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Neon Genesis

Question For Christians About Biblical Inerrancy

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Several passages teach that the Bible was authored by God the Holy Spirit - and that God taught men spiritual words, that God guided the men as they wrote the Scriptures, that God commanded men to write down His words, and that all Scripture is "God-breathed", etc.

Can you show me where it says this in regard to the New Testament books? That might be a bit of a trick, because there was no NT book until the 4th Century.

 

SO - if God cannot guide men to write an inerrant document, that would indicate weakness in God, an inability to produce pure truth through men. If God cannot produce an inerrant book, can He save sinners?

These are interesting logic arguments, but not evidence really. Can't I logically say that if God cannot produce pure truth through men by saving them, then why is it hard to believe that fallible men produced a fallible document, regardless of God's involvement? He was involved in saving them too, right? Is everything they do without error now?

 

In addition, Jesus believed the Bible was accurate. Jesus believed in Creation, Adam & Eve, the Flood, Moses using the serpent in the wilderness to cure snake bite, etc.

No, not necessarily. The authors of the Gospels have Jesus saying this in their story, but that doesn't mean the real Jesus ever said this. More later..... Besides that, why couldn't he have just been using the stories of their mythology to communicate to them? I can speak of the joy that Santa brings, without necessarily believing he is an actual person. Why couldn't Jesus just use Adam and Eve symbolically?

 

And also, the Old Testament has been used by archeologists successfully for many years.

Ummm.... NO. That's incorrect. Archeology has show a very different history than what the OT says. That's a simple fact. There was no Conquest of Joshua as described with all those cities falling. The Jews never came out of Egypt. The Jew themselves were in fact Canaanites who left the urban areas after Egypt pulled out of that area, moving up into the highlands and mingling with other indigenous groups, who after 2 Centuries became a state under the Monarchy. That's what archeology shows. You can't deny the facts on the ground.

 

Regarding the Life of Jesus; four Gospels were composed from eye-witness accounts. The Gosples were written by Apostles or close associates of Apostles.

Oh, they are not. Mark is the original narrative Gospel account, then Matthew and Luke slavishly copy Mark's stories into their expanded version, plus use a second source document they copied verbatim. So that Matthew and Luke's "eyewitness account" only agree when they copy mark, and when they copy "Q" (the second document). Once they don't copy someone else, then they do not agree with each other. They differ and contradict. So much for your "eyewitness accounts".

 

What's more, if you look at the ancient manuscripts, none are originals, and no two are alike. So how do you know which one is the "right" account". This is wishful belief on your part. Nothing more.

 

The thought that a bunch of fisherman from Galilee could pass off documents claiming Deity & Messiah status for a carpenter from Nazareth - which then went on to become a world religion - is simply not tenable.

Oh, the evolution of myth is totally understandable. It happens all the time in religions. Christianity is no exception.

 

If there were serious contentions about New Testament in Israel - most of whom did not believe in Jesus - then the Bible would have been readily exposed and rejected by the unbelievers and Jews of that time.

Not possible. The Bible, the New Testament, did not exist until the 4th Century. There was a great many Christian writings in circulation and use in Christianity back them, including some very different views of Jesus, completely contradictory, such as the Gospel of Judas which shows Judas as the hero of the story. It wasn't until a couple hundred years later that the powers of the time rejected writings that didn't agree with how they saw things.

 

So I ask, how on earth could the Jews reject something that didn't exist?

 

But rather, the New Testament was not proven false then - or now. People claim the Bible is wrong - but there are no proofs that any statement in the Bible is false.

Wrong. It's been proven to be something other than how you think it is. Does proof matter?

 

In summary - inerrancy hangs on the Bible defined as God's word - God cannot be mistaken; and historical/archeological evidence confirms Biblical accuracy.

And since it hangs on those, it falls. Inerrancy is a fallacy, only believed in through the denial of facts. None of what you offer is factual.

 

Then without inerrancy, there's the issue of determining what is true or false in Scrupture. Who's qualified to determine that which is and that which is not God's word?

Now isn't that the question. How do you propose a solution?

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Regarding the Life of Jesus; four Gospels were composed from eye-witness accounts. The Gosples were written by Apostles or close associates of Apostles. The thought that a bunch of fisherman from Galilee could pass off documents claiming Deity & Messiah status for a carpenter from Nazareth - which then went on to become a world religion - is simply not tenable.

 

Ha, I almost missed this. Are you really for real? You read like a Josh McDowell book.

This claim is just silly,

Mohammad was an illiterate trader who got lucky and married a rich woman.

Confucius was the son of a old Soldier who married a 20 year old woman when he was near 60, Confucius was a nobody from an unimportant Provence and by the time of his death he commanded so much respect that even the emperor of China would have been afraid to cross him.

Buddha was the son of a wealthy ruler who left everything behind and became penniless.

In any of these cases and more you could argue that it was not "tenable" for a world religion to be founded because of the acts of these men. But it happened.

 

 

If there were serious contentions about New Testament in Israel - most of whom did not believe in Jesus - then the Bible would have been readily exposed and rejected by the unbelievers and Jews of that time.

 

What like L. Ron Hubbard has been exposed for the fraud he is? Like UFO and Bigfoot nuts are all exposed? What about people who still think Elvis is alive? For the first 50 years or more, Christianity was likely no bigger than these groups...most people probably thought they were kooks, but hardly worth refuting. Even if they had would the Christians have listened? You can tell a Realian that his beliefs are non-sense all day but he will keep believing.

 

There were all sorts of kooky cults at that time, just as there are now, Christianity was just lucky enough to be at the right place at the right time to become dominant.

 

Allow me to reply >>

 

Muhammad gained about 70 followers, some were rich and well-connected. After moving to Medina, he then commanded his followers to conduct raids on unarmed caravans from Mecca traveling unarmed during times of treaties. SO Muhammad began to amass his fortune, giving 80% of the spoil to his followers, and he kept 20%. Soon most of Medina feared Muhammad's militray power and acquiesced to him - leading to the surrender of Mecca and the military defeat of the Saudi peninsula. Then after this, Islam spread primarily by warriors who were promised rich spoils of war, and Paradise if they died in service to Allah.

 

Confucius started a very popular religion, but certainly not a world-wide religion. Same goes for Buddha. And remember - they did not claim to be God Incarnate. the Anointed One whose death paid the debt of sin, whose resurrection from the dead proved His Deity. The messages of Confucius and Buddha were on par with Solomon, proverbs to guide proper living.

 

Just as L.Ron's Scientology, etc have certainly been challenged & refuted, many First Century Jews and other people rejected and persecuted Christianity. And within 50 years Christianity had spread throughout Asia Minor (modern-day Turkey), Israel, Syria, Armenia, Aram (modern-day Iraq), Greece, and even into North Africa. As Christianity continued to spread, ten separate state-sponsored persecutions were conducted in the eastern part of the Roman Empire. Yet Christianity continued to grow and spread. Almost always considered by kings and governments as subversive to their control of the masses, Christianity was ruthlessly oppressed and persecuted. And yet, the Gospel cannot be stopped.

 

How do you explain this? The Power of the Myth? Are you serious?

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Confucius started a very popular religion, but certainly not a world-wide religion. Same goes for Buddha.

Buddhism, not a worldwide religion? Are you serious?

 

In the city where I live, I just counted ten varieties of Buddhism currently being practiced: Rinzai Zen, Theravada, Jodo Shinshu, SGI/Nichiren, Tibetan, Vietnamese Pure Land, Chinese Pure Land, Lao, Vipassana, Insight Meditation., (I, Myself, have been a member of two of those groups over the years).

 

And if a philosophy can survive over 2500 years and make it all the way from Budhgaya, India to Winnipeg, Canada, I think that definitely qualifies it as worldwide in scope.

 

Personally, I think that Shakyamuni didn't claim to be God Incarnate because gods were completely irrelevant to what he was trying to teach.

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As Christianity continued to spread, ten separate state-sponsored persecutions were conducted in the eastern part of the Roman Empire. Yet Christianity continued to grow and spread. Almost always considered by kings and governments as subversive to their control of the masses, Christianity was ruthlessly oppressed and persecuted. And yet, the Gospel cannot be stopped.

 

How do you explain this? The Power of the Myth? Are you serious?

 

Pick up a real history book. Part of what helped christianity gain supremacy was FEAR of new diseases wiping everyone out in large job lots. The Plague of Justinian was what helped shake the foundations of Rome. And later, the Black Death.

 

Christianity started losing it's hold when the year 1000 came and went without the world coming to an end. The process has been slow, thanks to stubborn denial, restriction of knowledge, and outright persecution of nonbelievers, but that process has continued.

 

And whether you like it or not rayski...the arrival of the internet and free access to valid information and verifiable knowledge? It's speeding up the end for your religion. You actually believe 2000 years of belief = truth? Then PICK UP a damn history book, because worship of the Egyptian gods went on for LONGER than your particular delusion has. It still ended. So will yours.

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Muhammad gained about 70 followers, some were rich and well-connected. After moving to Medina, he then commanded his followers to conduct raids on unarmed caravans from Mecca traveling unarmed during times of treaties. SO Muhammad began to amass his fortune, giving 80% of the spoil to his followers, and he kept 20%. Soon most of Medina feared Muhammad's militray power and acquiesced to him - leading to the surrender of Mecca and the military defeat of the Saudi peninsula. Then after this, Islam spread primarily by warriors who were promised rich spoils of war, and Paradise if they died in service to Allah.

 

Christianity inevitably became a religion of military conquest as well. Can you say Mulvian Bridge? Can you say Richard the Lion-Hearted? We even heard George W. Bush use Old Testament imagery about the angel and the whirlwind in one of his State of the Union addresses. Whatever patches you want to use to defend your religion against the actions of individual believers, it still doesn't disqualify the fact that Jesus specifically mentions swords and their proper use in the Gospels (namely Matthew 10:34 and Luke 22:36). I say this because many followers of Christ tends to throw out single verses and expecting me to dig for the deeper meaning. I am just returning the favor.

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Muhammad gained about 70 followers, some were rich and well-connected. After moving to Medina, he then commanded his followers to conduct raids on unarmed caravans from Mecca traveling unarmed during times of treaties. SO Muhammad began to amass his fortune, giving 80% of the spoil to his followers, and he kept 20%. Soon most of Medina feared Muhammad's militray power and acquiesced to him - leading to the surrender of Mecca and the military defeat of the Saudi peninsula. Then after this, Islam spread primarily by warriors who were promised rich spoils of war, and Paradise if they died in service to Allah.

 

Sure, and Christianity was also small and unimportant until it became the state religion of Rome because Constantine felt he could use it to hold the society together. Everyone was forced to convert with little more choice than was given by the Muslims in the middle east. Much of Christian history consists of your religion being foisted upon others through violence or threats of violence. Surely you are not so ignorant as to believe that Islam is the only religion that used fear to propagate itself. My point, which you seem to have missed is that Islam started from humble beginnings just as Christianity did, so your argument was faulty.

 

Confucius started a very popular religion, but certainly not a world-wide religion. Same goes for Buddha. And remember - they did not claim to be God Incarnate. the Anointed One whose death paid the debt of sin, whose resurrection from the dead proved His Deity. The messages of Confucius and Buddha were on par with Solomon, proverbs to guide proper living.

 

What does this have to do with anything. I could claim I was the great purple polka-dotted guru in the sky and it wouldn't make it true even if a billion people came to believe it. A book that says someone was resurrected is not the same as proof. Do you understand that?

 

Besides are you claiming that Christianity IS world wide? I live in a country full of people who are proof that this is not true. There are plenty of places full of people who don't give a flip about your god. If you don't like it, tough cookies.

 

Just as L.Ron's Scientology, etc have certainly been challenged & refuted,

 

Right, yet people still believe it...which was my point if you had bothered to pay attention. Refuting something, even effectively doesn't make everyone stop believing it.

 

many First Century Jews and other people rejected and persecuted Christianity. And within 50 years Christianity had spread throughout Asia Minor (modern-day Turkey), Israel, Syria, Armenia, Aram (modern-day Iraq), Greece, and even into North Africa.

 

PROOF PLEASE, I happen to have majored in biblical studies in college so I know that modern biblical scholars hotly debate both of these claims. It is far from proven that they are so. Christianity rewrote history when it became dominate and tended to overblow its own early history.

 

For one thing early Christianity was not a uniform group there were many major groups besides the proto-orthodox church. The Essenes, the Gnostics, the Marcionites, are these names even familiar to you? When the proto-orthodox church took control of Rome in the 4th century it tried to erase all traces of these groups which held wildly different theologies.

 

As Christianity continued to spread, ten separate state-sponsored persecutions were conducted in the eastern part of the Roman Empire. Yet Christianity continued to grow and spread. Almost always considered by kings and governments as subversive to their control of the masses, Christianity was ruthlessly oppressed and persecuted. And yet, the Gospel cannot be stopped.

 

Again, PROOF, bald assertions of things that are not agreed upon by serious scholars just makes you look ignorant...or duplicitous.

 

Can you provide any documentation to back up the claim that there was wide spread persecution of Christians in the first century? If you can then why are you on this forum and not addressing a group of historians and scholars. They would surely want to know of this proof you have.

 

 

How do you explain this? The Power of the Myth? Are you serious?

 

My explanation? That would be that you are an ignoramus who has a poor grasp of history, both in and outside of Christianity, and that you have a very poor understanding of human psychology. People can and DO often believe false things for great periods of time, even dying for them. All it takes is a little cognitive dissonance, mix that with the fact that even a broken clock is right twice a day (sometimes wrong thinking can still lead to correct conclusions)

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Just take another dump and run, Ray?

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Then without inerrancy, there's the issue of determining what is true or false in Scrupture. Who's qualified to determine that which is and that which is not God's word? Would mere humans seek to stand in judgment of God? Is that advisable? How do you guard againsrt human biases and weaknesses in this process?
If simply believing the bible is the inerrant word of God, then why are there over 35,000 denominations of Christianity in existence with completely different interpretations? Why is it that even Christians who believe the bible is the inerrant word of God can't agree with each other on what the bible teaches? Like does the bible teach modern day Christians can speak in tongues or lay hands on others or does it say those gifts ended with the deaths of the apostles? Does it teach that Christians have to be baptized to be saved or do they just have to say the sinner's prayer? Does the bible say Christians have to be baptized submerged in water or does the bible teach you just have to be sprinkled? Why can't even bible-believing Christians agree with each other?

And considering the Holy spirit is supposed to assist in interpretation and it is supposed to guide Christians to the truth, it's doing a pretty lousy job.

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Christianity is such a religion of fear it's no wonder it's survived. The threat of Hell, especially eternal suffering is enough to scare a lot of ignorant people into submission. False religions have thrived for hundreds of years, so why not Christianity too?

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OK lets look at some bible contradictions and atrocities, then try and convince us the bible is even close to accurate:

 

Was abraham justified by faith or works?

romans 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory.

contradicted by James 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

 

How many sons did abraham have?

 

these claim just one

Hebrews 11:17 By faith Abraham when he was tried, offered up Isaac, ... his only begotten son. Genesis 22:2 Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, ... and offer him there for a burnt offering. These claim more then one

 

These claim several

Genesis 16:15

And Hagar bare Abraham a son: and Abram called his son's name, which Hagar bare, Ishmael. Genesis 21:2-3 For Sarah conceived, and bare Abraham a son is his old age .... And Abraham called him Isaac. Genesis 25:1-2 Then again Abraham took a wife, and her name was Keturah. And she bare him Zimran, and Jokshan, and Medan, and Midian, and Ishbak, and Shuah. Galatians 4:22 Abraham had two sons; the one by a bond-woman, and the other by a free woman.

 

How about contradictory creation accounts?

 

Genesis 1:25-27

(Humans were created after the other animals.) And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good. And God said, Let us make man in our image.... So God created man in his own image.

Genesis 2:18-19

(Humans were created before the other animals.) And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him. And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.

Genesis 1:27

(The first man and woman were created simultaneously.) So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. Genesis 2:18-22

(The man was created first, then the animals, then the woman from the man's rib.) And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him. And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them.... And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof; And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man. Want more? Sure lets go:

Heres a biggie, adultery:

 

forbidden?

 

Exodus 20:14, Deuteronomy 5:18 Thou shalt not commit adultery. Hebrews 13:4 Whoremongers and adulterers God will judge.

 

Or allowed?

 

Numbers 31:18 But all the women children that have not known man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves. Hosea 1:2 And the Lord said to Hosea, Go, take unto thee a wife of whoredoms.... Hosea 3:1 Then said the Lord unto me, God yet, love a woman beloved of her friend, yet an adulteressHeaven or hell? Everyone goes to heaven, contradicted by some going to hell:

Everyone goes to heaven:

 

1 Timothy 2:3-4 God our Saviour; who will have all men to be saved. 2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is ... not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

 

NOT everyone goes to heaven:

 

Proverbs 16:4 The Lord hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil. John 12:40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them. Romans 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. 2 Thessalonians 2:11-12 God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned.

 

Can god do anything?

 

These say he can do anything:

 

Genesis 18:14 Is any thing too hard for the LORD? Job 42:1-2 Then Job answered the LORD, and said, I know that thou canst do every thing.... Jeremiah 32:17 Ah Lord God! ... there is nothing too hard for thee. Jeremiah 32:27 Behold, I am the Lord, the God of all flesh: is there any thing too hard for the Lord?; Matthew 19:26, Mark 10:27 With God all things are possible. Luke 1:37 For with God nothing shall be impossible. Luke 18:27 The things which are impossible with men are possible with God. Revelation 19:6 The Lord God omnipotent reigneth.

 

These say god CANNOT do everything:

 

Judges 1:19 And the Lord was with Judah; and he drave out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron. Mark 6:5 And he could there do no mighty work. Hebrews 6:18 It was impossible for God to lie. ------------------------------------------

reference http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/by_name.html

------------------------------------------

 

Now lets look at atrocities:

 

  1. Matthew
  2. Those who bear bad fruit will be cut down and burned "with unquenchable fire." 3:10, 12
  3. Jesus strongly approves of the law and the prophets. He hasn't the slightest objection to the cruelties of the Old Testament. 5:17
  4. Jesus recommends that to avoid sin we cut off our hands and pluck out our eyes. This advice is given immediately after he says that anyone who looks with lust at any women commits adultery. 5:29-30
  5. Jesus says that most people will go to hell. 7:13-14
  6. Those who fail to bear "good fruit" will be "hewn down, and cast into the fire." 7:19
  7. "The children of the kingdom [the Jews] shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." 8:12
  8. Jesus tells a man who had just lost his father: "Let the dead bury the dead." 8:21
  9. Jesus sends some devils into a herd of pigs, causing them to run off a cliff and drown in the waters below. 8:32
  10. Cities that neither "receive" the disciples nor "hear" their words will be destroyed by God. It will be worse for them than for Sodom and Gomorrah. And you know what God supposedly did to those poor folks (see Gen.19:24). 10:14-15
  11. Families will be torn apart because of Jesus (this is one of the few "prophecies" in the Bible that has actually come true). "Brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death." 10:21
  12. Jesus says that we should fear God who is willing and "able to destroy both soul and body in hell." 10:28
  13. Jesus says that he has come to destroy families by making family members hate each other. He has "come not to send peace, but a sword." 10:34-36
  14. Jesus condemns entire cities to dreadful deaths and to the eternal torment of hell because they didn't care for his preaching. 11:20-24
  15. Jesus will send his angels to gather up "all that offend" and they "shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth." 13:41-42, 50
  16. Jesus is criticized by the Pharisees for not washing his hands before eating. He defends himself by attacking them for not killing disobedient children according to the commandment: "He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death." (See Ex.21:15, Lev.20:9, Dt.21:18-21) So, does Jesus think that children who curse their parents should be killed? It sure sounds like it. 15:4-7
  17. Jesus advises his followers to mutilate themselves by cutting off their hands and plucking out their eyes. He says it's better to be "maimed" than to suffer "everlasting fire." 18:8-9
  18. "And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors." 18:34
  19. In the parable of the marriage feast, the king sends his servants to gather everyone they can find, both bad and good, to come to the wedding feast. One guest didn't have on his wedding garment, so the king tied him up and "cast him into the outer darkness" where "there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." 22:12-13
  20. Jesus had no problem with the idea of drowning everyone on earth in the flood. It'll be just like that when he returns. 24:37
  21. God will come when people least expect him and then he'll "cut them asunder." And "there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." 24:50-51
  22. The servant who kept and returned his master's talent was cast into the "outer darkness" where there will be "weeping and gnashing of teeth." 25:30
  23. Jesus tells us what he has planned for those that he dislikes. They will be cast into an "everlasting fire." 25:41
  24. Jesus says the damned will be tormented forever. 25:46

And thats ONLY one book, as an example, there are hundreds more atrocities and acts of evil done by "god" in the bible:

 

-----------------------------------------------------------------

reference http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/cruelty/long.html

-----------------------------------------------------------------

 

BEFORE you start claiming the bible is true and infallible, try reading it, with an open mind.

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Guest kcdad
Thats a pretty good site florduh. Thansk for posting the link.

 

The "Apologetics" responses are very lame and are the not representative of true scholarship. I have seen and heard better excuses than these.

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Guest kcdad
Muhammad gained about 70 followers, some were rich and well-connected. After moving to Medina, he then commanded his followers to conduct raids on unarmed caravans from Mecca traveling unarmed during times of treaties. SO Muhammad began to amass his fortune, giving 80% of the spoil to his followers, and he kept 20%. Soon most of Medina feared Muhammad's militray power and acquiesced to him - leading to the surrender of Mecca and the military defeat of the Saudi peninsula. Then after this, Islam spread primarily by warriors who were promised rich spoils of war, and Paradise if they died in service to Allah.

 

Sure, and Christianity was also small and unimportant until it became the state religion of Rome because Constantine felt he could use it to hold the society together. Everyone was forced to convert with little more choice than was given by the Muslims in the middle east. Much of Christian history consists of your religion being foisted upon others through violence or threats of violence. Surely you are not so ignorant as to believe that Islam is the only religion that used fear to propagate itself. My point, which you seem to have missed is that Islam started from humble beginnings just as Christianity did, so your argument was faulty.

 

Confucius started a very popular religion, but certainly not a world-wide religion. Same goes for Buddha. And remember - they did not claim to be God Incarnate. the Anointed One whose death paid the debt of sin, whose resurrection from the dead proved His Deity. The messages of Confucius and Buddha were on par with Solomon, proverbs to guide proper living.

 

What does this have to do with anything. I could claim I was the great purple polka-dotted guru in the sky and it wouldn't make it true even if a billion people came to believe it. A book that says someone was resurrected is not the same as proof. Do you understand that?

 

Besides are you claiming that Christianity IS world wide? I live in a country full of people who are proof that this is not true. There are plenty of places full of people who don't give a flip about your god. If you don't like it, tough cookies.

 

Just as L.Ron's Scientology, etc have certainly been challenged & refuted,

 

Right, yet people still believe it...which was my point if you had bothered to pay attention. Refuting something, even effectively doesn't make everyone stop believing it.

 

many First Century Jews and other people rejected and persecuted Christianity. And within 50 years Christianity had spread throughout Asia Minor (modern-day Turkey), Israel, Syria, Armenia, Aram (modern-day Iraq), Greece, and even into North Africa.

 

PROOF PLEASE, I happen to have majored in biblical studies in college so I know that modern biblical scholars hotly debate both of these claims. It is far from proven that they are so. Christianity rewrote history when it became dominate and tended to overblow its own early history.

 

For one thing early Christianity was not a uniform group there were many major groups besides the proto-orthodox church. The Essenes, the Gnostics, the Marcionites, are these names even familiar to you? When the proto-orthodox church took control of Rome in the 4th century it tried to erase all traces of these groups which held wildly different theologies.

 

As Christianity continued to spread, ten separate state-sponsored persecutions were conducted in the eastern part of the Roman Empire. Yet Christianity continued to grow and spread. Almost always considered by kings and governments as subversive to their control of the masses, Christianity was ruthlessly oppressed and persecuted. And yet, the Gospel cannot be stopped.

 

Again, PROOF, bald assertions of things that are not agreed upon by serious scholars just makes you look ignorant...or duplicitous.

 

Can you provide any documentation to back up the claim that there was wide spread persecution of Christians in the first century? If you can then why are you on this forum and not addressing a group of historians and scholars. They would surely want to know of this proof you have.

 

 

How do you explain this? The Power of the Myth? Are you serious?

 

My explanation? That would be that you are an ignoramus who has a poor grasp of history, both in and outside of Christianity, and that you have a very poor understanding of human psychology. People can and DO often believe false things for great periods of time, even dying for them. All it takes is a little cognitive dissonance, mix that with the fact that even a broken clock is right twice a day (sometimes wrong thinking can still lead to correct conclusions)

 

 

Well refuted, Kuroikaze! You have a good sense of history...

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Guest kcdad
OK lets look at some bible contradictions and atrocities, then try and convince us the bible is even close to accurate:

 

 

How many sons did abraham have?

 

these claim just one

Hebrews 11:17 By faith Abraham when he was tried, offered up Isaac, ... his only begotten son. Genesis 22:2 Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, ... and offer him there for a burnt offering. These claim more then one

 

These claim several

Genesis 16:15

And Hagar bare Abraham a son: and Abram called his son's name, which Hagar bare, Ishmael. Genesis 21:2-3 For Sarah conceived, and bare Abraham a son is his old age .... And Abraham called him Isaac. Genesis 25:1-2 Then again Abraham took a wife, and her name was Keturah. And she bare him Zimran, and Jokshan, and Medan, and Midian, and Ishbak, and Shuah. Galatians 4:22 Abraham had two sons; the one by a bond-woman, and the other by a free woman.

 

You've got to lose this one... it is rather easy to explain. Isaac was Sarah's son... Isaac was Abraham's ONLY son through his wife, Sarah. Ishmael, Abraham's legitimately Firstborn and Heir was the child of Sarah's slave, Hagar. Technically, the child, Ishmael belongs to Sarah because Hagar belonged to her... but that is the real problem with the story. The sons of Ishmael are the real heirs of Abraham's promise. NOT the Israelites. But when you read Jewish History, you get their point of view and when you read Arab History, you get their point of view.

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Thats a pretty good site florduh. Thansk for posting the link.

 

The "Apologetics" responses are very lame and are the not representative of true scholarship. I have seen and heard better excuses than these.

 

I have also heard better than these, but I've also heard these very responses. I said the link was a good place to start.

 

In the real world most people, both Christians and their adversaries, don't live in a classroom. Most are not interested in formal debate or academic excellence. Some never even attended college!

 

I just thought a little bit of organized and easily accessed information might be useful to Joe Heathen in a casual conversation with a regular Christian.

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As Christianity continued to spread, ten separate state-sponsored persecutions were conducted in the eastern part of the Roman Empire. Yet Christianity continued to grow and spread. Almost always considered by kings and governments as subversive to their control of the masses, Christianity was ruthlessly oppressed and persecuted. And yet, the Gospel cannot be stopped.

 

How do you explain this? The Power of the Myth? Are you serious?

Again, since when does popularity = truth? Almost everyone on Earth once thought that the Earth was flat and that the sun revolved around it because the bible said so and Christians would even torture those people who said it wasn't, but that doesn't mean that the Earth is flat now, does it? And if Christianity's popularity is proof that it's true, then why is it that the Southern Baptists are losing members? http://tennessean.com/article/20090119/NEWS06/901170354 The Southern Baptists proclaim to be "true" bible-believing Christians yet even their church is dropping in numbers. And if the gospel cannot be stopped as you say, then explain why is it that two-thirds of Americans today believe that religion's influence in American life is waning and the number of people losing faith in religion's ability to solve society's problem is slowly increasing? Perhaps the gospel isn't as irrefutable as you think? http://www.gallup.com/poll/113533/American...sing-Clout.aspx Besides, I thought Jesus said that the path was going to be narrow, not wide, so wouldn't that mean the least popular people would be saved? I guess that means Jesus is going to save us atheists then and all you popular Christians will go to hell?

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I read part of this debate, its nauseating.

 

Neon asked a simple question and its being dodged quite brilliantly in a display of non-brilliance.

 

I call it tap dancing.

 

Its where you just make a display and a spectacle in order to avoid anything of substance, the Christian I saw at the beginning of the thread, I dont even remember his/her name nor do I have the energy or the want to go back and look at it for manners' sake, is a sophist and does not care about understanding, or loving his/her neighbor or having a wise discussion...no

 

the fucking bible is perfect and pure and God is perfect and Jesus is perfect....

 

Why would you honestly believe this?? There is no proof to back this up, just highly developed apologetics, created by the worlds best sophists down the ages, but they have done this with every religion, every religion has apologists and damned good ones at that, they spend their lives trying to make arguments for this doctrine and that, for this belief and that, for this denomination and that. The bible itself simply DOES NOT STAND ON ITS OWN

 

Heres the big questions:

 

What will the bible do for me??

 

What will Jesus do for me??

 

What will becoming a Christian do for me??

 

Its not selfish its the truth, the book is chock full of promises that never come true, chock full of theories on how to be happy, how to be healthy, how to find joy and it does not work, it simply is a failed attempt.

 

Argue about the bible errancy until the cows come home, what is big foot...I mean god going to do for me????

 

What is the bible going to do for me???

 

What is Jesus going to fucking do for anybody???

 

We were all there, we wanted to save the world, we wanted peace on earth, we wanted to please the master...but nothing ever happened or only negatives happened. Youre preaching to the EX CHOIR.

 

My god this should have been a rant....well we all saw how smashing the last one went but shit, im as mad as hell and im not going to take this anymore...I think thats the cry of most ex-christians here

 

If I pissed anyone off that isnt Xtian then for the love of satan PM me.

 

The

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The thought that a bunch of fisherman from Galilee could pass off documents claiming Deity & Messiah status for a carpenter from Nazareth - which then went on to become a world religion - is simply not tenable.

 

Why on earth do you say this? Cults spring up all the freakin time by a whole lot more crazy men than fishermen from Galilee and followers join in like they always have.

 

but there are no proofs that any statement in the Bible is false.

 

Amongst the plethora of stupid and idioctic crap that is said on these boards by christians, i nominate this as the cake taker.

 

And also, the Old Testament has been used by archeologists successfully for many years.

 

Guess what chief, so has the Koran. Now what about it? That proves nothing.

 

And different theories that Old Testament people (2,000 BC) couldn't write or travel well has also been disproven from other historical writings.

 

Did you know that the domestic camels that Genesis talks about is scientificaly proven to a falshood of the Bible? Camels in that part of the world were not yet domesticated at that time. Also, the slaughter of the innocents by Herrod never happened, for there is jack crap in the archeological record to support it. So, if you can prove one thing false about the Bible, then there goes the whole shabang, right? Well, there's ya two.

 

Rayskidude, how bout this. Instead of going around saying the Bible is the pure, infalible word of god, prove this. Kind words put out for it is all fine and dandy but can't hold up to any scrutiny. Instead of believing what the preacher tells you, how bout doing some research yourself. Just read around on this site or any of the hundreds across the net.

 

You're correct - cults do spring up all the time. But do these cults then become world religions, with billions of followers throughout history, forming the basis for societieal mores and governmental laws? Christianity is unique in how it has survived repeated persecutions and attacks, yet still reaches out all over the planet to bring personal deliverance/salvation - and elevates society wherever its teachings are accepted and followed.

 

Please supply one objective proof against any Biblical statement being demonstrably false.

 

Archeology is not a 'hard science' - it is an inexact science in which the actual data is susceptible to subjective conclusions. Therefore - as I stated - Christians use archeology only to confirm or show the high plausablity of Biblical writings - not as proof of Biblical accuracy.

 

Re: domesticated camels - I googled that issue and found that in the past 30 years, archeologists have found data in several places demonstrating that camels were domesticated and used for travel as early as 2500BC in the near Middle East. SO although not widespread - the use of domestic camels was practiced. I suggest that you also should do more research on this matter.

 

I have been a student of the Bible, philosophy, history - and I have an MS in Biochemistry. Though there are some Biblical difficulties and some inconsistencies that require more research, I have not come across anything to disprove Biblical inerrancy. SO if you have something solid, something objective - please offer that info. Thnx for your reply.

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You're correct - cults do spring up all the time. But do these cults then become world religions, with billions of followers throughout history, forming the basis for societieal mores and governmental laws?

Eeh... yeah... it sounds like you've been living in a cave for the last 2,000 years. Islam is one example. And if we go for older ones, what about Hinduism, Buddhism, ...?

 

Christianity is unique in how it has survived repeated persecutions and attacks, yet still reaches out all over the planet to bring personal deliverance/salvation - and elevates society wherever its teachings are accepted and followed.

Actually, I've heard about atheists who were persecuted and killed too... and we're still around. It proves we're right... or is your argument invalid?

 

Please supply one objective proof against any Biblical statement being demonstrably false.

Rabbits don't chew their cud. (But that's of course is a translation error... so we can say: your translation is full of errors.)

 

YHWH told Moses that in the burning bush that Abraham didn't know him by the name of YHWH, but yet you can read earlier in Genesis how Abraham knew God's name as YHWH and even named a place after him.

 

Paul said that one of the Cretan prophets told the truth when he said that all Cretans always lie. Either way you interpret the statement, Paul was wrong, and stated it as a truth.

 

Archeology is not a 'hard science' - it is an inexact science in which the actual data is susceptible to subjective conclusions. Therefore - as I stated - Christians use archeology only to confirm or show the high plausablity of Biblical writings - not as proof of Biblical accuracy.

Okay. So plausibility is conclusiveness? In other words, it's not a fact, but a belief? Which is okay with me. Keep it that way, and don't claim it's a fact anymore.

 

I have been a student of the Bible, philosophy, history - and I have an MS in Biochemistry. Though there are some Biblical difficulties and some inconsistencies that require more research, I have not come across anything to disprove Biblical inerrancy. SO if you have something solid, something objective - please offer that info. Thnx for your reply.

You gotta be kidding me... you got an MS in Biochem and you keep these beliefs? Wow... What happened to the educational system in this country?

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However, Biblical inerrerancy is defended by many Christians - laymen & scholars - based on its own claims and various lines of extra-Biblical data.
Which scholars? And fundamentalist Christians who couldn't defend their way out of a paper bag and actually believe in talking snakes don't count as "scholars."

 

First, the claim to be God's word, God's written revelation to Man >> if the Bible is God's word, then it cannot, by definition, have mistakes. God knows everything perfectly and cannot lie, so how could He have mistakes in His book. Several passages teach that the Bible was authored by God the Holy Spirit - and that God taught men spiritual words, that God guided the men as they wrote the Scriptures, that God commanded men to write down His words, and that all Scripture is "God-breathed", etc. SO - if God cannot guide men to write an inerrant document, that would indicate weakness in God, an inability to produce pure truth through men.
Even if God is perfect and can't have mistakes, the bible was written by humans, so wouldn't it obviously be open to human errors and inaccuracy? Furthermore, universal objective perfection does not exist because perfection is not an objective fact, it's a subjective opinion. You saying the bible is the perfect word of God would be like me saying Hawaii is the most perfect island ever and if you don't believe me, you just don't have enough faith. And why do you have to believe the bible is the inerrant word of God just because it says it was "God-breathed?' If everything in the bible must be taken as literal historical fact, then why don't you follow Luke 14:26 literally and hate yourself?
“If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes, and his own life also, he cannot be My disciple.

 

If God cannot produce an inerrant book, can He save sinners?
Speak English please, not Christianeze.

 

In addition, Jesus believed the Bible was accurate. Jesus believed in Creation, Adam & Eve, the Flood, Moses using the serpent in the wilderness to cure snake bite, etc. SO, since as Christians we believe that Jesus is God Incarnate - and Jesus believed the Old Testament - then who are we to deny the veracity of those events?
Where in the bible does Jesus say he believed these to be true events? Also, where in the bible does Jesus say he was God Incarnate? And if you believe that Jesus is God and don't question anything the bible claims Jesus said, then do you believe God approves of slavery as it says in Luke 12:48? Why don't you take this verse literally if you believe the bible to be the literal word of God?
But he who did not know, yet committed things deserving of stripes, shall be beaten with few. For everyone to whom much is given, from him much will be required; and to whom much has been committed, of him they will ask the more.

 

And also, the Old Testament has been used by archeologists successfully for many years. And different theories that Old Testament people (2,000 BC) couldn't write or travel well has also been disproven from other historical writings.
Like what? You mean like how the bible claims the Earth is flat? Be more specific please.

 

There are a plethora of recognized Biblical scholars that teach at a number of Christian seminaries all over our planet - they are experts in ancient world history, ancient languages such as Akkadian, Koine Greek, Biblical Hebrew, Hieroglyphics, etc. and also archeology and ancient religions - their study has confirmed their Evangelical Biblical faith.

 

The statement about salvation from sin was simlpy meant to communicate the import of Biblical inerrancy for many Christians. If God cannot move upon human authors to produce a book without error in history, geography, etc - then how can I believe God when He reveals that salvation results from faith in Jesus Christ as God Incarnate, dying in my place for my sin, and rising from the dead to show His Deity and as promise that He will raise all His followers? It would be utter nonsense & foolishness to follow a God incapable of inerrancy. As Paul says - without the resurrection of Jesus Christ - Christians are to be pitied more than all other people.

 

Jesus believed in Creation (Mark 13:19); Adam & Eve (Matthew 19:3-6); Abel's murder (Matt 23:35); Flood (Matt 24:38,39); Moses & the serpent (John 3:14); destruction of Sodom & Gomorrah (Luke 17:28,29); Jonah and the great fish (Matt 12:40).

 

The Bible does not claim the world is flat - the Bible states the world is spherical and "hangs on nothing" in Job 26:7-10.

 

The verse you quoted does not teach slavery; but certainly from a historical perspective, slavery has not been a shining point for Christianity. However, it was Christians in England (Wilberforce) and in America (John Brown) who were abolitionists and led the fight to outlaw slavery.

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As Christianity continued to spread, ten separate state-sponsored persecutions were conducted in the eastern part of the Roman Empire. Yet Christianity continued to grow and spread. Almost always considered by kings and governments as subversive to their control of the masses, Christianity was ruthlessly oppressed and persecuted. And yet, the Gospel cannot be stopped.

 

How do you explain this? The Power of the Myth? Are you serious?

 

Pick up a real history book. Part of what helped christianity gain supremacy was FEAR of new diseases wiping everyone out in large job lots. The Plague of Justinian was what helped shake the foundations of Rome. And later, the Black Death.

 

Christianity started losing it's hold when the year 1000 came and went without the world coming to an end. The process has been slow, thanks to stubborn denial, restriction of knowledge, and outright persecution of nonbelievers, but that process has continued.

 

And whether you like it or not rayski...the arrival of the internet and free access to valid information and verifiable knowledge? It's speeding up the end for your religion. You actually believe 2000 years of belief = truth? Then PICK UP a damn history book, because worship of the Egyptian gods went on for LONGER than your particular delusion has. It still ended. So will yours.

 

You've piqued my curiosity - how does fear of new diseases help Christianity in particular over other available religions?

 

You cannot be serious about Christianity being in decline since 1000AD. Evangelical Christianity blossomed during the Reformation, spread to North America with the Puitans and others, spread to the eastern world thru missions started by Willaim Carey (India) and Hudson Taylor (China) in the 1700's; was taken to sub-Shahran Africa by Dr. Livingstone, to the New Hebrides (Vanuatu) by John Paton etc etc etc. Evangelical Christian faith is now growing in South America and in Central Asia and the Middle East. 1750 -1900 is known as the Golden Age of World-Wide Christian missions.

 

And Voltaire stated that he would destroy Christianity in his lifetime - and then a Bible Society operated out of his house after his death. Enver Hosha, brutal dictator of Albania for decades, promised to wipe out religion - and now an Evangelical church operates out of his palace in Tirana. Not to mention the growth of Evangelical Christianity now occuring in several former Soviet republics. I advise you to keep up with current events, and broaden your reading list re: world history.

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I have been a student of the Bible, philosophy, history - and I have an MS in Biochemistry. Though there are some Biblical difficulties and some inconsistencies that require more research, I have not come across anything to disprove Biblical inerrancy.

 

 

A pitiful example of willful denial of fact.

 

When it was heresy to claim that God's special creation, Earth, was not the center of the universe, people like Ray were fighting scientific discovery every step of the way because science was starting to show the Bible for what it is. Rather than the words of a perfect creator who knows everything about his creation, it is a collection of writings made by an unsophisticated people who were ignorant of how our world works. The book is dead wrong factually about many things, and even disagrees with itself in many places.

 

If a creator/god could inspire every word of a holy text, he could, and would, certainly not allow errors in translation. The mistranslations themselves are evidence that the work is manmade. Absurdities such as the universal flood and ark, the sun standing still, and the NT miracles would be verified by other sources and not need tortured explanations to become believable. The Bible just doesn't hold up to scrutiny in light of history, science and logic.

 

It is a losing battle to make the very real discoveries about our world fit into a preconceived notion of Biblical inerrancy. The flat Earth, geocentric model has given way to the science you accept today. Witches and demon possession are no longer believed to be valid even by Christians (with a few exceptions). Christians today realize they will never move mountains and do miracles like Jesus did in the stories, though the book promises them unequivocally that they will. Hasn't happened once in two thousand years.

 

Mythic themes written for a certain time, place and people, perhaps. Factual? Not at all.

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You cannot be serious about Christianity being in decline since 1000AD. Evangelical Christianity blossomed during the Reformation, spread to North America with the Puitans and others,

Thanks to lots & lots of bloodshed, not reformation.

Christianity didn't win the Indians over, it simply ran them over.

 

spread to the eastern world thru missions started by Willaim Carey (India) and Hudson Taylor (China) in the 1700's;

And what are the primary religions of those areas now? Certainly not Christianity.

 

Evangelical Christian faith is now growing in South America and in Central Asia and the Middle East.

And is on the decline in all industrial nations. The only place it can thrive is where lack of knowledge exists & an abundance of fear can be employed.

 

1750 -1900 is known as the Golden Age of World-Wide Christian missions.

It was also a great period of Christian subjugation of a myriad of races & creeds.

So don't make it sound like Christianity won over the world thanks to spreading the word of peace & by merely 'preaching the word.'

It's kept it's standing thanks to force & fear.

And as more people get wise to that, the weaker Christianity gets.

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'rayskidude' date='Jan 20 2009, 07:11 PM' post='425396']

 

 

In addition, Jesus believed the Bible was accurate. Jesus believed in Creation, Adam & Eve, the Flood, Moses using the serpent in the wilderness to cure snake bite, etc. SO, since as Christians we believe that Jesus is God Incarnate - and Jesus believed the Old Testament - then who are we to deny the veracity of those events? Even if they seem strange to us? And also, the Old Testament has been used by archeologists successfully for many years. And different theories that Old Testament people (2,000 BC) couldn't write or travel well has also been disproven from other historical writings.

 

You have no idea what Jesus believed... that he referred to a parable from The Old Testament is not even the slightest evidence of belief it was a historical event.

 

Regarding the Life of Jesus; four Gospels were composed from eye-witness accounts.

 

That statement is so deceptive it might as well be an outright lie. Luke didn't know ANYONE who walked with Jesus. He knew Paul. I doubt Luke was ever in Palestine, let alone Jerusalem or Galilee.

 

The Gosples were written by Apostles or close associates of Apostles.

 

Again, so deceptive it is the same as a lie. NOT ONE APOSTLE wrote a Gospel. No serious scholar thinks John wrote John, or Matthew wrote Matthew. Luke wa snot a an Apostle and Mark is never identified in the Gospel as an Apostle, an eyewitness or any one.

 

 

 

In summary - inerrancy hangs on the Bible defined as God's word - God cannot be mistaken; and historical/archeological evidence confirms Biblical accuracy.

 

 

ABSOLUTELY CORRECT. (except for the archeology thing... certainly some things have been confirmed like the existence of Jericho. That archeological find does not prove everything in the Bible is accurate. Where is The Ark? Where is the Garden of Eden? Where is the tomb of Jesus? Where are Sodom and Gomorrah? Where are the stones Joshua placed as a perpetual memorial to Yahweh in the Jordan river? Where is Solomon's temple? Where is the evidence of the Earth coming to a dead stop for more than a day and then restarting on its 1000 mile per hour revolution?) BTW did you know that in the movie Independence Day there is a scene with the White House and The Capital Records building in LA being destroyed by the aliens? Just because a story refers to something that exists, does not make that story true or factual.

So, the truth is that it hangs on defining The Bible as God's word. Since nothing written COULD POSSIBLY be God's word... the prophets and Jesus always SPOKE God's word, and since they all said different things, it is safe to presume they were paraphrasing and putting the "word of God" into their own words, their own language, their own imagery... (GOD HAS NO LANGUAGE. Language is a human invention.)

 

God can not be mistaken... That is not what you mean, of course... we take God wrong all the time. God is nearly always mistaken. You mean that God can not make a mistake. I'll take that as axiomatic. Therefore, we MUST be both mistaken and mistaking, anytime we say anything about God.

 

That you refer to OT events as parables is simply your opinion - nothing more, and with no evidence to justify your claim. May I suggest the book "A Scientific Analysis of the OT" by Dr. Robert Dick Wilson - recognized scholar in several ancient languages, and OT professor for 40 years.

 

As you stated, Luke was indeed a close associate of Paul - certainly a recognzed Apostle. Paul was living duirng the time of Christ and was a disciple of the Pharisee Gamaliel. He was certainly aware of the ministry of Jesus Christ. And as Luke states, his writings were the result careful investigation of everything - including talking with "eye-witnesses and servants of the word"; and Luke wrote the most chronological of all the Gospels.

 

Conservative Biblical scholars are convinced that the Gospels of Matthew and John were written by those men and there is no hard evidence to mitigate against that. And Mark, also called John Mark, was a close associate of Peter (I Peter 5:13); and he accompanied Paul and Barnabas on their first missionary journey. Though he deserted them, he was later restored to Paul as seen in Colossians 4:10 Philemon 24, and I Tim 4:11. And many believe that Mark referred to himself in Mark 14:51,52. So all the Gospel authors were men who had the authority to write those accounts.

 

The locations of the places you asked about; Ark - on Mt Ararat in Turkey (formerly Armenia) called the Ararat Anomaly, as observed by satellites. Tomb of Jesus >> 2 places in modern Jerusalem are specified - I have visited the one operated by the British. Sodom & Gomorrah - probably SE of the Dead Sea. Eden - somewhere in the Iraq area, as Tigris and Euphrates rivers are mentioned. Solomon's Temple >> destroyed by Nebuchadnezzar, re-built eventually as Herod's Temple on Temple Mount in Jerusalem. But what is the point - many if not almost all Biblical cities, regions, events, etc have been clearly identified. The question about certain locations doesn't invalidate their existence in the ancient past.

 

And all believers understand that God has condescended to us and revealed Himself to us in our human languages. And we also understand that God used the human authors - their education, upbringing, background, vocabulary, experiences, etc when He moved upon them to record His Word. However, that does not negate, "Thus says the LORD..." God is able to communicate with people whom He created in His own image & likeness.

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The locations of the places you asked about; Ark - on Mt Ararat in Turkey (formerly Armenia) called the Ararat Anomaly, as observed by satellites. Tomb of Jesus >> 2 places in modern Jerusalem are specified - I have visited the one operated by the British. Sodom & Gomorrah - probably SE of the Dead Sea. Eden - somewhere in the Iraq area, as Tigris and Euphrates rivers are mentioned. Solomon's Temple >> destroyed by Nebuchadnezzar, re-built eventually as Herod's Temple on Temple Mount in Jerusalem. But what is the point - many if not almost all Biblical cities, regions, events, etc have been clearly identified.

I love this kind of stuff... but...

 

1) The ark, it's a rock formation, not a wooden boat artifact

 

2) So they know exactly which one of the two tombs was the tomb of Jesus? Marvelous! Then why do they have two? Isn't enough to have one? Jesus died twice??? AAAaaah!!! He did, didn't he? You're keeping some secret from us! You little rascal, you! I bet: Jesus died, was resurrected, and died again, but this time he stayed in the other tomb. Right? What a clever party-trick.

 

3) Sodom & Gomorrah - "probably", yeah, that's very definite and exact.

 

4) Eden... "somewhere"... yup, that's scientific evidence in its pride

 

The question about certain locations doesn't invalidate their existence in the ancient past.

True. Finally something I can agree on. But the opposite is also true. A location mentioned in a story, does not make that location real.

 

And all believers understand that God has condescended to us and revealed Himself to us in our human languages. And we also understand that God used the human authors - their education, upbringing, background, vocabulary, experiences, etc when He moved upon them to record His Word. However, that does not negate, "Thus says the LORD..." God is able to communicate with people whom He created in His own image & likeness.

"Condescended"??? You mean "descended" right? Or wait... not, God is condescending towards us... yeah, I get that... he's a prick. Wow. I never thought a Christian actually would admit to that! How many years did you study for your Biochem again?

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I have been a student of the Bible, philosophy, history - and I have an MS in Biochemistry. Though there are some Biblical difficulties and some inconsistencies that require more research, I have not come across anything to disprove Biblical inerrancy.

 

 

A pitiful example of willful denial of fact.

 

When it was heresy to claim that God's special creation, Earth, was not the center of the universe, people like Ray were fighting scientific discovery every step of the way because science was starting to show the Bible for what it is. Rather than the words of a perfect creator who knows everything about his creation, it is a collection of writings made by an unsophisticated people who were ignorant of how our world works. The book is dead wrong factually about many things, and even disagrees with itself in many places.

 

If a creator/god could inspire every word of a holy text, he could, and would, certainly not allow errors in translation. The mistranslations themselves are evidence that the work is manmade. Absurdities such as the universal flood and ark, the sun standing still, and the NT miracles would be verified by other sources and not need tortured explanations to become believable. The Bible just doesn't hold up to scrutiny in light of history, science and logic.

 

It is a losing battle to make the very real discoveries about our world fit into a preconceived notion of Biblical inerrancy. The flat Earth, geocentric model has given way to the science you accept today. Witches and demon possession are no longer believed to be valid even by Christians (with a few exceptions). Christians today realize they will never move mountains and do miracles like Jesus did in the stories, though the book promises them unequivocally that they will. Hasn't happened once in two thousand years.

 

Mythic themes written for a certain time, place and people, perhaps. Factual? Not at all.

 

Christians have no problems with factual science. Where does the Bible teach a flat Earth? A geo-centric Solar System or universe? People who have dedicated their lives to the Evil One actually exist - and thankfully they are rare. Are you unaware of the "Flood" stories in other cultures? Why do so many cultures have this story? Keeping up with the Joneses? Or passing along ancient historical info?

 

Christians understand that inerrancy particularly applies to the original writings, & what we now have are excellent translations of texts that were carefully (through not inerrantly) transcribed, BUt a recent comparison between the Book of Isaiah in the Dead Sea Scrolls (dated 100BC) and the Masoretic OT text kept in St Petersburg (dated 900AD), Russia demonstrated less than a 1% variation over 1000 yrs of transcription. Do you honestly consider that level of agreement over unremarkable?

 

The Scriptures are to be interpreted naturally - which in most places is literal. But we recognize poetry, allegory, history, hyperbole - all these are in Scripture for a reason and we interpret passages as they are presented. Re: miracles - moving mountains by prayer is obviously hyperbole - when Jesus ascended into heaven, He didn't command His followers to move mountains - He commanded them to preach the Gospel of forgiveness of sins thru faith in Jesus ALL OVER THE WORLD. SO that's what we have endeavored to accomplish.

 

Also re: miracles - many were performed by the Apostles throughout the Book of Acts. But miracles are referred to as "acts of the Apostles" in II Corinthians, meaning that they had the specific calling to perform miracles in order to validate their calling and message. You'll find that most of the Bible history does not have God's people performing miracles, but rather miracles occur spoadically and in bunches - coinciding with new truth revealed by God. But the lack of miracles has never been taken by God's people as evidence of His absence, or as an indication of God not being actively involved on Planet Earth.

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