Why Do You Remain A Christian?

[centauri]

To Cents --

Does God predestine? Yes, in some reguards. He knows everything as well as causes everything to happen, or allows things to happen, but for what purpose? To bring us to Himself. Acts 17:26-27 as we were created good Ecc 7:29 and in John 3:19-21 it is said that we make the decision to separate ourselves from the light.

If God predestines anything, which you've acknowledged that he does, then there is no way to know the degree to which that happens.

You can claim he only does it in "some regards" but you have no way to know when something has been predestined by God or if it was a random human choice.

The Bible says that God brings glory to himself by working things according to his will.

That's the purpose of his sovereign power.

The clay pots have no right to question how the potter makes and uses them.

 

Can you show me one passage that says God threw someone in hell though he wanted to serve Christ?

Matt 25:41-46 states that failure to do works of charity, even if someone calls Jesus their Lord, will result in eternal punishment.

In other words, they will be thrown in hell.

 

Concerning the 2 choices I went quite long a few replies back reguarding that.

 

Gods work being perfect? There are different levels of perfection and holiness, just like professionals. All humans were created good, with no evil, but still able to disobey. Perfect does not mean the inability to choose.

Well, you're now diluting the word perfect to mean "sort of perfect".

Perfect means without flaw.

By definition, a perfect work cannot make an imperfect decision.

It cannot disobey regardless of how much choice it has to do otherwise.

As soon as it does, it shows that it wasn't made perfect to begin with.

In order to still be classifed as a perfect work, all choices would have to be equally good and acceptable to God.

 

You are right, direct sin is not imperfection, but rebellion. However, indirect sin, imperfection, was the result of direct sin.

Would you please provide an example of "direct sin" vs. "indirect sin".

Regardless of how many ways you try to define sin or how much ability to choose you want to assume exists in a created work, there is no way to disconnect the work from the creator of that work.

This is the problem that Christian theologians can't resolve.

They assume evil spawned itself and crept into the creation via some sort of spontaneous generation.

In the end, evil must emerge from the same source that created all things.

Isa 45:7 even states that God created evil, but Christians deny it.

[MrsRoper]

I'm still learning Strangerese (that weird combination of "Christianese" and "refusal to use spellcheck"), but what the fuck is "biblicak"?

 

And it's hilarious that Stranger thinks he has the faintest idea what ANYTHING in his Bible says or means, or even that his Bible is anything like the inspired dictation much less the word of a living, breathing God. But hey, that's Christians for ya.... the ability to hold totally dichotomous and dissonant beliefs even in the face of complete and utter refutation is treasured, prized, and even cultivated by believers. I never saw that as clearly as I do now.

 

It was a typo. The correct spelling is biblicock.

[midniterider]

Only one thing to say my friend. the Christian doctrine on once saved always saved is not biblicak. The use of the word belief in the gospels are not defined as a one time belief, but a continuence of that belief and living according to such. Sometimes my friend our English translations fail us in understanding. Cits was pointing this out to me a while back. I think I see his point now more than ever before. Other than that buddy, as we defined the definition of free will and agreed, you got it. Hands down, your presistence paid off. Perhaps we still see things different but you made your case

 

The gospels are baloney. The whole bible is baloney.

[midniterider]

I'm still learning Strangerese (that weird combination of "Christianese" and "refusal to use spellcheck"), but what the fuck is "biblicak"?

 

And it's hilarious that Stranger thinks he has the faintest idea what ANYTHING in his Bible says or means, or even that his Bible is anything like the inspired dictation much less the word of a living, breathing God. But hey, that's Christians for ya.... the ability to hold totally dichotomous and dissonant beliefs even in the face of complete and utter refutation is treasured, prized, and even cultivated by believers. I never saw that as clearly as I do now.

 

It was a typo. The correct spelling is biblicock.

 

It's that thing they are always trying to shove down people's throats...lol

[Spectrox]

 

If you are a literalist, how old do you think the Earth is?

 

When did Adam and Eve chat with the talking snake?

 

Mark 16 states that a true believer can cast out demons and drink poison and live to tell the tale - have you done any of these things lately?

 

Stranger wrote:

 

to Spectrex --

 

in researching James 5:15 I have learned that healings, drinking poisens, ect is all done only when it is the will of God and not outside His will, and we know the will of God by being guided by His holy spirit.

 

My reply:

I asked 3 questions and you only gave a response to one of them which btw was a pathetic non-answer. If you're unwilling to admit you have not done any of the things described in Mark 16, have you seen anyone else perform these extraordinary feats? If not why not? Why would you believe these fanciful claims without evidence?

 

Why did you not answer my other 2 questions? They were fairly straightforward.

[the stranger]

Sorry Spectrox, right now I am on a real computor, but the phone I usualy use is beyond out of date as well as busted. It was one of the first to have limited internet ( old Samsung ) so it's not even possible to read my replies as I am typing with my busted touch screen board. Point being, it is difficult so certainly I will miss many things as my memory I wish was better, but let me try to get to a few right now.

 

If you are a literalist, how old do you think the Earth is?

Standard believe of 7,000 to 10,000 years.

 

When did Adam and Eve chat with the talking snake?

After being created and shortly before the fall.

 

Mark 16 states that a true believer can cast out demons and drink poison and live to tell the tale - have you done any of these things lately?

I cannot say I have. I believe small miracles happen everyday, as well as big ones, but all miracles can be explained away with a doubter's eye. These things recorded in the bible were done so because these things were not everyday events, and I am sure many Christians lived than and live today that will never see these miracles, but the miracle of a transformed life is the biggest of all.

 

Evidense is all in the eyes of the beholder. You know the stories. The Israelites seen the miracles but still denied and would not accept any self testamony of the kind. I believe the same happens today. My uncle believes it was an angel who kept him alive durring a bad wreck, but who can prove it. There is no way I could change your mind, and I believe the same is true for me based on what I have seen and experienced in my own life. Different than what you are pointing out? Yes. But just the same, miracles to me.

 

 

It's that thing they are always trying to shove down people's throats...lol

Also the most bought book in history and by all rights, most popular and second to none.

 

The gospels are baloney. The whole bible is baloney.

One could say the same about most things we hear and even see. We must for ourselves decide truth from fiction. With God, there is security, without, everything is chance.

 

If God predestines anything, which you've acknowledged that he does, then there is no way to know the degree to which that happens.

You can claim he only does it in "some regards" but you have no way to know when something has been predestined by God or if it was a random human choice.

The Bible says that God brings glory to himself by working things according to his will.

That's the purpose of his sovereign power.

The clay pots have no right to question how the potter makes and uses them.

 

I agree Cents, we do not. However, other than what I define as misunderstood scripture, I do not know of any time God forced any one to choose against Him or for Him, though certainly He allowed or created circumstances that helped us make the decisions we have. I believe this is why I am a Christian today, but knowing God wants all to prosper with Him and takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked, and no evedense of God making us turn against Him (With the exception of a wrong view on the hardening of hearts) that I know of.

Quote

 

Can you show me one passage that says God threw someone in hell though he wanted to serve Christ?

Matt 25:41-46 states that failure to do works of charity, even if someone calls Jesus their Lord, will result in eternal punishment.

In other words, they will be thrown in hell.

 

Read carefully my friend. One can call Jesus Lord but what does that mean without actions to follow it? Even Satan (his demons) called Jesus the Son of God but He is no one who wants to follow Jesus. When one accepts Christ, a new heart and a new nature is given. In this nature, wanting to help others and to follow Jesus is built in. If we do not want to help our fellow neighbors, we certainly do not know the Father personally. If we wanted to, He would show us. Actions always follow suite.

 

Gods work being perfect? There are different levels of perfection and holiness, just like professionals. All humans were created good, with no evil, but still able to disobey. Perfect does not mean the inability to choose. Well, you're now diluting the word perfect to mean "sort of perfect".

Perfect means without flaw.

By definition, a perfect work cannot make an imperfect decision.

It cannot disobey regardless of how much choice it has to do otherwise.

As soon as it does, it shows that it wasn't made perfect to begin with.

In order to still be classifed as a perfect work, all choices would have to be equally good and acceptable to God.

 

Perhaps I spoke without checking things intensly. Is there a passage stating all creation was made perfect, and not, very good?

 

 

You are right, direct sin is not imperfection, but rebellion. However, indirect sin, imperfection, was the result of direct sin.

Would you please provide an example of "direct sin" vs. "indirect sin".

Regardless of how many ways you try to define sin or how much ability to choose you want to assume exists in a created work, there is no way to disconnect the work from the creator of that work.

This is the problem that Christian theologians can't resolve.

They assume evil spawned itself and crept into the creation via some sort of spontaneous generation.

In the end, evil must emerge from the same source that created all things.

Isa 45:7 even states that God created evil, but Christians deny it.

[the stranger]

Perhaps the most profound statement I have heard for a while. "In the end, evil must emerge from the same scource that created all things"

 

You do have me thinking on this one a bit. This is a great point/question. Concerning Isa 45:7, because of the statement already presented, I won't go far into this now, but the word translated evil in the KJV every where else in the same version is translated clamities or disators. When I did my research a while back, it did seem I came across the conclusion that the way it was presented in the KJV comparing with simular passages was that it was implied such as clamities and not the result called evil.

 

Reguarding direct sin and indirect sin, I believe the simplest example would be Adam and Eve disobeying God which in effect caused indirect sin to fall on man (human) at birth there after. Direct sin being a direct disobedience where indirect sin being the infection of the first direct sin, though no matter how you look at it, it is true that sin is sin.

 

I think, stranger has successfully proved how pointless christianity is. Yep you get saved but you can get kicked out of heaven. Smart one god

 

Valk, I believe there is a good reason the bible does not seem to imply that after we arrive in heaven as Christians we would ever disobey and be thrown out. Unlike the angels who lived in Gods glory for an unknown amount of time in heaven, thus knowing the complete glory of our Maker, then rebelled, we as humans see just a taste of Gods goodness as well is hellfire so to speak. We do not see and experience things in the fullness they do in the spirit world. That being said, I believe if we choose to follow Jesus throughout this life, there is no way we would return or make another decision after we saw God in all of His glory.

 

You know, I never once thought about what happened once everybody got INTO heaven. I figured once you were there, you never had to leave or could do anything that'd make you want to leave. God would just clean all the imperfections out of you--the bigotry, the selfishness, the dishonesty, the lustfulness, all of it--so you'd be perfect and incapable of sinning--in other words, of picking any course of action other than the "right" one.

 

This line of thinking led me down the dark paths of "so why the fuck doesn't he just do it NOW and save the rest of us the torture of hell?" Worse yet, it made me wonder why God had given us free will if all he was going to do was remove it after we died. And even worse still, it made me realize that free will only seems valid when both alternatives can be "right." If one alternative is "horribly wrong and evil," that's not really a valid choice, is it? I have free will indeed when I decide between cooking potatoes and grits for breakfast or making oatmeal with fresh peaches. But when free will means either do something God's way or do something that will send me to God's hell, I don't think "free will" means what the con artist preachers think it means. That's like a rapist telling me I can either smile during the rape or protest and get shot afterward. It's morally reprehensible that Christians present such a horrendous evil as "free will."

 

WOW AK, profounding thoughts here. really! It is true we believe we will be made perfect in heaven, but in my own belief that does not mean we will be incapable of rebelling afterwards. However, the bible never notes any of us Christians will at that point. The bible states Satan was made perfect but he rebelled. It does make one wonder. Some great thoughts.

 

Well I think, even if you don't agree I make the case clear enough that anybody reading will get the point.

 

Ohh and, as I said, even if the once saved always saved isn't biblical, there is nothing in the bible that says once your in heaven you can get kicked out. The underlying assumption of all the new testament is once your there, your there to stay.

 

As well, you must admit, it does make christ's sacrifice pointless if that is the case!

 

I agree, provided animals are in the mix.

 

I agree with your bit on the heaven part. There does not seem to be that indication, but again, I believe if we make the choice on earth for God only seeing Him in reflections, then certainly I do not see one turning on Him when seen in His full glory, with a life that we could never ever dream of here on earth.

 

 

I will try to respond to some of the older post now too.

[Guest Valk0010]

But you don't know that, hence why again I say, if your right, christianity is pointless.

 

And anyway, you still have not answered the challenge. If you can have free will in heaven, then free will as a defence is null and void.

[the stranger]

Stranger, you're moving to Tennessee? All the best in getting ready and actually making the move!

 

Thankyou Ficeno. I am actually moving to KY near the big river. It certainly will be a big change.

 

Thank you for these references. They talk about people's choices of whether or not to live in the way that the scriptural writers say is God's way, and they say that God will bless or punish accordingly. "Free will" is not mentioned in these verses. You said that you firmly believe they "imply" free will. In drawing that implication from these verses, are you relying on one or both of the following premises: A. Whenever anyone chooses to do either P or not-P, the person could have chosen the contrary alternative. B. Punishment is justified only if the punished person could have chosen the contrary alternative to the action for which s/he is punished.

 

I believe both my friend

 

The biblical presentation of God's sovereignty represents every event as happening according to God's will. As BAA said, now that you and Valk are going into depth about free will, I won't develop this point except to say that the doctrine of the sovereignty of God refutes premise A. above. Premise A in fact just amounts to a restatement of the "free will" position. So you can't rely on such a premise in interpreting the above verses as evidence for free will, since you'd be assuming already the conclusion you were trying to prove. But maybe you didn't rely on Premise A! Premise B relies on further assumptions, such as "God's punishment of 'sinners' is just," etc., and it assumes Premise A.

 

So your verses can be taken as consistent with the doctrine of free will only if that doctrine is already presupposed. Those verses are also consistent with the predestination point of view. The person who holds predestination believes that God as First Cause set up the whole universe with a chain of causes going back to creation, such that every event is the result of a chain of causes that began with God. If the believer chooses P and the unbeliever chooses not-P, both choices are choices AND are caused by a string of causes that stretches backwards to God's own creative will. (Even if someone only wants to hold that God foreknows these choices, those choices are not "free" in the sense that the people could have acted otherwise.)

 

I see birdies. LOL You go deep. I probably will not address your question is desired, so help me redefine if it has not already been discussed. I believe God not only knows all things, but allows as well as makes all things happen. Concerning people, It is His will that all find Him, thus free will in this case to me would be the ability to make the right decisions as well as the wrong decisions, which often reflect (noy always) our choice on God. I believe God does allow or makes things happen to prompt our decision making, but never forces us to choose one way or the other. I picture predestined is only God knowing our choices, as other wise it would take the "I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked" out of the equation. A loving God could never create poeple with out truly giving them a choice to decide, even after all, His purpose was so we could fellowship with Him. To me it would make no sense and I would have a hard time serving such a God as that. Please redefine question if not answered. Thanks.

 

Think about this: WHY can god not tolerate sin in his presence? Doesn't that limit him? Something he CANNOT do? If he can't tolerate sin, he's not omnipotent. Hence, not "god" in the classical sense.

 

A truly all powerful god could tolerate anything, since he's, oh, um, GOD.

 

If anything, to me Mc daddy, this would just show that God could not of created evil and that thus evil is a result of our own decisions. I think the answere relies in character. We were made to be air breathing creatures, thus we cannot tolorate lungs filed with water. A fish ofcourse dies in fresh air. True, God created us, so how can we define Gods nature? If He could stand sin could He be perfect and just beyond all creation? In short, buddy, I believe it relies in the Character of His being.

 

I will post more shortly

[the stranger]

And anyway, you still have not answered the challenge. If you can have free will in heaven, then free will as a defence is null and void.

 

Sorry Valk, I missed this one and I think I still am. Why is free will null just because it continues in heaven? I guess I am a little lost. If you can simplify that or explain the question a bit more, as perhaps it was with the other replies that I am forgetting, that would be awsome. thanks

[Guest Valk0010]

And anyway, you still have not answered the challenge. If you can have free will in heaven, then free will as a defence is null and void.

 

Sorry Valk, I missed this one and I think I still am. Why is free will null just because it continues in heaven? I guess I am a little lost. If you can simplify that or explain the question a bit more, as perhaps it was with the other replies that I am forgetting, that would be awsome. thanks

No, the free will defense that is used to answer the problem of evil.

[the stranger]

Posted Yesterday, 10:11 AM

Also, there's plenty of instances where god walked around in human form in the bible. He was around sinners then wasn't he?

 

"he can't tolerate sin in his presence"- baloney.

 

You make a seemingling good point. I am sure you generally know the Christian believe on this already, as I have not looked into this question with deep sincerity as of yet, it is believed God came down as a part and not a whole, as He is Spirit. Even as such, with His face never facing the sin, Moses had to go through huge steps, and continuing thereafter, to be in a more direct presense of the Lord. In fact, it is believed most priest only went into the place of Holy one time in there life. And the cleaning rituals and sacrifiscal set up, all to be at peace and to be able to worship. Sacrifice was needed since the disobedience of Adam and Eve.

 

So I guess in part, like maybe His back, could, but I do not believe He is ever said to face or be able to face evil directly without wiping all out.

 

As an aside, since you seem to believe Christian mythology that Satan is sinful and disobedient, that creates a problem.

Regarding your view that God cannot have sin in his presence, how do you explain why God not only had Satan in his presence per the Book of Job, he conversed with him and made a wager with him?

You might want to reconsider your views about Satan and God.

 

You all make things so so hard. LOL I guess to a extrme limit maybe He can, as it is said evil Spirits are sent out by God and so perhaps, it all has limits. All right, you guys win. LOL I gotta check this area out.

[the stranger]

No, the free will defense that is used to answer the problem of evil.

 

Hey Valk, I gotta go for now, but I am going to reread our conversation because I guess this stems from the orgins of it. I'll respond later tonight if I get a chance. Thanks for being patient with me buddy, cause sometimes I need it.

[mcdaddy]

Let me ask you just one thing bud.

 

Read over your responses. Do you see how twisted they are, how logic has to be manipulated and tortured to make your explanations fit the argument?

 

You always have an answer, as all apologists do. It matters not how CRAZY or ILLOGICAL the answer may be, as long as one that is a technical possibility exists. Either you can A) side with a belief system that forces you to make up inane and nearly unintelligible responses to valid questions, causing major cognitive dissonance, or side with the facts that reality exhibits daily, the side that doesn't require blind sheepish faith, the side that has the evidence to back up its claims.

 

The earth isn't 7-10,000 years old friend. If it is, and god made it appear to be 4 billion years old, he's a liar, and who worships a liar?

[Guest Valk0010]

No, the free will defense that is used to answer the problem of evil.

 

Hey Valk, I gotta go for now, but I am going to reread our conversation because I guess this stems from the orgins of it. I'll respond later tonight if I get a chance. Thanks for being patient with me buddy, cause sometimes I need it.

Everything I have said, has been meant to be taken as one big thing.

[centauri]

centauri wrote:

If God predestines anything, which you've acknowledged that he does, then there is no way to know the degree to which that happens.

You can claim he only does it in "some regards" but you have no way to know when something has been predestined by God or if it was a random human choice.

The Bible says that God brings glory to himself by working things according to his will.

That's the purpose of his sovereign power.

The clay pots have no right to question how the potter makes and uses them.

 

I agree Cents, we do not. However, other than what I define as misunderstood scripture, I do not know of any time God forced any one to choose against Him or for Him, though certainly He allowed or created circumstances that helped us make the decisions we have.

I think you're trying to take the position that a threat based ultimatum isn't a use of force or extreme coercion.

But if God doesn't force people to choose for him, then neither did any human dictator force anyone to do anything.

Stalin, Hitler, the Inquisition, the mafia, and a host of other dictators never forced anyone to do anything, they simply allowed or created circumstances that helped people make decisions.

 

Isn't it a basic principle of Christian doctrine that one must accept Jesus as their savior or

suffer eternal punishment?

It's God that casts people into hell.

Luke 12:5

But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.

 

If this isn't a fear based ultimatum, then I'm Saint Peter.

 

Yet under your definition, if a robber held a gun to your head and demanded money, he wouldn't be using force, he'd merely be creating a circumstance to help you make a decision.

 

I believe this is why I am a Christian today, but knowing God wants all to prosper with Him and takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked, and no evedense of God making us turn against Him (With the exception of a wrong view on the hardening of hearts) that I know of.

Would you like to explain why this verse doesn't mean what it so clearly says?

 

Deut 2:30

But Sihon king of Heshbon would not let us pass by him: for the Lord thy God hardened his spirit, and made his heart obstinate, that he might deliver him into thy hand, as appeareth this day.

 

The result of God hardening king Sihon was the extermination of an entire kingdom.

 

Deut 2:33-34

And the Lord our God delivered him before us; and we smote him, and his sons, and all his people.

And we took all his cities at that time, and utterly destroyed the men, and the women, and the little ones, of every city, we left none to remain:

 

Can you show me one passage that says God threw someone in hell though he wanted to serve Christ?

Matt 25:41-46 states that failure to do works of charity, even if someone calls Jesus their Lord, will result in eternal punishment.

In other words, they will be thrown in hell.

 

starnger:

Read carefully my friend. One can call Jesus Lord but what does that mean without actions to follow it?

Ok, so you're contending that people who declare Jesus as their Lord don't really want to serve him if they don't do good works.

This is such a serious violation that they'll get thrown into hell for failure to do these works.

That pretty much wrecks the popular saved by faith alone doctrine.

You must do at least some good works in order for Jesus to give you eternal life.

Christian salvation requires works.

 

Even Satan (his demons) called Jesus the Son of God but He is no one who wants to follow Jesus. When one accepts Christ, a new heart and a new nature is given. In this nature, wanting to help others and to follow Jesus is built in. If we do not want to help our fellow neighbors, we certainly do not know the Father personally. If we wanted to, He would show us. Actions always follow suite.

Jesus didn't help a Canaanite woman until she begged like a dog.

 

Matt 25:22-26

And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.

But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.

But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.

But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs.

 

Jesus showed no signs of helping her until she groveled and worshipped him.

That indicates Jesus wasn't at all eager to help someone if he deemed them inferior or unworthy.

 

Gods work being perfect? There are different levels of perfection and holiness, just like professionals. All humans were created good, with no evil, but still able to disobey. Perfect does not mean the inability to choose.

centauri:

Well, you're now diluting the word perfect to mean "sort of perfect".

Perfect means without flaw.

By definition, a perfect work cannot make an imperfect decision.

It cannot disobey regardless of how much choice it has to do otherwise.

As soon as it does, it shows that it wasn't made perfect to begin with.

In order to still be classifed as a perfect work, all choices would have to be equally good and acceptable to God.

 

stranger:

Perhaps I spoke without checking things intensly. Is there a passage stating all creation was made perfect, and not, very good?

It says his work is perfect, I'll leave it at that.

 

Deut 32:4

He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.

[centauri]

Perhaps the most profound statement I have heard for a while. "In the end, evil must emerge from the same scource that created all things"

 

You do have me thinking on this one a bit. This is a great point/question. Concerning Isa 45:7, because of the statement already presented, I won't go far into this now, but the word translated evil in the KJV every where else in the same version is translated clamities or disators. When I did my research a while back, it did seem I came across the conclusion that the way it was presented in the KJV comparing with simular passages was that it was implied such as clamities and not the result called evil.

From the Jewish Publication Society Tanach:

Isa 45:7

I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil; I am the Lord, that doeth all these things.

 

The same Jewish translation is found here:

http://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/15976

 

Strong's Hebrew Lexicon indicates that the word "Ra", which is used in Isa 45:7, means evil and includes ethical evil as well as calamity or distress.

http://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/hebrew/kjv/ra.html

 

Reguarding direct sin and indirect sin, I believe the simplest example would be Adam and Eve disobeying God which in effect caused indirect sin to fall on man (human) at birth there after. Direct sin being a direct disobedience where indirect sin being the infection of the first direct sin, though no matter how you look at it, it is true that sin is sin.

Thanks for the clarification and I agree that sin is sin.

[midniterider]

I've heard that the bible is the most popular book ever sold. Does anyone have a real statistic on that or is it just crap that xians spew? If true it would be partly because it has a special marketing plan of fear of guilt backing it. Bilions of people have bad taste in books. lol.

 

Regarding security: I discovered that with God there was nothing but fear and guilt. Without god, I feel much better. Godlessness will set you free. :-)

[midniterider]

Let me ask you just one thing bud.

 

Read over your responses. Do you see how twisted they are, how logic has to be manipulated and tortured to make your explanations fit the argument?

 

You always have an answer, as all apologists do. It matters not how CRAZY or ILLOGICAL the answer may be, as long as one that is a technical possibility exists. Either you can A) side with a belief system that forces you to make up inane and nearly unintelligible responses to valid questions, causing major cognitive dissonance, or side with the facts that reality exhibits daily, the side that doesn't require blind sheepish faith, the side that has the evidence to back up its claims.

 

The earth isn't 7-10,000 years old friend. If it is, and god made it appear to be 4 billion years old, he's a liar, and who worships a liar?

 

Stranger dont think god created evil (post #1858) though in Isaiah 45.7 God expressly states he did create evil. Does the bible not speak for itself? How long will Stranger continue to conjure up explanations about what the 'real meaning' of scripture is until he realizes it is a crock of self-contradictory garbage? The best bible for xians is a bible consisting of blank pages so they can just write whatever they want people to believe because they twist the words that are already written into whatever they want it to say anyway. The ultimate dishonesty to yourself is knowing in your heart that your bible is fiction yet trying desperately to make it resemble truth. And then you try to make us believe it too.. lmfao.

[bornagainathiest]

Evidense is all in the eyes of the beholder.

 

NO!

NO!!

NO!!!

 

NO IT ISN'T, STRANGER!

HAVE YOU FORGOTTEN EVERYTHING WE'VE DISCUSSED?

WE DON'T DECIDE WHAT THE EVIDENCE IS!

THE FACTS TELL US WHAT THE EVIDENCE IS!

 

ALL WE CAN DO IS ACCEPT THE FACTS OR DENY THEM!

 

HOW MANY MORE TIMES DO I HAVE TO EXPLAIN IT TO YOU?

 

HOW MANY MORE TIMES WILL YOU AGREE WITH ME, THEN WRITE THIS CRAP!

 

YESTERDAY I SALUTED YOU FOR MAKING PROGRESS. NOW I'M GOING TO TAKE THAT BACK.

 

AS USUAL YOU ARE JUST DENYING THE EVIDENCE.

 

I GIVE UP!

 

YOU'RE A HOPELESS CASE.

 

BAA.

[Akheia]

My Evil Ex was famous for shit like that. People would tell him they were mad at him for a specific character flaw, like his constant tardiness or penchant for lying, and he'd listen very intently, then nod and say "You know what? You're right. I'll work on that." And then he'd go right back to whatever it was.

 

BAA, I'm forced to say that it seems like Stranger, like my fundie ex, doesn't at heart want to understand. I can kind of see why. It's scary to realize that a fundamental precept you've been taught, in this case that facts are a matter of subjective perception that shift and change with belief, is flat out wrong.

 

Stranger, what is so threatening to you about the idea of reality being fixed? About it having nothing to do with beliefs and opinions? Is it possibly that you're finally noticing that reality doesn't square with your particular beliefs?

[♦ ficino ♦]

I believe God not only knows all things, but allows as well as makes all things happen.

 

Hi Stranger, your sentence above is very important, and I invite you to think through its implications further, in light of the conversation that we've all been having on here. It follows from what you say that any person's decision to believe or not believe in God is both allowed and made to happen by God. Is this what you say? If it is, then you are in agreement that the so-called unbelievers are unbelievers as a result of what God made happen. God is therefore causally responsible for their unbelief. He also punishes them in hell for eternity for this unbelief. You said earlier that you could not accept a God who punishes unjustly. You also committed yourself to my premise "B" a while back (I forget which # post) that punishment is only justified if the person has the ability to do the opposite of that for which s/he was punished. But by the principle that God allows and makes all things happen, no one can do otherwise than what God allows/makes happen. So punishment in hell is not justified, by your own premises. I'd invite you to ditch Christian doctrine and reevaluate the spiritual experiences you have had, for I don't think Christian doctrine as it really is matches your generous impulses and your deeper insights about human life.

 

You (or someone else) might say, but God only allows unbelief, he does not force anyone not to believe. He could not have creatures with free will unless he allowed them to disobey him, and those who choose him then choose him freely, not because he made them choose him.

 

This objection to predestinarian doctrine contains several confusions. First, it does not absolve God of responsibility for people's unbelief, because if he has the power to stop it and chooses to let it happen and does not stop it, God has made a decision (I use human language about God here) about that person in advance after all. The all-powerful one who chooses not to use his power in a situation chooses that because the result is his will. So the difference between this sort of choice and outright predestination is an illusion; the outcome is an outcome willed in advance by God. Second, if God foreknows the outcome, then it cannot be the case that the outcome can be otherwise. So the person cannot act otherwise. So back to square one about God's unjust punishment of the person for the outcome that God foresaw and willed (i.e. willed not to stop).

 

I also think you imagine that if we say that God causes someone to make a decision, then God is forcing that person and thus depriving the person of his/her humanity, turning him/her into a robot. Well, in a sense, God as First Cause "forces" every event in the universe. On the other hand, no one experiences a psychological override when God causes them to act in a certain way. We have no reason to think that, if we accept that Exodus occurred, Pharaoh was conscious of anything when God hardened his heart. Yet scripture says that, as well as saying that pharaoh hardened his heart. Same when God sent a lying spirit into the mouths of the prophets.

 

Anyway, this is getting long enough, so I'll just suggest that one way to cut through all these difficulties is to see them for what they are - false questions that arise from a contradictory system of belief.

 

Someone may reply that even angels got lost in trying to figure out predestination and God's mercy (that image is from Milton's Paradise Lost), and that such questions as these are only a mask for rebellion - that one needs the faith of a little child rather than to provoke unanswerable questions. I took that approach myself for many years and ignored many things about the system I had bought into. Eventually the problems couldn't be ignored and the scales fell from my eyes, so to speak. I am grateful for the good things that Christianity gave me, and I know I thought my spiritual experiences were caused by the sort of God that Christianity describes.

[centauri]

...The best bible for xians is a bible consisting of blank pages so they can just write whatever they want people to believe because they twist the words that are already written into whatever they want it to say anyway.

This is indeed the conclusion that best fits the evidence.

As skeptics, we've observed this pattern of behavior over and over again.

 

Every Christian has their own mental version of the Bible, edited and redacted by either themselves or their pastor / congregation.

Not surprisingly, "God" conveniently agrees with them, and so they assume that they've tapped into a magical fountain of truth.

Argument by assertion replaces objective reality and is passed on from generation to generation.

Aggressive forms of Christianity then make it a mission to shove their version of reality down the throats of anyone not already infected with the disease.

As I recently heard on a Christian radio show, "it's our duty to God to bring all people in line with the Christian worldview".

These people are insane, perhaps functional in basic day to day activity, but insane regardless.

[Spectrox]

Sorry Spectrox, right now I am on a real computor, but the phone I usualy use is beyond out of date as well as busted. It was one of the first to have limited internet ( old Samsung ) so it's not even possible to read my replies as I am typing with my busted touch screen board. Point being, it is difficult so certainly I will miss many things as my memory I wish was better, but let me try to get to a few right now.

 

If you are a literalist, how old do you think the Earth is?

Standard believe of 7,000 to 10,000 years.

 

When did Adam and Eve chat with the talking snake?

After being created and shortly before the fall.

 

Mark 16 states that a true believer can cast out demons and drink poison and live to tell the tale - have you done any of these things lately?

I cannot say I have. I believe small miracles happen everyday, as well as big ones, but all miracles can be explained away with a doubter's eye. These things recorded in the bible were done so because these things were not everyday events, and I am sure many Christians lived than and live today that will never see these miracles, but the miracle of a transformed life is the biggest of all.

 

Evidense is all in the eyes of the beholder. You know the stories. The Israelites seen the miracles but still denied and would not accept any self testamony of the kind. I believe the same happens today. My uncle believes it was an angel who kept him alive durring a bad wreck, but who can prove it. There is no way I could change your mind, and I believe the same is true for me based on what I have seen and experienced in my own life. Different than what you are pointing out? Yes. But just the same, miracles to me.

 

 

Oh dear. You've got a lot to unlearn!

 

Are you aware at least that all the scientific evidence points to an earth that is vastly older than 10,000 years? Radioactive carbon dating? Potassium argon dating? Sedimentary rock layers piled on top of each other over depths of tens sometimes hundreds of metres? Plate tectonics?

 

You know those things called science & technology - we use them in every aspect of our lives. From having a good understanding of medicine, mathematics, information technology, psychology. Without it we would all be slaves to the plough and the wheel competing like savages against nature. The thing about science is that it's the best way we have of homing in on the truth. Coupled with logic and reasoned argument, it works better than anything else. The process is called Post Axiomatic Justification. We are being two-faced if we pick and choose when to believe the science and when not to. It's ingrained in the everyday world and reality.

 

And in terms of miracles I'm not talking about modern miracles such as praying for someone who happens to get better or seeing Jesus' face in a Cheese Toasty. I'm talking Biblical-style miracles such as talking donkeys, walking on the water, dying for a weekend and then resurrecting. Regular occurences in the Bible written so nonchalantly that you'd think it was just a normal day at the office.

 

Why won't God heal amputees? In fact, why won't he do anything useful?

[bornagainathiest]

My Evil Ex was famous for shit like that. People would tell him they were mad at him for a specific character flaw, like his constant tardiness or penchant for lying, and he'd listen very intently, then nod and say "You know what? You're right. I'll work on that." And then he'd go right back to whatever it was.

 

BAA, I'm forced to say that it seems like Stranger, like my fundie ex, doesn't at heart want to understand. I can kind of see why. It's scary to realize that a fundamental precept you've been taught, in this case that facts are a matter of subjective perception that shift and change with belief, is flat out wrong.

 

Stranger, what is so threatening to you about the idea of reality being fixed? About it having nothing to do with beliefs and opinions? Is it possibly that you're finally noticing that reality doesn't square with your particular beliefs?

 

Then you have my sympathy Akheia.

 

Btw, don't you find it interesting that between us we know of two Fundies, both who have to take the Bible literally, and because of this daily denial of reality, they end up as untrustworthy, deceitful, manipulative liars? You'd think that if they were really serving God with their literalism, He'd transform them by the power of His Holy Spirit, wouldn't you? You know... so that they'd clearly display good fruit in their behavior?

 

Instead they end up serving only themselves.

 

How sad!

 

BAA.

 

 

p.s.

What's the bet that the Stranger does one of the following?

Carries on before as if I don't exist. Writes that my messages make him laugh. Drops out of view for a while, until he thinks it's safe and then carries on before as none of this happened. I've even got a... "Told you so!" ...ready and waiting for him, when he does.