Why Do You Remain A Christian?

[TrueFreedom]

Jesus is a Greek name. Most scholars agree that the cult leader from Galilee went by Y'shua/Joshua. The Jesus we all know and love is likely a Greco-Roman Pauline construct.

[JayL]

As for "souls," I've noticed that we don't seem to be self-aware 100% of the time. For instance, we may be aware of ourselves in dreams but not in non-dreaming sleep. If souls were real, why would they magically switch off in the presence of certain brainwave patterns?

That is a fascinating question. I don't have a good answer for it.

 

Fair enough. Ponder it at your leisure.

 

Good night, all; got an out-of-town gig tomorrow and have to get some ZZZ's.

 

 

 

One possible picture is this: Souls, or our consciousnesses are real ( and some argue that they are eternal - hence the concept of eternal punishment ) but they exist in a non material plane - let's call it the spiritual reality. The soul has no material manifestations except thru our material brain.

 

 

Let's say soul is like the electromagnetic waves carrying radio signals. And let's say we have our radio on and we are listening to classical music. Music is the materialistic manifestation of those unseen and not felt electromagnetic waves.

 

And then power goes off because the power plant has to do its periodic maintenance. The radio loses power and the music stops. And we ask, where did the music go? Does that mean the musical signal has disappeared? No the EM wave radio signals are still there. But the musical awareness is gone.

 

Likewise, when the physical brain goes into its maintenance run, the awareness of self is not longer there. But that does not mean that the soul has been 'switched off'. When the brain comes back online, the soulish manifestation continues and you'd say, hey, I am the same person who went to sleep last night.

 

 

 

Anyhow this is how I would think about the question by bunny goddess.

[TrueFreedom]

JayL: Would you do me the favor of answering a question? What convinces you that the Bible is the divinely inspired word of God?

[Astreja]

One possible picture is this: Souls, or our consciousnesses are real ( and some argue that they are eternal - hence the concept of eternal punishment ) but they exist in a non material plane - let's call it the spiritual reality. The soul has no material manifestations except thru our material brain.

 

Interesting start. Any particular reason it would manifest in the brain and not, say, a nerve in the leg? They're essentially made of the same stuff.

Let's say soul is like the electromagnetic waves carrying radio signals. And let's say we have our radio on and we are listening to classical music. Music is the materialistic manifestation of those unseen and not felt electromagnetic waves.

 

And then power goes off because the power plant has to do its periodic maintenance. The radio loses power and the music stops. And we ask, where did the music go? Does that mean the musical signal has disappeared? No the EM wave radio signals are still there. But the musical awareness is gone.

 

But that would imply that "the soul" is a remote entity. That actually would make the concept of eternal punishment even weirder than it already is, if the thing being punished is not under our direct control during our lifetimes.

 

Overall, Jay, good food for thought. Thanks.

[JayL]

JayL: Would you do me the favor of answering a question? What convinces you that the Bible is the divinely inspired word of God?

 

 

I became firmly convinced that the Bible is a supernatural book when I became born again. When I had my 'born again experience', one of several strange things that happened was that the Bible 'became open' to me. All of sudden, the Bible started to make sense! I simply could not believe what I had missed before - even though I made some serious attempts to read the Bible when I attended churches. ( When I was born again, I had not set foot in a church for 8 years. )

 

Now I was going thru the Bible with excitement and thinking, 'Wow I had no clue that these incredible ideas were in there!!! ' In fact I could not stop reading the Bible. This continued on for several days. This was a huge, huge change from before I had this born again experience. Before, I was getting bored by the Bible, keep falling asleep when I read the Bible. It is like before I was not able to connect the dots. And now, the whole picture seemed to open up and the Bible became understandable.

 

The change was so big, I HAD conclude that the Bible is no ordinary book. It IS a supernatural book. I believe God can speak through the Bible If one wants to encounter God, one good way may be to open up the Bible and start meditating and praying.

[JayL]

One possible picture is this: Souls, or our consciousnesses are real ( and some argue that they are eternal - hence the concept of eternal punishment ) but they exist in a non material plane - let's call it the spiritual reality. The soul has no material manifestations except thru our material brain.

 

Interesting start. Any particular reason it would manifest in the brain and not, say, a nerve in the leg? They're essentially made of the same stuff.

Let's say soul is like the electromagnetic waves carrying radio signals. And let's say we have our radio on and we are listening to classical music. Music is the materialistic manifestation of those unseen and not felt electromagnetic waves.

 

And then power goes off because the power plant has to do its periodic maintenance. The radio loses power and the music stops. And we ask, where did the music go? Does that mean the musical signal has disappeared? No the EM wave radio signals are still there. But the musical awareness is gone.

 

But that would imply that "the soul" is a remote entity. That actually would make the concept of eternal punishment even weirder than it already is, if the thing being punished is not under our direct control during our lifetimes.

 

Overall, Jay, good food for thought. Thanks.

 

 

The mammal brain, being the most complex object in the universe, could be the only material entity that could access the spiritual plane - the Platonic world of Truths.

 

Personally I subscribe to the Cartesian idea of 'Ghost in a machine'. Many 'Near Death Experience' reports seem to support the view.

 

The most important thing one can do in this life could be to recognize the Savior of the world, Jesus Christ the Son of God and be born again ( by God's power ). Then your soul may be ready to spend the eternity with God. What you have done in action - whether good or bad - may not matter all that much.

 

 

But all these are only my personal opinions and may not be backed by any theology. Anyhow, thanks for interesting questions. Good night to all.

[Thought2Much]

The change was so big, I HAD conclude that the Bible is no ordinary book. It IS a supernatural book. I believe God can speak through the Bible If one wants to encounter God, one good way may be to open up the Bible and start meditating and praying.

 

I wasted twenty years asking God to reveal himself to me, and I heard exactly jack shit from him. I guess I just didn't pray hard enough, huh? Or maybe I didn't say exactly the right magic words, so it didn't work? Or maybe I tried reading the wrong translation? Or maybe I just wasn't "open" enough? Or maybe... maybe it's all just a bunch of bullshit.

 

So, why doesn't God do one of the following things, instead?

1. Write his book in a way that we can understand so that ALL people can clearly see his true nature.
    
   
2. Give everyone the same "born again" fluffy warm fuzzy experience that you had so that we can experience the same thing as you.
   

If he's allowing some people the warm fuzzies and denying others the same experience, EVEN WHEN THEY BEG TO HEAR FROM HIM, then HE'S A DICK.

[♦ ficino ♦]

JayL: Would you do me the favor of answering a question? What convinces you that the Bible is the divinely inspired word of God?

 

 

I became firmly convinced that the Bible is a supernatural book when I became born again. When I had my 'born again experience', one of several strange things that happened was that the Bible 'became open' to me. All of sudden, the Bible started to make sense! I simply could not believe what I had missed before - even though I made some serious attempts to read the Bible when I attended churches. ( When I was born again, I had not set foot in a church for 8 years. )

 

Now I was going thru the Bible with excitement and thinking, 'Wow I had no clue that these incredible ideas were in there!!! ' In fact I could not stop reading the Bible. This continued on for several days. This was a huge, huge change from before I had this born again experience. Before, I was getting bored by the Bible, keep falling asleep when I read the Bible. It is like before I was not able to connect the dots. And now, the whole picture seemed to open up and the Bible became understandable.

 

The change was so big, I HAD conclude that the Bible is no ordinary book. It IS a supernatural book. I believe God can speak through the Bible If one wants to encounter God, one good way may be to open up the Bible and start meditating and praying.

 

I had just the same experience when I came born again, Jay. The Bible leaped into focus. Meaningful things, huge changes. I saw answers to prayer. Years later, enough examples of God's failure to live up to his promises made me question enough that I started to notice the immoral, unjust and contradictory things in the bible, which I had glossed over or explained away before.

 

My experience is more an authority for me than your experience is an authority for me, Jay. But the Bible is a piss-poor authority: contradictions, historical and scientific inaccuracy, injustice and immorality justified by assertion, no way to be sure how to interpret it (absurd that there are thousands of denominations when the church is supposed to be one).

[mymistake]

I had a similar experience only I became born again at a much earlier age, so early that I didn't read the Bible before being born again.

 

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Self-delusion

"the act or fact of deluding oneself."

 

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/09/110914131352.htm

Our species evolved the ability to delude ourselves because it gave us a survival advantage over our cousins who lacked the ability.

 

When the deluded Christian thinks the Bible makes sense he or she sees the rest of the world as a simple place filled with mystery - mystery that always ends with "God moves in mysterious ways". That is because the Biblical world view can't answer real questions. We have seen this in hundreds of debates in the Lion's Den when Thumby, Jay, End or another Christian is facing tough questions and they choose to cop out. God moves in mysterious ways is the only answer they have. If you don't agree with that answer then you must be spiritually blind just like the Bible says.

 

Once you dispell the dilusion then the Bible makes far more sense as a flawed work of different men who didn't even agree with each other. And then the world becomes a wonderful place where observation and logic can find answers through science.

[♦ ficino ♦]

I vote this one up, MM!

[Ouroboros]

Isn't it fascinating that God, The Creator™ of Reality, Existence, Truth, Morality, Universe, Life, Spirits, Math, Physics, ... can only prove himself in a 2,000 year old book that is up for interpretation and internal feelings rather than everyday smack-in-your-face enormous presences and activity? Does rain need to prove its own existence? No. It only needs to exist and we can see it, feel it, experience it... everyone, every time it happens. We know rain happens. And we know rain exists. And we can explain rain. But God? Who made rain can't do the same? No. God who made the rain only works mysteriously on people's emotions and delusions, very much the same way as all the other made-up imaginary gods in history.

[Thumbelina]

Isn't it fascinating that God, The Creator™ of Reality, Existence, Truth, Morality, Universe, Life, Spirits, Math, Physics, ... can only prove himself in a 2,000 year old book that is up for interpretation and internal feelings rather than everyday smack-in-your-face enormous presences and activity? Does rain need to prove its own existence? No. It only needs to exist and we can see it, feel it, experience it... everyone, every time it happens. We know rain happens. And we know rain exists. And we can explain rain. But God? Who made rain can't do the same? No. God who made the rain only works mysteriously on people's emotions and delusions, very much the same way as all the other made-up imaginary gods in history.

 

Bad analogy, use wind:

 

The wind blows wherever it wants. Just as you can hear the wind but can't tell where it comes from or where it is going, so you can't explain how people are born of the Spirit." John 3:8

[mymistake]

Isn't it fascinating that God, The Creator™ of Reality, Existence, Truth, Morality, Universe, Life, Spirits, Math, Physics, ... can only prove himself in a 2,000 year old book that is up for interpretation and internal feelings rather than everyday smack-in-your-face enormous presences and activity? Does rain need to prove its own existence? No. It only needs to exist and we can see it, feel it, experience it... everyone, every time it happens. We know rain happens. And we know rain exists. And we can explain rain. But God? Who made rain can't do the same? No. God who made the rain only works mysteriously on people's emotions and delusions, very much the same way as all the other made-up imaginary gods in history.

 

Bad analogy, use wind:

 

Why is it a bad analogy? Can you come up with a reason besides "it makes God look bad"?

 

The wind blows wherever it wants. Just as you can hear the wind but can't tell where it comes from or where it is going, so you can't explain how people are born of the Spirit." John 3:8

 

But we cannot hear God the way we can hear wind. We can only imagine hearing God. You can't explain how people are born of the Spirit because there is no such thing. It is imaginary. It is make believe.

 

Oh, and thank you for demonstrating my point about how Christians cop out and write everybody else off as spiritually blind. Nice touch!

[★ Citsonga ★]

JayL: Would you do me the favor of answering a question? What convinces you that the Bible is the divinely inspired word of God?

 

 

I became firmly convinced that the Bible is a supernatural book when I became born again. When I had my 'born again experience', one of several strange things that happened was that the Bible 'became open' to me. All of sudden, the Bible started to make sense! I simply could not believe what I had missed before - even though I made some serious attempts to read the Bible when I attended churches. ( When I was born again, I had not set foot in a church for 8 years. )

 

Now I was going thru the Bible with excitement and thinking, 'Wow I had no clue that these incredible ideas were in there!!! ' In fact I could not stop reading the Bible. This continued on for several days. This was a huge, huge change from before I had this born again experience. Before, I was getting bored by the Bible, keep falling asleep when I read the Bible. It is like before I was not able to connect the dots. And now, the whole picture seemed to open up and the Bible became understandable.

 

The change was so big, I HAD conclude that the Bible is no ordinary book. It IS a supernatural book. I believe God can speak through the Bible If one wants to encounter God, one good way may be to open up the Bible and start meditating and praying.

 

Translation: There's no proof that it's true, it's just a matter of feeling.

 

Jay, I had pretty much the same experience. I was "born again," felt God speak to me through the Bible, saw it all seeming to make sense and fitting together nicely.

 

More in-depth study, however, revealied that nothing could be further from the truth. The Bible is a purely human compilation of inconsistent accounts that feature fabricated prophetic fulfillments (taking "prophecies" completely out of context), absurdities, injustices, etc. No matter how good it makes you feel when you swallow the myth, it doesn't change the fact that it's a myth.

[Ouroboros]

Isn't it fascinating that God, The Creator™ of Reality, Existence, Truth, Morality, Universe, Life, Spirits, Math, Physics, ... can only prove himself in a 2,000 year old book that is up for interpretation and internal feelings rather than everyday smack-in-your-face enormous presences and activity? Does rain need to prove its own existence? No. It only needs to exist and we can see it, feel it, experience it... everyone, every time it happens. We know rain happens. And we know rain exists. And we can explain rain. But God? Who made rain can't do the same? No. God who made the rain only works mysteriously on people's emotions and delusions, very much the same way as all the other made-up imaginary gods in history.

 

Bad analogy, use wind:

 

The wind blows wherever it wants. Just as you can hear the wind but can't tell where it comes from or where it is going, so you can't explain how people are born of the Spirit." John 3:8

Works too.

 

The wind. I've felt it. It going on outside right now. I can see the trees moving from it. I can see the papers on the table flip up. I can feel it hit my skin. Everyone I know, atheists, agnostics, jews, christians, pagans, muslims... all agree that the wind is there and can be felt. You can measure the wind with a little funny looking toy with a propeller on it. You can trust the air and the wind to make kites fly, hot air balloons to travel, and so on. So there's a tremendous amount of evidence for the wind, besides that it can be tested and proven, we can even establish what it contains of. Not magic. But air. Air consists of oxygen, hydrogen, CO, CO2, water, sand particles... We know it. We can test it. We all, regardless of faith, have experience of it.

 

So where's your God? Why can only 1/3rd of the world "feel" your particular version of God and not the rest?

 

Your God doesn't even measure up to the wind. So is your God nothing but hot air?

 

Put it this way. Your God (which used to be my God too) never showed himself or did any miracles in my life. I never saw the "wind". In 47 years, nothing. In 47 years, however, I've seen the actual wind many times, more times than I can remember. Funny that such a simple thing in the world, a wind, without consciousness, proves itself constantly, while God, the creator of the wind, doesn't.

[Akheia]

More to the point, Jay, your heartfelt warm fuzzy conversion experience is felt by people who belong to religions that are categorically opposite what Christianity preaches (such as pagans, Muslims, Buddhists, and others), and is felt by people who aren't even religious at all. It's a sort of limerence, a sort of honeymoon period like when you first fall in love--remember back to a time when you fell into totally, head-over-teacup, reciprocated passion with someone else, and likely you experienced then what most people have. Everything about your beloved is ideal and stunning and wonderful. You notice *everything* about your true love. You seek and find and ferret out everything you can about them, and you love ALL of it. You don't see the bad stuff--what bad stuff? Ha! Your beloved is PERRRRRFECT.

 

Maybe you'll last for years, even decades, even forever like that with your beloved (you've not mentioned being gay and you're fundie, so forgive me if I use the wrong pronoun here). I'm 10 years in with my husband and still think sugar wouldn't melt in his mouth. Hell, we've never even had a fight. But maybe a few weeks or months or years into it you begin to notice that she chews with her mouth open. When did she start doing that? Or she doesn't clean her cat's box often enough. Or she's rude to waitstaff. Or has no idea what the word "restraint" means in the context of budgeting. Or she lives and breathes reality TV. Or she uses profanity around your mother. You start noticing shit you just never noticed before about her that turns you off and maybe isn't what you saw yourself settling down with for a lifetime. The limerence is meant to get you attached to each other for long enough to breed and ensure the baby survives. There's a reason it typically lasts for 18-24 months. And it's a genuine thing. It blinds you to reality and makes you accept flaws that normally you'd run away from. After a truly crushing breakup and recuperation, you head out into the world and do it all over again. Limerence isn't a one-time-only thing. It happens to most people several times. And every time you'll think you've never, EVER felt like THIS before.... until it wears off and you wonder why you never noticed that your NEW soulmate misuses words constantly.

 

See where I'm going with this, Jay? You're perfectly describing the clouded vision that comes with falling in love. Most of us know just what you're describing. I do. I lived just like that for a couple of years. But then I began noticing little things that were off... And here we are.

[★ Citsonga ★]

Akheia, you have a way with words. That was beautifully put, and right on the money.

[Akheia]

Thanks Christianity is a relationship, all right... just a really abusive one. Everything Jay talks about makes me think of an abusive boyfriend, right down to the initial rush and the intermittent "honeymoon" periods. But when the stakes are that high, a Christian has very few options: either to double down and stay despite the pain and cognitive dissonance and just keep quiet about the doubts, or try somehow, ANY way possible, to force it to make sense. Leaving an abuser can be very difficult; it's even harder when the abuser is a puff of magical thinking. That's a target that can be very difficult to engage.

[JayL]

Thanks Christianity is a relationship, all right... just a really abusive one. Everything Jay talks about makes me think of an abusive boyfriend, right down to the initial rush and the intermittent "honeymoon" periods. But when the stakes are that high, a Christian has very few options: either to double down and stay despite the pain and cognitive dissonance and just keep quiet about the doubts, or try somehow, ANY way possible, to force it to make sense. Leaving an abuser can be very difficult; it's even harder when the abuser is a puff of magical thinking. That's a target that can be very difficult to engage.

 

 

Happy Labor day weekend to you! Praise Jesus. I think I can relate to what you are saying here. I do not get abused by God but I get abused plenty on this board. But just this last week, I actually had one positive response! Spring goddess said, "Overall, Jay, good food for thought. Thanks." Wow! I think that may have been the first positive repsonse ever. Uh, maybe she once said similar kind remark...

 

Anyhow, my immediate thought was, 'Why don't I quit right now? Why don't I leave while I am ahead? Why come back to more abuses and insults ? etc.'

 

But here I am, a glutton for punishment. I am back to my abusive relationship on this board.

[mymistake]

Jay I remember you had a lot of positive responses before you tried to jam your religion down the throats of those who are not interested. If you don't like the negative responses you can always talk about something else. Agree to disagree regarding religion. We have been Christian. We know all about it. We are not going back. We are not interested. Accept this and we can all move on to other things.

[JayL]

More to the point, Jay, your heartfelt warm fuzzy conversion experience is felt by people who belong to religions that are categorically opposite what Christianity preaches (such as pagans, Muslims, Buddhists, and others), and is felt by people who aren't even religious at all. It's a sort of limerence, a sort of honeymoon period like when you first fall in love--remember back to a time when you fell into totally, head-over-teacup, reciprocated passion with someone else, and likely you experienced then what most people have. Everything about your beloved is ideal and stunning and wonderful. You notice *everything* about your true love. You seek and find and ferret out everything you can about them, and you love ALL of it. You don't see the bad stuff--what bad stuff? Ha! Your beloved is PERRRRRFECT.

 

Maybe you'll last for years, even decades, even forever like that with your beloved (you've not mentioned being gay and you're fundie, so forgive me if I use the wrong pronoun here). I'm 10 years in with my husband and still think sugar wouldn't melt in his mouth. Hell, we've never even had a fight. But maybe a few weeks or months or years into it you begin to notice that she chews with her mouth open. When did she start doing that? Or she doesn't clean her cat's box often enough. Or she's rude to waitstaff. Or has no idea what the word "restraint" means in the context of budgeting. Or she lives and breathes reality TV. Or she uses profanity around your mother. You start noticing shit you just never noticed before about her that turns you off and maybe isn't what you saw yourself settling down with for a lifetime. The limerence is meant to get you attached to each other for long enough to breed and ensure the baby survives. There's a reason it typically lasts for 18-24 months. And it's a genuine thing. It blinds you to reality and makes you accept flaws that normally you'd run away from. After a truly crushing breakup and recuperation, you head out into the world and do it all over again. Limerence isn't a one-time-only thing. It happens to most people several times. And every time you'll think you've never, EVER felt like THIS before.... until it wears off and you wonder why you never noticed that your NEW soulmate misuses words constantly.

 

See where I'm going with this, Jay? You're perfectly describing the clouded vision that comes with falling in love. Most of us know just what you're describing. I do. I lived just like that for a couple of years. But then I began noticing little things that were off... And here we are.

 

 

Perhaps the key to successful relationship is to constantly affirm the other partner. For example, with my wife, I try to remember to say positive things to her whenever chance arises. In the same way, I am always saying, Praise God! Thank you Jesus! etc. That way, I do not feel like I am in an abusive relationship.

 

 

This kind of reminds me of 'Animal House' movie from late 70's. ( I think it was that movie.) These two guys are trying to join fraternity. And the initiation is to get whacked on their butts. But whenever they get hit, they have to swallow their pain and say, 'Thank you, sir. May I have another?'

 

Hey, if you can do that to join a worthless fraternity, why can't I do that to make it Heaven?

 

I guess this may a poor analogy...

[mymistake]

Perhaps the key to successful relationship is to constantly affirm the other partner. For example, with my wife, I try to remember to say positive things to her whenever chance arises. In the same way, I am always saying, Praise God! Thank you Jesus! etc. That way, I do not feel like I am in an abusive relationship.

 

And God never does that for any person so it's not much of a relationship. Sorry, but imagining God doing it doesn't count. I can't expect my wife to be satisfied imagining what it would be like for me to talk to her.

 

 

Hey, if you can do that to join a worthless fraternity, why can't I do that to make it Heaven?

 

I guess this may a poor analogy...

 

Well fraternitys are known to exist. Can't say the same about heaven.

[JayL]

Isn't it fascinating that God, The Creator™ of Reality, Existence, Truth, Morality, Universe, Life, Spirits, Math, Physics, ... can only prove himself in a 2,000 year old book that is up for interpretation and internal feelings rather than everyday smack-in-your-face enormous presences and activity? Does rain need to prove its own existence? No. It only needs to exist and we can see it, feel it, experience it... everyone, every time it happens. We know rain happens. And we know rain exists. And we can explain rain. But God? Who made rain can't do the same? No. God who made the rain only works mysteriously on people's emotions and delusions, very much the same way as all the other made-up imaginary gods in history.

 

The simple explanation is that God is a Spirit being. He has only limited impacts on this material world. His greatest impacts are in the realm of information.

[JayL]

Jay I remember you had a lot of positive responses before you tried to jam your religion down the throats of those who are not interested. If you don't like the negative responses you can always talk about something else. Agree to disagree regarding religion. We have been Christian. We know all about it. We are not going back. We are not interested. Accept this and we can all move on to other things.

Jay I remember you had a lot of positive responses before you tried to jam your religion down the throats of those who are not interested. If you don't like the negative responses you can always talk about something else. Agree to disagree regarding religion. We have been Christian. We know all about it. We are not going back. We are not interested. Accept this and we can all move on to other things.

 

 

Oh come on. Give another shot for Jesus! There are some good things in the Bible.

[mymistake]

The simple explanation is that God is a Spirit being. He has only limited impacts on this material world. His greatest impacts are in the realm of information.

 

First you must demonstrate that spirit beings exist. Unless you do that your explanation is adding complexity. The simpler explanation is that God is made up. We know humans make up fictional characters.