Your Opinions On Jesus?

[Abiyoyo]

...To say that you said this or that is invalid because this is what you did say: "I would have been more excited if you would have chosen to ask the question regarding if He should show Himself to everyone everyday. Thats a hard one to think on."

 

I even quoted that in my response to you. But now you don't seem so "excited" by this question. You seem to want to pretend this question doesn't exist and simply side-step the entire issue. Luckily, I'm not asking this question. It's too easy to dismiss as unrealistic. I am, however, asking a realistic version of this this question.

 

Honestly, do you think that "I believe God can be wherever He wants, whenever He wants" is an answer? Just re-word it to "goddidit" or "goddoesit" and you'll see why I think it's not.

 

mwc

 

Fair enough. I Answered that earlier as well. http://www.ex-christian.net/index.php?show...st&p=389359

[Heimdall]

Just a quick question yoyo, are you any kin to the vegetarian nut by the same name on Koreabridge forums?

http://www.koreabridge.com/forums/index.ph...amp;#entry53716

Your's is a strange user ID...Heimdall

[Abiyoyo]

You're just too precious Yo-Yo. And I wouldn't normal respond, but i'm bored, so what the heck.

First...How would your day go? I'd say exactly as it is now. Because, other than the physical manifestation- this is what God already does. EVERYTHING IS THE SAME! He does know your thought, everything you do, yada yada yada.

 

I was saying if God physically everyday visited you personally. So, yeah, He doesn't do that now, which would make it different. Even though I believe God exists, and believe He knows our thoughts etc; It still would be different if at some point in everyday, God came and had a chat with me.

 

This logic, or these questions, when posed, always brings up the same thought in me. If an all-powerful God created this evil, deliberately allows it to propagate, and prefers to allow his people to suffer. Then is he really worthwhile? Of course, I know he doesn't exist, but it's an interesting thought for those who do believe. Why follow a genocidal maniac who is ultimately responsible for the world's pain and prefers to allow it to continue?

 

Suffering, pain, loss, hurt are all apart of human life, with or without God; if it were absent, the human race wouldn't exactly be the way it is. I say that from one thought. When people die, we are sad. If God eliminated sadness, pain etc from the human race, then we would not be us, earth, the world. Your life would not be the same. We would be like fish. Swim and die.

 

Why did God create the demons in the first place? Hmm? If your God is responsible for all things, he's responsible for all them too.

 

I guess the same reason He made humans, whatever that is. A better question is why did God give/let Satan have the power he has to temp, destroy, etc? But, supposedly, through reading, seeing, living Christ etc, people can live free of Satan and temptation. Though it's alot harder to do than it sounds.

[Abiyoyo]

Just a quick question yoyo, are you any kin to the vegetarian nut by the same name on Koreabridge forums?

http://www.koreabridge.com/forums/index.ph...amp;#entry53716

Your's is a strange user ID...Heimdall

 

No. That was funny

[Neon Genesis]

Suffering, pain, loss, hurt are all apart of human life, with or without God; if it were absent, the human race wouldn't exactly be the way it is. I say that from one thought. When people die, we are sad. If God eliminated sadness, pain etc from the human race, then we would not be us, earth, the world. Your life would not be the same. We would be like fish. Swim and die.

So, would heaven be an impossibility then since there is no pain or suffering in heaven and suffering and pain is somehow magically necessary for us to be us? And where in the bible does it say that suffering is necessary for us to be as we are?

[chefranden]

Not so fast, Chef....Here is proof of God's existence... You cannot possibly refute the evidence....

 

 

ARGUMENT FROM BLINDNESS

 

(1) God is love.

(2) Love is blind.

(3) Stevie Wonder is blind.

(4) Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

(5) Therefore, God exists.

I Shoulda known!

[Abiyoyo]

So, would heaven be an impossibility then since there is no pain or suffering in heaven and suffering and pain is somehow magically necessary for us to be us? And where in the bible does it say that suffering is necessary for us to be as we are?

 

No, I wouldn't think an impossibility; but not in our capacity to understand. Heaven may just be different. Why would God wipe away our tears if there was no sadness in heaven? Jesus said we we'll be as the angels; however they are. It doesn't say in the Bible suffering is necessary. It's just obvious that life now would be extremely different if there wasn't suffering.

[Antlerman]

So, would heaven be an impossibility then since there is no pain or suffering in heaven and suffering and pain is somehow magically necessary for us to be us? And where in the bible does it say that suffering is necessary for us to be as we are?

 

No, I wouldn't think an impossibility; but not in our capacity to understand. Heaven may just be different. Why would God wipe away our tears if there was no sadness in heaven? Jesus said we we'll be as the angels; however they are. It doesn't say in the Bible suffering is necessary. It's just obvious that life now would be extremely different if there wasn't suffering.

God wiping away all tears is in reference to leaving behind this horrible, awful existence that Christianity hopes to save us from (as opposed to making it better). It's saying there will be no more tears in heaven because this awful world has been put to an end. Revelation 21:4, "He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away."

 

As far as being like the angels, that was simply in reference to the question about marrying and giving away your daughter as property. Mark 12:25, "When the dead rise, they will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven."

 

It's interesting to see you quote the Bible so context-free, context-free within the very verse itself nonetheless! You will do well as a New Age guru.

[chefranden]

No, I wouldn't think an impossibility; but not in our capacity to understand. Heaven may just be different. Why would God wipe away our tears if there was no sadness in heaven? Jesus said we we'll be as the angels; however they are. It doesn't say in the Bible suffering is necessary. It's just obvious that life now would be extremely different if there wasn't suffering.

 

Speaking of heaven. If God wanted a heaven full of people, why didn't he just create a heaven full of people? Why the middle man? (Middle Earth?) Why create the vast universe with only one speck of dust producing your peopled heaven?

 

Maybe there are billions of specks all producing only one or two people for heaven. Maybe Jesus and Gandhi get to go but the rest of us are fucked no matter what we believe.

[Ouroboros]

And also, why the heck create 100 billion galaxies, with 100 billion stars in each galaxy, just to make one frigging planet with the "ultimate plan?" Such a waste of intelligence and energy, and it doesn't serve any purpose! The universe is too BIG for a God!

[OnceConvinced]

So, would heaven be an impossibility then since there is no pain or suffering in heaven and suffering and pain is somehow magically necessary for us to be us? And where in the bible does it say that suffering is necessary for us to be as we are?

 

No, I wouldn't think an impossibility; but not in our capacity to understand. Heaven may just be different. Why would God wipe away our tears if there was no sadness in heaven? Jesus said we we'll be as the angels; however they are. It doesn't say in the Bible suffering is necessary. It's just obvious that life now would be extremely different if there wasn't suffering.

God wiping away all tears is in reference to leaving behind this horrible, awful existence that Christianity hopes to save us from (as opposed to making it better). It's saying there will be no more tears in heaven because this awful world has been put to an end. Revelation 21:4, "He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away."

 

I agree with this interpretation, all though having said that, I think it's pretty safe to assume there will some major heart ache and pain in Heaven. It will be eternal agony knowing that your loved ones who never accepted Christ and never made it to Heaven are writhing and in agony in Hell, while you are up there. Imagine how miserable Heaven will be, having that knowledge. God's gonna have to do a hell of a lot of wiping away tears if you ask me. He's gonna have to do more than that if people are going to enjoy Heaven.

[par4dcourse]

I don't know, OC, I read a survey of RC's recently that showed they overwhelmingly agreed they'd be happier in heaven if they could see their protestant counterparts in hell. Brotherly love my ass! I'll try to find it and post a link.

[Antlerman]

I agree with this interpretation, all though having said that, I think it's pretty safe to assume there will some major heart ache and pain in Heaven. It will be eternal agony knowing that your loved ones who never accepted Christ and never made it to Heaven are writhing and in agony in Hell, while you are up there. Imagine how miserable Heaven will be, having that knowledge. God's gonna have to do a hell of a lot of wiping away tears if you ask me. He's gonna have to do more than that if people are going to enjoy Heaven.

Maybe they'll be too afraid to cry seeing what happens to those whom he chooses to damn for his glory. If it says tears will be gone, He means it... or else....

[chefranden]

There will have to be sin in Heaven because God doesn't want to loved by ROBOTS. And it is a fact that without sin we are ROBOTS (or so I'm told over and over).

[Ouroboros]

There will have to be sin in Heaven because God doesn't want to loved by ROBOTS. And it is a fact that without sin we are ROBOTS (or so I'm told over and over).

Exactly.

 

Sin is the result of free will. Free will is the greater good, and is required for being a "non-robot".

 

Besides, Satan had a free will in Heaven when he rebelled against God. So if Angels have free will and can oppose God, even after begin in his direct presence and see his "face", then so must humans after death. Which leads to the possibility that Heaven might just be another phase of the everlasting battle between obedience to God and independence. Seems like the Bible forgot to tell the followers some basic facts about their God and future...

[mwc]

Fair enough. I Answered that earlier as well. http://www.ex-christian.net/index.php?show...st&p=389359

So that is your answer?

 

Alright. I'll deal with it.

 

1.We would be confined people. Think about it. If you woke up in the morning, and knew at some point in that day God will show Himself to you. ... How would your day go? Mine wouldn't. I think God doesn't reveal Himself daily to us because our mental capacities couldn't handle it.

Pre-earth creation. Confined. Adam and Eve. Confined. Abraham. Confined. Jacob. Confined. Moses. Confined. Post-Revelation Earth. Confined. Anything and everything that "god" ever has or ever will "show" himself to. Confined. Freedom is NOT knowing your god personally.

 

Are you absolutely certain this is what you really want to tell me? Or do you want to concede it is merely convenient to your current argument and there is really no reason why your "god" of choice shouldn't make appearances?

 

2.The earth. How would it be? Seriously, there are truly sick people out there, and if you say there aren't, your in denial. What happens to them? Does God just take the demons out of them, or does God destroy the actual person? Jesus casted demons out of people, the OT God never ventured this. Recall, Saul. Saul's infirmity. David played the harp to sooth him. Why didn't God cast Saul's demon out when he went looking for David to kill him and Saul ended up prophecing with Samuel?

Your point being? I'm not going to bother looking up chapter and verse as that got me nowhere earlier but as I recall "every knee shall bow and every tongue confess." Even the "demons" knew jesus. Likewise I imagine they would know their creator "god." So upon appearing I doubt these "demons" would have much of a chance to maintain their refuge. I've no need to debate over Saul since that story also proves that soothsayers truly do have powers and that "souls" head to the "underworld." All silly gibberish. Saul wasn't cured because he didn't spin the Hoodle-brood rock under Undoperwood tree in the manner described by the Opedidus book. Does that ease your mind?

 

How would that go? Why didn't Jesus cast the 'obvious' demon out of Judas? Is the will of God more important than the need of our life on earth? Jesus was crucified, by people, Why didn't He save Himself? If God was here, He is the will, so there is no more will of God to be done.

The "demon" in Judas was the Satan itself and in G.Mark Judas is not "possessed" of anything at all making this magical exorcism all the more difficult.

 

To answer your next question "The will of God" you'd need to define "god" and then its "will." You've so far been unable to do this. Even in the theoretical bible world I'm working in the "will" of "god" is impossible to define. Save people from things that only it has the power to create in the first place. Nice.

 

Jesus never existed. But for your sake lets continue. Jesus failed to save himself because he was busy being nailed to a cross.

 

So "god" is all out of "will?" How disappointing. I guess that whole prayer "Thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven" is just a steaming load of shit then? God's "will" gets done nowhere since he is all out. Considering that the Satan rebelled in heaven that must have been his will considering it always gets done in heaven (jesus said so) and then we're told that we should wish for that same level of control to be done here too. Now you're telling us that he's basically all done. Jesus taught them how to pray for about a day or so. Effective.

 

Lets say God casts every demon, satanic thing out of earth, just us. Then I guess that would be Revelation. Agree? Then the Bible is true, and laid out just as it was suppose to, other than the part that everybody lives forever, even those with the infirmities. Most say all the End time prophecies already happened, so it would line up.

You sure believe in magical demons and other, well, lets just call them "stupid" things. I'm not calling you stupid just these things you believe in. It makes it very difficult to wade through the things you type.

 

According to Revelation the Tree of Life is in the New Jerusalem and that is what allows people to live forever. It's not about demons and evils that makes people sick that prevents them from aging it is the lack of this magic tree. The waters from the throne come out and water the magic tree and that heals but it's the fruit of the tree, that only a select group can eat from, that gives the everlasting life. "Wicked" people still live on the earth as do kings and nations and all that junk (which is strange that a "god" would require all that). I thought you'd know all this nonsense? It's in your book.

 

Lets say God kills all the people that are truly wicked on earth. Judges everyone own their own to what they've done or not done etc. Separates the afterlife, the wicked in one place, the not wicked with Him. That would leave us at the Garden of Eden, and the Book of Adam( if you accept that), being tempted yet by Satan, againist God.

Again. Read your book. You have a very wrong impression of your own afterlife. You're are going by Revelation (don't confuse it with other passages elsewhere). Just skip to the end and read. Some are allowed into the city but others are not. Those in the city can eat the fruit but those outside the city cannot. This all happens after the "second death" where everything is tossed into the lake o' fire. Strangely enough there are still "bad" people running around the all new earth. They just don't reap the benefits of those inside the city. The planet itself never returns to a "garden" state. Ever. That's not in the text but only in the wishful thinking of xians.

 

-Lets say God kills every one wicked, same as above; but instead of just tempting God's people to do things, he just tries to battle God. He loses because, God is God. Right? So. Then we have Revelations.

"He loses because, God is God. Right?" What? Let me tell you a story. There once was a god named Cronus. His son Zeus rose up against him with an army and destroyed him. Who would have thought that this could have happened? But it did. It ain't over 'til it's over. Maybe your ancient "god" just ain't up to task? You already said he's lost his "will" above.

 

Oh, and if you don't think what happened to Cronus can't happen to your "god" because Cronus is just a story...keep thinking.

 

My point is this, if God revealed Himself in all Glory being God and all. Something has to happen to the people that are wicked on earth. Agree? I wish the Bible was explicit about the first scenario.

The summation. Finally. The "meat" of the argument as it were.

 

So your point is that "god" hides away so he doesn't have to actually do his stated/intended job?

 

Keep in mind that when your jesus cast out demons that he only did exactly that...he cast out the demons. He did not punish the person who was possessed of the demon(s). The "god" you speak of, on the other hand, punished the talking snake even though it was supposedly only possessed of a demon (per xian doctrine). In the Revelation, if you are correct, the "wicked" seem to be "wicked" because of these "demons." When the "demons" are cast out, however, your "god" will again also cast away/punish the "innocent" host. This differing from jesus who would simply remove the "demon." So which is it? Can the "demon" be dealt with without harming the host or do both of them get cast away/punished? You make the argument for both.

 

Once you manage to answer that just keep in mind that your own system of beliefs includes a "god" that is omnipresent so whether that "god" is visible or invisible it is present everywhere. Just like visible light or "invisible" light (to the naked eye) it is there whether we can see it or not.

 

Your argument hinges on the idea that your "god" cannot simply move from the invisible spectrum to the visible spectrum and not absent/non-existent to present/existent. These are two different concepts and you are arguing that as long as your "god" remains invisible to us (remember we are still visible to it) that it doesn't have to deal with us but if it does become visible to us then for some reason it does have to deal with us. Again visible and present are different. It is always present and it always sees us. So why must it begin punishing us only when we can see it and not any other time? Why does "evil" or "demons" only bother it when it becomes visible to us?

 

You think about how your "logic" isn't so much and how you've not answered my question yet. Maybe we'll get there someday.

 

mwc

[dunany77]

Think about what you just said and then reread what I wrote. I said 'how did Jesus and the Gospels in that present'; as in that present time. In response to a statement earlier posted, that conveyed prior to the death of Jesus, the Jewish leaders were in some type of political propaganda. Not after.

Keep in mind that the only source for these stories comes from the bible alone.

[Religion Destructor]

He never existed. That is my opinion.

[Heimdall]

Keep in mind that the only source for these stories comes from the bible alone.

Also keep in mind that the two gospels reporting the Birth do not agree and neither agree with recorded history. The “deal breaker†question is why did Joseph and Mary, who were not Roman subjects (citizens of an independent, albeit Roman client, state) respond to a taxation summons of the Roman Emperor? It would be similar to the descendents of the Confederate troops that immigrated to Mexico after the Civil war returning to the USA in answer to a taxation summons by President Bush. Neither is bloody well likely to happen. Heck, Matthew has Jesus born in 1st century BCE and Luke has him born in 1st century CE and in neither case would Jesus be baptized by John the Baptist, die after John or be executed by Pontius Pilate…the timelines just don’t fit with recorded history. Yoyo, read my thread "Are the Gospels inerrant", you might be surprized at what you will learn. - Heimdall

[dunany77]

Yoyo, read my thread "Are the Gospels inerrant", you might be surprized at what you will learn. - Heimdall

YoYo, here is the link to Heimdall's thread. Check it out!

 

Are the gospels inerrant

[Jubilant]

I wanted peoples opinions from a "been there" "done that" and currently not perspective. I was thinking about religion, church and just started running scripture in my head, and wondered why alot of church goers say Jesus is God. From what I gathered, He's not.

 

My husband and I never believed that God was Jesus, it didn't make any sense to us at all...however, I was a mainstream fundy. I buried the doubt because I thought I'd go to hell if I didn't believe the trinity doctrine. I used to give my poor children the Apple or Candle examples to try and make sense of it all, lol.

[TheOtherRainMan]

At one time in my life, I believed that Jesus was the son of God.

 

After a lot of research, I came to the conclusion that Jesus probably did exist, but he wasn't the son of God.

I believe that he was a man of the people who wanted to spread the message of one love another and such.

 

He probably said he was the son of God to get their attention.

 

- TORM

[Munk]

um, duh. of course i did. i was christian.

[Heimdall]

After a lot of research, I came to the conclusion that Jesus probably did exist,

How did you come to that conclusion...what evidence did you have? - Heimdall