and the evil Devil makes pi here on earth such an irrational number

Maybe you're on to something there, HauiDan... Pi is irrational, god is irrational, therefore, Pi != Pi! Q.E.D.

[MathGeek]

This testimony is maybe one of the best I've read in a while.

 

I have asked Christians that if the Bible is supposed to be the basis of all wisdom and understanding for this dimension of existence, then why didn't God have his chosen ones publish a scientific text or a mathematical text for us that are interested in such ideas? Why aren't the Hebrews known for making any significant mathematical discoveries of their own? To me, if the Hebrews are God's chosen people, then their mark on the world should be widespread in terms of technological and engineering and architectural advancemnt. I know they had the Temple, I know they had a system of government and collecting taxes, I know that they had an advanced system of religion. These are traits for any well-developed, rather advanced society prior to the modern era. If the Hebrews were God's chosen people, why hasn't the world been affected by anything they've done mathematically and scientifically?

[Guest eejay]

Great post. I am not really mathematically inclined so that error didn't really stand out to me. But there are so many errors, and contadictions, it drives me nuts that x-tians refuse to see them. They will sit there and argue with you till you're blue in the face and want to slap some sense into them. Funny, how I too have found myself flipping the bird at churches while driving by, especially when the parking lots are full. Like I just know what kind of bullshit is being spewed inside. I don't and never will understand how grown up human beings can remain blinded all their lives, while a child, like Madame's kid, said it sounded made up. I had a hard time buying into such things as a child also, but wasn't given the freedom to make my own decisions. Of course I immediately rebelled when I was old enough. Of course my home life during my teens was akin to a full blown war. I am a strong willed person, and no amount of force would change me into a believer. Once you have been exposed to the truth I don't think there's any way you could get drawn back into the cult.

[LordofGondor]

This error never really stood out for me. '30 cubits' might just as well have meant 'about 30 cubits'.

 

Although, that's not to say 31.4 cubits would be that difficult to measure. Still doesn't seem very significant to me.

 

Good post anyway.

[Caretaker]

For some odd reason, I thought this graphic would be somewhat relavent:

 

[Caretaker]

For some odd reason, I thought this graphic would be somewhat relavent:

 

[Ouroboros]

And e says: "be natural".

[jdog]

<span style="font-style:italic;">Sent in by Tim B</span>

 

Of course I went nuts buying bibles for my family and telling them they were going to hell if they didn’t repent like me.....

 

http://exchristian.net/testimonies/2008/05...6433832795.html

 

I cringe because this is similar to me, I bought family bibles and gave them the whole salvation spiel, and periodically gave them bible tracts just in case their 'hearts were hardened' the first time they had heard the message.

The other day I phoned my sister and told her that I no longer believe the bible and that I have left christianity, the church, everything, and asked her to forgive me for my narrow mindedness and for being so pushy, she was so kind and understanding and understood why I did what I did and believes it is a kind of cult and brainwashing I was part of. Her words.

My sister has never been rude to me about the religion and she always said that I was entitled to believe what I wanted but never agreed with it herself.

 

So anyhow she said that I sounded really different on the phone, like I did a few years back, in fact she said 'you're back' and was glad that she could talk with me again like a 'normal' person. I knew what she meant.

 

Anyhow I like the posts, and I didn't know about the pi thing.

[dunany77]

The other day I phoned my sister and told her that I no longer believe the bible and that I have left christianity, the church, everything, and asked her to forgive me for my narrow mindedness and for being so pushy, she was so kind and understanding and understood why I did what I did and believes it is a kind of cult and brainwashing I was part of.

 

 

My sister was one of the first people I told when I abandoned chritianity, because of all my family members, she's the one who I had the deepest conversations about god with and she's the one who got the full force of my evangelism. I called her and apologized for all the crap I told her too. She was happy that I wasn't so judgmental about people anymore and we had a good laugh about it. The funny thing is, since my wife and I have stopped going to church, my sister and my brother have both started taking their families to church. They aren't bible believers of fundamental, they just want to take their children to a family friendly place once a week and hear a positive message. Their churches and very liberal and don't preach fire and brimstone or biblical inerrancy at all. If I was still a xtian I would have praised god for "putting the need in their hearts to get closer to god" and I would have prayed that they find a more spirit filled church to get the truth about jesus. Oh the crap I believed!

 

Its funny to reread my testimony - its like I'm reading about someone else!

 

[Guest eejay]

<span style="font-style:italic;">Sent in by Tim B</span>

 

Of course I went nuts buying bibles for my family and telling them they were going to hell if they didn’t repent like me.....

 

http://exchristian.net/testimonies/2008/05...6433832795.html

 

I cringe because this is similar to me, I bought family bibles and gave them the whole salvation spiel, and periodically gave them bible tracts just in case their 'hearts were hardened' the first time they had heard the message.

The other day I phoned my sister and told her that I no longer believe the bible and that I have left christianity, the church, everything, and asked her to forgive me for my narrow mindedness and for being so pushy, she was so kind and understanding and understood why I did what I did and believes it is a kind of cult and brainwashing I was part of. Her words.

My sister has never been rude to me about the religion and she always said that I was entitled to believe what I wanted but never agreed with it herself.

 

So anyhow she said that I sounded really different on the phone, like I did a few years back, in fact she said 'you're back' and was glad that she could talk with me again like a 'normal' person. I knew what she meant.

 

Anyhow I like the posts, and I didn't know about the pi thing.

Welcome back!

[dunany77]

This error never really stood out for me. '30 cubits' might just as well have meant 'about 30 cubits'.

 

Although, that's not to say 31.4 cubits would be that difficult to measure. Still doesn't seem very significant to me.

 

Good post anyway.

 

When I was researching the Pi issue, I looked at both sides of the argument and found that not one single christian site could admit that there was a mistake. All of them came up with very elaborate and extra-biblical explanations to force the passage to say that a bowl with a circumference of 30 and a diameter of 10 was indeed accurate. The more I read their excuses the more my eyes opened up to the possibility that the error was indeed real and the book was written by man and not the "holy-smoke" working through man.

 

This web page above all answered the Pi question for me hands down, and I have yet to find a better argument for the obvious biblical error: http://www.geocities.com/paulntobin/math.html

 

If the the circumference was 30 cubits "and a bit" or the diameter was 9 1/2 cubits, I'm not sure if I would have had the guts to research it to find out for myself. What I found was that other cultures had better accuracy with Pi prior to the writing of the OT, so there was no help for the Hebrews there. My final conclusion was that either the writer of I Kings 7:23-26 was an idiot and rounded down to 30 cubits, or the "Molten Sea" was never built and the whole story was made up. I don't care anymore which one it is because it no longer matters.

 

All I know is that I am smarter than God and that makes me feel all fuzzy and warm inside!

[dunany77]

This testimony is maybe one of the best I've read in a while.

 

I have asked Christians that if the Bible is supposed to be the basis of all wisdom and understanding for this dimension of existence, then why didn't God have his chosen ones publish a scientific text or a mathematical text for us that are interested in such ideas? Why aren't the Hebrews known for making any significant mathematical discoveries of their own? To me, if the Hebrews are God's chosen people, then their mark on the world should be widespread in terms of technological and engineering and architectural advancemnt. I know they had the Temple, I know they had a system of government and collecting taxes, I know that they had an advanced system of religion. These are traits for any well-developed, rather advanced society prior to the modern era. If the Hebrews were God's chosen people, why hasn't the world been affected by anything they've done mathematically and scientifically?

 

Hey MathGeek, I have been told time and again that the bible isn't a scientific book and that god only revealed things that the ancients could comprehend. But the OT has many scientific concepts like animal classification and ship building which require a certain amount of observation and logical understanding. When it says that rabbits chew their cud and big boats made of wood can carry large populations of animals, let alone stand up under their own weight, science steps in and proves it to be wrong. The science was true then as it is now regardless of who could understand it.

 

The fact that the bible proves to be mistaken on issues that can be tested and proven totally invalidates the supernatural events that cannot be tested or proven. Once the credibility is taken away, it's just paper and ink. What a silly god.

[MathGeek]

Here are some resources to shed light on Pi in the Bible...

 

http://www-groups.dcs.st-and.ac.uk/~histor...h_the_ages.html

http://www.abarim-publications.com/Bible_C..._The_Bible.html

http://www.purplemath.com/modules/bibleval.htm

http://www.uwgb.edu/DutchS/pseudosc/pibible.htm

http://www.christiancourier.com/articles/r...i_a_bible_error

[Caretaker]

And e says: "be natural".

Sorry Hans, but e isn't natural either....

 

Natural numbers are the following set

 

{0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, ... }

 

Although some people leave 0 out.

 

Now, of those three, i is the only algebraic number.

 

*Algebraic means that it is the root to some polynomial function with rational coefficients.

[Ouroboros]

And e says: "be natural".

Sorry Hans, but e isn't natural either....

 

"Why is e natural?": http://www.komal.hu/cikkek/2004-ang/e.e.shtml

 

Also called, the Natural Logarithm, formerly known as the hyperbolic logarithm: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_logarithm

 

http://mathworld.wolfram.com/NaturalLogarithm.html

 

etc...

 

The joke was based on the name it has achieved: the natural logarithm. Not my fault they call it that.

[Caretaker]

And e says: "be natural".

Sorry Hans, but e isn't natural either....

 

"Why is e natural?": http://www.komal.hu/cikkek/2004-ang/e.e.shtml

 

Also called, the Natural Logarithm, formerly known as the hyperbolic logarithm: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_logarithm

 

http://mathworld.wolfram.com/NaturalLogarithm.html

 

etc...

 

The joke was based on the name it has achieved: the natural logarithm. Not my fault they call it that.

 

 

/me slaps head

 

Shoot, yeah, it's the base for natural logarithm, but I was referring to a different definition of natural.

 

Just a case of a word having more than one meaning... in mathematics of all places. Natural Logaritm refers to a logarithm function that has base e, so in this case, the term 'natural' refers to the function.

 

When using 'natural' to refer to a number, however, it refers to the first set of numbers we all learn in kindergarten/first grade.

[ShackledNoMore]

This next post follows the tangent over the top off topic, but for continuity, I suppose I can get away with posting this link to another thread.

[Skiergirl24]

Great post. I am not really mathematically inclined so that error didn't really stand out to me. But there are so many errors, and contadictions, it drives me nuts that x-tians refuse to see them. They will sit there and argue with you till you're blue in the face and want to slap some sense into them. Funny, how I too have found myself flipping the bird at churches while driving by, especially when the parking lots are full. Like I just know what kind of bullshit is being spewed inside. I don't and never will understand how grown up human beings can remain blinded all their lives, while a child, like Madame's kid, said it sounded made up. I had a hard time buying into such things as a child also, but wasn't given the freedom to make my own decisions. Of course I immediately rebelled when I was old enough. Of course my home life during my teens was akin to a full blown war. I am a strong willed person, and no amount of force would change me into a believer. Once you have been exposed to the truth I don't think there's any way you could get drawn back into the cult.

 

 

I thought I was the only one who did that. I was thinking there was somehting wrong with my anger because every time I drive by a church I flip the bird and mutter FUCK YOU. hahaha