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Why Do You Remain A Christian?


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I mean, where is your brain???

 

I hope the Mods return Jay to the "Where Is My Brain?" group where he clearly belongs.

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I hope the Mods return Jay to the "Where Is My Brain?" group where he clearly belongs.

 

Seconded. Totally in keeping with his argumentum ex rectum approach.

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And at the end of the day, Jay, your ultimate fate and ours are identical in all material respects. I am 99.999...% sure that you will never make it to your god's make-believe eternal playground, but will lose consciousness, sentience and self-awareness permanently at the time of your death. You won't even know that you have lost your faith, because "you" will be gone forever and ever, amen.

 

 

In a way, I wish you were right. But once again, there is that small, non zero chance that our souls would survive past physical deaths......

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And at the end of the day, Jay, your ultimate fate and ours are identical in all material respects. I am 99.999...% sure that you will never make it to your god's make-believe eternal playground, but will lose consciousness, sentience and self-awareness permanently at the time of your death. You won't even know that you have lost your faith, because "you" will be gone forever and ever, amen.

 

 

In a way, I wish you were right. But once again, there is that small, non zero chance that our souls would survive past physical deaths......

 

What souls? You have no evidence that there is anything outside of the human body and the electrical, chemical and biological processes of that body. Prove that an eternal soul exists before you use this as a fact in an argument.

 

Oh, and most of the ex-Christians understand exactly what you are saying. You have a private interpretation of the Bible. You judged which parts of the Bible you will believe and which ones you will ignore. And in your private, personal religion you believe that Jesus couldn't teach the advanced theology to the masses because it was too advanced for them. You arrive at that conclusion by ignoring many Bible verses, ignoring how Christian theology has been mass marketed to the uneducated masses, and ignoring anything else that shoots your pet theory full of holes.

 

As for how many times you need to explain this . . . that is up to you. How many times do you need to go through it before you are ready to accept that you have failed? The need comes from you. It is your need. It is your idea and you are the one who refuses to see that idea's flaws. So you tell us how many times do you need to repeat your failure before you accept reality?

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In a way, I wish you were right. But once again, there is that small, non zero chance that our souls would survive past physical deaths......

 

In the real world, "non-zero" is not equivalent to "something on which one should waste years of one's life on the off chance that it might be true, even though it almost certainly is false."

 

I am quite content in discounting and ignoring that infinitesimally small "maybe," Jay. I think it's ludicrous to go chasing after one chance in infinity, abandoning our real lives in favour of a future life that we almost certainly will never see.

 

Sometimes one just has to say "Yeah, eternal life might be nice; and yeah, it's something I want; but the evidence for it is so mindbogglingly weak that I really don't think it'll happen." It's a painful thing to say, but eminently necessary if one wants to live life with both eyes open and both feet on solid ground.

 

As for "souls," I've noticed that we don't seem to be self-aware 100% of the time. For instance, we may be aware of ourselves in dreams but not in non-dreaming sleep. If souls were real, why would they magically switch off in the presence of certain brainwave patterns?

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You guys seem to repeat the same thing over and over and over again. I mean, where is your brain??? Show some intellectual curiosity, man !!

You remind me of the likes of Sean Hannity.

 

Or something like a pigeon who when playing chess just knocks over the pieces and claims he has one.

 

Its not that we aren't curious. Your just being dumb and obtuse.

 

I vote for you to get the head up the ass avatar.

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And at the end of the day, Jay, your ultimate fate and ours are identical in all material respects. I am 99.999...% sure that you will never make it to your god's make-believe eternal playground, but will lose consciousness, sentience and self-awareness permanently at the time of your death. You won't even know that you have lost your faith, because "you" will be gone forever and ever, amen.

 

 

In a way, I wish you were right. But once again, there is that small, non zero chance that our souls would survive past physical deaths......

wuss
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As for "souls," I've noticed that we don't seem to be self-aware 100% of the time. For instance, we may be aware of ourselves in dreams but not in non-dreaming sleep. If souls were real, why would they magically switch off in the presence of certain brainwave patterns?

 

That is a fascinating question. I don't have a good answer for it.

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As for "souls," I've noticed that we don't seem to be self-aware 100% of the time. For instance, we may be aware of ourselves in dreams but not in non-dreaming sleep. If souls were real, why would they magically switch off in the presence of certain brainwave patterns?
That is a fascinating question. I don't have a good answer for it.

 

Fair enough. Ponder it at your leisure.

 

Good night, all; got an out-of-town gig tomorrow and have to get some ZZZ's.

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In a way, I wish you were right. But once again, there is that small, non zero chance that our souls would survive past physical deaths......

There is that small, non zero change that we were genetically created by aliens from the star system Zhughux. And you can't prove it's not true. Therefore it must be true, and I want you to convert to this belief.

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Does anything happen that is outside God's control? No?

 

 

 

 

Is this a joke question?? Have you been reading any of my posts? Of course, PLENTY of things happen outside God's control - like ALL of evil that happen on the earth!

 

Is your God all-powerful or not? Does he intervene in the affairs of man or not?

 

I believe Obvious Troll has already commited himself on that question. Didn't he say human choices are out of God's control. That would mean God is not all powerful. Of course OT can change his position like the changing of the wind.

 

 

You are getting closer to the truth, grasshopper !

 

Human choices may be out of this hypothetical God's control - this is the "free will" postulate. What I was getting at is that this hypothetical God has created the structure/framework in which souls are judged. He decides who has been naughty or nice and where they go after death. I was linking God with responsibility to his creation.

 

Here is the arrangement as depicted in the Bible:

 

God is pointing a loaded gun to my head saying "Give me a hundred dollars or I'll pull the trigger. Don't make me do it. It's your choice." If I don't give God the hundred dollars and he puts a bullet between my eyes, you cannot say that I have committed suicide.

 

But it's worse than that. It's not even that clear. It's like finding that scenario in an old gangster movie and that's supposed to be enough of a warning for me to believe that it applies to me. In other words, it's a basic failure in communication.

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And at the end of the day, Jay, your ultimate fate and ours are identical in all material respects. I am 99.999...% sure that you will never make it to your god's make-believe eternal playground, but will lose consciousness, sentience and self-awareness permanently at the time of your death. You won't even know that you have lost your faith, because "you" will be gone forever and ever, amen.

 

 

In a way, I wish you were right. But once again, there is that small, non zero chance that our souls would survive past physical deaths......

 

There is no good evidence for souls. I'm interested in probabilities not prick-teasing infinitessimally small possibilities.

 

 

Actually I've just changed my mind. We are all connected by our soles. Via the floor.

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This is excerpted from Anat's first post. Jay, when I read what she wrote in the part she italicizes below, esp. her 2), I was reminded of how hard you have to work to try to 'spin" the Bible. If defending it takes that many assumptions, etc,???

 

 

Hi, all. This is my first time posting my very own topic, and I apologize if this sort of story is old hat. Thanks for reading my cathartic word jumble! smile.png

 

 

Over time, I found myself both more and more troubled by the concept of God and at the same time just not caring any more. It was truly exhausting to try to stick up for God/Jesus when the things they did seemed pretty indefensible. Eventually I stopped going to church at all and told myself that I just was taking a break, and that I would consider myself "not religious" for a bit. Then two thoughts came to my mind. 1) How can I believe in a God who is less kind and just than humans are? and 2) If I'm having to work this hard to defend the concept of God and Christianity and to suspend this belief in my mind, maybe this belief isn't worth having. Despite thinking these things I still did not consider myself an atheist or an agnostic, just really not religious.

 

A few weeks ago I visited my parents in the south. I went with them to church and it was one of the most depressing things I experienced in a long time. All these truly kind people believing truly stupid and cruel things. When I got back from the trip I realized that I was more than "not religious," I was an agnostic/atheist (still researching to find where I actually fit). And now I am more pissed than ever. HOW ON EARTH can these "pastors" and "priests" who actually studied the text stand there and lie to their congregations every week? I give the congregations more of a pass, but if you have studied the actual language of the Bible and still believe it to be infallible, you are an idiot and a liar. I can't deal with it. And now I sit and simmer as my Facebook is constantly populated with idiotic Christian sayings and verses and ideals.

 

 

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In a way, I wish you were right. But once again, there is that small, non zero chance that our souls would survive past physical deaths......

 

That's horseshit, Jay. You haven't ever presented evidence of a single component of a human that lasts beyond death. And you're using a weak version of Pascal's Wager to try to bully people into accepting your horseshit as the truth. "Well..." you snivel in that mealy-mouthed way you have, "MAYBE there's something that survives past death.." and then you leap straight from that to "SO IT MUST MEAN CHRISTIANITY IS REAL."

 

Sorry.

 

Not buying the defective product you're selling.

 

First: you must prove there is something about humans that survives past death, using empirical evidence and peer-reviewed studies.

 

Second: you must prove that the Bible's depiction of its deity is true and historical.

 

Third: you must prove that whatever survives past death is solely the product of the Bible's mythology.

 

Good luck with that, champ. Better apologists than you have been trying to do that for centuries. The simple truth is this: if you're going to go with the "well, MAYBE...." guess, then you've got a lot of explaining to do in order to justify why you can leap from there to Yahweh/Jesus but not to Zeus or Ganesh. Frankly, it sounds like you're just working overtime like a hamster in a wheel trying to come up with increasingly-crazy rationalizations for your weird religion's absolutely irrational beliefs and contradictory myths.

 

And, uh, not to put too fine a point on it, but if there were a Yahweh, if there were such a galactically evil being, if there were such a hideously cruel creature, I'm not so sure hedging your bets this way is really how you want to play it. He lies all through his mythology and has shown he has no trouble whatsoever slaughtering millions, even trillions of people, enslaving them, sexually assaulting the children of his people's enemies, murdering their infants, withholding vital medical information from his ant farm that could have saved countless lives, and even in the NT encouraging bigotry and sexism. What on earth makes you think anything in the Bible about his afterlife is actually accurate? Simply put, what if he's lying about that, too? Your little wager gets a lot more complicated when you take into account that there might not be any kind of heaven you'd ever want to inhabit. You have only Paul's word on God even wanting you, a Gentile, around. As I would say to a Muslim, 72 virgins is all fine if you're the guy who owns the harem, but what kind of heaven is that for the virgins?

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JayL you are taking possibility and substituting if for reality. You must have more than possibility, you must also have evidence to back it up or it holds no value.

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Considering he's not even vaguely aware of what reality is, much less how to create and test an objective claim, this is all probably going right over his head. Christianity has a vested interest in creating mindsets like the one Jay portrays.

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If Jay had been born around the Mediterranean 3000 years ago, he'd be sticking up for Almighty Zeus just as strongly.

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The scripture of Isaiah, which Jesus claims to be fulfilling, instructs the messenger to make people dull.

 

Isa 6:9-10

And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not.

Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.

 

 

 

Yes, that was the Isaiah prophecy. Now let's see how the prophecy was fulfilled by Jesus. This is what the NT says:

 

Matthew 13: 10-16

10 Then the disciples came to Him and said, Why do You speak to them in parables?

11 And He replied to them, To you it has been given to know the secrets and mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given.

12 For whoever has [spiritual knowledge], to him will more be given and he will [c]be furnished richly so that he will have abundance; but from him who has not, even what he has will be taken away.

13 This is the reason that I speak to them in parables: because [d]having the power of seeing, they do not see; and [e]having the power of hearing, they do not hear, nor do they grasp and understand.

14 In them indeed is [f]the process of fulfillment of the prophecy of Isaiah, which says: You shall indeed hear and hear but never grasp and understand; and you shall indeed look and look but never see and perceive.

15 For this nation’s heart has grown gross (fat and dull), and their ears heavy and difficult of hearing, and their eyes they have tightly closed, lest they see and perceive with their eyes, and hear and comprehend the sense with their ears, and grasp and understand with their heart, and turn and I should heal them.

16 But blessed (happy, fortunate, and [g]to be envied) are your eyes because they do see, and your ears because they do hear.

 

 

 

Read this ( amplified version ) verse 15 carefully !!

 

15 For this nation’s heart has grown gross (fat and dull), and their ears heavy and difficult of hearing, and their eyes they have tightly closed, lest they see and perceive with their eyes, and hear and comprehend the sense with their ears, and grasp and understand with their heart, and turn and I should heal them.

 

 

Jewish nation has become spiritually dull since that Isaiah prophecy has been made - some 600 years ago. The prophecy has indeed been fulfilled. They are indeed very dull at the time of Jesus ministry!! And as a reason, even when Jesus teach them in simple, understandable parables, they do not hear and they do not see and as a result, they cannot find their salvation in the Messiah. And as shown in verse 12, what little knowledge they have gained by listening to Jesus parables would be taken away while the disciples would gain more knowledge about the spiritual reality behind the parables.

 

Sorry, Jay, but you've completely missed the point. Look at the Isaiah passage in context:

 

ISAIAH 6

8
Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, Here am I; send me.

9
And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not.

10
Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.

11
Then said I, Lord, how long? And he answered, Until the cities be wasted without inhabitant, and the houses without man, and the land be utterly desolate,

12
And the Lord have removed men far away, and there be a great forsaking in the midst of the land.

13
But yet in it shall be a tenth, and it shall return, and shall be eaten: as a teil tree, and as an oak, whose substance is in them, when they cast their leaves: so the holy seed shall be the substance thereof.

 

This clearly has God telling Isaiah to make the proclamation to the Hebrews until the exile, which was hundreds of years before the time of Jesus. Nowhere does Isaiah say that it's a prediction of Jesus' time. The quote has been ripped out of context and reworded by the Gospel writers to fabricate a prophetic fulfillment. It was NOT a prediction and it had NOTHING to do with Jesus' time.

 

 

Interestingly enough, the history repeated. After the ministry of Jesus ( and once again the dull spiritual condition of Jews ) even a bigger exile happened - as the Second Temple got destroyed, the city of Jerusalem in total ruin, and the land of Judea uninhabited after the Jewish War by Romans. Exactly as predicted by the prophesy.

 

No, that is NOT "exactly as predicted by the prophecy." Read the Isaiah passage again. It clearly states that the quote in question was something that ISAIAH HIMSELF was supposed to PROCLAIM UNTIL the exile. Isaiah was DEAD HUNDREDS OF YEARS BEFORE the 70AD destruction of the temple. You are ignoring the clear truth right in front of your eyes.

 

No that is not what I meant. In trying to understand both sides of the argument, I felt like George Costanza facing an angry crowd. I had to stay cool headed, make the best case for my side of the argument and try my best to win over the opposition.

 

But as George Costanza admitted, 'It is not easy'. I bet many people here are still in an angry, accusatory mood like Hans is in.

 

That ship has not sailed yet, Jay.

 

Exactly. He hasn't shown the slightest interest in trying to understand. All he wants to do is preach his preconceptions, even when those preconceptions are even contrary to what the Bible explicitly says.

 

 

I ask you to try to understand what I am saying and go beyond taking scriptures out of context.

 

YOU are the one taking stuff out of context, like shown in the previous point where you try to make Isaiah 6 be a prophecy of 70AD, which the Isaiah quote IN CONTEXT simply CANNOT be about.

 

YOU need to "go beyond taking scriptures out of context" and look at what they REALLY mean!

 

 

Think about this for a moment. Hypothetically speaking, let's say that a Muslim tells you that the Koran clearly prophesied an event, thus proving that the Koran is from God. You then decide to investigate the claim and look up the Sura containing the prediction. What you read, though, clearly means something quite different when taken in context. You bring up this problem to the Muslim, and he then says that it has a dual meaning, also predicting the thing that is completely inconsistent with the context of the quote. Would you fall down and worship Allah and proclaim that the Koran is divine, or would you decide that the Muslim has clearly misrepresented the text and that there was no divine fulfillment there at all?

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Luke 8:9-10(ESV)

The Purpose of the Parables

 

And when his disciples asked him what this parable meant, he said, “To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of God, but for others they are in parables, so that ‘seeing they may not see, and hearing they may not understand.’

 

Jesus comes right out and states that his teaching is in parables so that people will not understand.

He wants to ensure that they do not understand.

If they had understood, they might convert and be healed, and Jesus didn't want that.

 

Man, talk about beating up a dead horse, how many time do I need to elucidate this point. Let's read the Luke passage:

 

9 And when His disciples asked Him the meaning of this parable,

10 He said to them, To you it has been given to [come progressively to] know (to recognize and understand more strongly and clearly) the mysteries and secrets of the kingdom of God, but for others they are in parables, so that, [though] looking, they may not see; and hearing, they may not comprehend.

 

Now, if the goal is that people would not comprehend, why speak at all?? Why?? Do you ever ask questions like that??

Jesus spoke in parables because he was supposed to be fulfilling scripture.

I already cited the passage in Isaiah and I'll be happy to do it again.

The messenger in Isaiah had the task of speaking to the people in a manner that would confuse them.

 

What is going on is this: Jesus taught in parable. Due to spiritual dullness of people, they are having a tough time comprehending what he is talking about.

Jesus taught in parables to cause spiritual dullness.

Jesus comes right out and states that his teaching is in parables so that people will not understand.

He wants to ensure that they do not understand.

If they had understood, they might convert and be healed, and Jesus didn't want that.

 

Even his disciples are having a tough time. He is willing to explain to his disciples but he did not extend same opportunity to general public. My main point is this: The information was out there. It may not be in readily understandable form but the information was public. If some guys outside of Jesus group decided to work hard at figuring out the meanings of parable, they may have succeeded.

If an outsider worked hard and managed to decipher the gibberish correctly, Jesus would have been unhappy.

The goal of God was for the messenger to keep people from understanding.

 

Mark 4:12

...and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.

 

Isa 6:10

Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.

 

 

Jesus is not teaching one thing to public and then another thing to his disciples. It is the same parables. Same information. It is just that the disciples are further along in understanding them than the general public.

 

 

DO YOU GET THIS??? How many times do I have to explain this ????

Your explanation is a rationalization that denies scripture, which is odd because as a believer you're supposed to cherish scripture as being authoritative.

 

The reason the disciples are further along in understanding is because they were permitted to know the secrets that were withheld from the public.

The public was never taught the meaning of the parables because the parables were being used to keep them from understanding.

 

Luke 8:9-10(ESV)

The Purpose of the Parables

 

And when his disciples asked him what this parable meant, he said, “To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of God, but for others they are in parables, so that ‘seeing they may not see, and hearing they may not understand.’

 

This is the key part that you cannot under any circumstance acknowledge.

Jesus used parables so that outsiders would not understand.

The scripture has to be denied in order to prop up a Christian illusion.

 

Jesus intentionally taught in a way that would obscure knowledge of what he really meant.

He didn't speak openly or frankly with the public.

His goal was to hide the meaning from them.

That's the problem.

He taught things in private that he did not teach to the public.

Then he denied teaching privately.

 

You guys seem to repeat the same thing over and over and over again. I mean, where is your brain??? Show some intellectual curiosity, man !!

Hopefully, lurkers will notice this amazing display of irony.

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You guys seem to repeat the same thing over and over and over again. I mean, where is your brain??? Show some intellectual curiosity, man !!

You remind me of the likes of Sean Hannity.

Having listened to Sean Hannity many times, I'd say your comparision is right on target.

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Interestingly enough, the history repeated. After the ministry of Jesus ( and once again the dull spiritual condition of Jews ) even a bigger exile happened - as the Second Temple got destroyed, the city of Jerusalem in total ruin, and the land of Judea uninhabited after the Jewish War by Romans. Exactly as predicted by the prophesy.

 

No, that is NOT "exactly as predicted by the prophecy." Read the Isaiah passage again. It clearly states that the quote in question was something that ISAIAH HIMSELF was supposed to PROCLAIM UNTIL the exile. Isaiah was DEAD HUNDREDS OF YEARS BEFORE the 70AD destruction of the temple. You are ignoring the clear truth right in front of your eyes.

Well said.

Isa 6 was fulfilled long before Jesus appeared.

I'm waiting for the dual prophecy rationalization on this one just as Christians rationalize Isa 7:14 into two prophecies.

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Interestingly enough, the history repeated. After the ministry of Jesus ( and once again the dull spiritual condition of Jews ) even a bigger exile happened - as the Second Temple got destroyed, the city of Jerusalem in total ruin, and the land of Judea uninhabited after the Jewish War by Romans. Exactly as predicted by the prophesy.

 

No, that is NOT "exactly as predicted by the prophecy." Read the Isaiah passage again. It clearly states that the quote in question was something that ISAIAH HIMSELF was supposed to PROCLAIM UNTIL the exile. Isaiah was DEAD HUNDREDS OF YEARS BEFORE the 70AD destruction of the temple. You are ignoring the clear truth right in front of your eyes.

Well said.

Isa 6 was fulfilled long before Jesus appeared.

I'm waiting for the dual prophecy rationalization on this one just as Christians rationalize Isa 7:14 into two prophecies.

 

Of course, we know that the "dual prophecy" or "dual meaning" argument is nothing more than a flimsy attempt to rescue the Bible from contextual flaws like these. There is nothing in the original quotes to suggest double meanings. No Christian would accept the double meaning argument from any other religion, because it's a piss-poor argument. The only reason they accept it with Christianity is because they have presupposed that Christianity is true. It's driven by an emotional attachment rather than logical assessment.

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Interestingly enough, the history repeated. After the ministry of Jesus ( and once again the dull spiritual condition of Jews ) even a bigger exile happened - as the Second Temple got destroyed, the city of Jerusalem in total ruin, and the land of Judea uninhabited after the Jewish War by Romans. Exactly as predicted by the prophesy.

 

No, that is NOT "exactly as predicted by the prophecy." Read the Isaiah passage again. It clearly states that the quote in question was something that ISAIAH HIMSELF was supposed to PROCLAIM UNTIL the exile. Isaiah was DEAD HUNDREDS OF YEARS BEFORE the 70AD destruction of the temple. You are ignoring the clear truth right in front of your eyes.

Well said.

Isa 6 was fulfilled long before Jesus appeared.

I'm waiting for the dual prophecy rationalization on this one just as Christians rationalize Isa 7:14 into two prophecies.

 

Of course, we know that the "dual prophecy" or "dual meaning" argument is nothing more than a flimsy attempt to rescue the Bible from contextual flaws like these. There is nothing in the original quotes to suggest double meanings. No Christian would accept the double meaning argument from any other religion, because it's a piss-poor argument. The only reason they accept it with Christianity is because they have presupposed that Christianity is true. It's driven by an emotional attachment rather than logical assessment.

 

Bingo.

 

Checkmate.

 

Yahtzee.

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And appealing to the amplified bible helps your case how? We all know most bible translations including the king james were decided by committee. I for example use the NIV alot because it along with the KJV are the fundementalist picks generally. In fact I have ever found the NIV changing translations to smooth out countradictions (eg smallest seed of your kind, etc)

 

So burden of proof is on you for saying that the amplified bible has the correct verbage for the verse you cited!

 

Most of the memorization I did with the Bible was with the NIV, and I probably read it the most. I also read the KJV and NASB a lot, and referenced a number of other translations.

 

As far as the NIV trying to smooth out contradictions with deliberate mistranslations, I know that it in fact does do that some. How much, I'm not sure, but one in particular that I'm aware of is this one:

 

Genesis 2:19a KJV

And out of the ground the Lord God
formed
every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air;

 

Genesis 2:19a NIV

Now the Lord God
had formed
out of the ground all the wild animals and all the birds in the sky.

 

During a previous debate with The Stranger on these boards, I dug into the Hebrew and found out that the NIV did indeed clearly mistranslate the Hebrew where it says "had formed." It appears to be a deliberate attempt to smooth over the creation order contradiction with Genesis 1. However, not only does the Hebrew word's tense clearly mean "formed" at that point in the narrative, but also in the context of the flow of events in this portion of the second creation account it clearly has to mean that the animals were created at that point. The NIV translators were being deceptive here.

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You guys seem to repeat the same thing over and over and over again. I mean, where is your brain??? Show some intellectual curiosity, man !!

 

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