Why Do You Remain A Christian?

[Guest Valk0010]

Well at least I understand why JayL remains a Christian.

Its like animal farm. Jayl is the guy saying "four legs good two legs bad."

[centauri]

1. Jesus taught in parables and many in the crowd could not understand the meaning - for whatever the reason.

 

That "whatever" reason is explicitly stated in the texts quoted multiple times in this thread. You keep denying what it says. Just admit that you don't give a rat's ass what the Bible says.

You've nicely summarized the situation.

The reason for them not understanding is clearly stated in the text.

The passage from Isaiah makes it even clearer.

JayL simply doesn't care what it says.

We've seen this type of behavior over and over again with believers.

[mymistake]

The words ex post facto reasoning mean nothing to you right? The second temple was destroyed cause jews got fed up living under roman rule and there were people like Zealots who were fed up with Roman rule.

 

So at best that supposed prophecy fulfillment is a coincidence.

 

Talk about coincidence. I wonder what the average life expectancy was for an Iron Age fortified city in Palestine. Didn't they all get burned to the ground and completely destroyed every 50 to 300 years? It's a cross road for Africa, Europe and Asia. So any empire in the region that wanted to expand would eventually need to lay siege and conquer the previous owners. The Old Testament even records much of this. But it went on long before and long after that Biblical writing.

[centauri]

...The most important point is this: All the teachings of Jesus ( even though mysterious ) were OUT IN PUBLIC. The parables were simple illustrations of spiritual realities.

And they were designed to keep people from understanding.

 

And they were given in language and metaphors familiar to the listeners.

And people would not be able to understand them because the secret meaning was withheld from them.

 

Now he may explained more to his disciples but it was the same spiritual reality he was teaching. Nothing different. It is the same information.

The information in one case is given in abstract code designed to confuse, while in the other case it's explained with clarity.

The outsiders would have needed a magical decoder ring to understand the information.

 

So when Jesus said to the high priest that all his teachings were out in public, he was right.

If all his teachings were public, there would have been no need to explain what the real information was in private.

All his teachings were not public because he taught his disciples things he never disclosed publicly.

You somehow imagine that messages spoken in gibberish, with the intent to confuse, equate to public explanations of the gibberish.

[centauri]

The scripture of Isaiah, which Jesus claims to be fulfilling, instructs the messenger to make people dull.

 

Isa 6:9-10

And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not.

Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.

 

 

 

Yes, that was the Isaiah prophecy. Now let's see how the prophecy was fulfilled by Jesus. This is what the NT says:

 

Matthew 13: 10-16

¹⁰ Then the disciples came to Him and said, Why do You speak to them in parables?

¹¹ And He replied to them, To you it has been given to know the secrets and mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given.

¹² For whoever has [spiritual knowledge], to him will more be given and he will ^[c]be furnished richly so that he will have abundance; but from him who has not, even what he has will be taken away.

¹³ This is the reason that I speak to them in parables: because ^[d]having the power of seeing, they do not see; and ^[e]having the power of hearing, they do not hear, nor do they grasp and understand.

¹⁴ In them indeed is ^[f]the process of fulfillment of the prophecy of Isaiah, which says: You shall indeed hear and hear but never grasp and understand; and you shall indeed look and look but never see and perceive.

¹⁵ For this nation’s heart has grown gross (fat and dull), and their ears heavy and difficult of hearing, and their eyes they have tightly closed, lest they see and perceive with their eyes, and hear and comprehend the sense with their ears, and grasp and understand with their heart, and turn and I should heal them.

¹⁶ But blessed (happy, fortunate, and ^[g]to be envied) are your eyes because they do see, and your ears because they do hear.

 

 

 

Read this ( amplified version ) verse 15 carefully !!

 

¹⁵ For this nation’s heart has grown gross (fat and dull), and their ears heavy and difficult of hearing, and their eyes they have tightly closed, lest they see and perceive with their eyes, and hear and comprehend the sense with their ears, and grasp and understand with their heart, and turn and I should heal them.

 

 

Jewish nation has become spiritually dull since that Isaiah prophecy has been made - some 600 years ago. The prophecy has indeed been fulfilled.

The prophecy has nothing to do with Jesus.

The instructions were directed to Isaiah, and those instructions included making people non-understanding.

The messenger was tasked with disguising knowledge so that it can't be understood.

 

Isa 6:9-11

And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not.

Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.

Then said I, Lord, how long? And he answered, Until the cities be wasted without inhabitant, and the houses without man, and the land be utterly desolate,

 

Notice that Isaiah asks "how long should I do this?", and God answers; until the land has been emptied, which refers to the exile and the Jews carried away to captivity.

This happened long before Jesus appeared.

 

Also note also that the author of Matthew misquotes Isaiah, and places the misquote into the mouth of Jesus.

He has changed the words.

 

The line, "For this people's heart has become fat," should read, "Make this people's heart fat".

 

The instruction to cause confusion and misunderstanding in people is intentional.

If Jesus is supposed to be the messenger, then his mission to obfuscate is intentional.

Those were the instructions of God.

 

They are indeed very dull at the time of Jesus ministry!! And as a reason, even when Jesus teach them in simple, understandable parables, they do not hear and they do not see and as a result, they cannot find their salvation in the Messiah.

They are not understandable parables because Jesus specifically says he uses them to keep people from understanding.

Outsiders are not permiitted to understand.

 

Mark 4:11-12(NLT)

He replied, “You(the inner circle) are permitted to understand the secret of the Kingdom of God. But I use parables for everything I say to outsiders,

so that the Scriptures might be fulfilled: ‘When they see what I do, they will learn nothing.

When they hear what I say, they will not understand.

Otherwise, they will turn to me and be forgiven.’”

 

The mission of the messenger in Isaiah 6 was to make people confused.

If they were to understand, they might be forgiven.

If Jesus really fulfilled Isaiah 6, then you're stuck with these problems.

[JayL]

The scripture of Isaiah, which Jesus claims to be fulfilling, instructs the messenger to make people dull.

 

Isa 6:9-10

And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not.

Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.

 

 

 

Yes, that was the Isaiah prophecy. Now let's see how the prophecy was fulfilled by Jesus. This is what the NT says:

 

Matthew 13: 10-16

¹⁰ Then the disciples came to Him and said, Why do You speak to them in parables?

¹¹ And He replied to them, To you it has been given to know the secrets and mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given.

¹² For whoever has [spiritual knowledge], to him will more be given and he will ^[c]be furnished richly so that he will have abundance; but from him who has not, even what he has will be taken away.

¹³ This is the reason that I speak to them in parables: because ^[d]having the power of seeing, they do not see; and ^[e]having the power of hearing, they do not hear, nor do they grasp and understand.

¹⁴ In them indeed is ^[f]the process of fulfillment of the prophecy of Isaiah, which says: You shall indeed hear and hear but never grasp and understand; and you shall indeed look and look but never see and perceive.

¹⁵ For this nation’s heart has grown gross (fat and dull), and their ears heavy and difficult of hearing, and their eyes they have tightly closed, lest they see and perceive with their eyes, and hear and comprehend the sense with their ears, and grasp and understand with their heart, and turn and I should heal them.

¹⁶ But blessed (happy, fortunate, and ^[g]to be envied) are your eyes because they do see, and your ears because they do hear.

 

 

 

Read this ( amplified version ) verse 15 carefully !!

 

¹⁵ For this nation’s heart has grown gross (fat and dull), and their ears heavy and difficult of hearing, and their eyes they have tightly closed, lest they see and perceive with their eyes, and hear and comprehend the sense with their ears, and grasp and understand with their heart, and turn and I should heal them.

 

 

Jewish nation has become spiritually dull since that Isaiah prophecy has been made - some 600 years ago. The prophecy has indeed been fulfilled.

The prophecy has nothing to do with Jesus.

The instructions were directed to Isaiah, and those instructions included making people non-understanding.

The messenger was tasked with disguising knowledge so that it can't be understood.

 

Isa 6:9-11

And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not.

Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.

Then said I, Lord, how long? And he answered, Until the cities be wasted without inhabitant, and the houses without man, and the land be utterly desolate,

 

Notice that Isaiah asks "how long should I do this?", and God answers; until the land has been emptied, which refers to the exile and the Jews carried away to captivity.

This happened long before Jesus appeared.

 

Also note also that the author of Matthew misquotes Isaiah, and places the misquote into the mouth of Jesus.

He has changed the words.

 

The line, "For this people's heart has become fat," should read, "Make this people's heart fat".

 

The instruction to cause confusion and misunderstanding in people is intentional.

If Jesus is supposed to be the messenger, then his mission to obfuscate is intentional.

Those were the instructions of God.

 

They are indeed very dull at the time of Jesus ministry!! And as a reason, even when Jesus teach them in simple, understandable parables, they do not hear and they do not see and as a result, they cannot find their salvation in the Messiah.

They are not understandable parables because Jesus specifically says he uses them to keep people from understanding.

Outsiders are not permiitted to understand.

 

Mark 4:11-12(NLT)

He replied, “You(the inner circle) are permitted to understand the secret of the Kingdom of God. But I use parables for everything I say to outsiders,

so that the Scriptures might be fulfilled: ‘When they see what I do, they will learn nothing.

When they hear what I say, they will not understand.

Otherwise, they will turn to me and be forgiven.’”

 

The mission of the messenger in Isaiah 6 was to make people confused.

If they were to understand, they might be forgiven.

If Jesus really fulfilled Isaiah 6, then you're stuck with these problems.

 

 

 

Yes, I understand the Mark passage could give you that impression. That is why I am quoting George Costanza. Yes, seemingly. Seemingly. But if we look at the longer passage in Matthew's Gospel we get a different take at what is happening. And given that Matthew was written for Jews and Mark's Gospel for the Roman, I would give a greater credence to Matthew's account.

 

And from Matthew's account, the reason why people do not understand teaching of Jesus is NOT because Jesus spoke in parables. ( Parables are NOT riddles. They are not meant to puzzle people. Parables are straight forward illustrations. ) The reason why people could not understand was because they have become spiritually dull.

 

Now his disciples were not in as a bad shape as the general public. For them, Jesus explained his teaching in greater detail - but even they were in a state of bafflement. But these are just matter of degrees. The point I am making is that the material he presented to the general public and to his disciples were the same teaching material. Jesus did NOT teach one thing to the public and another thing to his disciples.

[mcdaddy]

I just check "the good guys" responses on here.

 

I just scroll by the troll.

[JayL]

 

If all his teachings were public, there would have been no need to explain what the real information was in private.

All his teachings were not public because he taught his disciples things he never disclosed publicly.

You somehow imagine that messages spoken in gibberish, with the intent to confuse, equate to public explanations of the gibberish.

 

 

All his teachings were in public but they were not easily understandable. What he taught his disciples were the same information but has been fleshed out in greater detail. Yes, they understood his teaching better than general public but it was not anything different from what was out there already.

[JayL]

...The most important point is this: All the teachings of Jesus ( even though mysterious ) were OUT IN PUBLIC. The parables were simple illustrations of spiritual realities.

And they were designed to keep people from understanding.

 

I mean, does this even make sense to you?? If you really want to keep people from understanding, just stay silent !!! Why even speak in parables - which were illustrations of spiritual realities. If people think hard enough about parables, they may catch on. So if you really want to keep people from understanding anything, KEEP SILENT!!!

[JayL]

Well at least I understand why JayL remains a Christian.

Its like animal farm. Jayl is the guy saying "four legs good two legs bad."

 

 

 

Actually that was pretty funny.

[Guest Valk0010]

...The most important point is this: All the teachings of Jesus ( even though mysterious ) were OUT IN PUBLIC. The parables were simple illustrations of spiritual realities.

And they were designed to keep people from understanding.

 

I mean, does this even make sense to you?? If you really want to keep people from understanding, just stay silent !!! Why even speak in parables - which were illustrations of spiritual realities. If people think hard enough about parables, they may catch on. So if you really want to keep people from understanding anything, KEEP SILENT!!!

 

Well the verses are clear, but your trying to have your cake and eat it too.

 

The parables were done to confuse. And even if not, the apostles themselves not understand what jesus says at times proves that the mass populace wouldn't have gotten it.

 

Either way you lose.

[Ouroboros]

Actually that was pretty funny.

You smell like a clown. Funny.

[Guest Valk0010]

And that bit about staying silent, that is the most rational thing to do sure(I will agree with that for the sake of argument). But to pad his credibility he had to fulfill a prophecy that amounted to the same thing. He might as well have stayed silent. Fulfilling the prophecy and staying silent would and did have the same logical consequence of people not getting what they needed to know. The goal would have been accomplished either way.

 

So again you lose.

 

If I have to make it plainer, you will have earned your moniker for being a troll. Or just dense.

[centauri]

The scripture of Isaiah, which Jesus claims to be fulfilling, instructs the messenger to make people dull.

 

Isa 6:9-10

And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not.

Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.

 

 

 

Yes, that was the Isaiah prophecy. Now let's see how the prophecy was fulfilled by Jesus. This is what the NT says:

 

Matthew 13: 10-16

¹⁰ Then the disciples came to Him and said, Why do You speak to them in parables?

¹¹ And He replied to them, To you it has been given to know the secrets and mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given.

¹² For whoever has [spiritual knowledge], to him will more be given and he will ^[c]be furnished richly so that he will have abundance; but from him who has not, even what he has will be taken away.

¹³ This is the reason that I speak to them in parables: because ^[d]having the power of seeing, they do not see; and ^[e]having the power of hearing, they do not hear, nor do they grasp and understand.

¹⁴ In them indeed is ^[f]the process of fulfillment of the prophecy of Isaiah, which says: You shall indeed hear and hear but never grasp and understand; and you shall indeed look and look but never see and perceive.

¹⁵ For this nation’s heart has grown gross (fat and dull), and their ears heavy and difficult of hearing, and their eyes they have tightly closed, lest they see and perceive with their eyes, and hear and comprehend the sense with their ears, and grasp and understand with their heart, and turn and I should heal them.

¹⁶ But blessed (happy, fortunate, and ^[g]to be envied) are your eyes because they do see, and your ears because they do hear.

 

 

 

Read this ( amplified version ) verse 15 carefully !!

 

¹⁵ For this nation’s heart has grown gross (fat and dull), and their ears heavy and difficult of hearing, and their eyes they have tightly closed, lest they see and perceive with their eyes, and hear and comprehend the sense with their ears, and grasp and understand with their heart, and turn and I should heal them.

 

 

Jewish nation has become spiritually dull since that Isaiah prophecy has been made - some 600 years ago. The prophecy has indeed been fulfilled.

The prophecy has nothing to do with Jesus.

The instructions were directed to Isaiah, and those instructions included making people non-understanding.

The messenger was tasked with disguising knowledge so that it can't be understood.

 

Isa 6:9-11

And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not.

Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.

Then said I, Lord, how long? And he answered, Until the cities be wasted without inhabitant, and the houses without man, and the land be utterly desolate,

 

Notice that Isaiah asks "how long should I do this?", and God answers; until the land has been emptied, which refers to the exile and the Jews carried away to captivity.

This happened long before Jesus appeared.

 

Also note also that the author of Matthew misquotes Isaiah, and places the misquote into the mouth of Jesus.

He has changed the words.

 

The line, "For this people's heart has become fat," should read, "Make this people's heart fat".

 

The instruction to cause confusion and misunderstanding in people is intentional.

If Jesus is supposed to be the messenger, then his mission to obfuscate is intentional.

Those were the instructions of God.

 

They are indeed very dull at the time of Jesus ministry!! And as a reason, even when Jesus teach them in simple, understandable parables, they do not hear and they do not see and as a result, they cannot find their salvation in the Messiah.

They are not understandable parables because Jesus specifically says he uses them to keep people from understanding.

Outsiders are not permiitted to understand.

 

Mark 4:11-12(NLT)

He replied, “You(the inner circle) are permitted to understand the secret of the Kingdom of God. But I use parables for everything I say to outsiders,

so that the Scriptures might be fulfilled: ‘When they see what I do, they will learn nothing.

When they hear what I say, they will not understand.

Otherwise, they will turn to me and be forgiven.’”

 

The mission of the messenger in Isaiah 6 was to make people confused.

If they were to understand, they might be forgiven.

If Jesus really fulfilled Isaiah 6, then you're stuck with these problems.

 

Yes, I understand the Mark passage could give you that impression. That is why I am quoting George Costanza. Yes, seemingly. Seemingly. But if we look at the longer passage in Matthew's Gospel we get a different take at what is happening. And given that Matthew was written for Jews and Mark's Gospel for the Roman, I would give a greater credence to Matthew's account.

It was the author of Matthew that misquotes Isaiah and has Jesus doing it.

 

And from Matthew's account, the reason why people do not understand teaching of Jesus is NOT because Jesus spoke in parables. ( Parables are NOT riddles. They are not meant to puzzle people. Parables are straight forward illustrations. ) The reason why people could not understand was because they have become spiritually dull.

The messenger in Isaiah is instructed by God to make people confused.

The reason for the parables is to keep people from understanding:

 

Luke 8:9-10(ESV)

The Purpose of the Parables

 

And when his disciples asked him what this parable meant, he said, “To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of God, but for others they are in parables, so that ‘seeing they may not see, and hearing they may not understand.’

 

Jesus comes right out and states that his teaching is in parables so that people will not understand.

He wants to ensure that they do not understand.

If they had understood, they might convert and be healed, and Jesus didn't want that.

 

Now his disciples were not in as a bad shape as the general public. For them, Jesus explained his teaching in greater detail - but even they were in a state of bafflement. But these are just matter of degrees. The point I am making is that the material he presented to the general public and to his disciples were the same teaching material. Jesus did NOT teach one thing to the public and another thing to his disciples.

Jesus intentionally taught in a way that would obscure knowledge of what he really meant.

He didn't speak openly or frankly with the public.

His goal was to hide the meaning from them.

That's the problem.

He taught things in private that he did not teach to the public.

Then he denied teaching privately.

[mymistake]

Yes, I understand the Mark passage could give you that impression. That is why I am quoting George Costanza. Yes, seemingly. Seemingly. But if we look at the longer passage in Matthew's Gospel we get a different take at what is happening. And given that Matthew was written for Jews and Mark's Gospel for the Roman, I would give a greater credence to Matthew's account.

 

Oh no you don't. First you must prove that Matthew was written for the Jews and intended to complement Mark. Prove that Mark was written for the Roman.

 

However I do find it cute that you decide which part of "God's Word" you will give credence and how much. Way to expose the Christian fraud for what it is.

 

And from Matthew's account, the reason why people do not understand teaching of Jesus is NOT because Jesus spoke in parables. ( Parables are NOT riddles. They are not meant to puzzle people. Parables are straight forward illustrations. ) The reason why people could not understand was because they have become spiritually dull.

 

Now his disciples were not in as a bad shape as the general public. For them, Jesus explained his teaching in greater detail - but even they were in a state of bafflement. But these are just matter of degrees. The point I am making is that the material he presented to the general public and to his disciples were the same teaching material. Jesus did NOT teach one thing to the public and another thing to his disciples.

 

And this was already refuted days ago. Supposedly when Jesus was alive the secret teachings could only be understood by a few. Then when Jesus is no more suddenly everybody can understand the exact same teaching.

 

Here is what happened. Bruce Lee became famous and then suddenly died . . . which made his name even more famous. Then everybody who had had a class or two out of Bruce Lee's garage claimed to be the real true disciple with the real true teachings. And they wrote and sold books. And they traveled giving siminars, opening schools and making a living off of the name of a famous dead guy. Same idea only with Jesus.

 

Oh and Matthew was not a complement to Mark. Matthew (and also Luke) were written as corrections of Mark.

[Guest Valk0010]

If all his teachings were public, there would have been no need to explain what the real information was in private.

All his teachings were not public because he taught his disciples things he never disclosed publicly.

You somehow imagine that messages spoken in gibberish, with the intent to confuse, equate to public explanations of the gibberish.

 

 

All his teachings were in public but they were not easily understandable. What he taught his disciples were the same information but has been fleshed out in greater detail. Yes, they understood his teaching better than general public but it was not anything different from what was out there already.

Bullshit, read your bible.

[Guest Valk0010]

Another reason to not debate christians who don't even know bible scholarship 101.

 

Mark didn't write Mark

 

Matthew didn't write matthew

 

Luke didn't write luke

 

John didn't write john.

[centauri]

If all his teachings were public, there would have been no need to explain what the real information was in private.

All his teachings were not public because he taught his disciples things he never disclosed publicly.

You somehow imagine that messages spoken in gibberish, with the intent to confuse, equate to public explanations of the gibberish.

 

All his teachings were in public but they were not easily understandable. What he taught his disciples were the same information but has been fleshed out in greater detail. Yes, they understood his teaching better than general public but it was not anything different from what was out there already.

They were not easy to understand because they were designed for the purpose of keeping people from understanding.

What the disciples had taught to them in private was different than what the public got.

The public didn't get any explanations or details.

The public got parables designed to keep them from understanding.

The disciples received the secrets that were denied to others.

The disciples received edification and explanation that was intentionally withheld from the public.

[centauri]

...The most important point is this: All the teachings of Jesus ( even though mysterious ) were OUT IN PUBLIC. The parables were simple illustrations of spiritual realities.

And they were designed to keep people from understanding.

 

I mean, does this even make sense to you?? If you really want to keep people from understanding, just stay silent !!! Why even speak in parables - which were illustrations of spiritual realities. If people think hard enough about parables, they may catch on. So if you really want to keep people from understanding anything, KEEP SILENT!!!

Jesus was supposedly fulfilling scripture from Isaiah, and he had orders to confuse people.

"Make these people dull and without understanding."

 

Jesus specifically states the purpose of the parables.

 

Luke 8:9-10(NLT)

His disciples asked him what this parable meant.

He replied, “You are permitted to understand the secrets of the Kingdom of God.

But I use parables to teach the others so that the Scriptures might be fulfilled:

 

‘When they look, they won’t really see.

When they hear, they won’t understand.’

 

You aren't supposed to question if it makes sense or not.

God's ways don't have to make sense.

At least, that's what the pastors and missionaries always told me.

[Xerces]

The reason why people could not understand was because they have become spiritually dull.

 

Dull huh? Let's spice things up!

[Astreja]

You gotta dig deeper, my friend. The truth is out there !!!

 

Jay, we *did* dig deeper. That's why we're ex-Christians and you're still holding onto your beliefs.

[Kaiser01]

[JayL]

Luke 8:9-10(ESV)

The Purpose of the Parables

 

And when his disciples asked him what this parable meant, he said, “To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of God, but for others they are in parables, so that ‘seeing they may not see, and hearing they may not understand.’

 

Jesus comes right out and states that his teaching is in parables so that people will not understand.

He wants to ensure that they do not understand.

If they had understood, they might convert and be healed, and Jesus didn't want that.

 

Man, talk about beating up a dead horse, how many time do I need to elucidate this point. Let's read the Luke passage:

 

⁹ And when His disciples asked Him the meaning of this parable,

¹⁰ He said to them, To you it has been given to [come progressively to] know (to recognize and understand more strongly and clearly) the mysteries and secrets of the kingdom of God, but for others they are in parables, so that, [though] looking, they may not see; and hearing, they may not comprehend.

 

Now, if the goal is that people would not comprehend, why speak at all?? Why?? Do you ever ask questions like that??

 

What is going on is this: Jesus taught in parable. Due to spiritual dullness of people, they are having a tough time comprehending what he is talking about. Even his disciples are having a tough time. He is willing to explain to his disciples but he did not extend same opportunity to general public. My main point is this: The information was out there. It may not be in readily understandable form but the information was public. If some guys outside of Jesus group decided to work hard at figuring out the meanings of parable, they may have succeeded.

 

Jesus is not teaching one thing to public and then another thing to his disciples. It is the same parables. Same information. It is just that the disciples are further along in understanding them than the general public.

 

 

DO YOU GET THIS??? How many times do I have to explain this ????

 

 

 

 

Jesus intentionally taught in a way that would obscure knowledge of what he really meant.

He didn't speak openly or frankly with the public.

His goal was to hide the meaning from them.

That's the problem.

He taught things in private that he did not teach to the public.

Then he denied teaching privately.

 

 

You guys seem to repeat the same thing over and over and over again. I mean, where is your brain??? Show some intellectual curiosity, man !!

[JayL]

You gotta dig deeper, my friend. The truth is out there !!!

 

Jay, we *did* dig deeper. That's why we're ex-Christians and you're still holding onto your beliefs.

 

 

By digging deeper, I guess you read some Jesus seminar people and perhaps some academic weenies. They don't help.

[Astreja]

By digging deeper, I guess you read some Jesus seminar people and perhaps some academic weenies. They don't help.

 

Jay, you disgust Me. It is obvious that you haven't taken the time to read the various Ex-timonies that outline the backgrounds of the various Ex-C members.

 

This has nothing to do with reading this author or that author. We've collectively put in thousands of man-years trying to make sense of Christianity, and the bottom line is that it doesn't make any sense at all. A miracle-maker who only shows up in some writings with an obvious mythological slant, with no contemporaneous evidence that he even existed? A god so pathetically fucking weak that it cannot tolerate the presence of the beings it, itself created unless those beings are camouflaged with sacrificial blood? Eternal life?

 

No, Jay -- You're the one who isn't comprehending this. Christianity is a mess, excuses piled on excuses in a vain attempt to try to explain the inexcusable. Christianity doesn't have any power at all, other than the power of the human imagination, and depending on the self-image and the motives of the human in question that power can be used for acts of kindness and selflessness or for acts of barbarous depravity.

 

And at the end of the day, Jay, your ultimate fate and ours are identical in all material respects. I am 99.999...% sure that you will never make it to your god's make-believe eternal playground, but will lose consciousness, sentience and self-awareness permanently at the time of your death. You won't even know that you have lost your faith, because "you" will be gone forever and ever, amen.