Question For Christians About Biblical Inerrancy

[AlphaToOmega]

.

First - there simply is no connection between the blathering of a science fiction writer like L. Ron Hubbard and the ministry of Jesus of Nazareth, the Messiah. And the fact that some people are able to gather a following has always been acknowledged - even in Scripture.

 

You raised the question, are people that gullible to believe.

The answer is YES. Why YES they are.

You are also a perfect example, just like the Scientologists that believe total garbage, so do you.

 

 

Now see, here you just display your ignorance, because several accounts exist re: Jesus Christ and the subsequent growth of Christianity.

 

Really, show me somewhere outside the Bible where anyone wrote about the greatest event in human history.

Thought so. Not one.

Nothing.

How did they miss this most spectacular event?

Simple. It was made up. No other explanation.

 

Note, they don't even write about it at the time. It was written decades after the fact.

 

Here, I can only assume you're referring to the NT writers. I quote from Samuel L. Jackson in Pulp Fiction "Allow me to retort."

 

So what?!! Timing is not the issue - truth is the issue. Are we to disavow history books written today covering ancient cultures & events - and the historical analysis of those phenomena - simply because the books were written centuries after the facts? Would PhD historians agree with you on this? Are men incapable of researching and recording accurate accounts and analysis of history? Really? Have you discussed this theory of yours with noted historians?

 

But by your measure - then Islam is THE religion, as Muhammad's revelations were written down very soon after he received them from allah.

 

There certainly is more evidence that Mohamed was indeed real than there is that Jesus was.

Again, not one person wrote about the MOST IMPORTANT news to the world and mankind while it was happening.

You find this to be no problem.

I find it full of shit. Just like your religion.

 

 

Here's the facts;

 

Here's the facts:

Your religion is Bullshit.

Worthless garbage used to spread propaganda to control the population via punishment and reward and also prevent them from mixing with non believers to prevent them from being exposed to fact that is the lunacy of the CULT of christianity.

You are a member of a cult.

A CULT that tears apart families.

A CULT that caused and still causes huge suffering to people.

A CULT that uses circular reasoning even though its own inconsistencies are present within its supposed holy book.

A CULT whose members commit more crime per capita than non religious people do by a HUGE factor.

You are a member of a CULT. An IMMORAL EVIL CULT.

End of story.

[bornagainathiest]

Back again, Ray?

 

Perhaps you thot you'd given it long enough for us to forget about your mega fuck-up on Abraham's beliefs about the afterlife?

 

Ok then, where's he now, according to the Book of Hebrews?

 

Care to tell us?

 

Still maintaining that he's a transparent Casper-lookalike, up there in heaven?

 

Not according to Hebrews 11.

 

8 By faith Abraham, when called to go to a place he would later receive as his inheritance, obeyed and went, even though he did not know where he was going. 9 By faith he made his home in the promised land like a stranger in a foreign country; he lived in tents, as did Isaac and Jacob, who were heirs with him of the same promise. 10 For he was looking forward to the city with foundations, whose architect and builder is God. 11 And by faith even Sarah, who was past childbearing age, was enabled to bear children because she considered him faithful who had made the promise. 12 And so from this one man, and he as good as dead, came descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as countless as the sand on the seashore.

 

13 All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance, admitting that they were foreigners and strangers on earth. 14 People who say such things show that they are looking for a country of their own. 15 If they had been thinking of the country they had left, they would have had opportunity to return. 16 Instead, they were longing for a better country—a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them.

 

Which city would that be Ray? The New Jerusalem, perhaps?

 

39 These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised, 40 since God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect.

 

It hasn't happened yet Ray! Abraham and Paul are still in the dust of the earth, awaiting Christ's return.

 

Deal with it!

 

BAA.

 

 

p.s.

I've got some nice questions to kick your inerrantist butt with, so please stick around.

[bornagainathiest]

Inerrant me this, Ray.

 

The Apostle Matthew quotes from the Book of Jeremiah, here...

 

Matthew 27

Judas Hangs Himself

1 Early in the morning, all the chief priests and the elders of the people made their plans how to have Jesus executed. 2 So they bound him, led him away and handed him over to Pilate the governor.

3 When Judas, who had betrayed him, saw that Jesus was condemned, he was seized with remorse and returned the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and the elders.

4 “I have sinned,” he said, “for I have betrayed innocent blood.”

“What is that to us?” they replied. “That’s your responsibility.”

5 So Judas threw the money into the temple and left. Then he went away and hanged himself.

6 The chief priests picked up the coins and said, “It is against the law to put this into the treasury, since it is blood money.”

7 So they decided to use the money to buy the potter’s field as a burial place for foreigners.

8 That is why it has been called the Field of Blood to this day.

9 Then what was spoken by Jeremiah the prophet was fulfilled:

 

“They took the thirty pieces of silver, the price set on him by the people of Israel,

10 and they used them to buy the potter’s field, as the Lord commanded me.”

 

Please show us where we can find this exact quote in the Book of Jeremiah.

 

Not a passage that alludes to thirty pieces of silver, but no potter's field.

Not a passage that mentions a potter's field, but no silver pieces.

Not a passage about pottery being smashed up.

Not nothing except those exact words, in that exact order, just as Matthew quotes them.

 

I mean, he's received the Holy Spirit (who will guide you into all truth) twice over. First, straight from the lips of the resurrected Jesus and second, on the day of Pentecost. So if Matthew can't get it right with the help of God, what does that say about the inerrancy of scripture?

 

Trustworthy? Perfect? Historically accurate? Reliable? The word of God? Inerrant?

 

None of the above!

 

Oh and if you want to use anything from Zechariah to try and force scripture to be the inerrant ideal you think it is, please do so - then you'll just be confirming that Matthew got it wrong.

 

Go for it, Big M.A.C.!

 

BAA.

[bornagainathiest]

 

The stupid is strong with this one.

 

Not just the stupid, A2O.

 

The stubborns is strong with this one.

 

Hence, this...

 

"Well, it looks like I ate the BIG M.A.C.

If he shows up again, that doesn't mean he escaped.

All it means is that I DID eat him (and shat him out dead) but he's just too stubborn (and too stoopid) to notice!"

 

...from my profile.

 

BAA.

[Noggy]

The Bible is True ---- > Because the bible says it is true -----> the bible is true ----> etc

[rayskidude]

Lastly, not only did the Bible writers believe in the limited linear earth, but they also believed that the earth was fixed in its place and did not move. Below are a few examples for you:

• 1 Chronicles 16:30: “He has fixed the earth firm, immovable.”
• Psalm 93:1: “Thou hast fixed the earth immovable and firm ...”
• Psalm 96:10: “He has fixed the earth firm, immovable ...”
• Psalm 104:5: “Thou didst fix the earth on its foundation so that it never can be shaken.”
• Isaiah 45:18: “...who made the earth and fashioned it, and himself fixed it fast...”

 

Are you saying that these verses mean that the earth does not revolve around its axis, or rotate around the sun? Because these verses are from poetic literature, and simply mean that the earth is firm as an entity, or as Moffat translates, "steady and settled."

 

However, God will one day shake this planet.

 

Hebrews 12:25–29 (ESV)

25 See that you do not refuse him who is speaking. For if they did not escape when they refused him who warned them on earth, much less will we escape if we reject him who warns from heaven. 26 At that time his voice shook the earth, but now he has promised, “Yet once more I will shake not only the earth but also the heavens.” 27 This phrase, “Yet once more,” indicates the removal of things that are shaken—that is, things that have been made—in order that the things that cannot be shaken may remain. 28 Therefore let us be grateful for receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, and thus let us offer to God acceptable worship, with reverence and awe, 29 for our God is a consuming fire.

 

As a follow up to that, remember Joshua's battle in which he was killing everyone but ran out of daylight to finish the job (perhaps there were still some old women and babies yet alive that God needed to be dead). The story goes that God caused the sun to stand still in the sky so that Joshua could wipe up. I think you can figure this one out on your own. The writers of the Bible were not altogether very advanced in their knowledge of earth science.

 

Do you think that Yahweh is subject to the laws of science? A miracle is a miracle precisely because the laws of science are suspended >> proving that God Himself produced the miracle. Miracles are beyond our abilities, but not God's abilities.

Isaiah 38:7–8 (ESV)

7 “This shall be the sign to you from the LORD, that the LORD will do this thing that he has promised: 8 Behold, I will make the shadow cast by the declining sun on the dial of Ahaz turn back ten steps.” So the sun turned back on the dial the ten steps by which it had declined.

 

Hebrews 2:1–4 (ESV)

Warning Against Neglecting Salvation

2 Therefore we must pay much closer attention to what we have heard, lest we drift away from it. 2 For since the message declared by angels proved to be reliable, and every transgression or disobedience received a just retribution, 3 how shall we escape if we neglect such a great salvation? It was declared at first by the Lord, and it was attested to us by those who heard, 4 while God also bore witness by signs and wonders and various miracles and by gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will.

[bornagainathiest]

Inerrant me this, Ray.

 

The Apostle Matthew quotes from the Book of Jeremiah, here...

 

Matthew 27

Judas Hangs Himself

1 Early in the morning, all the chief priests and the elders of the people made their plans how to have Jesus executed. 2 So they bound him, led him away and handed him over to Pilate the governor.

3 When Judas, who had betrayed him, saw that Jesus was condemned, he was seized with remorse and returned the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and the elders.

4 “I have sinned,” he said, “for I have betrayed innocent blood.”

“What is that to us?” they replied. “That’s your responsibility.”

5 So Judas threw the money into the temple and left. Then he went away and hanged himself.

6 The chief priests picked up the coins and said, “It is against the law to put this into the treasury, since it is blood money.”

7 So they decided to use the money to buy the potter’s field as a burial place for foreigners.

8 That is why it has been called the Field of Blood to this day.

9 Then what was spoken by Jeremiah the prophet was fulfilled:

 

“They took the thirty pieces of silver, the price set on him by the people of Israel,

10 and they used them to buy the potter’s field, as the Lord commanded me.”

 

Please show us where we can find this exact quote in the Book of Jeremiah.

 

Not a passage that alludes to thirty pieces of silver, but no potter's field.

Not a passage that mentions a potter's field, but no silver pieces.

Not a passage about pottery being smashed up.

Not nothing except those exact words, in that exact order, just as Matthew quotes them.

 

I mean, he's received the Holy Spirit (who will guide you into all truth) twice over. First, straight from the lips of the resurrected Jesus and second, on the day of Pentecost. So if Matthew can't get it right with the help of God, what does that say about the inerrancy of scripture?

 

Trustworthy? Perfect? Historically accurate? Reliable? The word of God? Inerrant?

 

None of the above!

 

Oh and if you want to use anything from Zechariah to try and force scripture to be the inerrant ideal you think it is, please do so - then you'll just be confirming that Matthew got it wrong.

 

Go for it, Big M.A.C.!

 

BAA.

 

Still waiting, Ray!

[rayskidude]

 

Oh and if you want to use anything from Zechariah to try and force scripture to be the inerrant ideal you think it is, please do so - then you'll just be confirming that Matthew got it wrong.

 

Go for it, Big M.A.C.!

 

BAA.[/color]

 

BAA - nothing wrong with the quote being sourced from Zechariah. And I am sure that you know why; given your Greek skillz.

[rayskidude]

If keeping the law imputed righteousness, which the Bible clearly says it does, then there is no need for Jesus.

Each person can save themselves by their own actions just as Ezek 18 says.

Being a sinner by nature doesn't disqualify one from being righteous.

The law itself accomodates unintentional sin and provides atonement for it, and it has nothing to do with faith in Jesus.

If you keep the law, any unintentional sins are dealt with by that very law.

There is no outside agent required to die for your sins.

 

Dude, do you know what the word 'imputation' means? I don't think so - sp plz look it up, and then quote verse that says righteousness is imputed by the Law.

Being a sinner by nature doesn't disqualify one from being righteous???? What're you smokin? Plz expound - this is intriguing.

There is no outside agent required to die for your sins>>. Then what's up with all those animal sacrifices at the Tabernacle & Temple?????

 

Have you been our in the sun too long?

 

Cite the verses in the Hebrew scriptures that state salvation can only be found by faith in a three person God. Until then, you’ve got nothing but a load of revisionist theology.

Matt 28:18-20 ; I Peter 1:1-2; Eph 1:3-14; right off the top of my head. But consult a good systematic theology text and go to the Trinity section and look up the role of the Persons of the Trinity in salvation.

 

Forced labor is enslavement, per the decree by God.

Deut 20:10-14(NLT)

As you approach a town to attack it, you must first offer its people terms for peace.

If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor.

But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town.

When the Lord your God hands the town over to you, use your swords to kill every man in the town.

But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the plunder from your enemies that the Lord your God has given you.

God’s Temple was built with slave labor that was established under this law.

 

But please also note Joshua 16:10 & 17:13; but especially >> II Sam 20:24 which implies that some Benjaminites became forced labor, or I Sam 8:10-17 which states that a king with conscript soldiers, daughters, fields, and the people to be his servants. Forced labor gathered wood and water, but they were not slaves. Say, were Jews allowed to enslave other Jews?

[rayskidude]

Your so-called facts come from a man that never met Jesus in the flesh while he was on earth.

Under these conditions - know one may ever write any history about a person they have never met. Have you discussed your insight in this matter with history faculty at any university?

 

Paul's information came from visions and trances because as he boasted, he received his gospel from no man.

 

Dude - I thot you had Bible skillz.

 

Galatians 1:18–2:10 (ESV)

18 Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to visit Cephas and remained with him fifteen days. 19 But I saw none of the other apostles except James the Lord’s brother. 20 (In what I am writing to you, before God, I do not lie!) 21 Then I went into the regions of Syria and Cilicia. 22 And I was still unknown in person to the churches of Judea that are in Christ. 23 They only were hearing it said, “He who used to persecute us is now preaching the faith he once tried to destroy.” 24 And they glorified God because of me.

 

Paul Accepted by the Apostles

2 Then after fourteen years I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, taking Titus along with me. 2 I went up because of a revelation and set before them (though privately before those who seemed influential) the gospel that I proclaim among the Gentiles, in order to make sure I was not running or had not run in vain. 3 But even Titus, who was with me, was not forced to be circumcised, though he was a Greek. 4 Yet because of false brothers secretly brought in—who slipped in to spy out our freedom that we have in Christ Jesus, so that they might bring us into slavery— 5 to them we did not yield in submission even for a moment, so that the truth of the gospel might be preserved for you. 6 And from those who seemed to be influential (what they were makes no difference to me; God shows no partiality)—those, I say, who seemed influential added nothing to me. 7 On the contrary, when they saw that I had been entrusted with the gospel to the uncircumcised, just as Peter had been entrusted with the gospel to the circumcised 8 (for he who worked through Peter for his apostolic ministry to the circumcised worked also through me for mine to the Gentiles), 9 and when James and Cephas and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given to me, they gave the right hand of fellowship to Barnabas and me, that we should go to the Gentiles and they to the circumcised. 10 Only, they asked us to remember the poor, the very thing I was eager to do.

 

As you can see, Paul's Gospel was confirmed by the Apostles.

 

His figure of over 500 believers is not consistent with the size of the church at that time and is not confirmed by any other writer.

 

Hmmm... being that you were had not met anyone from the church at this time, nor anyone else who may have written about the Early Church - why should this statement bear any credence?

 

The door is left wide open for embellishment of whatever "facts" that may have actually existed.

 

Yea, 'cuz you were there and actually met those gullible, stupid, ignorant fishermen; which gives you authority in such matters.

 

Also that Mormon statement you made - you can today got to the Middle East and visit Nazareth, Babylon, Nineveh, etc. Can you go to Mexico and find Zarahemla??? I think not.

[centauri]

If keeping the law imputed righteousness, which the Bible clearly says it does, then there is no need for Jesus.

Each person can save themselves by their own actions just as Ezek 18 says.

Being a sinner by nature doesn't disqualify one from being righteous.

The law itself accomodates unintentional sin and provides atonement for it, and it has nothing to do with faith in Jesus.

If you keep the law, any unintentional sins are dealt with by that very law.

There is no outside agent required to die for your sins.

 

Dude, do you know what the word 'imputation' means? I don't think so - sp plz look it up, and then quote verse that says righteousness is imputed by the Law.

Being a sinner by nature doesn't disqualify one from being righteous???? What're you smokin? Plz expound - this is intriguing.

There is no outside agent required to die for your sins>>. Then what's up with all those animal sacrifices at the Tabernacle & Temple?????

 

Have you been our in the sun too long?

No, you’ve been drunk on Christian propaganda so long that you have difficulty recognizing anything outside of your comfort zone.

Righteousness is credited to the person that keeps the law.

The passages were given from Ezek 18, Psa 103, Psa 119, and others and you ignored them, just as you always do.

Each person can save themselves by their own actions just as Ezek 18 says.

If you had read Ezek 18, it would answer your other question as well.

You don’t have to be sinless to obtain righteousness.

You must repent and keep the law, and such actions will produce a righteous state.

Past sins are forgiven and will not be held against you.

Animal sacrifices are part of atonement but the animals themselves do not keep the law, they’re part of a procedure, not the responsible party.

Does this help clarify things…there is no outside human agent ( i.e. a human being), required to die for your sins.

And if you insist there is, cite the law that says humans can be used in sin sacrifices.

 

 

Cite the verses in the Hebrew scriptures that state salvation can only be found by faith in a three person God. Until then, you’ve got nothing but a load of revisionist theology.

 

Rayskidude:

Matt 28:18-20 ; I Peter 1:1-2; Eph 1:3-14; right off the top of my head. But consult a good systematic theology text and go to the Trinity section and look up the role of the Persons of the Trinity in salvation.

You didn’t cite anything from the source I requested.

All your citations are from the New Testament.

The New Testament is not the Hebrew scriptures aka Old Testament.

The New Testament is the revisionist theology.

 

Forced labor is enslavement, per the decree by God.

Deut 20:10-14(NLT)

As you approach a town to attack it, you must first offer its people terms for peace.

If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor.

But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town.

When the Lord your God hands the town over to you, use your swords to kill every man in the town.

But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the plunder from your enemies that the Lord your God has given you.

God’s Temple was built with slave labor that was established under this law.

 

Rayskidude:

But please also note Joshua 16:10 & 17:13; but especially >> II Sam 20:24 which implies that some Benjaminites became forced labor, or I Sam 8:10-17 which states that a king with conscript soldiers, daughters, fields, and the people to be his servants. Forced labor gathered wood and water, but they were not slaves. Say, were Jews allowed to enslave other Jews?

What does any of this have to do with the issue of God giving commands for slavery in Deut 20?

1 Sam 8:10-17 is a warning to Israel that requesting a king might result in forced labor of their own people.

It does nothing to address the original issue.

Then you attempt to deflect the issue with a side-step about Jews making slaves of Jews.

None of this undoes the instructions of Deut 20.

God endorses slavery.

I already gave you the Temple example and somehow you’d like to claim that forced labor is not slavery.

That door swings both ways.

If Solomon’s work force didn’t use slave labor, then neither did the Egyptians.

There was no slavery of the Hebrews in Egypt, they were only forced labor.

[centauri]

Your so-called facts come from a man that never met Jesus in the flesh while he was on earth.

 

Under these conditions - know one may ever write any history about a person they have never met. Have you discussed your insight in this matter with history faculty at any university?

It's amazing how you want to lower the standard for credibility when it comes to divine "truth".

Have you asked any non-Christain university faculty members if visions and trances by religious zealots should be given credibility and called “facts” and history?

Jesus isn’t just any person, he’s the supernatural, miracle working, sky dwelling god-man.

The conditions aren’t the problem, the claims are.

The claims are so grand and absolute that they should be subjected to increased scrutiny, and nothing less.

Do you have any university faculty member, other than a Christian cult seminary, that claims to have been instructed directly by God?

Do they claim to have met (via visions) with a supernatural sky-man that all other people must believe in to be saved?

 

 

Paul's information came from visions and trances because as he boasted, he received his gospel from no man.

 

Dude - I thot you had Bible skillz.

 

Galatians 1:18–2:10 (ESV)

18 Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to visit Cephas and remained with him fifteen days. 19 But I saw none of the other apostles except James the Lord’s brother. 20 (In what I am writing to you, before God, I do not lie!) 21 Then I went into the regions of Syria and Cilicia. 22 And I was still unknown in person to the churches of Judea that are in Christ. 23 They only were hearing it said, “He who used to persecute us is now preaching the faith he once tried to destroy.” 24 And they glorified God because of me.

 

Paul Accepted by the Apostles

2 Then after fourteen years I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, taking Titus along with me. 2 I went up because of a revelation and set before them (though privately before those who seemed influential) the gospel that I proclaim among the Gentiles, in order to make sure I was not running or had not run in vain. 3 But even Titus, who was with me, was not forced to be circumcised, though he was a Greek. 4 Yet because of false brothers secretly brought in—who slipped in to spy out our freedom that we have in Christ Jesus, so that they might bring us into slavery— 5 to them we did not yield in submission even for a moment, so that the truth of the gospel might be preserved for you. 6 And from those who seemed to be influential (what they were makes no difference to me; God shows no partiality)—those, I say, who seemed influential added nothing to me. 7 On the contrary, when they saw that I had been entrusted with the gospel to the uncircumcised, just as Peter had been entrusted with the gospel to the circumcised 8 (for he who worked through Peter for his apostolic ministry to the circumcised worked also through me for mine to the Gentiles), 9 and when James and Cephas and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given to me, they gave the right hand of fellowship to Barnabas and me, that we should go to the Gentiles and they to the circumcised. 10 Only, they asked us to remember the poor, the very thing I was eager to do.

 

As you can see, Paul's Gospel was confirmed by the Apostles.

You’ve used Paul to confirm Paul, and sidestepped the original issue in the process.

It was Paul that caved in to the demands of the Jerusalem Christians when his no more law Gospel bit the dust in Acts.

The accounts in Acts do not match up all that well with those of Paul’s epistles regarding his visits or his teachings.

The original issue was where Paul received his Gospel from.

Gal 1:11-12

But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.

For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

 

Paul’s Gospel was received by supernatural revelation.

That was the whole point.

Supernatural revelation does not equate to “facts” simply because it appears in print.

 

His figure of over 500 believers is not consistent with the size of the church at that time and is not confirmed by any other writer.

 

Hmmm... being that you were had not met anyone from the church at this time, nor anyone else who may have written about the Early Church - why should this statement bear any credence?

Yes, by all means, let’s give unrestricted credence to a religious zealot that gets his information from visions!

That’s the way of things isn’t it?

If Paul wrote it, it must be true.

If you have confirmation for this specific claim from the Bible, then by all means present it.

The burden of proof for credence is on you.

 

The door is left wide open for embellishment of whatever "facts" that may have actually existed.

 

Yea, 'cuz you were there and actually met those gullible, stupid, ignorant fishermen; which gives you authority in such matters.

So you deny that embellishment happens in religious stories?

Explain why your religious history as given by the New Testament cannot possibly have any embellishments in it.

You have no confirmation, not even from other Christian cult writers, and you want people here to accept your facts because it comes from a sacred cow called Paul.

 

Also that Mormon statement you made - you can today got to the Middle East and visit Nazareth, Babylon, Nineveh, etc. Can you go to Mexico and find Zarahemla??? I think not.

This is a form of straw man argument.

The issue was embellishment and Paul’s specific revelation about Jesus, not whether a town exists.

BTW, Paul never mentions Nazareth or refers to Jesus as Jesus of Nazareth.

[bornagainathiest]

 

Oh and if you want to use anything from Zechariah to try and force scripture to be the inerrant ideal you think it is, please do so - then you'll just be confirming that Matthew got it wrong.

 

Go for it, Big M.A.C.!

 

BAA.[/color]

 

BAA - nothing wrong with the quote being sourced from Zechariah. And I am sure that you know why; given your Greek skillz.

 

What you write might cut some ice Ray, if those words could be found in the Book of Zechariah.

Not similar words or words dealing with similar themes, but those words, which Matthew quotes.

Catch is, they can't be found there because they're not there to be found.

 

Here they are again...

 

“They took the thirty pieces of silver, the price set on him by the people of Israel,

10 and they used them to buy the potter’s field, as the Lord commanded me.”

 

So, I'm still waiting for you to come thru with the goods.

 

BAA.

[rayskidude]

Righteousness is credited to the person that keeps the law.

The passages were given from Ezek 18, Psa 103, Psa 119, and others and you ignored them, just as you always do.

Each person can save themselves by their own actions just as Ezek 18 says.

If you had read Ezek 18, it would answer your other question as well.

 

"Righteousness is credited to the person that keeps the law." Could you please cite chapter and verse? 'Cuz righteousness is not credited to law-keepers >> it is EARNED by law-keepers.

Righteousness is imputed, credited, to those sinners who repent and believe in Christ Jesus, thus relying on the grace & mercy of God expressed in the Person & ministry of Jesus Christ, Son of God and son of man.

 

Who praytell has earned this law-righteousness that you express confidence in? And re: "being righteous" from Ezek 18 >> again I adjure you to take truth within its Biblical context. See from Ezek 16;

 

Ezekiel 16:59–63 (ESV)

The LORD’s Everlasting Covenant

59 “For thus says the Lord GOD: I will deal with you as you have done, you who have despised the oath in breaking the covenant, 60 yet I will remember my covenant with you in the days of your youth, and I will establish for you an everlasting covenant. 61 Then you will remember your ways and be ashamed when you take your sisters, both your elder and your younger, and I give them to you as daughters, but not on account of the covenant with you. 62 I will establish my covenant with you, and you shall know that I am the LORD, 63 that you may remember and be confounded, and never open your mouth again because of your shame, when I atone for you for all that you have done, declares the Lord GOD.”

 

Any thought here of God's people earning a righteous standing through law-keeping?

 

You don’t have to be sinless to obtain righteousness.

 

Wha??? You just said "Righteousness is credited to the person that keeps the law." You mean "kinda keeps the law, or keeps to the best of their ability, or has good intentions?" What??

 

Animal sacrifices are part of atonement but the animals themselves do not keep the law, they’re part of a procedure, not the responsible party.

Does this help clarify things…there is no outside human agent ( i.e. a human being), required to die for your sins.

And if you insist there is, cite the law that says humans can be used in sin sacrifices.

 

From the Messianic prophecies of Gen 3:15 > Deut 18:15 > Psa 22 > Isa 52:6-53:14 > Zech 12:10 > et al. And from the New Covenant that God proclaimed to Jeremiah and Ezekiel. The New Covenant, based on better promises, mediated by a better mediator >> greater than Moses or even angels. Read the Book of Hebrews and come up to speed on this New Covenant. And in Luke Jesus declared that His blood was the blood of the New Covenant.

 

OR, just try to keep God's law to be 'credited' with a righteous state. And make some animal sacrifices. BTW, what animal sacrifices did poor Lazarus make, or the thief on the cross, or that tax-collector Zacchaeus, or that sinful woman in Luke chap 7, or that tax-collector in Luke 18?

 

Yet, in the absence of any animal sacrifices - Jesus stated they were saved, delivered, justified in God's sight! Did Jesus lie to them?

 

Cite the verses in the Hebrew scriptures that state salvation can only be found by faith in a three person God. Until then, you’ve got nothing but a load of revisionist theology.

 

Revised by who? Jesus?

 

And I think I've already stated sufficient OT data re: the Trinity in the OT; but Isa 48:12-16 will suffice for now.

[AlphaToOmega]

Hey Ray, if I started answering everything you ask with Islamic preaching's and quotes, what would your thoughts be about my position on any given issue?

What would you think of me?

[rayskidude]

What you write might cut some ice Ray, if those words could be found in the Book of Zechariah.

Not similar words or words dealing with similar themes, but those words, which Matthew quotes.

Catch is, they can't be found there because they're not there to be found.

 

Here they are again...

 

“They took the thirty pieces of silver, the price set on him by the people of Israel,

10 and they used them to buy the potter’s field, as the Lord commanded me.”

 

So, I'm still waiting for you to come thru with the goods.

 

BAA.[/color]

 

Matthew 27:6–10 (ESV)

6 But the chief priests, taking the pieces of silver, said, “It is not lawful to put them into the treasury, since it is blood money.” 7 So they took counsel and bought with them the potter’s field as a burial place for strangers. 8 Therefore that field has been called the Field of Blood to this day. 9 Then was fulfilled what had been spoken by the prophet Jeremiah, saying, “And they took the thirty pieces of silver, the price of him on whom a price had been set by some of the sons of Israel, 10 and they gave them for the potter’s field, as the Lord directed me.”

 

Zechariah 11:9–13 (ESV)

9 So I said, “I will not be your shepherd. What is to die, let it die. What is to be destroyed, let it be destroyed. And let those who are left devour the flesh of one another.” 10 And I took my staff Favor, and I broke it, annulling the covenant that I had made with all the peoples. 11 So it was annulled on that day, and the sheep traders, who were watching me, knew that it was the word of the LORD. 12 Then I said to them, “If it seems good to you, give me my wages; but if not, keep them.” And they weighed out as my wages thirty pieces of silver. 13 Then the LORD said to me, “Throw it to the potter”—the lordly price at which I was priced by them. So I took the thirty pieces of silver and threw them into the house of the LORD, to the potter.

 

Your actually trying to make the point that there is no Biblical inerrancy based on the fact that Matthew does not make a word-for-word quote from Jeremiah?

 

Really? This is a recognized righteous standard for literature re: fulfilled prophecy? This wooden hermeneutic of yours - does anyone else believe this? Or is this like your 'soul-sleep' issue?

 

This is my prayer for you, and Centauri;

 

Luke 24:44–47 (ESV)

44 Then he said to them, “These are my words that I spoke to you while I was still with you, that everything written about me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled.” 45 Then he opened their minds to understand the Scriptures, 46 and said to them, “Thus it is written, that the Christ should suffer and on the third day rise from the dead, 47 and that repentance and forgiveness of sins should be proclaimed in his name to all nations, beginning from Jerusalem.

[centauri]

Righteousness is credited to the person that keeps the law.

The passages were given from Ezek 18, Psa 103, Psa 119, and others and you ignored them, just as you always do.

Each person can save themselves by their own actions just as Ezek 18 says.

If you had read Ezek 18, it would answer your other question as well.

 

"Righteousness is credited to the person that keeps the law." Could you please cite chapter and verse? 'Cuz righteousness is not credited to law-keepers >> it is EARNED by law-keepers.

Ezek 18:20-27.

Keeping the law is a work and if that work is performed, the person has righteousness.

Ditto for Luke 1:5-6.

 

Righteousness is imputed, credited, to those sinners who repent and believe in Christ Jesus, thus relying on the grace & mercy of God expressed in the Person & ministry of Jesus Christ, Son of God and son of man.

Jesus has nothing to do with Ezek 18, Psa 119, or Luke 1:5-6.

Jesus wasn't a valid messiah, which renders your preaching moot.

You haven't established Jesus as a king messiah.

The stipulations and job requirements were laid down by God long before Christianity came along and decided to change the rules.

Jesus didn't meet the criteria.

 

Who praytell has earned this law-righteousness that you express confidence in? And re: "being righteous" from Ezek 18 >> again I adjure you to take truth within its Biblical context. See from Ezek 16;

 

Ezekiel 16:59–63 (ESV)

The LORD’s Everlasting Covenant

59 “For thus says the Lord GOD: I will deal with you as you have done, you who have despised the oath in breaking the covenant, 60 yet I will remember my covenant with you in the days of your youth, and I will establish for you an everlasting covenant. 61 Then you will remember your ways and be ashamed when you take your sisters, both your elder and your younger, and I give them to you as daughters, but not on account of the covenant with you. 62 I will establish my covenant with you, and you shall know that I am the LORD, 63 that you may remember and be confounded, and never open your mouth again because of your shame, when I atone for you for all that you have done, declares the Lord GOD.”

 

Any thought here of God's people earning a righteous standing through law-keeping?

Are you claiming that the Bible contradicts itself?

 

You don’t have to be sinless to obtain righteousness.

 

Wha??? You just said "Righteousness is credited to the person that keeps the law." You mean "kinda keeps the law, or keeps to the best of their ability, or has good intentions?" What??

What does Ezek 18:20-27 say?

It says that if a wicked person repents and keeps the law, they can save their souls.

[centauri]

Animal sacrifices are part of atonement but the animals themselves do not keep the law, they’re part of a procedure, not the responsible party.

Does this help clarify things…there is no outside human agent ( i.e. a human being), required to die for your sins.

And if you insist there is, cite the law that says humans can be used in sin sacrifices.

 

From the Messianic prophecies of Gen 3:15 > Deut 18:15 > Psa 22 > Isa 52:6-53:14 > Zech 12:10 > et al. And from the New Covenant that God proclaimed to Jeremiah and Ezekiel.

Gen 3:15 says nothing about humans being authorized for use in sin sacrifices per God’s law.

Deut 18:15 says nothing about humans being authorized for use in sin sacrifices per God’s law.

Psa 22 is about David and says nothing about humans being authorized for use in sin sacrifices per God’s law.

Isa 52:6-53:14 is about Israel and says nothing about humans being authorized for use in sin sacrifices per God’s law

Zech 12:10 says nothing about humans being authorized for use in sin sacrifices per God’s law.

 

You didn't provide anything from the law that authorizes humans to be used as sin sacrifices.

Cite the passage from Jeremiah that says the new covenant would be centered around a human sin sacrifice.

 

The New Covenant, based on better promises, mediated by a better mediator >> greater than Moses or even angels. Read the Book of Hebrews and come up to speed on this New Covenant. And in Luke Jesus declared that His blood was the blood of the New Covenant.

You're right back to using circular logic to justify the

revisionist theology of the New Testament.

The New Testament Book of Hebrews contradicts God's prior word.

It can't bring anyone up to speed on anything unless they want to study a manual on how to create new doctrines by using out of context quotes mixed with wishful thinking.

You still haven't provided any citation from the law that authorizes it.

Where does the new covenant, as defined by God in the Hebrew scriptures say anything about human blood being the centerpiece of a new covenant?

Chapter and verse please.

 

OR, just try to keep God's law to be 'credited' with a righteous state. And make some animal sacrifices. BTW, what animal sacrifices did poor Lazarus make, or the thief on the cross, or that tax-collector Zacchaeus, or that sinful woman in Luke chap 7, or that tax-collector in Luke 18?

Luke 1:5-6 already shows that people are righteous if they keep the law.

Are you claiming a contradiction exists?

 

Yet, in the absence of any animal sacrifices - Jesus stated they were saved, delivered, justified in God's sight! Did Jesus lie to them?

As a messianic impostor, Jesus had no authority to promise them anything.

 

Cite the verses in the Hebrew scriptures that state salvation can only be found by faith in a three person God. Until then, you’ve got nothing but a load of revisionist theology.

 

Revised by who? Jesus?

Jesus and his cult followers.

 

And I think I've already stated sufficient OT data re: the Trinity in the OT; but Isa 48:12-16 will suffice for now.

Isa 48:12-16 doesn't say anything about a three person God.

[centauri]

This is my prayer for you, and Centauri;

 

Luke 24:44–47 (ESV)

44 Then he said to them, “These are my words that I spoke to you while I was still with you, that everything written about me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled.” 45 Then he opened their minds to understand the Scriptures, 46 and said to them, “Thus it is written, that the Christ should suffer and on the third day rise from the dead, 47 and that repentance and forgiveness of sins should be proclaimed in his name to all nations, beginning from Jerusalem.

Prayers relating to a dead cult leader don't have any more power than carrying a rabbit's foot around in your pocket.

Aside from the obvious lack of anything concrete about Jesus appearing in the law of Moses, or elsewhere, you can prove just how reliable the cult leader was by citing where it is written that a king messiah would die, be raised from the dead in three days, and would replace God as savior.

This is what the Bible God says about people that ignore his precepts and chase after false saviors.

 

Prov 28:9

He that turneth away his ear from hearing the law, even his prayer shall be abomination.

 

You'd do better to get on your knees and pray for yourself.

[rayskidude]

Hey Ray, if I started answering everything you ask with Islamic preaching's and quotes, what would your thoughts be about my position on any given issue? What would you think of me?

 

I guess I would consider you are former professing Christian (ex-Christian) who has become Muslim. But I would wonder about that process, why someone would consider allah as their god - since allah loves only obedience and does not recognize his followers as his children. And that fact that, if you were to make it to paradise to be in your tent in your oasis with your 42 virgins (I get that number from the author ibn-Wariq, a former Muslim) - you would never see allah >> as they say allah is transcendent over all and no one ever approaches him. So, if it's carnal pleasures that you crave >> just enjoy now - why wait?

 

In fact, Muhammad himself consummated his marriage with Aisha, his child bride, who by varying accounts was between 9 - 13 yrs-old, and Muhammad was 53 yrs-old. Didn't we just convict that Mormon William Jeffs for pretty much the same thing? Not to mention, Muhammad had his adopted son Zaid divorce his wife so that 6 months later Muhammad could marry her >> his own daughter-in-law!

 

BTW, I would encourage you to read the works of Joseph Smith the founder of Mormonism. He also received revelation about polygamy, naming specific women to marry, taking other men's wives as his own, etc. Much similarity between Islam and Mormon religions.

 

and I would send you to consult with my buddy 'centauri', because Islam is a very legalistic system of works-righteousness - and centauri also holds that view.

 

That's a start.

[AlphaToOmega]

 

I guess I would consider you are former professing Christian (ex-Christian) who has become Muslim. But I would wonder about that process, why someone would consider allah as their god - since allah loves only obedience and does not recognize his followers as his children. And that fact that, if you were to make it to paradise to be in your tent in your oasis with your 42 virgins (I get that number from the author ibn-Wariq, a former Muslim) - you would never see allah >> as they say allah is transcendent over all and no one ever approaches him. So, if it's carnal pleasures that you crave >> just enjoy now - why wait?

 

In fact, Muhammad himself consummated his marriage with Aisha, his child bride, who by varying accounts was between 9 - 13 yrs-old, and Muhammad was 53 yrs-old. Didn't we just convict that Mormon William Jeffs for pretty much the same thing? Not to mention, Muhammad had his adopted son Zaid divorce his wife so that 6 months later Muhammad could marry her >> his own daughter-in-law!

 

BTW, I would encourage you to read the works of Joseph Smith the founder of Mormonism. He also received revelation about polygamy, naming specific women to marry, taking other men's wives as his own, etc. Much similarity between Islam and Mormon religions.

 

and I would send you to consult with my buddy 'centauri', because Islam is a very legalistic system of works-righteousness - and centauri also holds that view.

 

That's a start.

 

 

That would be great but I'm not a Muslim. I'm an atheist but on some days I believe in myself so you could say I'm agnostic.

 

My point being, would you find anything compelling in someone using Islamic quotes as a way to convert you to Islam?

No you wouldn't. So why subject everyone here to what you yourself would not want?

 

You're on an ex-christian site. People here know the bible. They rejected it. I'm sure many know it better than you. Many were total 100% behind it till they totally rejected it.

Arguing with anyone here by using the bible as a source is not going to win anyone over and will serve nothing other than polarize the readers against you and Christianity.

Basically you are only making it harder to get someone to convert. If its not the aim then you are making your God's work harder by scaring off his flock into the wind.

IOW, where is the point of doing it?

 

 

 

 

 

[rayskidude]

Rayskidude says >> The New Covenant, based on better promises, mediated by a better mediator, Jesus God the Son >> greater than Moses or even angels. Read the Book of Hebrews and come up to speed on this New Covenant. And in Luke Jesus declared that His blood was the blood of the New Covenant.

 

You're right back to using circular logic to justify the

revisionist theology of the New Testament. The New Testament Book of Hebrews contradicts God's prior word. It can't bring anyone up to speed on anything unless they want to study a manual on how to create new doctrines by using out of context quotes mixed with wishful thinking. You still haven't provided any citation from the law that authorizes it.

 

Who says these must be stated in the Law of Moses? You? By what authority? The New Covenant, which supersedes the Old Covenant - was revealed by Yahweh to Jeremiah and Ezekiel. Certainly, you're not ignorant of this fact.

 

Jeremiah 31:31–34 (ESV)

The New Covenant

31 “Behold, the days are coming, declares the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, 32 not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, my covenant that they broke, though I was their husband, declares the LORD. 33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the LORD: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 34 And no longer shall each one teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, ‘Know the LORD,’ for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, declares the LORD. For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.”

 

Ezekiel 36:25–27 (ESV)

25 I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. 26 And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules."

 

And for the explanation of the Apostle Paul;

 

2 Corinthians 3:1–18 (ESV)

Ministers of the New Covenant

3 Are we beginning to commend ourselves again? Or do we need, as some do, letters of recommendation to you, or from you? 2 You yourselves are our letter of recommendation, written on our hearts, to be known and read by all. 3 And you show that you are a letter from Christ delivered by us, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts.

4 Such is the confidence that we have through Christ toward God. 5 Not that we are sufficient in ourselves to claim anything as coming from us, but our sufficiency is from God, 6 who has made us competent to be ministers of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit. For the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

7 Now if the ministry of death, carved in letters on stone, came with such glory that the Israelites could not gaze at Moses’ face because of its glory, which was being brought to an end, 8 will not the ministry of the Spirit have even more glory? 9 For if there was glory in the ministry of condemnation, the ministry of righteousness must far exceed it in glory. 10 Indeed, in this case, what once had glory has come to have no glory at all, because of the glory that surpasses it. 11 For if what was being brought to an end came with glory, much more will what is permanent have glory.

12 Since we have such a hope, we are very bold, 13 not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face so that the Israelites might not gaze at the outcome of what was being brought to an end. 14 But their minds were hardened. For to this day, when they read the old covenant, that same veil remains unlifted, because only through Christ is it taken away. 15 Yes, to this day whenever Moses is read a veil lies over their hearts. 16 But when one turns to the Lord, the veil is removed. 17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. 18 And we all, with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another. For this comes from the Lord who is the Spirit.

 

Where does the new covenant, as defined by God in the Hebrew Scriptures say anything about human blood being the centerpiece of a new covenant?

 

Again, I've already told you - see Psalm 22 and Isaiah 52:13-53:12. And if you think these passages refer to David & Isaiah, respectively > then please explain how these men fulfilled these Hebrew Scriptures!

 

Are you claiming a contradiction exists?

 

No - I claim that you do not understand Scripture, much like the Pharisees and Sadducees did not understand Scripture their own Hebrew Scripture. And you clearly do not understand the difference between atonement and propitiation. Study up!

 

Isa 48:12-16 doesn't say anything about a three person God.

 

Isaiah 48:12–16 (ESV)

 

The LORD’s Call to Israel

12 “Listen to me, O Jacob,

and Israel, whom I called!

I am he; I am the first,

and I am the last.

13 My hand laid the foundation of the earth,

and my right hand spread out the heavens;

when I call to them,

they stand forth together.

 

14 “Assemble, all of you, and listen!

Who among them has declared these things?

The LORD loves him;

he shall perform his purpose on Babylon,

and his arm shall be against the Chaldeans.

15 I, even I, have spoken and called him;

I have brought him, and he will prosper in his way.

16 Draw near to me, hear this:

from the beginning I have not spoken in secret,

from the time it came to be I have been there.”

And now the Lord GOD has sent me, and his Spirit.

 

#1 - I am the first and the last (Jesus, Son of God, Creator >> Psalm 102:25-27, compare to Hebrews 1:10-12

#2 - the Lord GOD (Adonai Yahweh)

#3 - His Spirit (the Holy Spirit)

[AlphaToOmega]

How can I argue with that logic.

Jebus is the Liiiight!!!!

[centauri]

Rayskidude says >> The New Covenant, based on better promises, mediated by a better mediator, Jesus God the Son >> greater than Moses or even angels. Read the Book of Hebrews and come up to speed on this New Covenant. And in Luke Jesus declared that His blood was the blood of the New Covenant.

 

You're right back to using circular logic to justify the

revisionist theology of the New Testament. The New Testament Book of Hebrews contradicts God's prior word. It can't bring anyone up to speed on anything unless they want to study a manual on how to create new doctrines by using out of context quotes mixed with wishful thinking. You still haven't provided any citation from the law that authorizes it.

 

Who says these must be stated in the Law of Moses? You? By what authority?

The authority is the God of the Bible, and the “Old Testament” was written long before Christianity came along and revised the rules contained in it.

Humans are not authorized by God for use in sin sacrifices.

It’s illegal and considered pagan.

Now, if you don’t want to believe that God inspired the Old Testament that’s another issue.

 

The New Covenant, which supersedes the Old Covenant - was revealed by Yahweh to Jeremiah and Ezekiel. Certainly, you're not ignorant of this fact.

The new covenant as defined by Jeremiah has nothing to do with Jesus.

There is no faith needed in a human sin sacrifice, nor is any such thing even mentioned.

Nor has the new covenant been initiated yet.

If it had, all people would know the Hebrew God, just as Jeremiah said.

 

Jeremiah 31:31–34 (ESV)

The New Covenant

31 “Behold, the days are coming, declares the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, 32 not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, my covenant that they broke, though I was their husband, declares the LORD. 33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the LORD: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 34 And no longer shall each one teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, ‘Know the LORD,’ for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, declares the LORD. For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.”

 

Ezekiel 36:25–27 (ESV)

25 I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. 26 And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules."

Nothing in any of these verses says anything about Jesus, and it contradicts the New Testament.

In these verses, there is no one size fits all vicarious human sacrifice, which itself is illegal.

Each person will die for their own sin and the law would be reaffirmed under a new contract.

The new spirit will cause people to obey the law, and that also contradicts the New Testament, where the law is set aside in favor of a new religion revolving around a pagan human blood sacrifice.

Christians certainly do not carefully obey God’s law and they turn to a heretic called “Paul” for instructions on how to obtain easy salvation while ignoring the law.

 

And for the explanation of the Apostle Paul;

 

2 Corinthians 3:1–18 (ESV)

Ministers of the New Covenant

3 Are we beginning to commend ourselves again? Or do we need, as some do, letters of recommendation to you, or from you? 2 You yourselves are our letter of recommendation, written on our hearts, to be known and read by all. 3 And you show that you are a letter from Christ delivered by us, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts.

4 Such is the confidence that we have through Christ toward God. 5 Not that we are sufficient in ourselves to claim anything as coming from us, but our sufficiency is from God, 6 who has made us competent to be ministers of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit. For the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

7 Now if the ministry of death, carved in letters on stone, came with such glory that the Israelites could not gaze at Moses’ face because of its glory, which was being brought to an end, 8 will not the ministry of the Spirit have even more glory? 9 For if there was glory in the ministry of condemnation, the ministry of righteousness must far exceed it in glory. 10 Indeed, in this case, what once had glory has come to have no glory at all, because of the glory that surpasses it. 11 For if what was being brought to an end came with glory, much more will what is permanent have glory.

12 Since we have such a hope, we are very bold, 13 not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face so that the Israelites might not gaze at the outcome of what was being brought to an end. 14 But their minds were hardened. For to this day, when they read the old covenant, that same veil remains unlifted, because only through Christ is it taken away. 15 Yes, to this day whenever Moses is read a veil lies over their hearts. 16 But when one turns to the Lord, the veil is removed. 17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. 18 And we all, with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another. For this comes from the Lord who is the Spirit.

You’re back to circular logic again, this time using Paul to validate Paul.

There is no new covenant based on a human blood sacrifice found in Jer 31 or Ezek 36.

Using the New Testament to validate the New Testament is like using a Ford advertising brochure to prove that Ford makes the best trucks. It doesn’t prove anything.

[centauri]

centauri:

Where does the new covenant, as defined by God in the Hebrew Scriptures say anything about human blood being the centerpiece of a new covenant?

 

Again, I've already told you - see Psalm 22 and Isaiah 52:13-53:12. And if you think these passages refer to David & Isaiah, respectively > then please explain how these men fulfilled these Hebrew Scriptures!

These verses say nothing about a new covenant and they don’t validate anything concerning that covenant.

You already cited Jer 31, which actually does describe and define the new covenant.

Where does Jer 31 say anything about human blood being the centerpiece of a new covenant?

All you’ve done is tell me that your wishful thinking and subjective interpretations are somehow proof that the new covenant is about a human sacrifice called “Jesus”.

The Old Testament doesn’t confirm this at all and if you think it does, then give the verses from Jer 31 that prove it.

Israel is the servant in Isa 52-53 and is defined as the servant in Isa 49.

Psa 22 is about David and his troubles.

 

Are you claiming a contradiction exists?

 

No - I claim that you do not understand Scripture, much like the Pharisees and Sadducees did not understand Scripture their own Hebrew Scripture. And you clearly do not understand the difference between atonement and propitiation. Study up!

Oh my goodness.

I’m being scolded yet again by a know-it-all preacher that can’t provide simple validation from his own holy book that confirms his theological whims and imaginings.

Apparently you think people should swallow your propaganda without noticing how superficial it is.

 

You still haven’t provided anything from God’s holy law that authorizes human beings to be used in sin sacrifices.

 

You still haven’t provided anything from God’s word in the Old Testament that says the new covenant would be based on a vicarious human blood sacrifice.

 

You can bleat all day long about how I can’t understand what scripture says, and compare me to the “ignorant” Jews, but the burden of proof is on you to actually provide validation for the legality of a human sin sacrifice and for the new covenant being based on such a sacrifice.

You haven’t provided that proof despite repeated requests to do so.

I must conclude that you can’t provide it because it doesn’t exist.

That blows a gapping hole in your theology and perhaps you think people won’t notice.

In this forum, I wouldn’t count on that if I were you.

You can resolve this very quickly by providing scriptures from the law and from Jeremiah that confirm your theology as being in compliance with God’s original word, or you can play the pretend game in an attempt to bulldoze your propaganda among people that have rejected your notions and imaginings.

 

centauri:

Isa 48:12-16 doesn't say anything about a three person God.

 

Rayskidude:

Isaiah 48:12–16 (ESV)

 

The LORD’s Call to Israel

12 “Listen to me, O Jacob,

and Israel, whom I called!

I am he; I am the first,

and I am the last.

13 My hand laid the foundation of the earth,

and my right hand spread out the heavens;

when I call to them,

they stand forth together.

 

14 “Assemble, all of you, and listen!

Who among them has declared these things?

The LORD loves him;

he shall perform his purpose on Babylon,

and his arm shall be against the Chaldeans.

15 I, even I, have spoken and called him;

I have brought him, and he will prosper in his way.

16 Draw near to me, hear this:

from the beginning I have not spoken in secret,

from the time it came to be I have been there.”

And now the Lord GOD has sent me, and his Spirit.

 

#1 - I am the first and the last (Jesus, Son of God, Creator >> Psalm 102:25-27, compare to Hebrews 1:10-12

#2 - the Lord GOD (Adonai Yahweh)

#3 - His Spirit (the Holy Spirit)

There is no three person God defined in this.

Jesus is not the Hebrew God nor is he the first and the last.

A son of God is not the first creator because a son by definition must be younger than his father.

Psa 102:25-27 says nothing about Jesus and using Heb 1 is more circular logic.

Jesus is not mentioned at all.

The Hebrew deity is a singular being, there are no others beside him, no three persons, and no other saviors.

 

Isa 45:21-22

Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me.

Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.