Why Do You Remain A Christian?

[mcdaddy]

It may not be enough to pray and ask. You also have to seek out and knock against obstacles. But the main point Jesus makes in this passage is that God the Father is in charge. We should go about each day with positive expectation ( even confidence ) that things will work out - because our loving Heavenly Father is watching out for us.

 

 

I always find it interesting how convenient it is for god to sit back and wait for his followers to pray for something to happen, and then he waits for them to actually carry it out themselves.

 

 

The point is that God cannot

 

I snipped 95% of your post away, Jay, to leave only this part. LOOK AT IT.

 

YOUR GOD IS NOT OMNIPOTENT.

 

Some would even say, impotent.

 

[mcdaddy]

If your god is so damned powerful and Christian faith is so strong... why have YOU not ended poverty and war?

 

 

If you read the first book of the Bible, you will see that God giving the control of the earth over to mankind, autonomous beings created in God's image. Once the control is given over to others, obviously one is not all that powerful. So God is NOT 'damened powerful'. Not on the earth. In Heaven, yes. But not on the earth. This is the Biblical view. Once again, remember the phrase from 'Lord's Prayer' - 'Your will be done on the earth as it is in heaven.' So ending poverty and war would be done by human efforts. But strictly speaking, those are not the first priority for Christians.

 

Listed below is the amount of credible evidence yay shows that the Judeo-Christian god is more real than Zeus, Dionysus, Osiris, Apollo, etc. Look below.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Serendipity Rose]

 

This is why I keep coming here and wasting time. Occasionally I get a good laugh.

 

Seriously. Look back and actually read the words of this thread and think for yourself. Do the words that you have used here do anything to further Christianity? Do the words that you have used here do anything to show that this thing you are talking about is anything other than a figment of your imagination?

 

If you read the first book of the Bible, you will see that God giving the control of the earth over to mankind, autonomous beings created in God's image.

 

Once the control is given over to others, obviously one is not all that powerful.

 

Then it is not a god. It is your imagination and nothing more.

[centauri]

The Biblical view is that the Earth is under man's control. ( See Book of Genesis ). So much of things that happen to mankind - wars, injustice, etc. are all responsibilities of man.

Who was the source of the following commands for war and genocide?

 

Deut 20:16-17

But of the cities of these people, which the Lord thy God doth give thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth:

But thou shalt utterly destroy them; namely, the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites; as the Lord thy God hath commanded thee:

 

Since the Bible also says that God intervenes and makes some people behave in certain ways (Deut 2:30), I'm not sure how you arrive at the conclusion that the Earth is under man's control.

 

When we pray, we are inviting God to intervene into our world. "Thy will be done on the earth as it is in Heaven." The point is that God cannot intervene into our affair until He is invited to do so. We are autonomous beings and the earth is under our control.

Who invited God to intervene and kill Uzzah because he tried to keep the Ark of the Covenant from falling?

 

And when God is invited to intervene into our affair, how does He do so? Well, this is not as simple as one imagine. You see, God is Spirit and has no direct material presence in this world. ( John 4:24 ) God has to intervene primarily thru 'Spirit' or information. For example, God may influence how some people think. God may even directly tell some people to do something. So once again, much of legwork takes people.

But believers are supposed to be able to get results simply by having faith and asking.

 

John 14:12-14

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

 

I see very little evidence that believers can do what Jesus promised.

[Kaiser01]

You avoid my question JayL.

 

How does an all knowing God change is mind by prayer if he knows his future action?

[Akheia]

If you read the first book of the Bible, you will see that God giving the control of the earth over to mankind, autonomous beings created in God's image. Once the control is given over to others, obviously one is not all that powerful. So God is NOT 'damened powerful'. Not on the earth. In Heaven, yes. But not on the earth. This is the Biblical view. Once again, remember the phrase from 'Lord's Prayer' - 'Your will be done on the earth as it is in heaven.' So ending poverty and war would be done by human efforts. But strictly speaking, those are not the first priority for Christians.

So wait. He's all-powerful and works miracles, but the earth belongs to humans so he's all hands-off? How would ANY miracle not interfere with humans' sovereignty of the earth? I mean, you can't have it both ways. Either he gave the earth to humans and is letting us handle things, OR he's still very much large and in charge. If he finds your car keys and helps you figure out what restaurant to eat at, then he's perfectly able to end hunger and war. He just doesn't. Don't you wonder why?

 

That he only lends his selective aid to stuff that was pretty much going to happen anyway but never to shit that can't possibly end without concerted human effort or scientific advances lends credence to the idea that he's not real at all.

 

(By the way, the latter idea--that he's still very active but *says* that the earth is ours makes him sound like a particularly shitty micro-manager.)

[Kaiser01]

If you read the first book of the Bible, you will see that God giving the control of the earth over to mankind, autonomous beings created in God's image. Once the control is given over to others, obviously one is not all that powerful. So God is NOT 'damened powerful'. Not on the earth. In Heaven, yes. But not on the earth. This is the Biblical view. Once again, remember the phrase from 'Lord's Prayer' - 'Your will be done on the earth as it is in heaven.' So ending poverty and war would be done by human efforts. But strictly speaking, those are not the first priority for Christians.

So wait. He's all-powerful and works miracles, but the earth belongs to humans so he's all hands-off? How would ANY miracle not interfere with humans' sovereignty of the earth? I mean, you can't have it both ways. Either he gave the earth to humans and is letting us handle things, OR he's still very much large and in charge. If he finds your car keys and helps you figure out what restaurant to eat at, then he's perfectly able to end hunger and war. He just doesn't. Don't you wonder why?

 

That he only lends his selective aid to stuff that was pretty much going to happen anyway but never to shit that can't possibly end without concerted human effort or scientific advances lends credence to the idea that he's not real at all.

 

(By the way, the latter idea--that he's still very active but *says* that the earth is ours makes him sound like a particularly shitty micro-manager.)

 

He is committing theological suicide by taking this stance.

[TrueFreedom]

If your god is so damned powerful and Christian faith is so strong... why have YOU not ended poverty and war?

 

 

If you read the first book of the Bible, you will see that God giving the control of the earth over to mankind, autonomous beings created in God's image. Once the control is given over to others, obviously one is not all that powerful. So God is NOT 'damened powerful'. Not on the earth. In Heaven, yes. But not on the earth. This is the Biblical view. Once again, remember the phrase from 'Lord's Prayer' - 'Your will be done on the earth as it is in heaven.' So ending poverty and war would be done by human efforts. But strictly speaking, those are not the first priority for Christians.

 

This is a Deistic perspective, not a Theistic teaching. In other words, this is an Atheistic statement, as it portrays a creator no longer interacting with his creation.

[bdp]

'god' will get me a job, which I can do by myself, and help Tim Tebow perform at a world class level, which he can do by himself as a world class athlete. 'god' won't stop a loony acting in the ideology of 'whites are god's perfect race' from shooting up a religious gathering, slaughtering innocent people. Hell, if 'god' had just kicked up a little gust of wind and closed that side exit in the Colorado theater that massacre might never have happened. But then in the Xtian mindset we're ALL guilty and it doesn't matter how horrible or grisly our death, it only matters that we're 'right' with 'god' when it happens so we'll be with Jebus when it's all over. 'God' will fuck you up...

[JayL]

'god' won't stop a loony acting in the ideology of 'whites are god's perfect race' from shooting up a religious gathering, slaughtering innocent people. Hell, if 'god' had just kicked up a little gust of wind and closed that side exit in the Colorado theater that massacre might never have happened.

 

Read my previous posts. In that Sikh temple case, nobody prayed to Jesus to intervene and prevent that tragedy from happening. God CANNOT stop people from doing evil by their own volition.

 

In a larger perspective, God CANNOT stop people from committing evil and end up going to hell.

[JayL]

'God' will fuck you up...

 

 

I am telling you. God has nothing to do with it. You are fucking yourself up by not receiveing God's salvation that is Jesus Christ.

[JayL]

If your god is so damned powerful and Christian faith is so strong... why have YOU not ended poverty and war?

 

 

If you read the first book of the Bible, you will see that God giving the control of the earth over to mankind, autonomous beings created in God's image. Once the control is given over to others, obviously one is not all that powerful. So God is NOT 'damened powerful'. Not on the earth. In Heaven, yes. But not on the earth. This is the Biblical view. Once again, remember the phrase from 'Lord's Prayer' - 'Your will be done on the earth as it is in heaven.' So ending poverty and war would be done by human efforts. But strictly speaking, those are not the first priority for Christians.

 

This is a Deistic perspective, not a Theistic teaching. In other words, this is an Atheistic statement, as it portrays a creator no longer interacting with his creation.

 

I really don't care how you classify. I am just saying these ideas are in the Bible and they are consistent with how God acted thru human history.

[JayL]

You avoid my question JayL.

 

How does an all knowing God change is mind by prayer if he knows his future action?

 

 

That is not an easy question to answer. However I do not think it is all that relevant.

[Guest Valk0010]

 

 

In a larger perspective, God CANNOT stop people from committing evil and end up going to hell.

Then that god is not worthy of the claims he makes about himself.

 

Alpha and omega my ass.

[Serendipity Rose]

JayL, are you answering our questions using facts? Or emotion? I'm just wondering. Perhaps if you stick to the facts your arguments might be more convincing. Watch this video and give it another try.

 

Philosopher Dr. Diana Hsieh answers a question on reasoning by facts rather than emotions

 

[Xerces]

 

 

You are fucking yourself up by not receiveing God's salvation that is Jesus Christ.

 

Temper temper... Where's that good ol' xtian love?

[Xerces]

 

Read my previous posts. In that Sikh temple case, nobody prayed to Jesus to intervene and prevent that tragedy from happening. God CANNOT stop people from doing evil by their own volition.

 

In a larger perspective, God CANNOT stop people from committing evil and end up going to hell.

 

So god isn't all powerful then. Which makes god fallible. If god were real.

[Astreja]

I am telling you. God has nothing to do with it. You are fucking yourself up by not receiveing God's salvation that is Jesus Christ.

 

The creator and maintainer of Hell automatically and irrevocably has 100% responsibility for anything that happens in it. No amount of apologetics can or will change this.

 

Why do you worship such a monster, Jay? Why?

 

Why do you shame yourself by allowing Jesus to take the fall for you?

 

And why, oh why do you trust the alleged word of a god that requires a human sacrifice in order to not condemn a sentient being to an eternity of horror? What makes you so sure that such a being, if it actually existed, wouldn't just shrug, say "Heh. I lied," and pitch you headlong into the flames for shits and giggles?

 

In fact, how do you know that crap like the Sinner's Prayer and the self-loathing rantings of Paul of Tarsus aren't part of a divine test to see who has the cojones to say 'No' to the scare tactics and the immorality of substitutionary atonement? Frankly, I'd want nothing to do with anyone who claimed that they had been magically purified by the death of someone I loved.

[JayL]

In a larger perspective, God CANNOT stop people from committing evil and end up going to hell.

Then that god is not worthy of the claims he makes about himself.

 

Alpha and omega my ass.

 

What claims are you thinking of? I believe my views are based on the Bible.

[JayL]

You are fucking yourself up by not receiveing God's salvation that is Jesus Christ.

 

Temper temper... Where's that good ol' xtian love?

 

 

Yeah, I regret using poor language. I have to maintain higher standards!!!

[JayL]

Read my previous posts. In that Sikh temple case, nobody prayed to Jesus to intervene and prevent that tragedy from happening. God CANNOT stop people from doing evil by their own volition.

 

In a larger perspective, God CANNOT stop people from committing evil and end up going to hell.

 

So god isn't all powerful then. Which makes god fallible. If god were real.

 

 

I do not follow your logic. I think your conclusion is faulty. What are you thinking of??

[TrueFreedom]

If your god is so damned powerful and Christian faith is so strong... why have YOU not ended poverty and war?

 

 

If you read the first book of the Bible, you will see that God giving the control of the earth over to mankind, autonomous beings created in God's image. Once the control is given over to others, obviously one is not all that powerful. So God is NOT 'damened powerful'. Not on the earth. In Heaven, yes. But not on the earth. This is the Biblical view. Once again, remember the phrase from 'Lord's Prayer' - 'Your will be done on the earth as it is in heaven.' So ending poverty and war would be done by human efforts. But strictly speaking, those are not the first priority for Christians.

 

This is a Deistic perspective, not a Theistic teaching. In other words, this is an Atheistic statement, as it portrays a creator no longer interacting with his creation.

 

I really don't care how you classify. I am just saying these ideas are in the Bible and they are consistent with how God acted thru human history.

 

So, now the Holy Bible teaches Atheism. Interesting... Praise Buddha! Question everything!

[Kaiser01]

You avoid my question JayL.

 

How does an all knowing God change is mind by prayer if he knows his future action?

 

 

That is not an easy question to answer. However I do not think it is all that relevant.

 

It is relevant to the concept of prayer. How does prayer change Gods action if he already knows the ultimate outcome?

[Guest Valk0010]

In a larger perspective, God CANNOT stop people from committing evil and end up going to hell.

Then that god is not worthy of the claims he makes about himself.

 

Alpha and omega my ass.

 

What claims are you thinking of? I believe my views are based on the Bible.

Somehow I think your being willfully obtuse. The guy claims things like, he is the beginning and the end. No gods should be worshipped before me. The tirade he gave job! The potter and the clay.

 

Do I need to mention more?

 

If the god of the bible is not omnipotent, then when he says those things, he is as a simpleton would put it. Full of shit.

 

I get the old deal about how he can't countradict himself. That would be like us throwing cars. But the guy you described is a guy who takes a position somewhere between, not caring about doing anything and being unable to do anything.

[JayL]

The creator and maintainer of Hell automatically and irrevocably has 100% responsibility for anything that happens in it. No amount of apologetics can or will change this.

 

Why do you worship such a monster, Jay? Why?

 

Why do you shame yourself by allowing Jesus to take the fall for you?

 

And why, oh why do you trust the alleged word of a god that requires a human sacrifice in order to not condemn a sentient being to an eternity of horror? What makes you so sure that such a being, if it actually existed, wouldn't just shrug, say "Heh. I lied," and pitch you headlong into the flames for shits and giggles?

 

In fact, how do you know that crap like the Sinner's Prayer and the self-loathing rantings of Paul of Tarsus aren't part of a divine test to see who has the cojones to say 'No' to the scare tactics and the immorality of substitutionary atonement? Frankly, I'd want nothing to do with anyone who claimed that they had been magically purified by the death of someone I loved.

 

 

I just do not follow a lot of your moral arguments. But I believe you have mistaken notions about God. I am a Christian. I believe in the Gospel message. And that message is: God is Good. God is Love. Everything starts from there.

 

 

I have to mention this because other people seem to start from a notion, 'God is God. He is 'omnipotent'. He can do anything. etc. To me, that is not the Gospel message. The foundation of Christian faith is the Gospel message: God is All Good.

 

Because people seem to be somewhat enarmored with the other starting point, there are endless arguments like 'If God is all powerful why is there evil??' etc.

 

And I am saying, your starting foundation is wrong.