Christopher Carrion Posted July 20, 2005 Share Posted July 20, 2005 Regard the whale and the dolphin. Creatures with all the outward physical characteristics of creatures designed to dwell beneath the ocean, but with the respiratory system of a land-dwelling, air breathing mammal. If God is the "creator", and all things were "created" as they exist now, then God is an idiot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amanda Posted July 20, 2005 Share Posted July 20, 2005 Christopher, from what I understand... the whale use to be a land animal, feeding on nutrition from the ocean, then became a predominant ocean dweller and has slowly adapted to being this current way. Perhaps it's mammal characteristics are still lingering onto these resources, to once again pursue land within the next few million years or so, should need be? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher Carrion Posted July 20, 2005 Author Share Posted July 20, 2005 Christopher, from what I understand... the whale use to be a land animal, feeding on nutrition from the ocean, then became a predominant ocean dweller and has slowly adapted to being this current way. Perhaps it's mammal characteristics are still lingering onto these resources, to once again pursue land within the next few million years or so, should need be? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> That's the point I'm making Amanda; those who adhere to "Creationism" or promote the existing Christian (or any other) Creation Myth as absolute, historical "truth" believe that all things were designed and created as they are now. Yet from the example of the whale and the dolphin it is quite clear that these creatures adapted over many millions of eyars of prowling the ocean shores to being acquatic creatures, yet still retain their environmentally inadequate respiratory systems. Therefore, if they were designed and created as they exist now, the design is not the most conducive to productivity considering their acquatic environment. In point of fact it is soemthing of a debillitation, since having t surface for air, no matter how periodically, exposes the wahles and dolphins to possible predators (i.e., us). Their very existence throws into extreme doubt the notion of a creator, and furthermore one that is "perfect" or even competent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
♦ ficino ♦ Posted July 20, 2005 Share Posted July 20, 2005 good point, I never thought of whale/dolphin respiratory systems and what follows form them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Priapus Posted July 20, 2005 Share Posted July 20, 2005 Christopher, from what I understand... the whale use to be a land animal, feeding on nutrition from the ocean, then became a predominant ocean dweller and has slowly adapted to being this current way. Perhaps it's mammal characteristics are still lingering onto these resources, to once again pursue land within the next few million years or so, should need be? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> But if the Jesus is returning any minute, aquatic mammals won't have a million years. And besides, these creatures don't evolve but rather remain static as a species, just as God intelligently designed them. If they can't come ashore to graze the fields and chase rabbits now, why would they be able to million years hence? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LloydDobler Posted July 20, 2005 Share Posted July 20, 2005 They were safe until sin caused man to create boats. Boats are sinful! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted July 20, 2005 Share Posted July 20, 2005 Here's a good one for you. Intelligent Design is based on the idea of Irreducible Complexity of certain traits or "designs". Basically something is so intricate in it's dependency between different objects, that for one to exist the other has to exist too, and they couldn't have been evolved to co-exist at the same time. Now, I'm going to play the devils advocate a little bit, get ready for gross sarcastic fundie mode... There is a parasite, the tapeworm, especially the Taenia Solium, that goes through a cycle where it depends on a pig as a host and then human as a host. For its complete life cycle to occur it has to go from one to the other. So this is an example of Irreducible Complexity, since the first tapeworm would have died unless it was transfere to one of the other species of hosts. Ok, we have to accept it was designed by God. Isn't it nice to think that God was so intelligent and benevolent that he created such a nice little creature as the tapeworm. The T.Solium oncospheres can spread through you body and form cysticerci in muscles, eyes and brain, and cause epileptic fits, and fatal infections. That's so Cool! Praise GOD he's so merciful! Let us all be God's little helpers and spread this disease right now... (end gross sarcastic fundie mode) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crazy-tiger Posted July 20, 2005 Share Posted July 20, 2005 There is a parasite, the tapeworm, especially the Taenia Solium, that goes through a cycle where it depends on a pig as a host and then human as a host. For its complete life cycle to occur it has to go from one to the other. So this is an example of Irreducible Complexity, since the first tapeworm would have died unless it was transfere to one of the other species of hosts. Ok, we have to accept it was designed by God. Isn't it nice to think that God was so intelligent and benevolent that he created such a nice little creature as the tapeworm. The T.Solium oncospheres can spread through you body and form cysticerci in muscles, eyes and brain, and cause epileptic fits, and fatal infections. That's so Cool! Praise GOD he's so merciful! Let us all be God's little helpers and spread this disease right now... <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Don't forget that he created this wonderful creature that causes so much pain out of his perfect love for us... With love like that, I wonder if it might be safer in hell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Druid Posted July 20, 2005 Share Posted July 20, 2005 Irreducible Complexity <{POST_SNAPBACK}> The complexity of my body was reduced by the removal of my appendix. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amanda Posted July 21, 2005 Share Posted July 21, 2005 Their very existence throws into extreme doubt the notion of a creator, and furthermore one that is "perfect" or even competent. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I personally think, if and when the Big Bang happened, that's how God did it. When he made man, maybe evolution is how he did it. The whole Bible is about man evolving! I think everything is going pretty perfect... we do seem to be getting better in most regards. The pendulum does swing from side to side, almost like a boat tacking to shore... the way gets narrower and narrower. We use to feed people to the lions for entertainment, like going to a football game. We use to curcify people. We use to commonly shoot someone over a poker game. We now have groups passionately fighting for the rights of people and all living things. Sure we have the nuclear bombs... maybe we'll successfully use them to offset an approaching multi-mile wide meteor heading for earth? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amanda Posted July 21, 2005 Share Posted July 21, 2005 But if the Jesus is returning any minute, aquatic mammals won't have a million years. And besides, these creatures don't evolve but rather remain static as a species, just as God intelligently designed them. If they can't come ashore to graze the fields and chase rabbits now, why would they be able to million years hence? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Priapus, is Jesus returning any minute? When he does return, he will stay awhile... a thousand years... which metaphorically could be a very, very long time... ...other things are also suppose to happen... ... then there could be a new dispensation Spiritually... no one knows, and is it really important now? Priapus, perhaps God intelligently designed them to evolve? Life is about growing and adapting... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amanda Posted July 21, 2005 Share Posted July 21, 2005 There is a parasite, the tapeworm, especially the Taenia Solium, that goes through a cycle where it depends on a pig as a host and then human as a host. For its complete life cycle to occur it has to go from one to the other. So this is an example of Irreducible Complexity, since the first tapeworm would have died unless it was transfere to one of the other species of hosts. Ok, we have to accept it was designed by God. Isn't it nice to think that God was so intelligent and benevolent that he created such a nice little creature as the tapeworm. The T.Solium oncospheres can spread through you body and form cysticerci in muscles, eyes and brain, and cause epileptic fits, and fatal infections. That's so Cool! Praise GOD he's so merciful! <{POST_SNAPBACK}> HanSolo, you are far superior to me in science... and I envy you for that... in a good way. You've taught me a lot in your posts. I'm JUST ASKING you about something that has concerned me or maybe in regards to my curiosity. Pigs were not clean to eat in OT times, perhaps for the reasons you've just presented? Why don't we see a multi-billion pig population? Was this a way they escaped extinction? I live in Florida. Growth is going crazy down here. We've had gators on the protected endangered species list for years. We are now, also invading into their homes. In the last three weeks we've had two gator related deaths of adults! Of course everyone wants to suggest its time for hunting season to open on gator meat! Is trichinosis (spelling?) the same as what you presented, and could this situation you present be an attribute that saved the pig? Just curious... no challenging you, my friend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted July 21, 2005 Share Posted July 21, 2005 HanSolo, you are far superior to me in science... and I envy you for that... in a good way. You've taught me a lot in your posts. I'm JUST ASKING you about something that has concerned me or maybe in regards to my curiosity. Pigs were not clean to eat in OT times, perhaps for the reasons you've just presented? Why don't we see a multi-billion pig population? Was this a way they escaped extinction? I live in Florida. Growth is going crazy down here. We've had gators on the protected endangered species list for years. We are now, also invading into their homes. In the last three weeks we've had two gator related deaths of adults! Of course everyone wants to suggest its time for hunting season to open on gator meat! Is trichinosis (spelling?) the same as what you presented, and could this situation you present be an attribute that saved the pig? Just curious... no challenging you, my friend. I don't know. Maybe the pigs got eaten by all Europeans instead. Or (sorry for my bad sarcasm here) maybe a bunch of them got possessed and ran into the sea... just kidding. It's a good question. I don't know. Actually I expected you to ask me how Moses would have known that pigs where bad to eat, and how he knew to make pork unholy food... Maybe they already knew there was a strong connection between pork and different diseases already then, and that's why the law was made to protect the people. They just hadn't figured out it was the cooking of the pork that made the difference. And the same actually goes for sushi and undercooked fish. (You see I played a little on your team there ) Actually I think (personal opinion here) part of the pig not being so widespread but also why the species didn’t die out could be that pigs were domesticated long time ago. Just like dogs and cows. The few free running pigs, like boars, didn't last long when civilization came to the woods. So the only pigs left are the ones raised in households, and under its protection. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amanda Posted July 21, 2005 Share Posted July 21, 2005 Actually I think (personal opinion here) part of the pig not being so widespread but also why the species didn’t die out could be that pigs were domesticated long time ago. Just like dogs and cows. The few free running pigs, like boars, didn't last long when civilization came to the woods. So the only pigs left are the ones raised in households, and under its protection. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I have a cabin at a fish camp, and I see pigs run to the gate of the fence, when their owner drives up, to greet their owner like they were dogs! They seem to be very domesticated like you say! I bet that guy would never shoot his pig! But around the corner, we have government owned parks that have hunting season on certain animals at different times... with different criteria for the hunt, including size of the prey and method of killing... and I'm sure some boars don't make it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NimbusBirdMgp Posted July 21, 2005 Share Posted July 21, 2005 When it comes to providing and cooperation. This is the worse of it. Things in life end up futile and in vain. There is somethings that need a catalyst for what I've noticed for something exceptionally wonderful. But I'm not being provided with this cooperation for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Priapus Posted July 21, 2005 Share Posted July 21, 2005 Priapus, is Jesus returning any minute? When he does return, he will stay awhile... a thousand years... which metaphorically could be a very, very long time... ...other things are also suppose to happen... ... then there could be a new dispensation Spiritually... no one knows, and is it really important now? Priapus, perhaps God intelligently designed them to evolve? Life is about growing and adapting... <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Is Jesus returning any minute? That's what Scriptures say. Be prepared. But now you've co-opted Evolution and suggest that God using it as the vehicle in his Intelligent Design scheme? God says, "I will make this creature and over the course of millions of years I will shape it and modify it gradually to live in different environments as I modify my creation, Earth." That runs wholly counter to the current Intelligent Design model which requires the current state of being to be as it was created, intentionally, and for all time. Or is this the Amanda's Design model you're describing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vixentrox Posted July 21, 2005 Share Posted July 21, 2005 God's a great designer. Thats why there a simese twins, kids born withou the thier proper organs, two headed snakes, plants that are extremely vulnerbale to disease/insects, mad cow disease, and animals that would be on the verge of extinction (or already have) even without man's interference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Priapus Posted July 21, 2005 Share Posted July 21, 2005 God's a great designer. Thats why there a simese twins, kids born withou the thier proper organs, two headed snakes, plants that are extremely vulnerbale to disease/insects, mad cow disease, and animals that would be on the verge of extinction (or already have) even without man's interference. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> No, no, no, alla the badness is the result of the Fallen World brought about by Man's Sin in the Garden. Now, designing a man who'd go a fack up a perfectly good paradise, that was weak design. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amanda Posted July 21, 2005 Share Posted July 21, 2005 Is Jesus returning any minute? That's what Scriptures say. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> No one knows the day or the hour... Be prepared. But now you've co-opted Evolution and suggest that God using it as the vehicle in his Intelligent Design scheme? God says, "I will make this creature and over the course of millions of years I will shape it and modify it gradually to live in different environments as I modify my creation, Earth." That runs wholly counter to the current Intelligent Design model which requires the current state of being to be as it was created, intentionally, and for all time. Or is this the Amanda's Design model you're describing? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Priapus, Ok... I'm open to your ideas. Can you tell me where it says in the Bible that evolution is not part of God's plan? Actually, I thought the whole Bible is about us evolving spiritually at least, teaching man to walk upright. I may think that God created everything, but I don't know how he did it... and I think science may be discovering this process. If 'everything that was made, was made by God and for God" then that would include science... in my understanding. And you know what, everything we learn we piece with other things we learn... and all of us are an individually unique person, with individual unique ideas and models... do we have to be exact replicas of someone or something else? How could anyone mentally evolve if we all did that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shy1680 Posted July 21, 2005 Share Posted July 21, 2005 God's a great designer. Thats why there a simese twins, kids born withou the thier proper organs, two headed snakes, plants that are extremely vulnerbale to disease/insects, mad cow disease, and animals that would be on the verge of extinction (or already have) even without man's interference. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Im one of his perfect creations, he forgot to put a few of my parts in, oops forgot a kidney God. I wonder will he give me that in the resurrection? And then the parts he did give me are in the wrong locations, deformed and some just plain dont work right, thank you God! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted July 22, 2005 Share Posted July 22, 2005 Im one of his perfect creations, he forgot to put a few of my parts in, oops forgot a kidney God. I wonder will he give me that in the resurrection? And then the parts he did give me are in the wrong locations, deformed and some just plain dont work right, thank you God! I'm sorry to hear that Shy. I hope you're doing okay against all odds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samurai Tailor Posted July 22, 2005 Share Posted July 22, 2005 Pigs were not clean to eat in OT times, perhaps for the reasons you've just presented? Why don't we see a multi-billion pig population? We don't? I wouldn't be surprised if there were over a billion pigs in the world. In any case, it is worth noting that humans are not the pig's only natural predator. Was this a way they escaped extinction? I'm sure it helped. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Priapus Posted July 22, 2005 Share Posted July 22, 2005 Priapus, Ok... I'm open to your ideas. Can you tell me where it says in the Bible that evolution is not part of God's plan? Actually, I thought the whole Bible is about us evolving spiritually at least, teaching man to walk upright. Human evolution, even in a psychological or spiritual context is never discussed. Genesis does not specifically say that evolution did not happen. It does say, however, that Man is Created in God's image though His manipulation of the dust. That is concrete and exclusive of other mechanisms. If you allow other mechanisms into this process, you've departed from the Bible. I may think that God created everything, but I don't know how he did it... and I think science may be discovering this process. If 'everything that was made, was made by God and for God" then that would include science... in my understanding. And you know what, everything we learn we piece with other things we learn... and all of us are an individually unique person, with individual unique ideas and models... do we have to be exact replicas of someone or something else? How could anyone mentally evolve if we all did that? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> You can think whatever you want, but once you stray from Biblical texts you're off into your own construct. You can shape that however you want, as it's your set of thoughts. I have no problem with that, if it pleases you. It cannot be subject to debate, however, since it's completely your construct at that point. You can't debate beliefs. If you invoke BibleGod with the Jesus and all, however, you must operate according to their book. The Bible's all about Man, created complete and static in Genesis, failing God's dictate in the Garden, and spending the rest of the Bible in the quest for redemption. This culminates in Christ's sacrifice which replaces all the litany of sacrifice in the Jewish tradition. All of that, however, is restorative, not evolutionary. It returns Man to the relationship he had with God before The Fall. If you start speculating that what we call species evolution was the vehicle by which God created Man and everything else, you've departed from Scripture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amanda Posted July 23, 2005 Share Posted July 23, 2005 You can think whatever you want, but once you stray from Biblical texts you're off into your own construct. You can shape that however you want, as it's your set of thoughts. I have no problem with that, if it pleases you. It cannot be subject to debate, however, since it's completely your construct at that point. You can't debate beliefs. If you invoke BibleGod with the Jesus and all, however, you must operate according to their book. The Bible's all about Man, created complete and static in Genesis, failing God's dictate in the Garden, and spending the rest of the Bible in the quest for redemption. This culminates in Christ's sacrifice which replaces all the litany of sacrifice in the Jewish tradition. All of that, however, is restorative, not evolutionary. It returns Man to the relationship he had with God before The Fall. If you start speculating that what we call species evolution was the vehicle by which God created Man and everything else, you've departed from Scripture. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Thanks for your opinion. I'll think about that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sokudo Ningyou Posted July 23, 2005 Share Posted July 23, 2005 No one knows the day or the hour...Priapus, Ok... I'm open to your ideas. Can you tell me where it says in the Bible that evolution is not part of God's plan? Actually, I thought the whole Bible is about us evolving spiritually at least, teaching man to walk upright. I may think that God created everything, but I don't know how he did it... and I think science may be discovering this process. If 'everything that was made, was made by God and for God" then that would include science... in my understanding. And you know what, everything we learn we piece with other things we learn... and all of us are an individually unique person, with individual unique ideas and models... do we have to be exact replicas of someone or something else? How could anyone mentally evolve if we all did that? But how does not knowing the day or hour make a difference? Isn't one of the en vogue predictions for him to arrive during the time of the current pope? Hell, if that's the case, it ain't very far off. And if God created everything through evolution, those are some damn long days. I wouldn't want to guess what we looked like back in Ye Olde Eden, since, according to your theory, we'd be somewhere back past Cro-Magnon....yet somehow fully evolved for proper speech, and smart enough to farm instead of simply hunting. Especially when we were also made in God's image, which makes it even more disturbing to think about. God as Cro-Magnon Oompa Loompa. And how exactly could Adam and Eve still be alive long enough to have evolved into upright mammals? That's thousands, if not millions, of years. And hunched over neo-primates are hardly the type to be wielding a rake. And we're all basically the same pattern. We make think uniquely (or so we say, until we run into the majority), act uniquely, and claim to be unique, but we all have two of several limbs, organs, and the same amount of bones for the most part. Accidents and mutations through human error and hubris nonewithstanding, you and I are no different at the basic blueprint level. Extra melatonin doesn't make me unique. Nor does my height. Environment may compensate for intelligence or height or health. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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