Atheist And Abortion?

[Misterspock1]

I'm sorry all. It was a bad day today. This is also just a very emotional topic for me, and I think my arguments were based more out of emotion rather than logic. I just didn't want to fly off the handle and say something stupid. Thank you for your understanding.

 

I'll probably still read the thread, just because the topic is of interest to me, but I doubt I'll post anymore about it.

 

We always talk about the mothers rights to renege on bearing and raising a child, but nobody seems to care about the men in this regard.

You do make a valid case, and as a man, I understand.

 

it only add some extra flavor to the discussion! (If you get my double entendre)

Yeah, though shoe leather doesn't have what I'd call a good flavor...

[dance]

This is the problem with medical ethics,we can't break new ground until the correct "plow" comes along.

 

There wouldn't be a problem if the man hadn't been "plowing" in the first place.. This 'aborting parental duties' talk is not a new ethical problem evoked/provoked by new technology. This is classic: man impregnates woman, woman has child, man flees fatherhood. (It is exactly the same the other way around, too)

 

It's kinda telling when people would consider granting absent fathers legal absolution before even approaching a woman's legal right to do w.e the hell she feels like with her body for w.e reason.

 

Dhampir restated the issue at stake:

 

The point, and the only relevant issue, is that presently, fatherhood is granted by the whim of the mother. To talk about fairness, it doesn't do to neglect that.

 

Not to sound too much like Joe Rat, but in reality fatherhood(& motherhood) become relevant when when people first have sex. You gotta know that there's always going to be that chance, however improble birth 'control' renders pregnancy. Broken condoms, missed days on the pill, visectomies(sp?) gone wrong, entrapment, [insert bizarre circumstance here], etc. This possibility should invite people to prepare for it: ie., men should know that if they can't brow-beat their squeeze into getting an abortion, then they're going to become fathers; women should know that if they're birth control fails, they're going to start expanding. Simply put, it's reasonable to demand that sexually active people evaluate and account for the potential consequences of their actions.

 

So, from that, I see mother & father assenting to parenthood when they decide to go for penetration. (Ftr, I also see them both assenting to the possibility of an abortion) :/ It's like the principle behind car insurance: I accept the possibility of getting into a traffic incident by paying insurance. & you know what happens when people who don't have car insurnace get into collisions? They go to jail/get banned from driving for years/sued in civil court for all they're worth/will be worth. I think we may fairly apply the same principles to the sexually active, and that when we do, the 'fairness' about becoming a father on the whim of the mother goes out the window. Basically, penetration = consent to an abortion && to diapers, swingsets, & college tuition. If you don't agree with that, then the issue then reverts to the fairness her getting an abortion in the first place (ground already covered in this thread, so... cool it.) or (||) the fairness of legal protection afforded to those types of single mothers.

 

-dance

[Ouroboros]

it only add some extra flavor to the discussion! (If you get my double entendre)

Yeah, though shoe leather doesn't have what I'd call a good flavor...

A small mocha, cream lather, but hold the shoe-strings; they get stuck in my teeth.

[woodsmoke]

So, from that, I see mother & father assenting to parenthood when they decide to go for penetration. (Ftr, I also see them both assenting to the possibility of an abortion) :/ It's like the principle behind car insurance: I accept the possibility of getting into a traffic incident by paying insurance. & you know what happens when people who don't have car insurnace get into collisions? They go to jail/get banned from driving for years/sued in civil court for all they're worth/will be worth. I think we may fairly apply the same principles to the sexually active, and that when we do, the 'fairness' about becoming a father on the whim of the mother goes out the window. Basically, penetration = consent to an abortion && to diapers, swingsets, & college tuition. If you don't agree with that, then the issue then reverts to the fairness her getting an abortion in the first place (ground already covered in this thread, so... cool it.) or (||) the fairness of legal protection afforded to those types of single mothers.

 

-dance

You had me up to this point. One you started into the "Dammit, kids should just be responsible!" preaching, though, I had to break course.

 

It's all well and good to say people should be responsible, and I agree. Responsibility is certainly a virtue. However, much as we'd like them to be, history, psychology and sociology all do a pretty good job of showing people, by and large, aren't an especially responsible bunch. So it's great to hope for the best, but it's really just foolishness not to plan for the more likely contingencies.

 

Also? Penetration ≠ consent to parenthood. That is the very kind of pure, unadulterated bullshit we're fed by the religious right in their efforts to police our thoughts and make sure we give them money every time we think about doing something our bodies have evolved to tell us is is a really good idea. Penetration = consent to fucking. Not a damn thing more. The fact our legal system doesn't necessarily see it that way is a problem with the law, not the way we think. The law exists as a social construct to serve the needs of human civilization; if it fails to account for human idiosyncrasies like that, it needs to be changed to do so.

 

I went through a pregnancy scare when I was 18. Shortly after breaking up with my girlfriend at the time, she called and informed me her period was late. She hadn't been raised in any particular religion, but she still had all the cultural programming, and when we were together had been seriously marriage and baby-crazy. I knew damn well neither one of us were anywhere near ready for the responsibility of raising a child, so naturally I told her my view on the situation, if it turned out she really was pregnant, was to get an abortion. I'm sure you can imagine how well that went over. Here I'm suddenly staring down the prospect of my life as I want it to be potentially being flushed down the drain simply because I was a typical horny teenager, and there's absolutely nothing I can do about it. The direction of the rest of my life lay solely in the hands of a young woman who was just as naive and ill-prepared as I, but also chock-full of turbulent and contradictory emotions which actually lashed out at me when I tried to interject some much-needed logic into the situation.

 

Of course, fortunately for both of us, it turned out she wasn't pregnant, and her period arriving late was probably caused by stress. That experience taught me several valuable lessons. Not just responsibility, but also that expecting teenagers whose brains haven't fully developed yet to act like adults and accept the consequences like one when they don't is, in the words of George Carlin, "just plain fuckin' stupid." Everyone makes mistakes when they're young. Expecting them to own up to those mistakes to the extent the rest of their lives are irrevocably altered by it when there exist alternatives which don't necessarily invalidate the experience, but can allow people to move on from those mistakes without requiring such drastic change, however, is ignorant and hypocritical at best, grossly arrogant and incredibly harmful at worst.

[Dhampir]

So, from that, I see mother & father assenting to parenthood when they decide to go for penetration. (Ftr, I also see them both assenting to the possibility of an abortion)

Clearly, the first statement is false based on the second statement. Besides which, given how early sexual urges present themselves (13-14 ish) and the subsequent experimentation many people go through at that age, almost always without any forethought, it is quite ludicrous to assert that assent to parenthood is a given. Sure, they probably know what can happen, but how often do you think people that age really internalize that knowledge?

 

And as to adults, MOST pregnancies are unplanned, even by people who want kids, plan to stay together, and have the stability to provide for their needs. Passion doesn't lend itself to the clearest of minds.

[dance]

So, from that, I see mother & father assenting to parenthood when they decide to go for penetration. (Ftr, I also see them both assenting to the possibility of an abortion) :/ It's like the principle behind car insurance: I accept the possibility of getting into a traffic incident by paying insurance. & you know what happens when people who don't have car insurnace get into collisions? They go to jail/get banned from driving for years/sued in civil court for all they're worth/will be worth. I think we may fairly apply the same principles to the sexually active, and that when we do, the 'fairness' about becoming a father on the whim of the mother goes out the window. Basically, penetration = consent to an abortion && to diapers, swingsets, & college tuition. If you don't agree with that, then the issue then reverts to the fairness her getting an abortion in the first place (ground already covered in this thread, so... cool it.) or (||) the fairness of legal protection afforded to those types of single mothers.

 

-dance

You had me up to this point. One you started into the "Dammit, kids should just be responsible!" preaching, though, I had to break course.

 

It's all well and good to say people should be responsible, and I agree. Responsibility is certainly a virtue. However, much as we'd like them to be, history, psychology and sociology all do a pretty good job of showing people, by and large, aren't an especially responsible bunch. So it's great to hope for the best, but it's really just foolishness not to plan for the more likely contingencies.

People do what they shouldn't, therefore plan to deal with irresponsible people. So far so good.

 

Also? Penetration ≠ consent to parenthood. [...] Penetration = consent to fucking. Not a damn thing more.

Can you give an argument to that effect? I've put it in terms of car insurance: paying car insurance is a kind of consent to the possibility of a traffic incident. The logic is that since there is a possibility of a traffic accident, everyone is required to get a driver's license, register their vehicles, & pay for insurance. If they don't do these things, they aren't allowed to drive.

 

I admit that I'm not expecting to get into an accident when I drive across town for a cup of coffee. But since I do know that it's possible, I take steps to make it improbable (similar to using birth control): I drive with caution, etc. Nevertheless, I know that every sort of traffic incident could happen despite all these efforts. So I don't grumble about training/paying for a license, registration, and insurance.

 

Likewise, if you penetrate your girlfriend then you better be aware that you may become a father.

 

I went through a pregnancy scare when I was 18. Shortly after breaking up with my girlfriend at the time, she called and informed me her period was late. She hadn't been raised in any particular religion, but she still had all the cultural programming, and when we were together had been seriously marriage and baby-crazy. I knew damn well neither one of us were anywhere near ready for the responsibility of raising a child, so naturally I told her my view on the situation, if it turned out she really was pregnant, was to get an abortion. I'm sure you can imagine how well that went over. Here I'm suddenly staring down the prospect of my life as I want it to be potentially being flushed down the drain simply because I was a typical horny teenager, and there's absolutely nothing I can do about it. The direction of the rest of my life lay solely in the hands of a young woman who was just as naive and ill-prepared as I, but also chock-full of turbulent and contradictory emotions which actually lashed out at me when I tried to interject some much-needed logic into the situation.

 

Of course, fortunately for both of us, it turned out she wasn't pregnant, and her period arriving late was probably caused by stress. That experience taught me several valuable lessons. Not just responsibility, but also that expecting teenagers whose brains haven't fully developed yet to act like adults and accept the consequences like one when they don't is, in the words of George Carlin, "just plain fuckin' stupid." Everyone makes mistakes when they're young. Expecting them to own up to those mistakes to the extent the rest of their lives are irrevocably altered by it when there exist alternatives which don't necessarily invalidate the experience, but can allow people to move on from those mistakes without requiring such drastic change, however, is ignorant and hypocritical at best, grossly arrogant and incredibly harmful at worst.

Thank you for sharing your story. I disagree with some of what you've said, but I would rather not have the argument made personal, you know what I mean? I'll do my best to stick to the general ideas in your narrative and avoid the actual history.

 

I don't think it's 'just plain fucking stupid' to expect teenagers to act responsibly. It's a weaning process, the change from adolescence to adulthood, and a basic part of that process is the imposition of those types of expectations. There is no age line that bifurcates adolescence from adulthood. Some people never grow up. Moreover, and maybe even just as important, kids will act like yobs if that's all they're expected to be. Our best hope as parents & as adult members of society is to treat teens like adults & hope for the best.

 

The fact is that when some reckless & randy teenagers become pregnant, the damage is already done. When some kid drives his car into the wrong lane of traffic and causes a fatal accident, the damage is already done. The fact that they're teens or that they're irresponsible doesn't absolve them, it merely serves as a weak set of mitigating circumstances which may result in slightly lighter sentencing - so to speak. Having sex is like being on the road, and people should know what they're getting into.

 

Someone is going to term, what's to be done? Someone got hurt in that accident, how did this happen? You sound like the verve pipe -- "For the life of me, I cannot believe we'd ever die for these sins, we were merely freshmen." That the people in these situations are young is not the primary tragedy, it's peripheral.

[HappyChef]

Dance,in a debate it is considered good form to take the entire argument IN context,not cut out the part that you can use to tie your knickers in a bunch with. Breaking new ground refered to the invention of the ventilator and nothing to do with your opinion of sexual ethics.

 

Inertcourse is no more grounds for what might happen(pregnancy and the associated choices) than anal sex is grounds for colonostomy to treat rectal cancer.

 

Whether you like it or not abortion is a surgical procedure,there are laws involved, if you are a man those laws will never include you or your opinion UNTIL said laws are changed.

 

Again my point is you are a spectator only until your wife/gf and you face the choice or a bill comes up for a vote which you have a right to cast.

 

Car insurance is protection against property damage,an accident as a result of human error,is one possibility.Many possibilities of damage are aspects of said protection,fire, flood acts of DOG. lol

 

" can you give an argument to that effect?" ONLY if every penetration resulted in pregnancy would your condom hold a penis. What ? thats what you wanted to hear isn't it.

 

You and your opinion matter in a debate and are welcome and lets get together to change the laws that need it.

 

Peace,Daniel

[HappyChef]

I don't believe in abortion as main stream BC.I would never support a woman in my life, in the act of aborting the child!

 

I will never say not to do it or that it is wrong to anyone.Even that woman in my life.I don't justify my opinion because it doesn't matter in the scheme of the law,or a womans reproductive freedom.

 

I can not say that I wouldn't have one if I were a woman and were forced to make that choice.

 

Daniel

[woodsmoke]

Can you give an argument to that effect? I've put it in terms of car insurance: paying car insurance is a kind of consent to the possibility of a traffic incident. The logic is that since there is a possibility of a traffic accident, everyone is required to get a driver's license, register their vehicles, & pay for insurance. If they don't do these things, they aren't allowed to drive.

 

I admit that I'm not expecting to get into an accident when I drive across town for a cup of coffee. But since I do know that it's possible, I take steps to make it improbable (similar to using birth control): I drive with caution, etc. Nevertheless, I know that every sort of traffic incident could happen despite all these efforts. So I don't grumble about training/paying for a license, registration, and insurance.

 

Likewise, if you penetrate your girlfriend then you better be aware that you may become a father.

One you'll consider valid which may actually influence the way you see the situation? Probably not. You seem to lean pretty heavily toward the side of justice without mercy.

 

The thing about the legal system you're conveniently glossing over? Even if a person is at fault in a traffic accident, if it's found there were involved extenuating circumstances which may have distracted her/his attention or motivated her/him to conclude driving with less than optimal caution was worth the risk, that individual is likely to receive a much lighter penalty than one who was simply willfully throwing caution to the wind. Just like someone who steals a loaf of bread because (s)he was starving or to feed her/his family will get a lighter penalty than one who steals simply because (s)he doesn't want to pay for it. That the law doesn't have a similar attitude toward sexual responsibility is, again, a problem with the law.

 

Thank you for sharing your story. I disagree with some of what you've said, but I would rather not have the argument made personal, you know what I mean? I'll do my best to stick to the general ideas in your narrative and avoid the actual history.

 

I don't think it's 'just plain fucking stupid' to expect teenagers to act responsibly. It's a weaning process, the change from adolescence to adulthood, and a basic part of that process is the imposition of those types of expectations. There is no age line that bifurcates adolescence from adulthood. Some people never grow up. Moreover, and maybe even just as important, kids will act like yobs if that's all they're expected to be. Our best hope as parents & as adult members of society is to treat teens like adults & hope for the best.

 

The fact is that when some reckless & randy teenagers become pregnant, the damage is already done. When some kid drives his car into the wrong lane of traffic and causes a fatal accident, the damage is already done. The fact that they're teens or that they're irresponsible doesn't absolve them, it merely serves as a weak set of mitigating circumstances which may result in slightly lighter sentencing - so to speak. Having sex is like being on the road, and people should know what they're getting into.

 

Someone is going to term, what's to be done? Someone got hurt in that accident, how did this happen? You sound like the verve pipe -- "For the life of me, I cannot believe we'd ever die for these sins, we were merely freshmen." That the people in these situations are young is not the primary tragedy, it's peripheral.

Wow. Way to excise all context and take my point to the ridiculous extreme. Bravo, sir.

 

I never said it's stupid to expect teens to demonstrate responsibility. I said it's stupid to expect them to demonstrate it to the same level as one would expect of a fully mature adult. Their brains haven't fully developed until at least 18 years of age, and sometimes they're psychologically incapable of thinking a situation all the way through and considering all the potential implications like an adult can. Nor did I say they should be treated with kid gloves in view of that fact. What I was advocating was compassion. Understanding the differences between you and the people in this situation, and the details of the situation itself, and judging accordingly, rather than simply applying one universal standard and bringing everyone from jaywalkers to child-raping sociopaths before it.

 

You're right, when a couple teens let their hormones get the better of them and conception happens, there is some damage done. However, the whole point of abortion and the right to choose is they're damage control. Just like seat belts and cars designed to absorb impacts by crunching up at the point of impact.

 

You're also right that age is merely a side note, though youth often accompanies the situations wherein these problems arise, specifically because most adults are assumed to be capable of taking care of and solving problems themselves. Such consideration is rarely extended to youths in similar situations, with justification both good and bad, so it stands to reason any discussion centering about the topic of unwanted pregnancies and abortions will include a fairly involved consideration of the youth element.

 

If someone is going to term, what's to be done is to examine the situation from all practical angles, consider the circumstances and causes surrounding it, explain the options available and try to help those at the center of it all choose the best one(s) for them as individuals. Regardless of the decision made, that experience will stick with them for the rest of their lives. To think allowing any woman to get an abortion of an unwanted pregnancy is going to somehow encourage an irresponsible and flippant attitude in her is nothing short of ludicrous, and has virtually no basis in rational thought.