centauri Posted August 18, 2012 Share Posted August 18, 2012 "He said he was intentionally talking in riddles" Riddles? We went from parables to riddles?? I don't think they are quite the same! LOL The intent of Jesus was to confuse some people so that they would not understand. You keep ignoring this: Mark 4:11(NLT) He replied, “You are permitted to understand the secret of the Kingdom of God. But I use parables for everything I say to outsiders, so that the Scriptures might be fulfilled: 'When they see what I do, they will learn nothing. When they hear what I say, they will not understand. Otherwise, they will turn to me and be forgiven.’” OK, so what Hans is saying is this: Jesus should have told his disciples exactly the same things, the same words he told to general public. If he explained anything more to his disciples, using different words, he cannot claim that all his teachings are out in the open. You're ignoring the context and the problem. Jesus deliberately used parables for the purpose of creating misundertanding. Teaching with the intent to confuse is not teaching openly, it's obfuscation. If people did understand, they might be forgiven, and Jesus didn't want that. The secret meanings were only explained to his inner circle in private. This episode was a clumsy attempt to manufacture a fulfillment for Jesus by the writers, but the Gospel of John trips Jesus up in a contradiction. The actual scripture was fulfilled by Isaiah hundreds of years before Jesus appeared. And I am saying Jesus is not teaching anything different to his disciples. He is NOT taling riddles and he is not saying one thing to the crowd and another thing to his disciples. It is same proclamation about the Kingdom of God. The teachings of Jesus is out there in the open. He spoke "openly" only in the sense that he publicly taught with the intent to create misunderstanding. He didn't speak openly about the real intent and purpose of the parables. Now given that the disciples have made their commitment to share his ministry and have been with him for years, he had a lot more opportunities to answer their questions and to explain his teachings more fully. Yes, some of those explanations may be quite powerful - 'the secrets of the Kingdom'. But isn't the same information in the parables? The parables were given to the public to create misunderstanding. The secrets or real meaning was obscured from the public and only disclosed to his inner circle, and this was done in private. If some in the general public really thought deeply about the parables, they may have reached those same 'secrets of the kingdom'. Jesus is not teaching anything different to his disciples. He is explaining a lot more to his disciples because they are ready to dig deeper. It isn't a lack of desire that keeps the public from understanding. He explains it to the disciples because they're allowed to understand it, the others are not. Matt 13:10-15 And the disciples came, and said unto him(Jesus), Why speakest thou unto them in parables? He(Jesus) answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator TrueFreedom Posted August 18, 2012 Moderator Share Posted August 18, 2012 Once again, if not too intrusive a question, why were you looking for God? Christian family. Culture. Felt right at the time. Thought my parents had the truth. Wanted to believe because they believed. So are your parents still Christians or have they given up as well? Just saw this: "given up" Do you honestly believe that everyone who was grown out of Christianity has simply "given up?" What do you think we gave up on? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
★ Citsonga ★ Posted August 18, 2012 Share Posted August 18, 2012 Jay clearly doesn't give a shit what the Bible actually says. If he did, then he wouldn't continually ignore the clear passages that have been repeatedly brought up. I used to think that Jay was simply misguided, but I'm starting to think that the "troll" label being tossed around may be more accurate. Carry on, y'all.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcdaddy Posted August 18, 2012 Share Posted August 18, 2012 I've absolutely, irrecovably, permanently given up on Jay. NO amount of evidence will ever convince his childish mind that e could be in error. I'm done talking to that religious fundtard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Akheia Posted August 18, 2012 Share Posted August 18, 2012 I voted "troll" some time ago. Nobody can be that stupid or that incapable of using ration and logic. Ficino: I'm not sure there could be any other explanation for "who moved the stone" than what you describe. When I was fundie, I bought into that because I literally didn't know there is absolutely no evidence for a single part of the crucifixion/resurrection story. I thought there was but I was just young and didn't know it yet. Well, I'm not-so-young now and there still isn't any proof of it. Blew my mind when I found out way back when, though. I was shocked, genuinely shocked. What the fuck do they MEAN, no proof of any of it, not to mention there was actually proof against it? Nobody moved the stone until someone can show evidence of there being a stone, a body, a trial, a death, etc. There were no 12 Apostles, no boy-wonder Kodak moment at the temple, no baptism by John, no rock-star-level miracles all over the region, no sermon on the mount, no triumphant ride into Jerusalem, no parables, no mystery convocation of Sanhedrin, no trial, no release of a condemned murderer in exchange for a mere Jewish rabble-raiser, no zombie uprising after the crucifixion, no resurrection, no stone to be moved, no speaking in tongues, no miracles. Every one of these things would have left behind evidence. I perceive that the evidence *does* support this hypothesis: the story of the resurrection got spun some time after the time of "Jesus" by conflating the stories of various god-men running around Judea at the time and those of other pagan religions' saviors (is Jay so recklessly and willfully ignorant that he imagines Jesus was the *only* such pagan god-man-savior in that age?). My hypothesis makes the fewest assumptions, and is the simplest explanation that *does* fit available facts. Who knows what goes into creating a religious myth? Surely the first person to put pen to paper has some inkling of the proof or non-proof of the matter. Nowadays I'd say that people who do that, like Joseph Smith and L. Ron Hubbard, are evil con men. Back then though humanity had different standards for judging facts and evaluating claims. Once the story was loose, then people bought into it like crazy. One can be very sincere, yet very sincerely wrong. Nowadays we inflate intention to the point where it outweighs truth or results. Just trying hard means more than actually succeeding. Just putting forth minimal effort invalidates whether or not you actually accomplished anything. Plenty of people believe things very sincerely that are completely erroneous, if Fox News' comments pages are anything to go by. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymistake Posted August 18, 2012 Share Posted August 18, 2012 Snip of an awesome argument. I wish I could give you a thousand points for that one. Who knows what goes into creating a religious myth? Surely the first person to put pen to paper has some inkling of the proof or non-proof of the matter. In my opinion Paul saw Jesus Christ as a spirit creature that had not lived on Earth. Mark was probably the first gospel but I think it was written as a novel. It has too many similarities with Homer's Odyssey. Perhaps a Christian took the original and changed it around a bit. Then the changed version was fleshed out to make Matthew and Luke. Nowadays I'd say that people who do that, like Joseph Smith and L. Ron Hubbard, are evil con men. Back then though humanity had different standards for judging facts and evaluating claims. Once the story was loose, then people bought into it like crazy. One can be very sincere, yet very sincerely wrong. Nowadays we inflate intention to the point where it outweighs truth or results. Just trying hard means more than actually succeeding. Just putting forth minimal effort invalidates whether or not you actually accomplished anything. Plenty of people believe things very sincerely that are completely erroneous, if Fox News' comments pages are anything to go by. I think nobody would be Christian today if it were not for the Roman Empire choosing that religion as their tool to unify culture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymistake Posted August 18, 2012 Share Posted August 18, 2012 Does anything happen that is outside God's control? No? Is this a joke question?? Have you been reading any of my posts? Of course, PLENTY of things happen outside God's control - like ALL of evil that happen on the earth! Is your God all-powerful or not? Does he intervene in the affairs of man or not? I believe Obvious Troll has already commited himself on that question. Didn't he say human choices are out of God's control. That would mean God is not all powerful. Of course OT can change his position like the changing of the wind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centauri Posted August 18, 2012 Share Posted August 18, 2012 What important teaching did Jesus give only to his disciples and not to the general public?? What important teaching was missed by the general public?? The secret teaching of a violent purge, where Jesus sends out his drones on a mass killing spree, was not disclosed to the public by Jesus. Matt 13:36-42 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field. He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaiser01 Posted August 18, 2012 Share Posted August 18, 2012 Dont feed the trolls... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayL Posted August 18, 2012 Share Posted August 18, 2012 "He said he was intentionally talking in riddles" Riddles? We went from parables to riddles?? I don't think they are quite the same! LOL The intent of Jesus was to confuse some people so that they would not understand. You keep ignoring this: Mark 4:11(NLT) He replied, “You are permitted to understand the secret of the Kingdom of God. But I use parables for everything I say to outsiders, so that the Scriptures might be fulfilled: 'When they see what I do, they will learn nothing. When they hear what I say, they will not understand. Otherwise, they will turn to me and be forgiven.’” OK, so what Hans is saying is this: Jesus should have told his disciples exactly the same things, the same words he told to general public. If he explained anything more to his disciples, using different words, he cannot claim that all his teachings are out in the open. You're ignoring the context and the problem. Jesus deliberately used parables for the purpose of creating misundertanding. Teaching with the intent to confuse is not teaching openly, it's obfuscation. If people did understand, they might be forgiven, and Jesus didn't want that. The secret meanings were only explained to his inner circle in private. This episode was a clumsy attempt to manufacture a fulfillment for Jesus by the writers, but the Gospel of John trips Jesus up in a contradiction. The actual scripture was fulfilled by Isaiah hundreds of years before Jesus appeared. And I am saying Jesus is not teaching anything different to his disciples. He is NOT taling riddles and he is not saying one thing to the crowd and another thing to his disciples. It is same proclamation about the Kingdom of God. The teachings of Jesus is out there in the open. He spoke "openly" only in the sense that he publicly taught with the intent to create misunderstanding. He didn't speak openly about the real intent and purpose of the parables. Now given that the disciples have made their commitment to share his ministry and have been with him for years, he had a lot more opportunities to answer their questions and to explain his teachings more fully. Yes, some of those explanations may be quite powerful - 'the secrets of the Kingdom'. But isn't the same information in the parables? The parables were given to the public to create misunderstanding. The secrets or real meaning was obscured from the public and only disclosed to his inner circle, and this was done in private. If some in the general public really thought deeply about the parables, they may have reached those same 'secrets of the kingdom'. Jesus is not teaching anything different to his disciples. He is explaining a lot more to his disciples because they are ready to dig deeper. It isn't a lack of desire that keeps the public from understanding. He explains it to the disciples because they're allowed to understand it, the others are not. Matt 13:10-15 And the disciples came, and said unto him(Jesus), Why speakest thou unto them in parables? He(Jesus) answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given. I don't know how many times I have to go over this point. If parables were given to create misunderstanding, you are accusing Jesus of deceiving and lying to people - perhaps greater offense than 'false testimony' given to high priest. Now let's read the following passage carefully. You will find the situation to be very close to my quantum mechanics analogy. Matthew 13:10-15 10 Then the disciples came to Him and said, Why do You speak to them in parables? 11 And He replied to them, To you it has been given to know the secrets and mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given. 12 For whoever has [spiritual knowledge], to him will more be given and he will [c]be furnished richly so that he will have abundance; but from him who has not, even what he has will be taken away. 13 This is the reason that I speak to them in parables: because [d]having the power of seeing, they do not see; and [e]having the power of hearing, they do not hear, nor do they grasp and understand. 14 In them indeed is [f]the process of fulfillment of the prophecy of Isaiah, which says: You shall indeed hear and hear but never grasp and understand; and you shall indeed look and look but never see and perceive. 15 For this nation’s heart has grown gross (fat and dull), and their ears heavy and difficult of hearing, and their eyes they have tightly closed, lest they see and perceive with their eyes, and hear and comprehend the sense with their ears, and grasp and understand with their heart, and turn and I should heal them. Here is the point Jesus is making: The reason the general public do not understand the parables is because they have grown spiritually dull. So even the holy parables they hear will diminish in its effect. But the disciples who made the commitment to follow Jesus and have grown spiritually will be able to perceive the meaning ( with additional explanation from Jesus.. ) This is just like my quantum mechanics analogy. There is no deception going on to 'create misunderstanding'. The truths Jesus is trying to teach them is way above their spiritual level - just like the mathematical formalism behind quantum mechanics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayL Posted August 18, 2012 Share Posted August 18, 2012 What important teaching did Jesus give only to his disciples and not to the general public?? What important teaching was missed by the general public?? The secret teaching of a violent purge, where Jesus sends out his drones on a mass killing spree, was not disclosed to the public by Jesus. Matt 13:36-42 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field. He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. The same teaching was given to the general public!!!! ( in parable form ) When those weeds are gathered and burned, how do you think they would feel?? They will be wailing and gnashing their teeth!!! 24 Another parable He set forth before them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field. 25 But while he was sleeping, his enemy came and sowed also darnel (weeds resembling wheat) among the wheat, and went on his way. 26 So when the plants sprouted and formed grain, the darnel (weeds) appeared also. 27 And the servants of the owner came to him and said, Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? Then how does it have darnel shoots in it? 28 He replied to them, An enemy has done this. The servants said to him, Then do you want us to go and weed them out? 29 But he said, No, lest in gathering the wild wheat (weeds resembling wheat), you root up the [true] wheat along with it. 30 Let them grow together until the harvest; and at harvest time I will say to the reapers, Gather the darnel first and bind it in bundles to be burned, but gather the wheat into my granary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayL Posted August 18, 2012 Share Posted August 18, 2012 Does anything happen that is outside God's control? No? Is this a joke question?? Have you been reading any of my posts? Of course, PLENTY of things happen outside God's control - like ALL of evil that happen on the earth! Is your God all-powerful or not? Does he intervene in the affairs of man or not? I believe Obvious Troll has already commited himself on that question. Didn't he say human choices are out of God's control. That would mean God is not all powerful. Of course OT can change his position like the changing of the wind. You are getting closer to the truth, grasshopper ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymistake Posted August 18, 2012 Share Posted August 18, 2012 Dont feed the trolls... Perhaps it is time for this thread to be locked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayL Posted August 18, 2012 Share Posted August 18, 2012 Once again, if not too intrusive a question, why were you looking for God? Christian family. Culture. Felt right at the time. Thought my parents had the truth. Wanted to believe because they believed. So are your parents still Christians or have they given up as well? Just saw this: "given up" Do you honestly believe that everyone who was grown out of Christianity has simply "given up?" What do you think we gave up on? I meant giving up one's faith. They used to believe in Jesus Christ as the Divine Son of God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Akheia Posted August 18, 2012 Share Posted August 18, 2012 Babe, I didn't "give it up." I threw it out the window with the greatest force I could muster, the same as I'd do with anything toxic and evil I discovered in my home. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
★ Citsonga ★ Posted August 18, 2012 Share Posted August 18, 2012 Why have people "given up" on Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Valk0010 Posted August 18, 2012 Share Posted August 18, 2012 I try not to say things like this in this context because its the lowest common denominator. But jay your one dumb fuck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayL Posted August 18, 2012 Share Posted August 18, 2012 Well here is why I agree with hans. Lets say that the mass population of a country doesn't understand what a watch is. Lets say that this watch is key to eternal bliss. Lets say Prophet X starts giving out these watches to people. Prophet X only tells them it works like a sundial and has gears. Prophet X gives 12 watches to his friends and makes sure they all get what the watch is for and how it works. That suitation I described there, is more or less the exact thing jesus did with his teachings. And that is quiet honestly not having all your teachings out in the open. It just isn't. What important teaching did Jesus give only to his disciples and not to the general public?? What important teaching was missed by the general public?? ( Perhaps this is a good question to Hans as well ! ) You mean you want me to quote the Bible again, and you not reading it... Again? In other words, just a waste of time. Read the Bible instead. You might learn what I'm saying since you don't understand me anyway. This whole back and forth arguments with Hans and others about whether Jesus gave a 'false testimony' to high priest remind me of Seinfeld episode about birthday party. There, George attends a birthday party for the son of a woman he is dating. And the kitchen fire occurs and he escapes pushing away old lady and stepping on children. Later he is confronted by the angry crowd. Hans asks, so what about this passage from Mark where Jesus talks in parable 'so that they may hear but no understand'??? Aha, I got ya. So I reply, 'Yes, seemingly, seemingly, to untrained eyes, one may get that impression. But let's look at the Matthew passage.... But I believe I have done a far better job than George and made an excellent case. And once again, the slippery eel gets away.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
★ Citsonga ★ Posted August 18, 2012 Share Posted August 18, 2012 Yup, George twisted the story just like Jay twists the Bible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcdaddy Posted August 18, 2012 Share Posted August 18, 2012 I try not to say things like this in this context because its the lowest common denominator. But jay your one dumb fuck. Thank you kindly for meeting me where I am, Valk. Jay is ONE. DUMB. FUCK. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centauri Posted August 18, 2012 Share Posted August 18, 2012 "He said he was intentionally talking in riddles" Riddles? We went from parables to riddles?? I don't think they are quite the same! LOL The intent of Jesus was to confuse some people so that they would not understand. You keep ignoring this: Mark 4:11(NLT) He replied, “You are permitted to understand the secret of the Kingdom of God. But I use parables for everything I say to outsiders, so that the Scriptures might be fulfilled: 'When they see what I do, they will learn nothing. When they hear what I say, they will not understand. Otherwise, they will turn to me and be forgiven.’” OK, so what Hans is saying is this: Jesus should have told his disciples exactly the same things, the same words he told to general public. If he explained anything more to his disciples, using different words, he cannot claim that all his teachings are out in the open. You're ignoring the context and the problem. Jesus deliberately used parables for the purpose of creating misundertanding. Teaching with the intent to confuse is not teaching openly, it's obfuscation. If people did understand, they might be forgiven, and Jesus didn't want that. The secret meanings were only explained to his inner circle in private. This episode was a clumsy attempt to manufacture a fulfillment for Jesus by the writers, but the Gospel of John trips Jesus up in a contradiction. The actual scripture was fulfilled by Isaiah hundreds of years before Jesus appeared. And I am saying Jesus is not teaching anything different to his disciples. He is NOT taling riddles and he is not saying one thing to the crowd and another thing to his disciples. It is same proclamation about the Kingdom of God. The teachings of Jesus is out there in the open. He spoke "openly" only in the sense that he publicly taught with the intent to create misunderstanding. He didn't speak openly about the real intent and purpose of the parables. Now given that the disciples have made their commitment to share his ministry and have been with him for years, he had a lot more opportunities to answer their questions and to explain his teachings more fully. Yes, some of those explanations may be quite powerful - 'the secrets of the Kingdom'. But isn't the same information in the parables? The parables were given to the public to create misunderstanding. The secrets or real meaning was obscured from the public and only disclosed to his inner circle, and this was done in private. If some in the general public really thought deeply about the parables, they may have reached those same 'secrets of the kingdom'. Jesus is not teaching anything different to his disciples. He is explaining a lot more to his disciples because they are ready to dig deeper. It isn't a lack of desire that keeps the public from understanding. He explains it to the disciples because they're allowed to understand it, the others are not. Matt 13:10-15 And the disciples came, and said unto him(Jesus), Why speakest thou unto them in parables? He(Jesus) answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given. I don't know how many times I have to go over this point. If parables were given to create misunderstanding, you are accusing Jesus of deceiving and lying to people - perhaps greater offense than 'false testimony' given to high priest. (Just to clarify a bit....I respond for the benefit of any lurkers that may have encountered apologetics like the type seen here.) The parables were used to keep some people from understanding. Those are the words put in the mouth of your Lord by the New Testament writers. He was trying to keep some people from understanding. Jesus intentionally taught in that manner to "fulfill scripture". He came right out and admitted it in Mark 4. The problem is that nothing can interfere with the "sweet Jesus" cardboard cutout that you are so spiritually invested in. That imaginary, wishful thinking, stereotype of Jesus doesn't mean jack squat to me. I'm not interested in what you want Jesus to be any more than I care about what flavor of ice cream you think is best. Now let's read the following passage carefully. You will find the situation to be very close to my quantum mechanics analogy. Matthew 13:10-15 10 Then the disciples came to Him and said, Why do You speak to them in parables? 11 And He replied to them, To you it has been given to know the secrets and mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given. 12 For whoever has [spiritual knowledge], to him will more be given and he will [c]be furnished richly so that he will have abundance; but from him who has not, even what he has will be taken away. 13 This is the reason that I speak to them in parables: because [d]having the power of seeing, they do not see; and [e]having the power of hearing, they do not hear, nor do they grasp and understand. 14 In them indeed is [f]the process of fulfillment of the prophecy of Isaiah, which says: You shall indeed hear and hear but never grasp and understand; and you shall indeed look and look but never see and perceive. 15 For this nation’s heart has grown gross (fat and dull), and their ears heavy and difficult of hearing, and their eyes they have tightly closed, lest they see and perceive with their eyes, and hear and comprehend the sense with their ears, and grasp and understand with their heart, and turn and I should heal them. Here is the point Jesus is making: The reason the general public do not understand the parables is because they have grown spiritually dull. Stop right there. The outsiders have not been given the special knowledge needed to understand the secret message. They are not permitted to understand per Mark 4. This is intentional. The scripture of Isaiah, which Jesus claims to be fulfilling, instructs the messenger to make people dull. Isa 6:9-10 And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not. Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed. So even the holy parables they hear will diminish in its effect. But the disciples who made the commitment to follow Jesus and have grown spiritually will be able to perceive the meaning ( with additional explanation from Jesus.. ) This is just like my quantum mechanics analogy. There is no deception going on to 'create misunderstanding'. The truths Jesus is trying to teach them is way above their spiritual level - just like the mathematical formalism behind quantum mechanics. The parables are intentionally above the understanding of outsiders. Jesus intentionally keeps them from grasping the secrets of the kingdom by using parables. Jesus states that he used parables to fulfill scripture, which gives explicit instructions for the messenger to create misunderstanding, which in turn would keep people from converting. That was part of God's plan leading to the exile. The New Testament writers ripped this completely out of context and stuffed the words into the mouth of Jesus, in an attempt to show him fulfilling prophecy. You're now stuck with the ramifications of their clumsy, out of context narrative. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centauri Posted August 18, 2012 Share Posted August 18, 2012 What important teaching did Jesus give only to his disciples and not to the general public?? What important teaching was missed by the general public?? The secret teaching of a violent purge, where Jesus sends out his drones on a mass killing spree, was not disclosed to the public by Jesus. Matt 13:36-42 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field. He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. The same teaching was given to the general public!!!! ( in parable form ) When those weeds are gathered and burned, how do you think they would feel?? They will be wailing and gnashing their teeth!!! The general public wasn't able to understand the message, having been intentionally confused by Jesus, who was using parables. Jesus never disclosed the meaning of this parable to the public. This important teaching was never given to the public except in abstract code, which was designed to keep people from understanding it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
★ Citsonga ★ Posted August 18, 2012 Share Posted August 18, 2012 For emphasis, let's recap several posts where verses were quoted that specifically state that the intent of the parables was to keep people from being able to understand: Mark 4 10 When he was alone, the Twelve and the others around him asked him about the parables. 11 He told them, “The secret of the kingdom of God has been given to you. But to those on the outside everything is said in parables 12 so that, “‘they may be ever seeing but never perceiving, and ever hearing but never understanding; otherwise they might turn and be forgiven!’[a]” New International Version (©1984) He said, "The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of God has been given to you, but to others I speak in parables, so that, "'though seeing, they may not see; though hearing, they may not understand.' Luke 8:10 THAT IS WHAT IS CALLED BEING DECEPTIVE. Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given. . . .Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. . . . lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. above is Matt 13:10-11. Who was these "them" in that verse? And why did he speak in parables to hide the truth? "the knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them." Mark 4:11(NLT) He replied, “You are permitted to understand the secret of the Kingdom of God. But I use parables for everything I say to outsiders, so that the Scriptures might be fulfilled: 'When they see what I do, they will learn nothing. When they hear what I say, they will not understand. Otherwise, they will turn to me and be forgiven.’” <snip> Matt 13:10-15 And the disciples came, and said unto him(Jesus), Why speakest thou unto them in parables? He(Jesus) answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given. In the face of the references above clearly claiming that the parables were given with the specific intent to keep people from understanding, the best Jay can do is ignore it and live in denial. Incidentally, as centauri has pointed out below, the whole premise of those texts is to fabricate a prophetic fulfillment by taking an OT text completely out of context (a common NT practice, by the way): The real problem is that the instructions from Isaiah have nothing to do with Jesus in the first place, but in their zeal to manufacture a fulfillment, the New Testament writer rips the original passage out of context. Isa 6:9-12 And he(God) said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not. Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed. Then said I(Isaiah), Lord, how long? And he answered, Until the cities be wasted without inhabitant, and the houses without man, and the land be utterly desolate, And the Lord have removed men far away, and there be a great forsaking in the midst of the land. Confusing the people was part of God's plan to punish Israel and initiate the exile. It was accomplished by Isaiah hundreds of years before Jesus appeared on the scene. A couple other references that have come up are recapped below: Luke 18:34 "And they understood none of these things: and this saying was hid from them, neither knew they the things which were spoken." While that one is not referring to parables, it does inicate that what Jesus said would shortly come to be (his trial, death and resurrection) were "hid from" the disciples. The secret teaching of a violent purge, where Jesus sends out his drones on a mass killing spree, was not disclosed to the public by Jesus. Matt 13:36-42 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field. He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Jay's response to this teaching being given only to the disciples was to bring up a parable. But, DUH, as has already been shown above, the Bible says that the purpose of the parables was to keep certain people from understanding. Jay's position is clearly dead in the water here. Anyone with half a brain can see that Jay's wheels have no traction. No matter how much he wishes the Bible didn't say what it says, it does indeed say what it says. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymistake Posted August 18, 2012 Share Posted August 18, 2012 And Jay's position sums up the Christian position. It's all emotions. Deny facts. Deny truth. Twist everything to conform to an emotionally satisfying answer. Live in your own delusion. That is what we see in all of these Lion's Den threads. A Christian will come by and spout apologetics. But when that is refuted they keep right at it spouting refuted claims. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Akheia Posted August 18, 2012 Share Posted August 18, 2012 I'd have a lot more respect for Jay if he'd just admit that yes, his Bible contains lies, inaccuracies, and contradictions and he doesn't care, rather than continue to insist that if you make an obscene number of assumptions and leaps of irrationality and a toxic level of fallacies, IT ALL MAKES SENSE RILLY GUIZE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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