bobareebop Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 The message of Christianity is not about sin at all Bullshit. Not at all. The message of Christianity - the central underlying message, is not that sin exists, or that mankind is cursed by original sin, or that we keep on sinning. I'm not saying these things are false. They do represent the condition that we find ourselves in. But the Christian message itself is that despite the sin condition, God, who is holy, still really loves us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mister Pappy Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 Not at all. The message of Christianity - the central underlying message, is not that sin exists ... I must reiterate bdp's well stated point ... BULLSHIT ... What you overlook, and what bdp is saying "bullshit" on, is the fact that the "Christian message", as you have termed it, is completely unnecessary unless we, as a species, are first cursed by God through original sin. Without original sin, there is no need for redemption from sin - thus your Christ is not needed. Therefore, the Christian message IS that we are "in need" of redemption, because of sin - without which your entire fairy tale falls apart. I am sure that it is convenient for your kind to find a way to leave out the "sin" part of the message and focus only on the "love", with all it's bells and whistles. The truth is, one does not exist without the other. Pappy 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centauri Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 ...The point is not that we are "born sinners" but that God, through Christ, loves us unconditionally, despite that fact. But the "love" is not unconditional. Unless a person meets the conditions for salvation, they receive not love but wrath. Unconditional means without conditions or requirements. Such is not the case with Christianity. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the stranger Posted January 26, 2011 Share Posted January 26, 2011 Cits Come on, man, do you not see the absurdity of what you just said? You want me to show you a Bible passage that says that some people don't have the ability to believe, as if it would take that for it to be true. Regardless of what the Bible does or does not say, the FACT is that there are plenty of people who can't believe. They do NOT have the ability to believe. Some have never heard the "message," and some have seen the overwhelming evidence to the contrary. THAT is a FACT, and it does not matter what some ancient religious texts written by ignorant, superstitious men say about it. There is a reason mainly the young join the military, and it is the same reason the military cater to the young. When we are young, most of us some how believe we will never see the face of death and that we can live through anything, the lone hero, the man of invincibility. Usually later in life we start to realize that we really can die. It is almost like we do not have the full ability to believe that we can die until it is proven to us otherwise. I am not much into quoting scripture on this site, but bare with me this one time. Romans 2:12-16 (The Message) 12-13If you sin without knowing what you're doing, God takes that into account. But if you sin knowing full well what you're doing, that's a different story entirely. Merely hearing God's law is a waste of your time if you don't do what he commands. Doing, not hearing, is what makes the difference with God. 14-16When outsiders who have never heard of God's law follow it more or less by instinct, they confirm its truth by their obedience. They show that God's law is not something alien, imposed on us from without, but woven into the very fabric of our creation. There is something deep within them that echoes God's yes and no, right and wrong. Their response to God's yes and no will become public knowledge on the day God makes his final decision about every man and woman. The Message from God that I proclaim through Jesus Christ takes into account all these differences. My point is wrong and right, at least to a general extent, is inside of us all. We will be judged by that which we have did with our inside knowledge. For my own self, (and I am not trying to pick on you, but according to His word, all who seek God will find Him, though often not in the way we want to find Him) Christ has revealed Himself to me. So now a decision has to be made, just like my everyday walk with Christ. Jesus will judge on what we know and what is in our hearts, not what we do not know and things in which we have yet to learn. Sometimes when one believes he cannot believe at one time in his life (regarding many things including Christ) he often finds later he can believe and that the evidence had been there all along. God will give you what you need to believe, at the time He sees fit, and at that time, the final decision will be yours. Hell was not made for humans. There fore the last thing God wants is for us to be there. He will not leave us uninformed. Time gets longet all the time it seems.. I really love talking with ya Cits. I wish I had all day. I hopefully will get to more replies a little later tonight. Though one's past plays a huge role in one's direction, the unknown (the future) plays an even bigger role. What do we think we know now that later we will find out how wrong we were. This I believe will be for the both of us, my friend. Talk with ya soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
★ Citsonga ★ Posted January 26, 2011 Share Posted January 26, 2011 Cits Come on, man, do you not see the absurdity of what you just said? You want me to show you a Bible passage that says that some people don't have the ability to believe, as if it would take that for it to be true. Regardless of what the Bible does or does not say, the FACT is that there are plenty of people who can't believe. They do NOT have the ability to believe. Some have never heard the "message," and some have seen the overwhelming evidence to the contrary. THAT is a FACT, and it does not matter what some ancient religious texts written by ignorant, superstitious men say about it. There is a reason mainly the young join the military, and it is the same reason the military cater to the young. When we are young, most of us some how believe we will never see the face of death and that we can live through anything, the lone hero, the man of invincibility. Usually later in life we start to realize that we really can die. It is almost like we do not have the full ability to believe that we can die until it is proven to us otherwise. That has no bearing on the issue of some people never hearing your message and some people seeing all the evidence against your message. I am not much into quoting scripture on this site, but bare with me this one time. Uh, you've actually done quite a bit of it. My point is wrong and right, at least to a general extent, is inside of us all. So, you admit that we don't need your religion to have a conscience and an understanding of right and wrong? We will be judged by that which we have did with our inside knowledge.... Jesus will judge on what we know and what is in our hearts, not what we do not know and things in which we have yet to learn. So, you're saying that we don't have to believe in Jesus to be saved? God will give you what you need to believe, at the time He sees fit, and at that time, the final decision will be yours. I already had what I needed to believe. I did believe for years and years. Over time, though, I simply learned too much to continue believing something unsupported and undermined by evidence. Hell was not made for humans. Hell wasn't made at all. It's make-believe, Stranger. Though one's past plays a huge role in one's direction, the unknown (the future) plays an even bigger role. What do we think we know now that later we will find out how wrong we were. This I believe will be for the both of us, my friend. I've already found out how wrong I was. Been there, done that. Now it's your turn. (Note: Of course, I'm not suggesting that my understanding won't continue to change some. However, I've learned too much to ever go back to believing in an inerrant Bible. That doctrine is an absolute lie. Period.) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mister Pappy Posted January 26, 2011 Share Posted January 26, 2011 Stranger, At this point, you are preaching from a Bible whose accuracy you have chosen not to even defend. The first and only question that I have put before you still has no response. How can Jesus be descended from David through both Solomon and Nathan? Do you simply have no answer? You once said that if there be even one discrepancy in the Bible, you were in "trouble". I think you are in "trouble". What you do with that so-called trouble is up to you. I hope you choose to turn it into a positive growth experience. Pappy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest I Love Dog Posted January 26, 2011 Share Posted January 26, 2011 But the Christian message itself is that despite the sin condition, God, who is holy, still really loves us. But only on his terms. That is not love, that is a control freak. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobareebop Posted January 26, 2011 Share Posted January 26, 2011 Not at all. The message of Christianity - the central underlying message, is not that sin exists ... I must reiterate bdp's well stated point ... BULLSHIT ... What you overlook, and what bdp is saying "bullshit" on, is the fact that the "Christian message", as you have termed it, is completely unnecessary unless we, as a species, are first cursed by God through original sin. Without original sin, there is no need for redemption from sin - thus your Christ is not needed. Therefore, the Christian message IS that we are "in need" of redemption, because of sin - without which your entire fairy tale falls apart. I am sure that it is convenient for your kind to find a way to leave out the "sin" part of the message and focus only on the "love", with all it's bells and whistles. The truth is, one does not exist without the other. Pappy Hi Pappy, Well, that's completely true. Without sin, and specifically original sin, then there would be no need for redemption. Sin and redemption go hand in hand. I was not implying that sin is not an issue, or not real, or anything like that. I do not want to "leave out" sin. I am pointing out that the heart of the Christian message is not that mankind is sinful. The heart of the Christian message is that God is Love. I insist that this is true. Christian theology (specifically hamartiology) teaches us a lot about sin, but the reasons that sin was allowed to originate, and why God chose to do things as He did is still a mystery. This is where faith comes in. I will point out that if God is holy, then just one sin will separate us from Him. So even without original sin, we are destined for an eternity separated from God. So we still need redemption. If we understood everything about God he would not be God. But I will state my opinion that the redemption story is not a story that someone would make up. Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bdp Posted January 26, 2011 Share Posted January 26, 2011 The message of Christianity is not about sin at all Bullshit. Not at all. The message of Christianity - the central underlying message, is not that sin exists, or that mankind is cursed by original sin, or that we keep on sinning. I'm not saying these things are false. They do represent the condition that we find ourselves in. But the Christian message itself is that despite the sin condition, God, who is holy, still really loves us. Pappy answered for me, even better than I could have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bdp Posted January 26, 2011 Share Posted January 26, 2011 the heart of the Christian message is not that mankind is sinful. The heart of the Christian message is that God is Love. I insist that this is true. yeah, well, dream on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bdp Posted January 26, 2011 Share Posted January 26, 2011 I will state my opinion that the redemption story is not a story that someone would make up. Of course it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mister Pappy Posted January 26, 2011 Share Posted January 26, 2011 ... the heart of the Christian message is not that mankind is sinful. The heart of the Christian message is that God is Love. I insist that this is true. You may insist all you like, but your insistence doesn't change the fact that your claim regarding "the heart of the Christian message" is incorrect. The heart of the message is that human-kind is lost, has been cursed with sin by some God, is bound for hell fire, and oh, by the way, Jesus loves you anyway - IF YOU BELIEVE. If you don't believe, then he's gonna fry you up with the rest of the unbelievers, masturbaters, skirt chasers, and beer drinkers - unconditional love be-damned. That is the heart of the Christian message. If it makes you feel better to speak of it in soft sweet tones of voice while you carry a huge fake smile smeared all over your face, knock yourself out. There is nothing loving about the message you have to share, and the pitiful smile hides nothing. the reasons that sin was allowed to originate, and why God chose to do things as He did is still a mystery. This is where faith comes in. No, this is where stupidity comes in. It is no mystery at all. It is a load of bull you've been fed, and you pass it along, continuing the cycle of systematic brainwashing. I will point out that if God is holy, then just one sin will separate us from Him. He isn't. The God of the Bible is perhaps the most evil, selfish, coniving, decietful, violent, ruthless, wasteful, egomaniacal character in all of fiction. It goes without saying that your Bible God is a great reflection of the contempt, in the heart of man, of which he could not dispose himself in any other way than to create a God by which to sanctify these evil desires, intentions, and deeds. ...we are destined for an eternity separated from God. So we still need redemption. I am separated from your Bible God right now sir .... and thank my lucky stars for it every single day. Please don't "redeem" me again. I don't think I could survive another trip through a holy-ghost-concentration-camp. If we understood everything about God he would not be God. If you understood anything about your God, he would not be God. the redemption story is not a story that someone would make up. Why not? People make up crap every single day. Other people repeat it. Some believe it and tell others. You have no knowledge of what "someone would make up". This is a lie that has been told to you and now you are telling it to me, as if it were some kind of fact to be believed. This is how your religion perpetuates itself - by accepting snippets of boggus bull baloney as balls on truth. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bdp Posted January 26, 2011 Share Posted January 26, 2011 ...we are destined for an eternity separated from God. ...by 'god's' arrangement, not any fault of our own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centauri Posted January 26, 2011 Share Posted January 26, 2011 If we understood everything about God he would not be God. But I will state my opinion that the redemption story is not a story that someone would make up. However, there's a problem. Believers state that they do understand enough about God to declare "facts" about God to the world, deeming themselves to be authorized mouthpieces for the unproved entity. Regarding made up stories, the practice of creating a need and then supplying the remedy is an old marketing ploy. Or in the case of Christianity, create the "disease" and then sell the "cure". It ensures that people will have to come to you (i.e. Christian clerics, churches, etc) in order to fix their problem. Christianity also claims exclusive monopoly rights to the cure and tells people that they need to support the church for the rest of their lives if they want to really be sure that they're cured. It's a brilliant marketing ploy. Promise people great rewards and riches in the next life while picking their pockets in this one. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheUnknown Posted January 26, 2011 Share Posted January 26, 2011 post 1812 post 1813 post 1814 Great posts, I couldn't agree more. It's amazing that what the Christians on this site call "the unconditional love of God", is eerily similar to the traits of someone who suffers from NPD. It's tragic that Malignant Narcissism can lead to people becoming victims of the Stockholm syndrome in order to cope with the horror of it all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mister Pappy Posted January 26, 2011 Share Posted January 26, 2011 what the Christians on this site call "the unconditional love of God", is eerily similar to the traits of someone who suffers from NPD. I haven't thought about that before, but you have a good point for sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest I Love Dog Posted January 27, 2011 Share Posted January 27, 2011 the redemption story is not a story that someone would make up. Why not? People make up crap every single day. Other people repeat it. Some believe it and tell others. You have no knowledge of what "someone would make up". This is a lie that has been told to you and now you are telling it to me, as if it were some kind of fact to be believed. This is how your religion perpetuates itself - by accepting snippets of boggus bull baloney as balls on truth. Exactly, and sadly for Christians it was made up, not only that, it was borrowed from other older religions, along with many other philosophies and rituals adopted by skilled Greek & Roman writers to formulate their brand of Christian religion. The Romans were also skilled at marketing(and suppression and persuasion, torture and killing) and spread their 'official" and "one and only" religion and the "one true god" package well, planting it well and truly into the psyche of billions. Unfortunately it lingers on as "truth". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobareebop Posted January 27, 2011 Share Posted January 27, 2011 ... the heart of the Christian message is not that mankind is sinful. The heart of the Christian message is that God is Love. I insist that this is true. You may insist all you like, but your insistence doesn't change the fact that your claim regarding "the heart of the Christian message" is incorrect. The heart of the message is that human-kind is lost, has been cursed with sin by some God, is bound for hell fire, and oh, by the way, Jesus loves you anyway - IF YOU BELIEVE. If you don't believe, then he's gonna fry you up with the rest of the unbelievers, masturbaters, skirt chasers, and beer drinkers - unconditional love be-damned. That is the heart of the Christian message. If it makes you feel better to speak of it in soft sweet tones of voice while you carry a huge fake smile smeared all over your face, knock yourself out. There is nothing loving about the message you have to share, and the pitiful smile hides nothing. Why do you assume that I am smiling, and that it is fake? I am telling you what I believe to be true, and you are doing likewise. This is good. the reasons that sin was allowed to originate, and why God chose to do things as He did is still a mystery. This is where faith comes in. No, this is where stupidity comes in. It is no mystery at all. It is a load of bull you've been fed, and you pass it along, continuing the cycle of systematic brainwashing. You believe it is a load of bull. I disagree with you, but I certainly respect your opinion. I appreciate the same from you. I will point out that if God is holy, then just one sin will separate us from Him. He isn't. The God of the Bible is perhaps the most evil, selfish, coniving, decietful, violent, ruthless, wasteful, egomaniacal character in all of fiction. It goes without saying that your Bible God is a great reflection of the contempt, in the heart of man, of which he could not dispose himself in any other way than to create a God by which to sanctify these evil desires, intentions, and deeds. I believe you have God all wrong. If I had been through what you have been through, I would have God wrong too. I am sorry for this. ...we are destined for an eternity separated from God. So we still need redemption. I am separated from your Bible God right now sir .... and thank my lucky stars for it every single day. Please don't "redeem" me again. I don't think I could survive another trip through a holy-ghost-concentration-camp. I can't redeem you, so I won't! The holy ghost-concentration camp was a nightmare, and I have no intention of putting you through it again. If we understood everything about God he would not be God. If you understood anything about your God, he would not be God. I am learning about my God, and about what non-believers believe. That's why I am on this forum. the redemption story is not a story that someone would make up. Why not? People make up crap every single day. Other people repeat it. Some believe it and tell others. You have no knowledge of what "someone would make up". This is a lie that has been told to you and now you are telling it to me, as if it were some kind of fact to be believed. This is how your religion perpetuates itself - by accepting snippets of boggus bull baloney as balls on truth. I believe that if someone wanted to make up a story about an all-powerful, moral God, a sinful creation, and a plan for redemption that they would have made up a very different story. My opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bdp Posted January 27, 2011 Share Posted January 27, 2011 I believe that if someone wanted to make up a story about an all-powerful, moral God, a sinful creation, and a plan for redemption that they would have made up a very different story. My opinion. 'moral' god? Anyway, they clearly didn't make up a very different story, did they? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobareebop Posted January 27, 2011 Share Posted January 27, 2011 I believe that if someone wanted to make up a story about an all-powerful, moral God, a sinful creation, and a plan for redemption that they would have made up a very different story. My opinion. 'moral' god? Anyway, they clearly didn't make up a very different story, did they? In my opinion, a story that makes more sense from a human perspective would be (assuming the things I stated above), that mankind must earn their salvation. That is not what Christianity teaches. A "moral God" is a God who is primarily concerned with right and wrong, and how his human creation conducts itself. Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mister Pappy Posted January 27, 2011 Share Posted January 27, 2011 I believe that if someone wanted to make up a story about an all-powerful, moral God, a sinful creation, and a plan for redemption that they would have made up a very different story. My opinion. Why? The rest of the story makes even less sense: Talking snakes Fathers making offerings of sons - okay with God Fathers offering daughters as sacrifice - okay with God Extermination of entire races of people - okay with God Slavery - okay with God Rape - okay with God Flat earth with sun moving in the sky Millions of animals being stuck on a small boat together with all their food for several months People living for almost 1,000 years Talking donkeys Humans living inside animals for days at a time Humans never dying at all and getting a ride into the sky on a chariot that was on fire Seas dividing and humans walking across immediately on dry ground Water becomes blood Water becomes wine Human bodies come back from the dead after beginning the process of decay Women have babies without having sexual relations with a male This list goes on and on, but you get the point. So you are saying that the redemption story, as you understand it, is just too far out there for someone to have simply ... "made it up"? Do you really wonder why I have a hard time respecting your opinion? Pappy 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mister Pappy Posted January 27, 2011 Share Posted January 27, 2011 In my opinion, a story that makes more sense from a human perspective would be (assuming the things I stated above), that mankind must earn their salvation. That is not what Christianity teaches. That is what is taught all through your Bible up until Paul came along and tried to do away with the "law of God as it was understood'. He had zero authority to change anything. That's why the law still stands with most Jews and some Christians. Paul was very much out of line and in fact, a heretic, as far as your Bible tells it. Centauri is an excellent source for information on this subject and can expound on it at length. A "moral God" is a God who is primarily concerned with right and wrong, and how his human creation conducts itself. Your God is not an example of morality. On the contrary, he is evil incarnate. How can you stand by a genocidal maniac who makes Hitler look like a Catholic schoolboy with a pacifier stuck in his mouth? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mister Pappy Posted January 27, 2011 Share Posted January 27, 2011 Why do you assume that I am smiling, and that it is fake? I am telling you what I believe to be true, and you are doing likewise. This is good. It's a stereotype Bob, but one that most of us here are all too familiar with. In fact, I will let you in on a secret that will put you many steps ahead of your Christian buddies. I have never met even ONE Christian who was aware at all of the "Christian glow" while they were a Christian. It is difficult to explain, but I will give it a shot. Have you ever took notice of people who don't have a clue? You know the ones, they are oblivious to reality (right now I am talking about life in general stuff). These kinds of people carry little or no stress, because they don't know enough to be concerned about anything - thus they are a happy critter all the time - the whole ignorance is bliss thing. The "Christian glow" works much like that. It can be found primarily among fundies who are completely and totally brainwashed. Of course they would counter that statement by saying, "I'm washed all right - washed in the blood of Jesus Christ!" or something else equally as cute to themselves. These types wear the "smile of ignorance" twenty-four hours a day, seven days a week, because they are too stupid to know that there is any reason to consider a possibility other than the one which insures them they are going to one day "sing with the angels forever and ever", or maybe "dance down streets paved with gold with dear old grandma", or the one I heard from an old preacher when I was a kid, "I'm gonna dig me some worms, kick off my shoes, and go fishin' in the river of life." When you make claims that the Christian message is more about love than anything else, I must assume that you are one of these with permaglow sprayed on your face. It is that silly. If it offends you, try to learn something from it. Don't expect me to apologize. I have been around this game for a very long time, and I have learned one thing - my being your buddy and apologizing for hurting your feelings won't help you in the least. Someone needs to walk up to you, look you in the eye, and say "Hey buddy, you're being an idiot". That someone is me right now. I am your friend, believe it or not, but you are gonna go blind with that hood pulled down over your eyes, and you look kinda silly at the same time. Wouldn't you tell me if I had toilet paper sticking out of my underwear? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mister Pappy Posted January 27, 2011 Share Posted January 27, 2011 You believe it is a load of bull. I disagree with you, but I certainly respect your opinion. I appreciate the same from you. If you respect my opinion, hopefully, as a testament to your own mental stability, that respect has been earned, because you believe my opinion to be based upon sound judgement and reason. Based upon those same qualifiers for respect, I cannot respect your opinion. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mister Pappy Posted January 27, 2011 Share Posted January 27, 2011 Bob, I have noticed something in what you are writing that causes me to want to take a second and point something out to you. You seem to be leaning toward an unusual line of thinking - one where the only option, other than all the stuff in your Bible being correct, is that someone just "made it up" - "manufactured a scam". I know of no one, with a clear mind, who really believes that this is what happened at all. Of course the stuff in the Bible isn't true - most of it anyway - no more true than most of the early theories of scientists and doctors who speculated upon the unknown or how to cure disease - even what caused those diseases. There is no scam there - just information recorded in ignorance. You will find that the further one rewinds history's clock, the more "ignorance" one encounters. I am sure you know this. You must be a reasonably intelligent man. Why is it that when we need to heal a clogged artery in our heart, we go to the most advanced practitioner of medicine we can find - one who is up to date on all recent discoveries and etc..., but when Christian's want to learn more about where they, and the world around them, came from, they turn to writings by the oldest known sources of written information - the most ignorant and unlearned people they can find - those whose lives and writings predated the discovery of anything? There is no scam in the "original writings" collected in your Bible - just the unlearned / uneducated hypothesis of men who lived a very long time ago. The scam came later when the Catholic church manipulated these writings into the world's most evil creation of all time - the Christian religion, and it's ugly cousin, Islam, came close behind. What amazes me today is how powerful the tactic of Christian youth programing is. The same goes for the Muslim world. It seems to me that no matter how obvious the bizzare nature of a belief is, the victim remains totally blind except by luck or trauma of some kind. I wish you nothing but luck. Pappy 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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