Your Opinions On Jesus?

[Abiyoyo]

I agree. Do you think you could practice atheism in the core of Islamic land? Doubt it. So, you as well believe what you believe because of your accidental birth into our same Western culture.

Actually I think atheism is more accepted by Muslims than they accept Christianity, and if I understand it right, their argument is that a Christian is farther away from being converted than an atheist. An atheist is basically already half-way to become a Muslim.

 

Dunno

 

 

Yoyo,

 

One does not "practice" atheism. Atheism is simply the lack of belief in gods. Anyone anywhere who can think and read can disbelieve their society's gods and any others that don't provide any evidence of their existence.

 

If you agree that your Christianity is merely an accident of where you happened to grow up, how can you assign any validity and ultimate truth to it? Your response implies that you think everyone should adopt the religion or god of their dominant society.

 

I don't think its an accident, thats the point. The two religions are twining together in this day in time. Both Christians today and Muslims are looking into the differences of each religion. Technological advances in this world are enabling this to happen. Its scary though. Because most Muslim hate Christians because most Christians believe Jesus was God. Thats another thing that got me thinking about the Jesus is God idea.

 

And from what I gather; Men instituted that idea. I can't find anything in stone Biblically that says Jesus is God; and the scripture that directs that He is, for me, easily can be looked at as He still wasn't claiming to be God.

[florduh]

Yoyo -

 

So anyone drawing from what we know as the Old Testament is part of the True Religion. Men have just muddied the waters beyond god's control.

 

BTW, Islam and Christianity are NOT twining together any more than the Jews and Christians are. Or the Mormons and the Catholics. Or the Scientologists and anyone else.

 

Men invent their gods, and each one of course invents only the Best and One True God. They will kill for superiority of their god. Or die for it.

 

It's a crazy, crippling way to live a life!

 

As for the OP, since Jesus was patterned after other pagan gods, he must also be a deity in the Bible book of fables.

[Ouroboros]

Hans. I don't agree with that. I think in no way, the Bible is existent because of fame, money, prestige, or pride. Maybe today, most; but I hardly think then. Correct me if theres anything Biblically that would say I'm wrong.

Do you seriously think that a con artist, writing a book with fictitious ideas, would put anything in there that would give it away? You're more naive than I thought!

[Abiyoyo]

Yoyo -

 

So anyone drawing from what we know as the Old Testament is part of the True Religion. Men have just muddied the waters beyond god's control.

 

BTW, Islam and Christianity are NOT twining together any more than the Jews and Christians are. Or the Mormons and the Catholics. Or the Scientologists and anyone else.

 

Men invent their gods, and each one of course invents only the Best and One True God. They will kill for superiority of their god. Or die for it.

 

It's a crazy, crippling way to live a life!

 

As for the OP, since Jesus was patterned after other pagan gods, he must also be a deity in the Bible book of fables.

 

I don't think that they are combining religions. I meant they are becoming more familiar with each others 'difference' in which results in Muslims knowing the Gospels. That is being enabled by the advancement in technology.

 

As for the closing statement in this post. Dunno. God does though.

[Abiyoyo]

Hans. I don't agree with that. I think in no way, the Bible is existent because of fame, money, prestige, or pride. Maybe today, most; but I hardly think then. Correct me if theres anything Biblically that would say I'm wrong.

Do you seriously think that a con artist, writing a book with fictitious ideas, would put anything in there that would give it away? You're more naive than I thought!

 

Well Hans. I see your point. Do you agree then, that it is the greatest piece of fiction literary to exist? The length, time frame, collaboration of stories, popularity of the book; and the realization effect that it has caused 2/3rd's of the world's population.

[mwc]

What an odd little thread. Strangely enough YoYo has almost figured it out...almost.

 

mwc

[Ouroboros]

Well Hans. I see your point. Do you agree then, that it is the greatest piece of fiction literary to exist? The length, time frame, collaboration of stories, popularity of the book; and the realization effect that it has caused 2/3rd's of the world's population.

Well, it definitely has been highly efficient. But at the same time, consider how it was collected into what it is. I don't think the book made the religion, but the opposite. It started with stories and religious drive, stories became books, religion grew, at one point the leading religious people hand-picked the books that fit what they wanted to say (political drive), and you had a book that was made to fit perfectly to the politically strongest religion. All the other gospels that were rejected are just as fantastic. So is all the Ugarit tablets, and the books by Plato, Aristotle and other philosophers... You get my point? The book was evolved, and any contradictory material was removed intentionally by the followers. Ergo, book as a result of faith. It doesn't make the faith true. And looking at the size and influence, the Quran has made the same impact, and currently is doing more impact on the world than the Bible, and it doesn't make it the greatest piece of fiction, or the greatest literary art. It's just one out of many, and many of the stories are cool, just like the stories in other classical books. It just so happens that this book was handmade by politically strong leaders, who wanted their version to be the dominant and only version. That's the idea of orthodoxy. So if orthodoxy, and the choice of the books in the Bible are important, then why the heck aren't you an orthodox Christian? Most likely because you really don't agree to what other Christians say. And why don't you? The Book doesn't give you the right answers? So your belief, and your religion, and how you interpret the Bible to fit your belief, is all signs of that religion is what you make it to. It's a human concept, and not supernatural or spiritual.

[florduh]

Hans, you are right. The book didn't make the religion, but the early religion crafted the book to suit their needs.

 

However today, it is the book alone that defines Christianity. It is just so fuzzy on several major doctrines it allows for "interpretation" as to what god really meant, thus spawning countless denominations and many independent Christians with their own personal take on it.

[Abiyoyo]

Well Hans. I see your point. Do you agree then, that it is the greatest piece of fiction literary to exist? The length, time frame, collaboration of stories, popularity of the book; and the realization effect that it has caused 2/3rd's of the world's population.

Well, it definitely has been highly efficient. But at the same time, consider how it was collected into what it is. I don't think the book made the religion, but the opposite. It started with stories and religious drive, stories became books, religion grew, at one point the leading religious people hand-picked the books that fit what they wanted to say (political drive), and you had a book that was made to fit perfectly to the politically strongest religion. All the other gospels that were rejected are just as fantastic. So is all the Ugarit tablets, and the books by Plato, Aristotle and other philosophers... You get my point? The book was evolved, and any contradictory material was removed intentionally by the followers. Ergo, book as a result of faith. It doesn't make the faith true. And looking at the size and influence, the Quran has made the same impact, and currently is doing more impact on the world than the Bible, and it doesn't make it the greatest piece of fiction, or the greatest literary art. It's just one out of many, and many of the stories are cool, just like the stories in other classical books. It just so happens that this book was handmade by politically strong leaders, who wanted their version to be the dominant and only version. That's the idea of orthodoxy. So if orthodoxy, and the choice of the books in the Bible are important, then why the heck aren't you an orthodox Christian? Most likely because you really don't agree to what other Christians say. And why don't you? The Book doesn't give you the right answers? So your belief, and your religion, and how you interpret the Bible to fit your belief, is all signs of that religion is what you make it to. It's a human concept, and not supernatural or spiritual.

 

But remember one thing. Before the Christian movement, it wasn't a political thing. It was a proven thing, constant, these peoples and their God are not going away, thing. There stories didn't turn into just books; they were legends. All the Jews thought Jesus was Elijah. Elijah! Isn't that something. Elijah had been dead and gone for hundreds of years. These people, the remnant of Israel, kept hope from their heritage and accepted Jesus. The leaders killed Jesus. So how did Jesus and the Gospels in that present have anything to do with political propaganda.

[mwc]

But remember one thing. Before the Christian movement, it wasn't a political thing. It was a proven thing, constant, these peoples and their God are not going away, thing. There stories didn't turn into just books; they were legends. All the Jews thought Jesus was Elijah. Elijah! Isn't that something. Elijah had been dead and gone for hundreds of years. These people, the remnant of Israel, kept hope from their heritage and accepted Jesus. The leaders killed Jesus. So how did Jesus and the Gospels in that present have anything to do with political propaganda.

Ouch! A painful turn for YoYo.

 

mwc

[par4dcourse]

Yo, the only reason you believe what you do is because of the accident of birth into a Western culture that holds the Bible, rather than the Koran or other holy book to be the True Word of God.

 

Your ONLY BASIS for belief is that book. Of course, people around the world and throughout history have had "ecstatic" experiences, revelations and hallucinations they attribute to their gods, but Christianity is derived SOLELY from the Bible.

 

I agree. Do you think you could practice atheism in the core of Islamic land? Doubt it. So, you as well believe what you believe because of your accidental birth into our same Western culture.

I certainly could. I could go to a fundy church on Sunday and sing and pray and cry and jump pews and speak in tongues and you'd never know that I was pretending. I had decades of practice.

Disbelief is internal and unless I make it known, I could fool the pope. I've been fooling my aged fundy parents for decades now.

Facing Mecca and praying every couple hours would be a piece of cake. I could be saying "fuck Allah" under my breath!

[Spiderwire]

Thats the point. He does. 2/3 of the Earth's population are either Christian or Islamic. Both based from the OT. As far as the division between Muslim and Christianity; its not yet come to pass. Jesus said to preach His message to all nations. People are still doing that; even in countries were the story of Jesus is blasphemy, to Muslim. My opinion- If a child is born Muslim, lives Muslim, and dies Muslim, never hearing the Christian Gospels, then I would hope God wouldn't condemn them. But the fact is, Christianity is acknowledged throughout Islamic practice. Either hated, despised, or just there. It is existent there. Especially now days. Want to know why?

The internet, satellite radio, and cable television would get the news out quite well.

 

I give a shit about Christian and Muslim and Ishmael and Isaac or any of that other historical fiction. So with that said, you're saying that God obviously doesn't care about the other 1/3 of the people on the planet today. You specified "today". God isn't revealing shit. There are multitudes of religions putting their spin on things and using modern technology to spread it far and wide, sure. The words out of your mouth (or from your keyboard) were about God making himself known. There are examples in the Bible of God himself doing just that. Are you saying that God made himself know back in the day but no longer does so because we have folks like Benny Hinn or some other fruitcake to do it for him? Again, God isn't doing anything. If God wanted to make himself known, I'd be more than receptive to that. I think a lot of people would. I don't see that happening anytime soon. 1,000 or 2,000 or 5,000 years from now.

 

What this has to do with your original post is beyond me.

 

So anyway, I encourage you to check your Bible out before you go around publicly hoping that the God you worship and adore won't condemn a child who's born Muslim, lives as a Muslim, and dies a Muslim never hearing the Christian Gospels. To kinda get you back on track, Jesus, who did, indeed, claim to be God has this nifty little religion called Christianity going on and one of his greatest hits is "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." If you're gonna play by the rules of your book, that little Muslim kid is fucked... for all eternity, by the way. You know... while you'll be basking in God's glory. But you seem to be doubting Jesus is God anyway. Damn. You may just be as fucked as that little Muslim boy and the multitudes that have come before him and that will come after him.

 

I'm simply playing your game and I ain't worried about it.

[Ouroboros]

But remember one thing. Before the Christian movement, it wasn't a political thing. It was a proven thing, constant, these peoples and their God are not going away, thing. There stories didn't turn into just books; they were legends. All the Jews thought Jesus was Elijah. Elijah! Isn't that something. Elijah had been dead and gone for hundreds of years. These people, the remnant of Israel, kept hope from their heritage and accepted Jesus. The leaders killed Jesus. So how did Jesus and the Gospels in that present have anything to do with political propaganda.

Which means that you're arguing for a Jewish movement. What Christianity became later was a Hellenistic influenced religion with mystery, innate "knowledge" of faith, and many other things that wasn't there from the start. You could say Christianity went through a couple of phases, and it began as a pure Jewish revival, and not a new Gospel from God, but just a new anointed prophet sent by God to give a fresh start in their revolt against the Romans. Then it went through several revisions, which took it away from a Messiah (anointed) Prophet religion to a Hero/God religion.

 

But you're right, the beginning of the Gospels were not political in the same sense as the latter version, but yet, it actually was political, and on these different levels:

 

1. It was part of the Jewish revolt and uprising against the Roman empire

 

2. It was part of standing up against the old, traditional and defunct Jewish religion, which just kept on spinning wheels. It was a revitalization of their faith, because the religious leaders were more of political nature than spiritual. Hence, it was an answer to politics.

 

3. The Gospels were written quite a while after the actual stories (and who knows how much or little is actual true from the stories), and they were written to amalgamate the different churches into common and united beliefs. That is highly political, not in a national view, but definitely church politics.

 

So the Orthodox church attempt to unite in a political fashion, was on a national level and connected later to the actual leadership of the empire, but it doesn't take away the fact that politics are played on many levels, and the Jesus story was highly controversial in a political sense. And when the Gospels were written, they most likely were written for that purpose.

 

Religion is politics, and sometimes politics become religion.

[Skankboy]

Religion is politics, and sometimes politics become religion.

 

To add a bit more to this point: The only political office of the Roman Empire to survive the empire, was the Roman Catholic Church (ie the Hierarchy of Bishops). It was only because of a political association that we are even talking about christianity today as a mainstream religion and not some backwater cult or extinct mystery religion (like the gnostics or the followers of the hellenistic mystery religions).

[Ouroboros]

Religion is politics, and sometimes politics become religion.

 

To add a bit more to this point: The only political office of the Roman Empire to survive the empire, was the Roman Catholic Church (ie the Hierarchy of Bishops). It was only because of a political association that we are even talking about christianity today as a mainstream religion and not some backwater cult or extinct mystery religion (like the gnostics or the followers of the hellenistic mystery religions).

So very true. It shows the power of political religion, not the truthfulness, strength, or quality of some religious literature with fictitious stories.

[Abiyoyo]

Yo, the only reason you believe what you do is because of the accident of birth into a Western culture that holds the Bible, rather than the Koran or other holy book to be the True Word of God.

 

Your ONLY BASIS for belief is that book. Of course, people around the world and throughout history have had "ecstatic" experiences, revelations and hallucinations they attribute to their gods, but Christianity is derived SOLELY from the Bible.

 

I agree. Do you think you could practice atheism in the core of Islamic land? Doubt it. So, you as well believe what you believe because of your accidental birth into our same Western culture.

I certainly could. I could go to a fundy church on Sunday and sing and pray and cry and jump pews and speak in tongues and you'd never know that I was pretending. I had decades of practice.

Disbelief is internal and unless I make it known, I could fool the pope. I've been fooling my aged fundy parents for decades now.

Facing Mecca and praying every couple hours would be a piece of cake. I could be saying "fuck Allah" under my breath!

 

That is scary, yet is what I have been trying to explain to other Christians for years. Your proof.

[Neon Genesis]

I think if for 1000-2000 yrs later, no God; people would be like they were at the time of Christ, not looking....Thats why I think the Book exists the way it is.

What the fuck? Since when the hell were there not people looking for Christ during the time of Jesus? What about Paul who was a murderer of Christians who converted to Christianity AFTER JESUS PROVED HIMSELF TO HIM? Going by your logic, Jesus should have never proved himself to Paul and we wouldn't have Christianity at all because Paul wouldn't have believed because apparently no one was looking for Jesus according to you. What about the 5000 people Paul reported in the New Testament that witnessed the resurrected Jesus AND THEY BELIEVED? What about fucking Doubting Thomas? I don't get where the hell you think people in the bible weren't looking for Jesus, but it's clear it's not from the scriptures since you've obviously haven't read it. Besides, even if people didn't accept it, why doesn't god prove himself anyway? What, is god going to break a nail because it's too much work to prove himself? What's god got to lose by proving himself to 2/3 of the world's population? If people don't accept him, fine. But why shouldn't god try it first anyway? If god is all-powerful, shouldn't it be easy for him to take five seconds out of his time to prove himself and then see what happens? What, are you saying god is too much of a coward to do it?

 

I agree. Do you think you could practice atheism in the core of Islamic land? Doubt it. So, you as well believe what you believe because of your accidental birth into our same Western culture.

Obviously, you've never heard of Ayaan Hirsi Ali: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayaan_Hirsi_Ali

 

I'm trying to understand your view; are you suggesting that God intentionally wanted religion to be changing, and a bit vague?

I thought the bible said god was not the author of confusion?

[Abiyoyo]

So anyway, I encourage you to check your Bible out before you go around publicly hoping that the God you worship and adore won't condemn a child who's born Muslim, lives as a Muslim, and dies a Muslim never hearing the Christian Gospels. To kinda get you back on track, Jesus, who did, indeed, claim to be God has this nifty little religion called Christianity going on and one of his greatest hits is "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." If you're gonna play by the rules of your book, that little Muslim kid is fucked... for all eternity, by the way. You know... while you'll be basking in God's glory. But you seem to be doubting Jesus is God anyway. Damn. You may just be as fucked as that little Muslim boy and the multitudes that have come before him and that will come after him.

 

I'm simply playing your game and I ain't worried about it.

 

If you look back Spiderman, I was saying earlier that though I read the above verse, I tried to see it as the Holy Spirit speaking through Jesus notion. Which to most Christians, and non-Christians, would be confusing. But, that doesn't mean its confusing. If you read the Gospels in that context, or light; Jesus being filled with the Holy Spirit etc, it makes more sense to me and lifts that Jesus is God notion.

 

And to add: If this was the case, then it would correspond to other things that make sense.

1. You must be baptized by water, and by the Holy Spirit to enter the kingdom of God.

2. Most protestant, acknowledging that change of importance; would not try to pin if someone has the Holy Spirit in them, as Jesus( or the Holy Spirit) said, Where the Spirit comes and goes nobody knows, just as does the wind.

3. The Muslim kid is not screwed. To you maybe, to me no. To God, me or you don't know. Agree? Then all we have to make our puny judgements on fellow men is the Book or Books that talk about that God that would be screwing this kid over. Agree?

[Neon Genesis]

And to add: If this was the case, then it would correspond to other things that make sense.

1. You must be baptized by water, and by the Holy Spirit to enter the kingdom of God.

3. The Muslim kid is not screwed. To you maybe, to me no. To God, me or you don't know. Agree? Then all we have to make our puny judgements on fellow men is the Book or Books that talk about that God that would be screwing this kid over. Agree?

Isn't this a contradiction? First you must say we have to be baptized or roast in hell. Then you turn around and say the Muslim kid isn't screwed. Why does the Muslim kid get a free pass to heaven but none of us do if we aren't baptized? And isn't it hypocritical for you to say we shouldn't make puny judgment on fellow men, then turn around and tell us we're going to hell if we aren't baptized? If it's all up to god to decide, what does it matter if we believe or not since it's all up to god to judge our hearts anyway? Either you have to be baptized to be saved and the Muslim kid goes to hell or you don't. You can't have it both ways. And question, are the apostles of Jesus going to hell since nowhere in the bible does it say the apostles were baptized?

[Abiyoyo]

I think if for 1000-2000 yrs later, no God; people would be like they were at the time of Christ, not looking....Thats why I think the Book exists the way it is.

 

What the fuck? Since when the hell were there not people looking for Christ during the time of Jesus? What about Paul who was a murderer of Christians who converted to Christianity AFTER JESUS PROVED HIMSELF TO HIM? Going by your logic, Jesus should have never proved himself to Paul and we wouldn't have Christianity at all because Paul wouldn't have believed because apparently no one was looking for Jesus according to you. What about the 5000 people Paul reported in the New Testament that witnessed the resurrected Jesus AND THEY BELIEVED? What about fucking Doubting Thomas? I don't get where the hell you think people in the bible weren't looking for Jesus, but it's clear it's not from the scriptures since you've obviously haven't read it. Besides, even if people didn't accept it, why doesn't god prove himself anyway? What, is god going to break a nail because it's too much work to prove himself? What's god got to lose by proving himself to 2/3 of the world's population? If people don't accept him, fine. But why shouldn't god try it first anyway? If god is all-powerful, shouldn't it be easy for him to take five seconds out of his time to prove himself and then see what happens? What, are you saying god is too much of a coward to do it?

 

Ok. So You want to know why God doesn't show himself today. Is your question why doesn't He show Himself everyday? or why doesn't He make you special and show you personally? or why doesn't He come down today, say He is God, and then all will know at the present time?

 

I agree. Do you think you could practice atheism in the core of Islamic land? Doubt it. So, you as well believe what you believe because of your accidental birth into our same Western culture.

Obviously, you've never heard of Ayaan Hirsi Ali: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayaan_Hirsi_Ali

When I originally stated this; it was geared more to 'this'. Though it may be easier than a Christian, it is still opposed and it is highly possible you will not live, especially if all your family, friends, relatives, etc were Muslim. Its different there. You might think it, but you wouldn't act in it most likely. Hey, but whatever, if you think you'll survive, move there. Good luck.

[Ouroboros]

I thought the bible said god was not the author of confusion?

God was a little confused when he wrote that...

[Abiyoyo]

And to add: If this was the case, then it would correspond to other things that make sense.

1. You must be baptized by water, and by the Holy Spirit to enter the kingdom of God.

3. The Muslim kid is not screwed. To you maybe, to me no. To God, me or you don't know. Agree? Then all we have to make our puny judgements on fellow men is the Book or Books that talk about that God that would be screwing this kid over. Agree?

Isn't this a contradiction? First you must say we have to be baptized or roast in hell. Then you turn around and say the Muslim kid isn't screwed. Why does the Muslim kid get a free pass to heaven but none of us do if we aren't baptized? And isn't it hypocritical for you to say we shouldn't make puny judgment on fellow men, then turn around and tell us we're going to hell if we aren't baptized? If it's all up to god to decide, what does it matter if we believe or not since it's all up to god to judge our hearts anyway? Either you have to be baptized to be saved and the Muslim kid goes to hell or you don't. You can't have it both ways. And question, are the apostles of Jesus going to hell since nowhere in the bible does it say the apostles were baptized?

 

Who said you can't have it both ways. Why confine God to a Book? The Apostles? How the hell should I know man. Ask God.

[Ouroboros]

Yoyo, are you becoming a Unitarian by chance?

 

Who said you can't have it both ways. Why confine God to a Book? The Apostles? How the hell should I know man. Ask God.

Exactly. If God exists, no one can claim A Book has the only, and absolute description of God. If God is above and beyond our comprehension, it's ridiculous to think a 2,000 year old book could say it in the only comprehensible way! It's a fundamental contradiction!

[barbiebrains100]

RE: Original question:

 

Not only did I believe that Jesus=God, but I steadfastly believed that the transubstantiated Eucharist was the body of Christ and hence, God. I remember having the living crap scared out of me when I was 11 years old because I RAN out of a church with my back towards the altar where the Eucharist is kept. My Roman Catholic parents explained that I could not just bolt out of a church but had to face the altar, make the sign of the cross, genuflect and THEN walk out. God was present in the Eucharist which was kept above the altar and I had to dismiss myself from God's presence. Theatrics. For weeks, I lived in mortal fear of having offended Jesus/God. Theatrics. It gets easier to ape the beliefs of those around you who are also pretending...everyone fakes it...including the priest who understands better than anyone else that priestlycraft is all about negotiated theatrics.

 

However, a lesson in the literal and the figurative was in order for me:

 

It is very useful to learn the difference between "literally" and "figuratively". If something happens literally, it actually happens; if something happens figuratively, it feels like it is happening. If you are literally jumping for joy, for instance, it means you are leaping in the air because you are very happy. If you are figuratively jumping for joy, it means you are so happy that you could jump for joy but are saving your energy for other matters.

 

Spinoza understood the theatrics of belief: "Immense pains have therefore been taken to counteract this evil by investing religion, whether true or false, with such pomp and ceremony, that it may rise superior to every shock, and be always observed with studious reverence by the whole people (...)"

 

I love Spinoza.

[Abiyoyo]

Yoyo, are you becoming a Unitarian by chance?

 

Who said you can't have it both ways. Why confine God to a Book? The Apostles? How the hell should I know man. Ask God.

Exactly. If God exists, no one can claim A Book has the only, and absolute description of God. If God is above and beyond our comprehension, it's ridiculous to think a 2,000 year old book could say it in the only comprehensible way! It's a fundamental contradiction!

 

The Book is not the confinement of God, but the recordings of God and my primary reference. Its like this. My little brain can, but doesn't want to go swimming in the Pacific Ocean. I try to keep it simple. I was born. Raised Catholic, went to Protestant, went to just God and me(no church); yet not thinking about God but knowing He is there. To full fledge diving into the Why, How, When, Where, and for What of religion. Which has been a rocky road. But whatever the case may be. Bible bogus, We just die go to the dirt; whichever. I think theres a God, and choose the religion of Israel as my 'way'. Weirdly though, I choose to honor the Muslims Muhammad's story in my thoughts as well. But, I believe Jesus was more than what the Muslims think of him.