The Possibility of an Infinite Sin?

[Guest FreestyleFred]

Note from the start: This post is made from a Christian perspective.

I thought of a new concept the other day. I posted it on Christian Teen Forums to see different insights, and I now want to post it here to see what I get. I gotta head to bed because I have work in the morning, so I am going to quickly just copy and past my post from there to here:

 

The first thing I am going to start this thread of with is: If you don't understand what this thread is about, then don't post in it! With that said, I shall move on:

I am a constant ponderer, as many of you know, and I thought of the possibility of a new idea. I hope that I can get some intelligent responses in this thread that may give me a little more insight and understanding. I may be wrong, but I am still going to throw this idea out there.

 

First I must place out the concept of an infinite time within time. As with physical objects within space, moments in time can continuously be broken down into smaller increments. A day can be broken down into hours, that into minutes, that into seconds, etc. This breakdown can go on for all eternity, far beyond the measurable capability of humans.

Now, a sin is within a moment of time and that moment of time can infinitely get smaller. A sin always has the same strength, so within this infinite shrink of time it would remain the same.

The main idea is that if one moment in time goes for all time, continuously getting shorter, but the sin does not get "better", then that sin lives on forever. Meaning, the person who committed this sin within one moment would actually be sinning for all eternity. (obviously excluding if the sinner is forgiven of the sin)

 

Hopefully you can understand what I am trying to say here, lol. It was hard to put this idea into words, so I am not sure if I worded it well. Please give me any insights that you may have and any errors you may find within this idea.

[Lunar Shadow]

Note from the start: This post is made from a Christian perspective.

I thought of a new concept the other day. I posted it on Christian Teen Forums to see different insights, and I now want to post it here to see what I get. I gotta head to bed because I have work in the morning, so I am going to quickly just copy and past my post from there to here:

 

The first thing I am going to start this thread of with is: If you don't understand what this thread is about, then don't post in it! With that said, I shall move on:

I am a constant ponderer, as many of you know, and I thought of the possibility of a new idea. I hope that I can get some intelligent responses in this thread that may give me a little more insight and understanding. I may be wrong, but I am still going to throw this idea out there.

 

First I must place out the concept of an infinite time within time. As with physical objects within space, moments in time can continuously be broken down into smaller increments. A day can be broken down into hours, that into minutes, that into seconds, etc. This breakdown can go on for all eternity, far beyond the measurable capability of humans.

Now, a sin is within a moment of time and that moment of time can infinitely get smaller. A sin always has the same strength, so within this infinite shrink of time it would remain the same.

The main idea is that if one moment in time goes for all time, continuously getting shorter, but the sin does not get "better", then that sin lives on forever. Meaning, the person who committed this sin within one moment would actually be sinning for all eternity. (obviously excluding if the sinner is forgiven of the sin)

 

Hopefully you can understand what I am trying to say here, lol. It was hard to put this idea into words, so I am not sure if I worded it well. Please give me any insights that you may have and any errors you may find within this idea.

 

My my this thread looks familiar oh yeah I saw it on chrisitanteenforums

 

You already have my thoughts on the matter Fred, have fun

[John]

Uh, this is totally incoherent.

[Isak The Newt]

Well thought, but it doesnt mean the sin multiplies, it is still one sin, its just broken down into smaller segments of time. But if you did this from a christian perspective correct? then how could you possible agree with the possibilty of infinite? in a christian perspective the universe isnt infinite, its just the sun, our flat earth, heaven, and hell... better to refer to numbers, like 1...2...3...4...5...6...7...8...9......... continues.. lol, so in "invictus"'s terms... you are stupid, therefore your argument is "mute" j/k you arent stupid, this is actually something to ponder

[Vixentrox]

Your starting from the suppostion that there is "sin". Then you have to define what exactly sin is. Xtians don't always agree on what constitutes a sin. Wearing a condom could be considered a sin by Catholics but not by others. Some view women wearing pants a sin, others don't. Then not only do you have to define what constitutes a sin, you have to prove that whatever answer you come up with is correct and in the correct faith. Eating cows in India I think is considered a sin. Eating pork by a muslim is a sin. Obviously, whatever you decide, someone will disagree with you.

[Druid]

A sort of Riemann Sin kinda thing? Not sure what is meant by the infintesimal period of time lasting forever as mathematically it lasts for no amount of time.

[John]

Meaning, the person who committed this sin within one moment would actually be sinning for all eternity.

 

Eternity is time without end. You are simply breaking down time from a day to hours to minutes to seconds, etc. Let’s suppose I sinned for a second. That would mean I sinned for a second (this isn’t difficult to understand).

[Caretaker]

I suppose you are dealing with the Continuum. This is basically the property of anything that can be put into correspondence with a number line. Of course, the real numbers is a dense set. That is, you can pick any two reals and you will always have a real number between those two numbers. Interestingly enough, you can find that there are just as many real numbers between 0 and 1 as there are between -infinity and +infinity.

 

You can also infinitely divide a physical distance. Distance is measured using real numbers too. So if you were to drive a mile, does that mean you are driving an infinite distance?

 

Now when you talk about distance, you have to work with defined units. In working with any measurement like this, you need to identify that which is 1. Now extending a number line indefinitely in both directions along a path which you drive, you will find two places on that line that bound where you have driven. Granted that you can infinitely divide that distance, you still have only driven a finite distance, simply because you started at point A without stepping back to any point behind A and you did not pass point B. Basically, you don't measure distance by how many points you occupied during the trip, but by the difference in the boundary points.

 

Same thing goes with time.

 

BTW, this is beginning to dig into Calculus. Have you taken Calculus?

[Fweethawt]

Note from the start: This post is made from a Christian perspective.

I thought of a new concept the other day. I posted it on Christian Teen Forums to see different insights, and I now want to post it here to see what I get. I gotta head to bed because I have work in the morning, so I am going to quickly just copy and past my post from there to here:

 

The first thing I am going to start this thread of with is: If you don't understand what this thread is about, then don't post in it! With that said, I shall move on:

I am a constant ponderer, as many of you know, and I thought of the possibility of a new idea. I hope that I can get some intelligent responses in this thread that may give me a little more insight and understanding. I may be wrong, but I am still going to throw this idea out there.

 

First I must place out the concept of an infinite time within time. As with physical objects within space, moments in time can continuously be broken down into smaller increments. A day can be broken down into hours, that into minutes, that into seconds, etc. This breakdown can go on for all eternity, far beyond the measurable capability of humans.

Now, a sin is within a moment of time and that moment of time can infinitely get smaller. A sin always has the same strength, so within this infinite shrink of time it would remain the same.

The main idea is that if one moment in time goes for all time, continuously getting shorter, but the sin does not get "better", then that sin lives on forever. Meaning, the person who committed this sin within one moment would actually be sinning for all eternity. (obviously excluding if the sinner is forgiven of the sin)

 

Hopefully you can understand what I am trying to say here, lol. It was hard to put this idea into words, so I am not sure if I worded it well. Please give me any insights that you may have and any errors you may find within this idea.

 

 

A person starved to death while you wrote this.

An elderly person broke into tears of lonliness while you wrote this.

A child was abused while you wrote this.

A woman was beaten or killed by her husband while you wrote this.

A homosexual was beaten or killed while you wrote this.

A white man killed a black man while you wrote this.

A black man killed a white man while you wrote this.

Someone said a prayer asking that these things wouldn't happen when you wrote this.

 

The list goes on and on.........

 

I'd say that whatever point you're trying to make here is quite insignificant to what is actually happening in the real world.

 

 

I am a constant ponderer, as many of you know, and I thought of the possibility of a new idea.

It's nice that you actually thought that a new idea is possible. There may be some hope for you yet. How 'bout coming up with a solution to one of those things that happened while you wrote out your starting post?

[Vixentrox]

Here's a hint though, prayer won't work to solve any of those problems.

[Fweethawt]

Here's a hint though, prayer won't work to solve any of those problems.

Neither will skateboarding.

[Vixentrox]

Neither will skateboarding.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Well, maybe skateboarding could amuse an elderly person for a while.....

[Caretaker]

Now now, Fwee and Vix.... I am sure the same things happened in the same time you made those posts.

 

If the kid (Sorry if I am referring to you in the third person, Fred) wants to discuss this, I am all for it.

[Vixentrox]

Yep, I'm sure they did. But then I don't have an imaginary friend who is supposedly all powerful and could stop these things. I did make a post earlier about it's futility when you can't even define what sin is.

[Fweethawt]

Now now, Fwee and Vix.... I am sure the same things happened in the same time you made those posts.

 

If the kid (Sorry if I am referring to you in the third person, Fred) wants to discuss this, I am all for it.

 

You're right, Khan. Excuse my ignorance in recognizing the absurdity in finding a solution to the things that I mentioned. The importance of figuring out whether or not a sin is still a sin if it's commited over a period of a split second or a year, could eventually lead into furthering human progress.

 

I apologize for intruding. I wouldn't want to stand in the way of the next wave of apologetics.

 

Carry on.

[Thurisaz]

Eternity is time without end. You are simply breaking down time from a day to hours to minutes to seconds, etc. Let’s suppose I sinned for a second. That would mean I sinned for a second (this isn’t difficult to understand).

 

Exactly. You can break down a given time interval into an infinity of pieces, but the total amount of time is still very limited. Just like you can continue the number 0.9999999... forever, it gets infinitely long (at least as long as you use the decimal system) but it's still less than 1.

[Cerise]

Meaning, the person who committed this sin within one moment would actually be sinning for all eternity.

 

 

Not to be a downer or anything but...so what? Why is this important? What is the purpose behind determining the time structure of sin?

[Asimov]

Either on this thread or the one in CTF, I'd like fred to answer my question I posed:

 

Interesting...but then that would also apply for every GOOD thing that we've done in our lives as well, if this is true.

 

Considering that if any sinful act we've done is infinite because it occurs as you've described it, also consider that even one good act that we've done is also infinite because it occurs as you've described it.

 

Since we're dealing with 2 opposing infinites, what would happen then?

 

Good point, and you are right-it would be the same for good deeds. But of course, in Biblical terms:

"Salvation is not a reward for the good things we have done, so none of us can boast about it."-Ephesians 2:9

So you would be right, but it would have no effect upon whether we go to Heaven or Hell.

 

So what is salvation then? If our good deeds are irrelevant to salvation, then why are our bad deeds relevant?

[Caretaker]

Exactly. You can break down a given time interval into an infinity of pieces, but the total amount of time is still very limited. Just like you can continue the number 0.9999999... forever, it gets infinitely long (at least as long as you use the decimal system) but it's still less than 1.

Actually, the infinite sequence of digits 0.9999999999999........... is considered to be equal to 1, just as 0.333333333333333......... is 1/3.

 

Now, this sequence: 0.9, 0.99, 0.999, 0.9999, 0.99999 does not contain 1, but it approaches 1.

 

At least that is how it is here in Amerika.

[Thurisaz]

Actually, the infinite sequence of digits 0.9999999999999........... is considered to be equal to 1, just as 0.333333333333333......... is 1/3.

 

Now, this sequence: 0.9, 0.99, 0.999, 0.9999, 0.99999 does not contain 1, but it approaches 1.

 

At least that is how it is here in Amerika.

 

Aaah, my bad. Indeed.

 

1/9 = 0.1111111...

 

so 0.9999999... = 9/9 = 1

 

Fun with maths

[Ouroboros]

This is the arrow that never hits the tree, and the rabbit that never catches up with the turtle.

 

It also mean, every good act is infinite.

 

Actually, I read some book by someone, somewhere, that in every moment of our day, we live thousands of infinites, but the fact that each second has an infinite between the ticks.

 

So, maybe we are the gods?

 

Could this also mean that when we are unhappy/depressed it's already the infinte punishment for our sins?

 

Beside (like someone said in this thread), what is sin? What constitutes a sin? Something that is a sin to me, maybe is not to you? Do we agree if smoking, drinking, thinking dirty thoughts, driving an SUV, watching TV, drinking coffee, or just have short temper are considered sins?

[BlueGiant]

Hey, go easy on the kid here, he is at least going with something new, or at least along an argument tack that I have not seen 'round these parts. Kind of refreshing.

 

Now, just a warning, FreestyleFred, while asking questions, you may ask the "wrong" questions and end up with guys like us and many Jesuits. That asside, good to see that you are at least trying to come up with something unique.

 

And even better, you appear to be willing to be wrong. Admirable.

 

 

For the sake of argument (and only for the sake of it, as I do not believe in inherent sin anymore), assume that a quantifiable sin exists.

 

Ok, variation on Zeno's Motion Paradoxes for the time subdivision (it is in fact possible that time may actually be discritized, like electron energy levels, and a lot of things in quantum, along with space, if certain theories pan out) so we will assume a time continum, that no smallest unit of time exists.

 

Ok, now you state that sin has all the same strength. Is this an independent strength? What I am asking is that is the strength of sin like the mass of an object, like a ball of clay that is rolled out, or is it related to another quantity? (I guess this could be termed as Sin-Value Uniformity?)

 

It looks like the sin's value from your argument is that it's strength is independent of the time taken to commit it, so that in an instantaneous sin, the sin to time ratio would be infinite.

 

The step where you go for "one moment in time goes for all time" seems to be a flaw in logic. You are talking about a finite, in fact potententially infintessimal amount of time, stating that there is, in fact, time outside of this. By this definition, the sin cannot go for all time, as the sin is still confined to the moment (IF my understanding of your argument is correct). It is the principle that a subset of something cannot be the set unless the subset is indeed the set itself.

 

Why are you trying to arrive at infinite sin for even a momentary act? Is this to argue that we all need redemption (most likely), or just plain interesting?

 

This does have a couple of implications either way. For one, if sin were to transform to something infinite, then, we indeed have become as gods ourselves, being finite beings that have created something infinite (I will assume that you do not believe that God creates sin), and in fact have made something that God cannot make. In doing so, our effects become infinite, and so proof of our existance, and one could possibly argue that our own existance would become infinite, that ultimately we could not cease to be, as our echos would last for an infinite time, i.e. eternally. Not only that but as we created that we would, in our own way become deimurges, creating as is our nature (since, by general Christian theology, man has a sinful nature). This provides a way to suggest that we are indeed as powerful as God. Interesting potential conclusion, no.

 

First, though, clarifications are needed: what exactly is the "sin" that we are trying to quantify here? Second, is its strength independent of time? Lastly, how do you intend to go from a finite quantity to an infinite one?

 

Glad you are boucing ideas here. I am interested in your responses, if, for nothing else, to see something new.

[Fweethawt]

Okay. I'll play along here a bit...

 

If I'm understanding what everyone is trying to say here, a sin, no matter how great or how slight it is, has an effect that lasts throughout eternity. Correct?

 

On the same note, one can argue that a sin committed at any point in time lasts no longer than the instant that it took to commit it due to the fact that no matter what point in time it happened, that very instant of time remains directly in the center of eternity for all of eternity.

 

Now, after writing that, I think I've just convinced myself of the irrelevance of time and the relevance of the issues that I mentioned earlier.

 

I hope I've stayed on topic here.

[Casey]

The main idea is that if one moment in time goes for all time, continuously getting shorter, but the sin does not get "better", then that sin lives on forever. Meaning, the person who committed this sin within one moment would actually be sinning for all eternity. (obviously excluding if the sinner is forgiven of the sin)

 

OK, but from the fundamentalist christian point of view (Jack Chick et al) we have this: You can spend your whole life as an absolute rotter, committing an infinite variety of "sins", many of which are better termed heinous crimes. You can in fact live such an evil life that your execution would be a public benefaction, and yet, if on your deathbed or in a richly deserved condemned cell, you repent, accept Jesus Christ etc, you will go to heaven. (A certain Jeffery Dahmer springs to mind).

 

On the other hand, you can spend your life as a good person, work hard, pay your taxes and be an all-round good citizen. All right, granted you might get drunk now and then, (one would hope with good cause), sow some wild oats when young, fornicate here and there and commit a few other things that are accounted "sins". Nonetheless if one looked at your life as one would look at a column of postive and negative integers and took the sum thereof, the good things would outnumber the bad. In other words the sum would be postive.

 

Regardless of the sum being positive, we are told by fundamentalists that if you fail to accept Christ etc at some point in your life, you will go to hell, whereas the fellow whose life added to nothing but a huge negative, will spend eternity in heaven, presumably gloating as he watches you load the devil's heavy Mortars all day long, or perform whatever Hard Labour you've been sentenced to.

 

To make matters worse, those who believe in Predestination would have it that this is pre-ordained; ie unless you are one of the Elect you will not be saved, and in fact cannot be saved. Thus we have a God who can add a string of large negatives with few if any positives and obtain a positive, and who can also add a string of positives with but few negatives and still obtain a negative.

 

Somehow I don't think this thread has so much to do with Calculus, Riemann Sums etc, as it has to do with simple Arithmetic. And when it comes to simple Arithmetic, your God (if I may say so Fred), uses some strange means of Addition indeed.

Casey

[Guest FreestyleFred]

Your starting from the suppostion that there is "sin". Then you have to define what exactly sin is. Xtians don't always agree on what constitutes a sin. Wearing a condom could be considered a sin by Catholics but not by others. Some view women wearing pants a sin, others don't. Then not only do you have to define what constitutes a sin, you have to prove that whatever answer you come up with is correct and in the correct faith. Eating cows in India I think is considered a sin. Eating pork by a muslim is a sin. Obviously, whatever you decide, someone will disagree with you.

Yes, I did start with that supposition and I stated at the beginning of the thread "This post is made from a Christian perspective"

 

Eternity is time without end. You are simply breaking down time from a day to hours to minutes to seconds, etc. Let’s suppose I sinned for a second. That would mean I sinned for a second (this isn’t difficult to understand).

Sorry about that, I worded my statements wrong. I basically was trying to say an infinite sin within a finite amount of time.

 

BTW, this is beginning to dig into Calculus. Have you taken Calculus?

No, as many people will eventually figure out, I am not the most amazing at Math. I never ended up taking Calculus.

 

A person starved to death while you wrote this.

An elderly person broke into tears of lonliness while you wrote this.

A child was abused while you wrote this.

A woman was beaten or killed by her husband while you wrote this.

A homosexual was beaten or killed while you wrote this.

A white man killed a black man while you wrote this.

A black man killed a white man while you wrote this.

Someone said a prayer asking that these things wouldn't happen when you wrote this.

 

The list goes on and on.........

 

I'd say that whatever point you're trying to make here is quite insignificant to what is actually happening in the real world.

It's nice that you actually thought that a new idea is possible. There may be some hope for you yet. How 'bout coming up with a solution to one of those things that happened while you wrote out your starting post?

Well, this post made absolutely no positive effect upon this thread. You are simply attacking me, trying to insinuate that I don't care about those problems and using the same flippin' argument as in the "miracles" thread; the argument of "Well, if God is so perfect, why does He let this happen." Well, you must know that this thread is not to prove or disprove the Christian Faith or the existence of God.

Tell me, why are you posting in this thread? Why aren't you out stopping these problems?

A person starved to death while you wrote this. - Why aren't you out feeding a starving person?

An elderly person broke into tears of lonliness while you wrote this. - Why aren't you out visiting an elderly person?

A child was abused while you wrote this. - Why aren't you out preventing child abuse?

A woman was beaten or killed by her husband while you wrote this. - Why aren't you out fighting against woman abuse?

A homosexual was beaten or killed while you wrote this. - Why aren't you out protecting a homosexual?

A white man killed a black man while you wrote this. - Why aren't you out working to do away with racism?

A black man killed a white man while you wrote this. - Same thing as above, why aren't you forming groups against racism?

You are telling me that I am entirely in the wrong because I posted a thread trying to get some new insight on a philosophical idea. You posted this in this thread without any basis but to simply try and make me look like I don't care. But wait a minute, you are asking me why I am trying to figure out how to fix these problems, but what are you doing? By your thinking, you shouldn't even be on this forum, you should be out fixing these problems at this very moment! There is a word for this...hmm...hypocrite?

 

I will reply to the rest later on, I just a tad upset about the above. Thanks for all the intelligent insights, I will respond to all the questions directed towards me later. Thank you to those who have shown me with respect and actually have considered my idea without going entirely off the topic at hand and trying to make me (and my God) look like the bad guys.