Why Do You Remain A Christian?

[the stranger]

You got me all figured out don't you BBA? This is a fact. Because I believe the facts are different from what you state or believe is fact, I refuse to accept the facts. Is that fair? Could I not say it is you who refuse to accept the facts? As for showing friuts, my friend, the only fruit that would please you is my denial of Christ and the acceptance of the things you believe are facts, as somehow you believe it is just so simple like that. If it were, you would not have "factual" differences around the board and around the world. Yes, you could say that still only one view is fact, and if so, in the end, BBA, I truly hope we do agree on what these facts are. I still love you with all the brotherly love given me, but I think right now, were just running around circles trying to catch our tails. That being said, I do wish you the best of luck, my last fruit for you. I hope you let the seeds spread friend. I do my best not to judge you, as with all, and perhaps the teacher would learn even more yet, if this lesson was applied. Good luck.

 

Are you aware at least that all the scientific evidence points to an earth that is vastly older than 10,000 years? Radioactive carbon dating? Potassium argon dating? Sedimentary rock layers piled on top of each other over depths of tens sometimes hundreds of metres? Plate tectonics?

 

I am aware that these testing results in showing age but not showing what age. I have heard from a few million to billions, as it changes often. Unfortuntly, I will be moving Monday with no phone internet or computor so as we will not be able to go into this in detail, but if by chance you have not, I would encourage you to throughly check both sides of this debate.

 

You know those things called science & technology - we use them in every aspect of our lives. From having a good understanding of medicine, mathematics, information technology, psychology. Without it we would all be slaves to the plough and the wheel competing like savages against nature. The thing about science is that it's the best way we have of homing in on the truth. Coupled with logic and reasoned argument, it works better than anything else. The process is called Post Axiomatic Justification. We are being two-faced if we pick and choose when to believe the science and when not to. It's ingrained in the everyday world and reality.

 

Did you know many of the first original breakthroughs in the science world came from Christians?

 

Why won't God heal amputees? In fact, why won't he do anything useful?

Sometimes it is behind the scenes, the part we cannot see right away.

 

Hi Stranger, your sentence above is very important, and I invite you to think through its implications further, in light of the conversation that we've all been having on here. It follows from what you say that any person's decision to believe or not believe in God is both allowed and made to happen by God. Is this what you say? If it is, then you are in agreement that the so-called unbelievers are unbelievers as a result of what God made happen. God is therefore causally responsible for their unbelief. He also punishes them in hell for eternity for this unbelief. You said earlier that you could not accept a God who punishes unjustly. You also committed yourself to my premise "B" a while back (I forget which # post) that punishment is only justified if the person has the ability to do the opposite of that for which s/he was punished. But by the principle that God allows and makes all things happen, no one can do otherwise than what God allows/makes happen. So punishment in hell is not justified, by your own premises. I'd invite you to ditch Christian doctrine and reevaluate the spiritual experiences you have had, for I don't think Christian doctrine as it really is matches your generous impulses and your deeper insights about human life.

 

Ficeno, thankyou for your kind last sentence. I agree with your reply except for one thing. I do agree He knows what decisions we will make on the happenings of our life, and is in control of these happenings, thus in your view, destine those in advance to hell. Here is a question though. Do you know any circomstance in life that would lead some to Christ? If we blame God for allowing a accident which results in unbelieve, and ofcourse also giving God the credit for those in the same boat that come to know Him because of this same accident, then we are in a dimama. As ponted out earlier, it is up to us to respond accordingly with each event, and though God allows these events, and He knows in advance our decisions based on these events, it is not God making these decisions, and in fact, God uses much pateince to bring us to Himself. If this believe was true, why even bother making choices at all? Why try in life? Why not just all give up, sleep in and let be, be? It is because though it is true God does know the outcome, it does no less of holding us accountable. By assuming this, you are assuming another situation would of brought him to repentence, which surely is not supported by anything. So, my friend, while I do see your point, even though He is all knowing, we are still responsible and we still have that choice.

 

Ofcorse, my friend, I think we could go around and round with this as well.

 

----------------------------

 

There are more post of which I do feel the need to reply, and I still might be on tomorrow (might) but I need to let you all know.

 

My move Monday will result in no internet accesability. I do not know if I will be able to get a new one anytime soon. Further more, to be honest, we would probably be circling around the same core issues forever.

 

When I first arrived at this site, I was going to prove to all that God was real and the bible could and would be prooven true. Guess what? I changed my mind quite quickly. With such friends as Cits, showing me how to really get into the details of the bible, Antlerman (Head lol) going deeper in the mind and soul than I knew was possible, and Ouroborus, just his genuine story and charactor (and smarts) really left a deep impression on me. There have been many many more on this site that truely have showed me much. In fact, caused me to doubt at least twice.

 

From a short time after my start here, I set myself on a different mission. To learn. Be open minded. Find out why we all made the decisions that we had made.

 

Because of this I certainly learned much more than I ever dreamed that I would. Even is recent, some of your questions have, quite frankly, stumped me. I use to, perhaps, think I was a little smarter than I was. Through this site, I learned the taste of humble pie, my foot in mouth, everyone encounters different life expereinces resulting in different life choices, and that perhaps the biggest thing, your not all demons. LOL Just joking. I have truly met and got to know some great people on this site and from what I have learned (even from BBA) I leave without passing judgement in any sort of way on anyone here (despite my first thoughts about this site was simular to such) and in fact, the latest thing you all learned me was the false teaching of God not being able to tolorate evil. It seems for now, early in my study, perhaps God chooses not to tolorate evil. Either way, you guys have all amazed me with your profound questions (Cents and Ficeno) and I will never forget my learning here. NEVER I have learned there are many great, moral people on this board as well, and Antlerman impressed me midway through with not allowing threats or sickening responses showing I had great reason to always give him respect.

 

Bottom line is, I will try replying to a few more post before my move, but I just really wanted to say, thank you all for many deep conversations and questions. Many things here I could of never learned anywhere else.

 

 

So why do I keep the faith?

 

It was not because of my childhood church, as I now only support the basics of that churches foundation (Jesus saves and the salvation of) and so indoctrinazion was not it. It was not because I always took the word of God to be true, as I never read it in my days of rebellion (years and years, as even now, I had rejected or not accepted Christ more years than I have known Him (14)) and did not until He made Himself undeniable to me, as I hope He does for all of you soon. It was based on all my years of rebelling, knowing somehow He really was there, as otherwise I would of and should of recieved much jail time, but did not for His grace. In fact, I should of been dead twice, but because of His power, here i am. It was not until later on He showed Himself to me greatly through His Holy Spirit, after sending some brothers to do much blessing of our household. (helping) Even when I doubdet much, He always came through for me. No, He did not answer my prayers, or take away my problems, or pass the test that I had given Him, but instead, always in a gentle whisper and small miracles, He would always say, "I am here, Son. Do not turn away as I have always been with you, even in the times you could not see me."

 

My experiences brought me to much study, but my study did not bring me to great experiences. Now I know many will say here, "It is all in your head, man." And I understand. But my transformed life, and Him always by my side, not living a life of jail or slavery, but frredom that only His Spirit can give, I feel at peace. In times past after placing Him as an outcast, I felt no longer peaceful, but instead restless. Evolution seems to teach all is by chance. This throws security out the window. It also teaches no reason for living. Jesus is my reason.

 

Truth be said, I have no power or will to change your hearts torward God (As that is something only He can do and not me) but only can say thank you for what you have shown me. It is not my indoctornation or things I once was taught, but Jesus Himself showing Me He is always there. How I do wish all could say this, as I really have no reason to worry about tomorrow, knowing Who's hand it is in.

 

I do apoligise I will not be able to get to near the replies and studies that I wanted to, but because of this site, when it becomes available to me, you better believe I will do those studies.

 

I am a legal pastor though never taught in a church, though upon my move I expect this to be the case. For me, it is if Jesus was there with me every step of the way, and in my life, making things that would never never be possible possible. And as all of you, only I can atestify for my own experiences based on the great great test of my own life, and that is still going on. Upon taking this role, because of this site, I will never never never be so ignorent of things I do not know again, as I am no judge, nor do I know the hearts or minds, or the reasons why. There is only One Judge, and it is my belief in the end He will judge fairly, by basing all judgement of what we knew, and how we responded to that.

 

There are some things on this board I will never be able to aduectly answer, but I believe in the end, they will all be answered.

 

The best of luck to you, to all of you guys (and ladies). I truly have appreciated your deep insite, questioins, and life experiences.

[mcdaddy]

OHMYGAWD.

 

SMH

 

 

some just aren't ready.

[Akheia]

All that, and he still has no idea what the difference is between a fact and an opinion. (Hint to Stranger: your belief in the insane storm god Yahweh is an opinion, not a fact. AND NO, ACTUALLY THE AGE O OUR PLANET HAS NOT SHIFTED MUCH. WE'RE PRETTY CLEAR ON THAT ONE.)

[roadrunner]

All that, and he still has no idea what the difference is between a fact and an opinion. (Hint to Stranger: your belief in the insane storm god Yahweh is an opinion, not a fact. AND NO, ACTUALLY THE AGE O OUR PLANET HAS NOT SHIFTED MUCH. WE'RE PRETTY CLEAR ON THAT ONE.)

 

I hate when people say that science changes. Science GETS BETTER and MORE PRECISE. Because science cannot YET say or prove the age down to the second, it doesnt mean that its all CRAP.

[roadrunner]

OHMYGAWD.

 

SMH

 

 

some just aren't ready.

 

i know. i know. its painful to watch. i want to jump out of a window.

[mcdaddy]

MUST. HOLD ON. TO ANCIENT SUPERSTITIONS. AT ALLLLLL COSTSSSS.

 

WILL GO TO HELLLLL. IF....I....APPLY.....SCIENTIFIC......METHOD!!!!!!!!

[Kaiser01]

Quote

 

You know those things called science & technology - we use them in every aspect of our lives. From having a good understanding of medicine, mathematics, information technology, psychology. Without it we would all be slaves to the plough and the wheel competing like savages against nature. The thing about science is that it's the best way we have of homing in on the truth. Coupled with logic and reasoned argument, it works better than anything else. The process is called Post Axiomatic Justification. We are being two-faced if we pick and choose when to believe the science and when not to. It's ingrained in the everyday world and reality.

 

Did you know many of the first original breakthroughs in the science world came from Christians?

 

You do understand nimrod that at the time of the first large scale scinetific discoveries there was no other explanation for the universe and existence except for God right?

 

I hear this alot, especially with Issac Newton, "WELL DUH NEWTON BAR....I MEAN FIG NEWTON... I MEAN ISSAC NETWON GUY WAS A CHRISTIAN SO GAWD IS REAL."

 

There was no alternate theory at the time when this man made his discoveries, so your point is invalid. What these men unknowingly did was create a world where God was unnessesary, No star needs God to form and no economic system needs God for business transactions.

[mcdaddy]

Newton is alive today.

 

His name is Stephen hawking.

[midniterider]

"Did you know many of the first original breakthroughs in the science world came from Christians?"

 

People back in the olden days were a bit afraid to say they weren't Christians...I'm sure xians have done a lot of wonderful things in science. Does this prove that god exists? No.

[bornagainathiest]

That's BAA, not BBA as I've told you before! Improving yourself thru learning just isn't one of your core skills, eh?

 

You got me all figured out don't you BBA? This is a fact. Because I believe the facts are different from what you state or believe is fact, I refuse to accept the facts. Is that fair?

 

The Stranger writes...

I got you all figured out. This is a fact.

 

Then he writes...

Because I believe the facts are different from what you state or believe is fact, I refuse to accept the facts.

 

So the Stranger refuses to accept the facts? Like this one? "I got you all figured out. This is a fact."

 

Could I not say it is you who refuse to accept the facts?

 

Yes, Stranger. You can say that, but you'd be wrong in do so.

 

As for showing friuts, my friend, the only fruit that would please you is my denial of Christ and the acceptance of the things you believe are facts, as somehow you believe it is just so simple like that.

 

Wrong again!

Denial of Christ is not a spiritual fruit.

Love, Joy, Peace, Patience, Kindness, Goodness, Faithfulness, Gentleness and Self-Control are.

 

If it were, you would not have "factual" differences around the board and around the world. Yes, you could say that still only one view is fact, and if so, in the end, BBA, I truly hope we do agree on what these facts are. I still love you with all the brotherly love given me, but I think right now, were just running around circles trying to catch our tails. That being said, I do wish you the best of luck, my last fruit for you. I hope you let the seeds spread friend. I do my best not to judge you, as with all, and perhaps the teacher would learn even more yet, if this lesson was applied. Good luck.

 

Are you aware at least that all the scientific evidence points to an earth that is vastly older than 10,000 years? Radioactive carbon dating? Potassium argon dating? Sedimentary rock layers piled on top of each other over depths of tens sometimes hundreds of metres? Plate tectonics?

 

I am aware that these testing results in showing age but not showing what age. I have heard from a few million to billions, as it changes often. Unfortuntly, I will be moving Monday with no phone internet or computor so as we will not be able to go into this in detail, but if by chance you have not, I would encourage you to throughly check both sides of this debate.

 

You know those things called science & technology - we use them in every aspect of our lives. From having a good understanding of medicine, mathematics, information technology, psychology. Without it we would all be slaves to the plough and the wheel competing like savages against nature. The thing about science is that it's the best way we have of homing in on the truth. Coupled with logic and reasoned argument, it works better than anything else. The process is called Post Axiomatic Justification. We are being two-faced if we pick and choose when to believe the science and when not to. It's ingrained in the everyday world and reality.

 

Did you know many of the first original breakthroughs in the science world came from Christians?

 

Why won't God heal amputees? In fact, why won't he do anything useful?

Sometimes it is behind the scenes, the part we cannot see right away.

 

Hi Stranger, your sentence above is very important, and I invite you to think through its implications further, in light of the conversation that we've all been having on here. It follows from what you say that any person's decision to believe or not believe in God is both allowed and made to happen by God. Is this what you say? If it is, then you are in agreement that the so-called unbelievers are unbelievers as a result of what God made happen. God is therefore causally responsible for their unbelief. He also punishes them in hell for eternity for this unbelief. You said earlier that you could not accept a God who punishes unjustly. You also committed yourself to my premise "B" a while back (I forget which # post) that punishment is only justified if the person has the ability to do the opposite of that for which s/he was punished. But by the principle that God allows and makes all things happen, no one can do otherwise than what God allows/makes happen. So punishment in hell is not justified, by your own premises. I'd invite you to ditch Christian doctrine and reevaluate the spiritual experiences you have had, for I don't think Christian doctrine as it really is matches your generous impulses and your deeper insights about human life.

 

Ficeno, thankyou for your kind last sentence. I agree with your reply except for one thing. I do agree He knows what decisions we will make on the happenings of our life, and is in control of these happenings, thus in your view, destine those in advance to hell. Here is a question though. Do you know any circomstance in life that would lead some to Christ? If we blame God for allowing a accident which results in unbelieve, and ofcourse also giving God the credit for those in the same boat that come to know Him because of this same accident, then we are in a dimama. As ponted out earlier, it is up to us to respond accordingly with each event, and though God allows these events, and He knows in advance our decisions based on these events, it is not God making these decisions, and in fact, God uses much pateince to bring us to Himself. If this believe was true, why even bother making choices at all? Why try in life? Why not just all give up, sleep in and let be, be? It is because though it is true God does know the outcome, it does no less of holding us accountable. By assuming this, you are assuming another situation would of brought him to repentence, which surely is not supported by anything. So, my friend, while I do see your point, even though He is all knowing, we are still responsible and we still have that choice.

 

Ofcorse, my friend, I think we could go around and round with this as well.

 

----------------------------

 

There are more post of which I do feel the need to reply, and I still might be on tomorrow (might) but I need to let you all know.

 

My move Monday will result in no internet accesability. I do not know if I will be able to get a new one anytime soon. Further more, to be honest, we would probably be circling around the same core issues forever.

 

When I first arrived at this site, I was going to prove to all that God was real and the bible could and would be prooven true. Guess what? I changed my mind quite quickly. With such friends as Cits, showing me how to really get into the details of the bible, Antlerman (Head lol) going deeper in the mind and soul than I knew was possible, and Ouroborus, just his genuine story and charactor (and smarts) really left a deep impression on me. There have been many many more on this site that truely have showed me much. In fact, caused me to doubt at least twice.

 

From a short time after my start here, I set myself on a different mission. To learn. Be open minded. Find out why we all made the decisions that we had made.

 

Because of this I certainly learned much more than I ever dreamed that I would. Even is recent, some of your questions have, quite frankly, stumped me. I use to, perhaps, think I was a little smarter than I was. Through this site, I learned the taste of humble pie, my foot in mouth, everyone encounters different life expereinces resulting in different life choices, and that perhaps the biggest thing, your not all demons. LOL Just joking. I have truly met and got to know some great people on this site and from what I have learned (even from BBA) I leave without passing judgement in any sort of way on anyone here

 

Liar!

You judged me with the first sentence of your message!

 

And you did it again, here...

Could I not say it is you who refuse to accept the facts?

 

And here, twice...

As for showing friuts, my friend, the only fruit that would please you is my denial of Christ and the acceptance of the things you believe are facts, as somehow you believe it is just so simple like that.

 

I never asked you to deny Christ. That is a false judgement against me on your part.

I never said it was just so simple as that. Another false judgement against me.

These are also lies (bearing false witness against Christ) on your part Stranger.

 

How long will it be before the good people of Tennessee see your true colors, I wonder?

 

(despite my first thoughts about this site was simular to such) and in fact, the latest thing you all learned me was the false teaching of God not being able to tolorate evil. It seems for now, early in my study, perhaps God chooses not to tolorate evil. Either way, you guys have all amazed me with your profound questions (Cents and Ficeno) and I will never forget my learning here. NEVER I have learned there are many great, moral people on this board as well, and Antlerman impressed me midway through with not allowing threats or sickening responses showing I had great reason to always give him respect.

 

Bottom line is, I will try replying to a few more post before my move, but I just really wanted to say, thank you all for many deep conversations and questions. Many things here I could of never learned anywhere else.

 

 

So why do I keep the faith?

 

It was not because of my childhood church, as I now only support the basics of that churches foundation (Jesus saves and the salvation of) and so indoctrinazion was not it. It was not because I always took the word of God to be true, as I never read it in my days of rebellion (years and years, as even now, I had rejected or not accepted Christ more years than I have known Him (14)) and did not until He made Himself undeniable to me, as I hope He does for all of you soon. It was based on all my years of rebelling, knowing somehow He really was there, as otherwise I would of and should of recieved much jail time, but did not for His grace. In fact, I should of been dead twice, but because of His power, here i am. It was not until later on He showed Himself to me greatly through His Holy Spirit, after sending some brothers to do much blessing of our household. (helping) Even when I doubdet much, He always came through for me. No, He did not answer my prayers, or take away my problems, or pass the test that I had given Him, but instead, always in a gentle whisper and small miracles, He would always say, "I am here, Son. Do not turn away as I have always been with you, even in the times you could not see me."

 

My experiences brought me to much study, but my study did not bring me to great experiences. Now I know many will say here, "It is all in your head, man." And I understand. But my transformed life, and Him always by my side, not living a life of jail or slavery, but frredom that only His Spirit can give, I feel at peace. In times past after placing Him as an outcast, I felt no longer peaceful, but instead restless. Evolution seems to teach all is by chance. This throws security out the window. It also teaches no reason for living. Jesus is my reason.

 

Truth be said, I have no power or will to change your hearts torward God (As that is something only He can do and not me) but only can say thank you for what you have shown me. It is not my indoctornation or things I once was taught, but Jesus Himself showing Me He is always there. How I do wish all could say this, as I really have no reason to worry about tomorrow, knowing Who's hand it is in.

 

I do apoligise I will not be able to get to near the replies and studies that I wanted to, but because of this site, when it becomes available to me, you better believe I will do those studies.

 

I am a legal pastor though never taught in a church, though upon my move I expect this to be the case.

 

Then may reason help anyone foolish enough to give you any credence!

 

For me, it is if Jesus was there with me every step of the way, and in my life, making things that would never never be possible possible. And as all of you, only I can atestify for my own experiences based on the great great test of my own life, and that is still going on. Upon taking this role, because of this site, I will never never never be so ignorent of things I do not know again, as I am no judge, nor do I know the hearts or minds, or the reasons why. There is only One Judge, and it is my belief in the end He will judge fairly, by basing all judgement of what we knew, and how we responded to that.

 

There are some things on this board I will never be able to aduectly answer, but I believe in the end, they will all be answered.

 

The best of luck to you, to all of you guys (and ladies). I truly have appreciated your deep insite, questioins, and life experiences.

 

Is that a fact or a belief, Stranger?

 

BAA

[Akheia]

Stranger, I don't deny that you've had some experiences that seem really crazy to you. I have too. What I would gently suggest is that given that the Bible cannot possibly be true--that its claims are debunked, that not a single thing in it can be confirmed via historical finds, that its mysteries are already discovered via scientific means, its demands proven just through sheer logic to be irrational, its Savior completely nonexistent, and its "miracles" just flukes of random chance, given that the Bible is clearly a moldy book of fairy tales and "just so" stories, maybe the divinity behind those experiences, if a divinity did them at all, was not who you thought it was. He didn't actually send you a letter, after all. He didn't confirm his identity verbally. He didn't send an email with an IP header from heaven. He didn't leave any fingerprints. All you have is a cultural expectation that if something crazy happens, it must have been JEEEEEBUS. Or demons. Or Satan himself. What if it was none of those? Or what if your cultural expectation to pin Jesus on everything and see any coincidence as the clear work of your Divine Daddy Buddy is simply wrong and it wasn't a divine happening at all?

 

My, my, you're quick to potentially damn yourself by giving credit to the wrong person, aren't you?

 

Every single person here will tell you the same story: we have all had the exact same feelings in non-Christian contexts as we have in Christian ones. I've felt that same feeling of bubbling-over spiritually in contexts where, trust me, there was no fucking way Jesus was anywhere near me or approving of what I was doing. You have been taught that your feelings are what you should go by in evaluating a religion's claims, but that is a cruel lie. Your feelings are easily manipulated and shaped. Feelings are in no way a trustworthy measure to assess what's happening in the invisible spirit world. AND THEY ARE NOT FACTS.

 

Every single person here will tell you something else, too: that when we examined our memories of these supposedly divine events in hindsight, without the blinders of faith, we discovered that a lot of these divine happenings weren't actually that miraculous or weird. Of the ones left over, we can see clearly that there wasn't any particular reason to believe Jesus was behind it beyond that we were simply geared to think it was Jesus due to our cultural indoctrinations. He never seems to sign his work, does he? Weird experiences are a piss-poor reason to devote your life to someone as cruel and evil as Yahweh/Jesus. AND THEY ARE NOT FACTS EITHER.

 

A fact would be something like a pillar of fire from heaven that anybody could see regardless of their level of "faith" and their doctrinal stance, like God did in the OT to convince people of his existence. It wouldn't matter if I believed in Yahweh or not. I'd see the pillar just like you would. Does a burning pillar of fire in the sky imply Yahweh did it? No, but the pillar itself is a shining beacon in the night. A fact doesn't change no matter what you believe about it. Natural selection happens regardless of whether or not you believe that a sky fairy created the earth out of a song. The beautiful thing about science is that if we saw a pillar like that, we'd be on it like white on rice trying to figure out where it came from and what it meant. We wouldn't just shrug and go "well! Guess it's Yahweh!" -- because what if we're wrong?

 

Stranger, the simple truth is that you're not a really strong critical thinker. You've been taught by evil men that your experiences and feelings trump reality, and you've even had your concept of reality warped to fit into these evil men's religion. You don't even know what reality IS or how to deal with facts, so I'm certainly not holding against you that you constantly get your science wrong, misstate facts, and put words into the mouths of people. You are a representative of the evangelical movement as a whole. But there is hope for you. Educate yourself. Reach beyond your comfort zone and start asking those hard questions. Refuse to settle for the usual apologetics. Learn logic and educate yourself about the many cognitive biases and logical fallacies the Christian faith holds so dear. And you will break free.

 

Good luck with your move. I've lived near the area you're heading to and it's not bad

[Akheia]

[Spectrox]

MUST. HOLD ON. TO ANCIENT SUPERSTITIONS. AT ALLLLLL COSTSSSS.

 

WILL GO TO HELLLLL. IF....I....APPLY.....SCIENTIFIC......METHOD!!!!!!!!

 

This is hilarious, McDaddy. You've just McMade my McDay.

[CDFree]

Stranger, I'm new to this thread and a new ex-C. Just wondering what you think of Xians who chase others away from faith because they don't go to church?

[mcdaddy]

MUST. HOLD ON. TO ANCIENT SUPERSTITIONS. AT ALLLLLL COSTSSSS.

 

WILL GO TO HELLLLL. IF....I....APPLY.....SCIENTIFIC......METHOD!!!!!!!!

 

This is hilarious, McDaddy. You've just McMade my McDay.

You're McWelcome!

[bdp]

Robot Chicken is the bomb.

[bornagainathiest]

.Dear Akheia,

 

I commend you for the gentleness and the tact expressed in your message to the Stranger.

 

However, I think we'd be remiss if we see him only as a victim of the evil men you mention.

Ok, he hasn't acquired much in the way of critical thinking skills, but deep down, at the core, before a person can acquire these things, they've got to want to. And, sorry to say, that's NOT what I see when I re-read his parting post - I see a wilfull NEGATIVE choice on his part. The Stranger doesn't want to use critical thinking. He doesn't want to learn the difference bewtween belief and fact. He doesn't want to move from where he is. It's a conscious, deliberate and calculated choice on his part. A point-blank refusal.

 

"You got me all figured out don't you BBA? This is a fact. Because I believe the facts are different from what you state or believe is fact, I refuse to accept the facts."

 

Now Akheia, I'm sure you'll agree with me that until a person is willing to do so, they will not change.

We, as Ex-Christians, know this only too well, right? We actively chose to believe in what we now see as unbelievable. We actively refused to even look at the facts, let alone accept them. At every stage in our deconversion, we couldn't move on until we'd made the conscious and deliberate choice to do so. The evidence and the facts were key factors in our leaving Christianity, but without our decisions to look at them and accept them, they would have meant nothing.

 

This is where the Stranger is now. Not by accident, nor by default, nor by the choice of others. No. It's his and his choice alone to be where he is now. It's his choice to refuse, to deny and to reject. Nobody else can make those decisions for him. Ok, he's had his thinking seriously warped by others, but that in itself doesn't excuse him from the responsibility for his choices. No more than someone who's suffered abuse at the hands of others can be excused from handing out such abuse themselves.

 

And this is what's really so very sad about the Stranger and his future.

As far as I can see, he's about to repeat the very same cycle of behavior he was exposed to by the evil men you wrote about. Just as they warped his thinking, so the Stranger is getting ready to do the same to others. Here's what he wrote...

"I am a legal pastor though never taught in a church, though upon my move I expect this to be the case."

 

 

 

 

 

 

When he moves to Tennessee, he expects to teach in a church.

 

 

 

Read that and weep.

Weep for those he'll teach to deny the facts. Weep for those he'll encourage to believe that the Bible is literally true. Weep for those who'll swallow his irrational claims hook, line and sinker. Weep for those who's lives he'll de-rail. Weep for those who'll expose their children to these lies.

 

And so the religion virus Richard Dawkins wrote about continues to spread and infect new hosts. The Stranger refused our help and said "No!" to being cured of it. So, just as Christian apologists say that it is our willful decisions that send us to hell, so I maintain that the Stranger is no victim here. It is his wilfull decision to reject and refuse and deny. Therefore, whatever harm he does to others thru his 'ministry', the fault and the blame are exculsively his.

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

[centauri]

And so the religion virus Richard Dawkins wrote about continues to spread and infect new hosts.

It certainly behaves like a virus:

http://www.christianitymeme.org/

• Christianity is a meme--a mind virus that lives in the minds of people and is spread through proselytization and other means.
  
• Christianity is a meme about God, but it has no other connection to God.
  
• The Christianity Meme has been shaped purely by natural selection--the law of survival of the fittest--as it has played out in human minds. It is a sophisticated product of cultural evolution.
  
• Being a "true Christian" infected by the Christianity Meme will subject you to aid its survival through its adaptations that allow it to exert control over human behavior.
  
• As a consequence, the more Christian you are the more you are prone to certain kinds of immoral behavior. The Christianity Meme is not bound by the moral principles it carries.
  

[Akheia]

BAA, I hear you. I also think it's a crying shame that he'll propagate his fake religion and cruel divinity to others. It can be very threatening and scary for a fundie to come face to face with the ideas and concepts that we ex-Christians take for granted. But once he has come to that scary place, it's on him to process it like an adult and move on. When a child is raised poorly, I give that child a bit of a pass on culpability until the child comes of age. At that point, I expect the kid to get his shit sorted out--with professional aid if necessary, but sort his shit out he must. In the same way, I do very much put the blame for Stranger's utter helplessness with reality on the shoulders of those who have indoctrinated him, but I don't intend that to be a free pass for him to continue on his path now that he knows its shortcomings and evils. If someone learns what he's doing is evil and he continues doing it, then I'm not sure what else to call that person besides "evil."

 

That said, I don't expect him to just go "OMG! They're right!" and deconvert on the spot. It may take a while for him to really assimilate what he's learned. But I think that if he really does care about the truth, about what's right, about what's real, that what he's learned here will haunt him. If it never does, then he's just another guy lying for Jesus and faking it till he makes it, and I'm not sure how much of my time a willfully-ignorant fundietard merits. It took me about five years to really assimilate the things I was learning and fully reject the false god of Christianity. It might have been faster if there'd been some gracious people around me to talk to while I was questioning. So even if Stranger proves to be a lost case, I want others (lurkers, especially) to feel safe to ask those hard questions and exercise their personal sovereignty and come to those hard decisions on their own schedule. Some of these lurkers may not have made their own personal decisions for their entire lives, after all. You see what I mean? I'm not giving a free pass, but am saying that even if movement is slow and small, that it's needed.

[♦ ficino ♦]

Why won't God heal amputees? In fact, why won't he do anything useful?

Sometimes it is behind the scenes, the part we cannot see right away.

 

Hi Stranger, your sentence above is very important, and I invite you to think through its implications further, in light of the conversation that we've all been having on here. It follows from what you say that any person's decision to believe or not believe in God is both allowed and made to happen by God. Is this what you say? If it is, then you are in agreement that the so-called unbelievers are unbelievers as a result of what God made happen. God is therefore causally responsible for their unbelief. He also punishes them in hell for eternity for this unbelief. You said earlier that you could not accept a God who punishes unjustly. You also committed yourself to my premise "B" a while back (I forget which # post) that punishment is only justified if the person has the ability to do the opposite of that for which s/he was punished. But by the principle that God allows and makes all things happen, no one can do otherwise than what God allows/makes happen. So punishment in hell is not justified, by your own premises. I'd invite you to ditch Christian doctrine and reevaluate the spiritual experiences you have had, for I don't think Christian doctrine as it really is matches your generous impulses and your deeper insights about human life.

 

Ficeno, thankyou for your kind last sentence. I agree with your reply except for one thing. I do agree He knows what decisions we will make on the happenings of our life, and is in control of these happenings, thus in your view, destine those in advance to hell. Here is a question though. Do you know any circomstance in life that would lead some to Christ? If we blame God for allowing a accident which results in unbelieve, and ofcourse also giving God the credit for those in the same boat that come to know Him because of this same accident, then we are in a dimama. As ponted out earlier, it is up to us to respond accordingly with each event, and though God allows these events, and He knows in advance our decisions based on these events, it is not God making these decisions, and in fact, God uses much pateince to bring us to Himself. If this believe was true, why even bother making choices at all? Why try in life? Why not just all give up, sleep in and let be, be? It is because though it is true God does know the outcome, it does no less of holding us accountable. By assuming this, you are assuming another situation would of brought him to repentence, which surely is not supported by anything. So, my friend, while I do see your point, even though He is all knowing, we are still responsible and we still have that choice.

 

Ofcorse, my friend, I think we could go around and round with this as well.

 

 

Hello Stranger, I hope your move went well. Good luck settling in to Kentucky. You probably don't have time right now to hang out on here, what with boxes to unpack...! When you come back, though, here are responses to two of yours.

 

As to healing amputees: this question gets brought up a lot because losing a limb is not analogous to ailments that have psychosomatic or "hysterical" causes. Someone who has a big psychological shock can snap out of an ailment caused by hysteria, and such shocks can occur when people go to healing services, revivals, shrines, etc. To prove that God healed someone you need a case where a naturalistic explanation is not credible, and causing a new limb to grow would be such a case. Healing people who went blind or dumb or crazy or whose muscles were contorted (like NT cases of people with "withered arms" or paralytics etc.) can be accomplished by a sudden, positive shock to the underlying hysteria, so it's harder to demonstrate that such healings were caused by God. In fact they occur in many religions and thus are not evidence for Christianity.

 

As to your example about one accident victim who becomes a believer in reaction to the accident, and another who does not: your example doesn't actually offer anything new. You are still confusing the first cause of an effect with the proximate cause. The proximate cause of Joe's decision P is Joe. Everyone agrees on that. The controversy over predestination is highlighted when we ask, could Joe have chosen not-P under the same circumstances? Joe's decision P and Ruth's decision not-P are not made in causal vaccuums. Joe and Ruth bring to the moment of decision their different and unique characters, which arise from a mix of their genetic make-up, all the influences of their environments, all the components of the unique life narratives that make each of them singular individuals, and who knows what else. If you still hold your earlier statement that God wills all events (I'm combining your "cause" and "allow" components of God's causality into one divine "will"), then the chain of influences that extends backward from Joe's and Ruth's decisions all the way beyond Creation cannot have been otherwise. God's omnipotence rules out the existence of ANY causal agency that is not ultimately willed by God himself. You cannot have both an omnipotent God and creatures whose wills decide things outside God's ultimate control. So when Joe and Ruth make their decisions, they do not experience any sense of being forced by God against their wills, but God is the first cause of the chain of causes, the last link of which is their decision.

 

Christianity leaves us with several propositions (maybe their number can be reduced or some can be better worded):

1. God wills all things

2. God is the first cause of all effects and events, which include human decisions and actions

3. humans make decisions

4. humans are morally responsible for their decisions

5. humans deserve to be rewarded or punished for the decisions they make/acts they commit (I include mental acts like having faith)

6. God's rewarding or punishing humans is just

7. a necessary condition for rewards and punishments to be just is that the recipients had the ability to act otherwise than they did ( = had free will)

 

You cannot hold all of these without contradiction, as you are trying to do. You can have free will or God's sovereignty but not both.

 

Some strategies:

1. continue to be a Christian by denying one of the terms, i.e. become a Calvinist or believe in a limited or finite God

2. drop the whole belief system as entailing pseudo-problems like this one

3. hold to contradictory propositions (or propositions whose implications entail contradictions) anyway and say that they are antinomies (a term used by J.I. Packer re: God's sovereignty and human moral responsibility) or mysteries that we cannot understand because we are finite and/or sinful. A rhetorical move is to shift emphasis to an attack on the other person's character, that the unbeliever is sinful and sees such contradictions as objections because s/he does not want to submit to God. As a step in an argument this would be an ad hominem fallacy.

 

A sophisticated version of 1. is being pushed on here by Ordinary Clay, who holds that a particular take on God's foreknowledge is enough to safeguard human free will and account for God's control of all events. Centauri, BAA, I and others do not think this "take" (called Molinism) succeeds. For one, it goes against too much scripture about God's omnipotence and God's causing all things.

 

I believe of course that only 2 is really worthy, but maybe believing in a limited or finite God is the least bad of the other strategies. Emphasizing the idea that God is love and that God tries to bring people to himself might square with your perceptions, Stranger, though I still find it difficult to see how you can worship God if you imagine Him as saying "I love you and I'm dropping you into hell for eternity that I designed beforehand because you didn't worship me."

 

OK, catch you later, Stranger.

[bornagainathiest]

BAA, I hear you. I also think it's a crying shame that he'll propagate his fake religion and cruel divinity to others. It can be very threatening and scary for a fundie to come face to face with the ideas and concepts that we ex-Christians take for granted. But once he has come to that scary place, it's on him to process it like an adult and move on. When a child is raised poorly, I give that child a bit of a pass on culpability until the child comes of age. At that point, I expect the kid to get his shit sorted out--with professional aid if necessary, but sort his shit out he must. In the same way, I do very much put the blame for Stranger's utter helplessness with reality on the shoulders of those who have indoctrinated him, but I don't intend that to be a free pass for him to continue on his path now that he knows its shortcomings and evils. If someone learns what he's doing is evil and he continues doing it, then I'm not sure what else to call that person besides "evil."

 

That said, I don't expect him to just go "OMG! They're right!" and deconvert on the spot. It may take a while for him to really assimilate what he's learned. But I think that if he really does care about the truth, about what's right, about what's real, that what he's learned here will haunt him. If it never does, then he's just another guy lying for Jesus and faking it till he makes it, and I'm not sure how much of my time a willfully-ignorant fundietard merits. It took me about five years to really assimilate the things I was learning and fully reject the false god of Christianity. It might have been faster if there'd been some gracious people around me to talk to while I was questioning. So even if Stranger proves to be a lost case, I want others (lurkers, especially) to feel safe to ask those hard questions and exercise their personal sovereignty and come to those hard decisions on their own schedule. Some of these lurkers may not have made their own personal decisions for their entire lives, after all. You see what I mean? I'm not giving a free pass, but am saying that even if movement is slow and small, that it's needed.

 

Akheia,

 

As I said before, I admire and respect the gentleness of your approach to the Stranger.

 

However, as one of the prime movers in discussions with him (going back at least a year before you joined this forum) I can no longer bring myself to admire or respect him in any way. Also, I don't think you quite appreciate the threat that he represents to the mental and emotional wellbeing of anyone he influences. So, perhaps if I couch this medical terms, you'll see how dangerous I consider the Stranger to be.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Hypothetical Scenario.

 

A man visits a doctor. This man clearly displays all the worst symptoms of a highly-damaging and highly-infectious disease. The doctor tells the man that his condition is severe and recommends a course of treatment that, if maintained, has the power to cure him completely.

 

At first the man objects and denys his condition, arguing that there is nothing wrong with him. He also tries to rationalize his symptoms, claiming that everyone else is just the same as he is. Eventually, after much resistance and much argument, the man finally agrees to listen to what the doctor has to say.

 

The doctor patiently describes what the man's symptoms are, couching everything he says in as basic and as simple terms as possible, so that the man will understand. Even then, it's an uphill struggle. As well as being very much in denial of his condition, the man lacks the focus to follow even the simplest line of argument that the doctor uses. The doctor has to continually and repeatedly remind the man that the facts of his condition are fixed and not subject to the man's belief in them. The doctor also has to continually work to keep the man's attention from wandering away from his condition, onto other, irrelevant matters.

 

Over the following weeks and months the man makes a number of half-hearted attempts to understand his condition, but always seems to relapse into his old habits of denial, self-justification and the bizarre assertion that his beliefs take precedence over reality. More than once the doctor feels like giving up on his difficult patient - but persists, not only for the man's wellbeing but also for the wellbeing of anyone else who the man might infect.

 

Then, just as the doctor thinks the man is making a little progress, his patient drops a bombshell!

 

The man announces that he refuses to accept the doctor's diagnosis. He refuses to accept that that there is anything wrong with him at all. He refuses to accept even the fact that his condition exists. He also refuses to accept any of the facts the doctor has patiently explained to him.

 

Worse follows.

The man, having refused point blank to accept anything the doctor has told him now refuses to continue with any further treatment for his condition and also announces that he is cutting off all communication with the doctor.

 

Dismayed, the doctor is then horrified when the man says that he will now go out and actively infect others with his disease. There's nothing the doctor can do to stop this Typhoid Mary from contaminating others and ruining their lives.

 

This is THE worst possible outcome!

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Now Akheia, that scenario is a tad overdramatic, but I think it gets the message across.

The Stranger is not just a loose canon, he's a highly-toxic carrier of the "Religion Virus" who's going out to spread it to as many people as he can and to teach others to do the same.

 

I'm sorry, but I can feel nothing but contempt and revulsion for the man. He's made a mockery of all the time, energy and effort I put into our dialog. He's rebuffed my help and guidance. He's treated me like dirt and then has the gall to say that he loves me. He's done similar to other members who've tried to help him.

 

Lastly, please think about this.

 

If, his condition wasn't the Religion Virus but something as real and deadly as AIDS or Cholera, would you feel so well disposed towards him for refusing treatment, for denying his condition and for also going out of his way to infect others?

 

The hurt and injury Religion causes to people may not wither their physical bodies, but it's effects are just as real on their minds and hearts.

 

I hope that you and I don't fall out over this and that perhaps we can just agree to disagree about the Stranger, ok?

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

[Akheia]

I hear you, and we certainly can, dearest BAA. I'm not angry. I don't totally agree with your reasoning but I cannot deny the smackdown power of your posts

[Spectrox]

Quote

 

You know those things called science & technology - we use them in every aspect of our lives. From having a good understanding of medicine, mathematics, information technology, psychology. Without it we would all be slaves to the plough and the wheel competing like savages against nature. The thing about science is that it's the best way we have of homing in on the truth. Coupled with logic and reasoned argument, it works better than anything else. The process is called Post Axiomatic Justification. We are being two-faced if we pick and choose when to believe the science and when not to. It's ingrained in the everyday world and reality.

 

Did you know many of the first original breakthroughs in the science world came from Christians?

 

You do understand nimrod that at the time of the first large scale scinetific discoveries there was no other explanation for the universe and existence except for God right?

 

I hear this alot, especially with Issac Newton, "WELL DUH NEWTON BAR....I MEAN FIG NEWTON... I MEAN ISSAC NETWON GUY WAS A CHRISTIAN SO GAWD IS REAL."

 

There was no alternate theory at the time when this man made his discoveries, so your point is invalid. What these men unknowingly did was create a world where God was unnessesary, No star needs God to form and no economic system needs God for business transactions.

 

I forgot to complement you on this excellent insight, Kaiser.

[Ouroboros]

List of the greatest scientific breakthroughs on Wiki: http://en.wikipedia....fic_discoveries

 

Some of them were Christian, some Muslim, some pagan, some agnostic/atheist, some ...

[bornagainathiest]

I hear you, and we certainly can, dearest BAA. I'm not angry. I don't totally agree with your reasoning but I cannot deny the smackdown power of your posts

 

Ah, thank you Akheia.

 

I'm very glad that there's no bad feeling between us over this. Even though disagreements are bound to happen in all human affairs, if two people of good conscience tolerate and respect each, such disagreements will never bring about hurt or harm.

 

Having said that, there are some who MUST have their way, no matter who gets hurt and no matter how many people are harmed in the process.

Can you think of anyone around here who behaves like that, Akheia?

 

Best regards,

 

BAA.