Why Do You Remain A Christian?

[bdp]

the thing about pentecost - EVERYONE there had to take the apostles' word that 'jesus' had really risen and that they had really seen him. No one else got to see a risen jesus but had to accept someone else's subjective experience. That's where we are right down to this day - when j talks about 'personal experiences' it comes down to subjective experience that can only be interpreted by the individual who had that experience, it has no possible relevance for anyone else. I need more than someone else's warm fuzzies.

[Guest Valk0010]

My response to the who would die for a lie arguement is, people can die for what they believed they had witnessed just fine. I am sure if you take a devoted follower of Sai Baba, or a person who claimed to saw the body and blood of christ quite literally become the body and blood of christ would do the same thing if you put a gun to there head about if they believed they witnessed it or not.

 

Testimony to the absurd can't change whether or not something is absurd or not.

[JayL]

 

"the knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them."

 

vs

 

"in secret have I said nothing."

 

So the secrets were not given to some, but he never hid the secrets... He's a lying asshole. Simple as that.

 

 

 

First of all, your anger may be quite unwarranted.

 

I, for one, am perfectly happy with my explanation that Jesus spoke everything in public and nothing in secret. What he explained to his disciples were essentially the same information as he said in public ( in parable form ). And if the general public were willing to ponder those parables hard enough and long enough, they may have figured out the same information the disciples got 'in secret'!

 

Let me explain using my QM analogy. I am teaching conclusions of quantum mechanics to a general audience using simple illustrations ( like parables ). But when it comes to my grad students ( who had been in my research group for 3 years ), I can explain the ins and outs of mathematical foundation of QM. Obviously what I am teaching to grad student is much more powerful and it is material that was not made given to the general audience. But the conclusions my grad students can draw from their understanding would be exactly same as ones general public were taught about.

 

And here comes Ouroborous and ask me about quantum mechanics material I have been teaching. So I say, well, my teaching is all in public. Go ask them. All you need to know is out there in my public address. And the O turns really angry. 'I know you have been teaching secret material to your grad students. You lying asshole!'. My reply is, 'Come on man, it is the same material. But had I explained in terms of partial differential equations, you would not understand a damn thing. Have you been working in my research group for past 3 years?? The fact is you are on the level of general public. All you can understand is out there, man. I am not teaching anything new 'in secret'.'

 

 

Of course, I doubt this parable would lessen Ouroborous's anger.....

[JayL]

the thing about pentecost - EVERYONE there had to take the apostles' word that 'jesus' had really risen and that they had really seen him. No one else got to see a risen jesus but had to accept someone else's subjective experience. That's where we are right down to this day - when j talks about 'personal experiences' it comes down to subjective experience that can only be interpreted by the individual who had that experience, it has no possible relevance for anyone else. I need more than someone else's warm fuzzies.

 

 

Suppose apostles got together and agreed to claim Jesus has resurrected. Well, if you look at the situation around Jesus' death, you find Jesus Christ has been thoroughly rejected by Jews and died most humiliating and indeed 'most cursed' of all death. He was executed as an evil criminal. And his so called apostles fled and were hiding in deep fear for their safety. Their next plan may be to make a safe getaway to Galilee. They had no allies to speak of in Jerusalem.

 

Now suppose these apostles come out in public and proclaim that Jesus has risen from dead.

 

Why wouldn't they be seen as the biggest laughing stock and then immediately arrested by the authority? Why would anyone listen to these guys??

 

Why??

[JayL]

My response to the who would die for a lie arguement is, people can die for what they believed they had witnessed just fine. I am sure if you take a devoted follower of Sai Baba, or a person who claimed to saw the body and blood of christ quite literally become the body and blood of christ would do the same thing if you put a gun to there head about if they believed they witnessed it or not.

 

Testimony to the absurd can't change whether or not something is absurd or not.

 

 

Actually with guns to one's head, a lot of people change their testimony... LOL

[TrueFreedom]

"the knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them."

 

vs

 

"in secret have I said nothing."

 

So the secrets were not given to some, but he never hid the secrets... He's a lying asshole. Simple as that.

 

 

 

First of all, your anger may be quite unwarranted.

 

I, for one, am perfectly happy with my explanation that Jesus spoke everything in public and nothing in secret. What he explained to his disciples were essentially the same information as he said in public ( in parable form ). And if the general public were willing to ponder those parables hard enough and long enough, they may have figured out the same information the disciples got 'in secret'!

 

Let me explain using my QM analogy. I am teaching conclusions of quantum mechanics to a general audience using simple illustrations ( like parables ). But when it comes to my grad students ( who had been in my research group for 3 years ), I can explain the ins and outs of mathematical foundation of QM. Obviously what I am teaching to grad student is much more powerful and it is material that was not made given to the general audience. But the conclusions my grad students can draw from their understanding would be exactly same as ones general public were taught about.

 

And here comes Ouroborous and ask me about quantum mechanics material I have been teaching. So I say, well, my teaching is all in public. Go ask them. All you need to know is out there in my public address. And the O turns really angry. 'I know you have been teaching secret material to your grad students. You lying asshole!'. My reply is, 'Come on man, it is the same material. But had I explained in terms of partial differential equations, you would not understand a damn thing. Have you been working in my research group for past 3 years?? The fact is you are on the level of general public. All you can understand is out there, man. I am not teaching anything new 'in secret'.'

 

 

Of course, I doubt this parable would lessen Ouroborous's anger.....

 

O is not angry. And you are either dumb as a box of rocks or a dishonest prick. You still have not answered how Mark 4 is not really stating that Jesus intentionally hid the truth from people, since God did not want to save them:

 

Mark 4

¹¹ He told them, “The secret of the kingdom of God has been given to you. But to those on the outside everything is said in parables ¹² so that,

 

“‘they may be ever seeing but never perceiving,

and ever hearing but never understanding;

otherwise they might turn and be forgiven!’

^[

^a

^]

[Guest Valk0010]

Jayl is being is snake oil carsaleman self again.

 

You would think, unless your deluded, that if you going to be preaching a message about eternal life, to people dumb as dirt that you would speak to them in language they would have no trouble understanding. That seems to me be deceptive as hell for people. If Jesus cared about salvation, he would have preached the same way he preached in secret and we wouldn't be having this conversation today.

 

He could of say went to the chinese who would have judging by there level of cultural development at the time, got the parables and got the message easily.

 

But instead he goes to really dumb people in palestine, speaking in ways that they don't understand about matters of the gravest importance.

 

This kind of thing cant be though of as true by any thinking person.

[TrueFreedom]

Regardless, we have no reason to trust that the gospel accounts are accurate. We have plenty of good reasons to be believe that they are not.

[JayL]

 

Hypothesis A: Jesus is totally legit. Despite the religion's bizarre similarities with the mystery religions of its time, this one's the real deal. Despite the lack of proof, everything the religion claims is true. Despite its lack of historicity, everything about it is real. Everybody convert or face hell!

 

Hypothesis B: The early church founders needed explanations for their religion and a way to keep it going, so they said whatever they had to say to keep things moving, edited the books however they needed to so they sounded authoritative, and led the church in the direction they thought they had to so it'd last. Over the last two thousand years, the religion's leaders have honed their manipulative message to a razor sheen, but this religion is no more true or valid than any other of its day. It's perfectly safe to ignore its claims and demands.

 

Hmm... which do I pick....

 

 

People like Voltaire are always appalled by 'irrationality of Christianity' and keep predicting the the faith would disappear within 50 years. But for some reason, Christianity keeps going century and century and rationalists keeps failing to 'pin it down' with their logic - in a way, like a very slippery eel it keep getting away...

[JayL]

Mark 4

¹¹ He told them, “The secret of the kingdom of God has been given to you. But to those on the outside everything is said in parables ¹² so that,

 

“‘they may be ever seeing but never perceiving,

and ever hearing but never understanding;

otherwise they might turn and be forgiven!’

^[

^a

^]

 

 

JayL Chapter 4 ¹¹ I told my student, “The powerful mathematics behind the Quantum Mechanics has been given to you. But to those on the outside everything is said in simple illustrations ¹² so that,

 

“‘they may be ever seeing but never perceiving,

and ever hearing but never understanding;

otherwise they might go out and build themselves an atomic bomb!

[TrueFreedom]

Mark 4

¹¹ He told them, “The secret of the kingdom of God has been given to you. But to those on the outside everything is said in parables ¹² so that,

 

“‘they may be ever seeing but never perceiving,

and ever hearing but never understanding;

otherwise they might turn and be forgiven!’

^[

^a

^]

 

 

JayL Chapter 4 ¹¹ I told my student, “The powerful mathematics behind the Quantum Mechanics has been given to you. But to those on the outside everything is said in simple illustrations ¹² so that,

 

“‘they may be ever seeing but never perceiving,

and ever hearing but never understanding;

otherwise they might go out and build themselves an atomic bomb!

 

No, "otherwise they might turn and be forgiven!"

 

Big difference between avoiding the wrath of God or avoiding the creation of an atomic bomb!

 

And, in case you haven't heard, somebody built an atomic bomb! And dropped a couple!

[JayL]

 

Does anything happen that is outside God's control? No?

 

 

 

 

Is this a joke question?? Have you been reading any of my posts? Of course, PLENTY of things happen outside God's control - like ALL of evil that happen on the earth!

[Guest Valk0010]

My response to the who would die for a lie arguement is, people can die for what they believed they had witnessed just fine. I am sure if you take a devoted follower of Sai Baba, or a person who claimed to saw the body and blood of christ quite literally become the body and blood of christ would do the same thing if you put a gun to there head about if they believed they witnessed it or not.

 

Testimony to the absurd can't change whether or not something is absurd or not.

 

 

Actually with guns to one's head, a lot of people change their testimony... LOL

Well your thick if you don't get the point there.

 

You say the apostles would have died for there convictions. I am saying that there are other people besides the apostles with that kind of conviction.

 

For example, sai baba, had a million people visit him on his birthday.

 

The other was a catholic miracle that you could still see today in europe.

[Guest Valk0010]

Does anything happen that is outside God's control? No?

 

 

 

 

Is this a joke question?? Have you been reading any of my posts? Of course, PLENTY of things happen outside God's control - like ALL of evil that happen on the earth!

Sure and his lack of control over that proves his ineptitude.

 

A omnibenevolent god who hates sin and evil, yet creates the world in such a way where the odds are on more and more of what he hates occuring.

 

Last I checked most people avoid there pet peeves, but this god you so love, throws himself right into them.

 

Rational?

 

No.

[Guest Valk0010]

Hypothesis A: Jesus is totally legit. Despite the religion's bizarre similarities with the mystery religions of its time, this one's the real deal. Despite the lack of proof, everything the religion claims is true. Despite its lack of historicity, everything about it is real. Everybody convert or face hell!

 

Hypothesis B: The early church founders needed explanations for their religion and a way to keep it going, so they said whatever they had to say to keep things moving, edited the books however they needed to so they sounded authoritative, and led the church in the direction they thought they had to so it'd last. Over the last two thousand years, the religion's leaders have honed their manipulative message to a razor sheen, but this religion is no more true or valid than any other of its day. It's perfectly safe to ignore its claims and demands.

 

Hmm... which do I pick....

 

 

People like Voltaire are always appalled by 'irrationality of Christianity' and keep predicting the the faith would disappear within 50 years. But for some reason, Christianity keeps going century and century and rationalists keeps failing to 'pin it down' with their logic - in a way, like a very slippery eel it keep getting away...

That is because emotions suck, that and cult activity still works.

 

Its anthropological in nature, why christianity stays around.

 

"Faith is a control mechanism" as its sometimes said.

 

Religion is designed by its very nature to survive.

[JayL]

Everything, absolutely everything good or bad in my life can be attributed to other people. To give God the credit for what someone else does is a horrendous rip-off for that individual. I refuse to operate that way.

 

 

I may be naive. But I often thank God for the fresh air I can breathe in.

[JayL]

 

A omnibenevolent god who hates sin and evil, yet creates the world in such a way where the odds are on more and more of what he hates occuring.

 

Last I checked most people avoid there pet peeves, but this god you so love, throws himself right into them.

 

Rational?

 

No.

 

 

You see, God is not like you and me. He is very, very, in fact extremely confident, for one thing....

[Guest Valk0010]

A omnibenevolent god who hates sin and evil, yet creates the world in such a way where the odds are on more and more of what he hates occuring.

 

Last I checked most people avoid there pet peeves, but this god you so love, throws himself right into them.

 

Rational?

 

No.

 

 

You see, God is not like you and me. He is very, very, in fact extremely confident, for one thing....

And its logical how?

 

Either he is omnibenevolent and hates sin or he is not.

 

You can't have your cake and eat it too.

[Guest Valk0010]

If evil was around before the existence of satan or earth, then god by creating satan and earth is responsible for the spread of evil. Sure you could say ohh its satans fault or our fault, but god created both satan and earth in such a way where evil could be increased. That means he can't hate sin and can't be omni benevolent and can't be perfectly good. You can't be perfectly good and even indirectly create evil.

[centauri]

I, for one, am perfectly happy with my explanation that Jesus spoke everything in public and nothing in secret. What he explained to his disciples were essentially the same information as he said in public ( in parable form ). And if the general public were willing to ponder those parables hard enough and long enough, they may have figured out the same information the disciples got 'in secret'!

What you're ignoring is that Jesus stated the purpose of the parables was to keep some people confused.

He only revealed the meaning in private, to select members of his inner circle.

That contradicts his testimony to the high priest.

You're trying to shift the burden of responsibility from Jesus to the crowds.

If only they had tried real hard, they might have eventually figured out the meaning.

If someone babbles away in tongues, while claiming to be speaking openly, I seriously doubt you would be rationalizing that the listeners could have figured out what it meant on their own.

[JayL]

You can't be perfectly good and even indirectly create evil.

 

What do you mean by 'indirectly creating'? Either something is created or it is not created. What is 'indirectly created'?

 

 

God did not create evil. God created Freedom - which may seem like a very dangerous thing to you and me. But God is ultra confident. He is confident enough to create free agents which can even turn evil on their own.

 

 

Even when a major free agent like Lucifer turned evil and took over the earth, God remained perfectly good and judges Lucifer with perfect justice.

[centauri]

the thing about pentecost - EVERYONE there had to take the apostles' word that 'jesus' had really risen and that they had really seen him. No one else got to see a risen jesus but had to accept someone else's subjective experience. That's where we are right down to this day - when j talks about 'personal experiences' it comes down to subjective experience that can only be interpreted by the individual who had that experience, it has no possible relevance for anyone else. I need more than someone else's warm fuzzies.

 

 

Suppose apostles got together and agreed to claim Jesus has resurrected. Well, if you look at the situation around Jesus' death, you find Jesus Christ has been thoroughly rejected by Jews and died most humiliating and indeed 'most cursed' of all death. He was executed as an evil criminal. And his so called apostles fled and were hiding in deep fear for their safety. Their next plan may be to make a safe getaway to Galilee. They had no allies to speak of in Jerusalem.

 

Now suppose these apostles come out in public and proclaim that Jesus has risen from dead.

 

Why wouldn't they be seen as the biggest laughing stock and then immediately arrested by the authority? Why would anyone listen to these guys??

 

Why??

According to the Gospel of Matthew, many dead people were resurrected and strolled into Jerusalem when Jesus died and they were seen by the public.

Would you like to explain why people would laugh at the apostles when they had already been exposed to dead people having come back to life?

 

According to Luke, believers had no problem telling even strangers about Jesus being resurrected.

The recent adventures of Jesus being a miracle worker who was crucified were common knowledge in Jerusalem.

 

Luke 24:17-24

And he(Jesus disguised) said unto them, What manner of communications are these that ye have one to another, as ye walk, and are sad?

And the one of them, whose name was Cleopas, answering said unto him, Art thou only a stranger in Jerusalem, and hast not known the things which are come to pass there in these days?

And he said unto them, What things? And they said unto him, Concerning Jesus of Nazareth, which was a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people:

And how the chief priests and our rulers delivered him to be condemned to death, and have crucified him.

But we trusted that it had been he which should have redeemed Israel: and beside all this, to day is the third day since these things were done.

Yea, and certain women also of our company made us astonished, which were early at the sepulchre;

And when they found not his body, they came, saying, that they had also seen a vision of angels, which said that he was alive.

And certain of them which were with us went to the sepulchre, and found it even so as the women had said: but him they saw not.

[JayL]

the thing about pentecost - EVERYONE there had to take the apostles' word that 'jesus' had really risen and that they had really seen him. No one else got to see a risen jesus but had to accept someone else's subjective experience. That's where we are right down to this day - when j talks about 'personal experiences' it comes down to subjective experience that can only be interpreted by the individual who had that experience, it has no possible relevance for anyone else. I need more than someone else's warm fuzzies.

 

 

Suppose apostles got together and agreed to claim Jesus has resurrected. Well, if you look at the situation around Jesus' death, you find Jesus Christ has been thoroughly rejected by Jews and died most humiliating and indeed 'most cursed' of all death. He was executed as an evil criminal. And his so called apostles fled and were hiding in deep fear for their safety. Their next plan may be to make a safe getaway to Galilee. They had no allies to speak of in Jerusalem.

 

Now suppose these apostles come out in public and proclaim that Jesus has risen from dead.

 

Why wouldn't they be seen as the biggest laughing stock and then immediately arrested by the authority? Why would anyone listen to these guys??

 

Why??

According to the Gospel of Matthew, many dead people were resurrected and strolled into Jerusalem when Jesus died and they were seen by the public.

Would you like to explain why people would laugh at the apostles when they had already been exposed to dead people having come back to life?

 

According to Luke, believers had no problem telling even strangers about Jesus being resurrected.

The recent adventures of Jesus being a miracle worker who was crucified were common knowledge in Jerusalem.

 

Luke 24:17-24

And he(Jesus disguised) said unto them, What manner of communications are these that ye have one to another, as ye walk, and are sad?

And the one of them, whose name was Cleopas, answering said unto him, Art thou only a stranger in Jerusalem, and hast not known the things which are come to pass there in these days?

And he said unto them, What things? And they said unto him, Concerning Jesus of Nazareth, which was a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people:

And how the chief priests and our rulers delivered him to be condemned to death, and have crucified him.

But we trusted that it had been he which should have redeemed Israel: and beside all this, to day is the third day since these things were done.

Yea, and certain women also of our company made us astonished, which were early at the sepulchre;

And when they found not his body, they came, saying, that they had also seen a vision of angels, which said that he was alive.

And certain of them which were with us went to the sepulchre, and found it even so as the women had said: but him they saw not.

 

 

 

Yes, we can see that the Biblical account truly happened ! That is why they did not end up as the laughingstock of Jerusalem.

[TrueFreedom]

 

Yes, we can see that the Biblical account truly happened ! That is why they did not end up as the laughingstock of Jerusalem.

 

The church in Jerusalem stayed Jewish. Pauls new gnostic religion prospered amongst the Gentiles by design. You belong to a Roman pagan invention, not the Hebrew teachings of Y'shua of Galilee.

[Guest Valk0010]

the thing about pentecost - EVERYONE there had to take the apostles' word that 'jesus' had really risen and that they had really seen him. No one else got to see a risen jesus but had to accept someone else's subjective experience. That's where we are right down to this day - when j talks about 'personal experiences' it comes down to subjective experience that can only be interpreted by the individual who had that experience, it has no possible relevance for anyone else. I need more than someone else's warm fuzzies.

 

 

Suppose apostles got together and agreed to claim Jesus has resurrected. Well, if you look at the situation around Jesus' death, you find Jesus Christ has been thoroughly rejected by Jews and died most humiliating and indeed 'most cursed' of all death. He was executed as an evil criminal. And his so called apostles fled and were hiding in deep fear for their safety. Their next plan may be to make a safe getaway to Galilee. They had no allies to speak of in Jerusalem.

 

Now suppose these apostles come out in public and proclaim that Jesus has risen from dead.

 

Why wouldn't they be seen as the biggest laughing stock and then immediately arrested by the authority? Why would anyone listen to these guys??

 

Why??

According to the Gospel of Matthew, many dead people were resurrected and strolled into Jerusalem when Jesus died and they were seen by the public.

Would you like to explain why people would laugh at the apostles when they had already been exposed to dead people having come back to life?

 

According to Luke, believers had no problem telling even strangers about Jesus being resurrected.

The recent adventures of Jesus being a miracle worker who was crucified were common knowledge in Jerusalem.

 

Luke 24:17-24

And he(Jesus disguised) said unto them, What manner of communications are these that ye have one to another, as ye walk, and are sad?

And the one of them, whose name was Cleopas, answering said unto him, Art thou only a stranger in Jerusalem, and hast not known the things which are come to pass there in these days?

And he said unto them, What things? And they said unto him, Concerning Jesus of Nazareth, which was a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people:

And how the chief priests and our rulers delivered him to be condemned to death, and have crucified him.

But we trusted that it had been he which should have redeemed Israel: and beside all this, to day is the third day since these things were done.

Yea, and certain women also of our company made us astonished, which were early at the sepulchre;

And when they found not his body, they came, saying, that they had also seen a vision of angels, which said that he was alive.

And certain of them which were with us went to the sepulchre, and found it even so as the women had said: but him they saw not.

 

 

 

Yes, we can see that the Biblical account truly happened ! That is why they did not end up as the laughingstock of Jerusalem.

From all the evidence I have seen, they didn't even get laughed at. They just simply weren't taken seriously at all. Hence why you notice, that christianity took hold mostly where Paul supposedly preached. Where this pseudo pagan judiasm could catch hold.