LilaMae Posted September 2, 2008 Share Posted September 2, 2008 Why do Christians keep saying that heaven is a free gift? It isn't! It's like finding a note from someone on your doorstep saying that they're going to get you a really great present one of these days. It's not there, you aren't allowed to see it, or talk to anyone who has previously got such a great present (although they assure you those people were delighted), but it's somewhere, and one day someone's going to turn up and give you this really cool present. Sounds great, right? Just one catch. You have to *believe* that you're going to get the gift. It doesn't matter that you never receive another note, and that you're really not sure about who wrote the first one, if you don't believe, when this person turns up, you won't get the gift. Instead, they will beat the crap out of you. After all, that's fair, because once you stole a grape, and remember that time you disobeyed your mother? You deserve to have the crap beaten out of you! I mean, you were told this in the note. You have free will, and you made the decision *not* to believe and accept this great gift which would have saved you from an ass-kicking. But this note-giver? He's a really nice guy. He really doesn't want to beat the crap out of you. It's just that he has to, because of the rules he made. ******************* Rant over. Apologies, some idiots are irritating the hell out of me with this today! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spiderwire Posted September 2, 2008 Share Posted September 2, 2008 What other kind of gift could there be other than a free one? And, if I had a gift to offer someone and they didn't want it, I wouldn't torture and punish and burn them for all the rest of eternity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OnceConvinced Posted September 3, 2008 Share Posted September 3, 2008 LOL. Free gift indeed. There's an awful lot of small print when it comes to receiving that gift. You have to be a "true Christian" and there are many many things to stop you from being that! It's amazing how Christians cannot see the truth of their salvation message and just how sick it truly is. What really gets to me to are those idiots that try to tell us that God doesn't send us to Hell, that we choose it. The scriptures clearly tell us that God is going to round up all us evil unbelievers, but no he's not going to throw us into Hell himself. He's going to get the angels to do his dirty work for him: Matthew 13:40-42: "Just as the weeds are separated out and burned, so it will be at the end of the world. I, the Son of Man, will send my angels, and they will remove from my Kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil, and they will throw them into the furnace and burn them. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spiderwire Posted September 3, 2008 Share Posted September 3, 2008 LOL. Free gift indeed. There's an awful lot of small print when it comes to receiving that gift. You have to be a "true Christian" and there are many many things to stop you from being that! It's amazing how Christians cannot see the truth of their salvation message and just how sick it truly is. What really gets to me to are those idiots that try to tell us that God doesn't send us to Hell, that we choose it. The scriptures clearly tell us that God is going to round up all us evil unbelievers, but no he's not going to throw us into Hell himself. He's going to get the angels to do his dirty work for him: Matthew 13:40-42: "Just as the weeds are separated out and burned, so it will be at the end of the world. I, the Son of Man, will send my angels, and they will remove from my Kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil, and they will throw them into the furnace and burn them. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." Is this before Satan is tossed into the bottomless pit, Christ rules the planet for 1,000 years , and then Satan gets let back out to deceive the nations? Or is this when the devil and his angels and death and hell are thrown into the lake of fire? I ONCE TOOK ALL THAT BULLSHIT SO SERIOUSLY!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RevOxley_501 Posted September 3, 2008 Share Posted September 3, 2008 why did god go an tie his hands up like that anyway? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwc Posted September 3, 2008 Share Posted September 3, 2008 Is this before Satan is tossed into the bottomless pit, Christ rules the planet for 1,000 years , and then Satan gets let back out to deceive the nations? Or is this when the devil and his angels and death and hell are thrown into the lake of fire? Good question. Fortunately science has the the answer. Just as we now know that heaven and hell are outside of our dimension (thanks to science) we can explain such biblical "anomalies" in much the same fashion. Unfortunately, the unbelievers have used science to try to disprove the truth that is held within the bible so this field is really very much at its "genesis" (I couldn't resist the pun) and will likely change as research continues (believers are avid truth seekers as I'm sure you're well aware). As you may have already guessed the one true "god" has created many "paths" for his flock. Just as there are many ways to get to his son jesus (ie. the many true sects of xianity) they have a number of differing end times "beliefs." This would appear to be a result of the "mind" of men. No. "God" has simply chosen a different path for his "elect" that have chosen to follow him of their free will (this is not a contradiction but I will not explain it). Just like a rancher may have different "paths" for his animals. When the "end" comes a believer will be immediately, and transparently, sent to the appropriate "end times" dimension to follow the path that has been chosen for them. Once the ultimate "end" comes all threads will collapse transparently into one. No muss. No fuss. No contradictions. It's pure science and the bible had it thousands of years ago. Would you like to come to future meetings to learn more about how evil you are and how science isn't just about facts, experimentation and repeatability? mwc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neon Genesis Posted September 3, 2008 Share Posted September 3, 2008 Does the bible even actually say that salvation is a free gift? Or is that one of those things xtians make up like the whole relationship with Jesus thing? I don't get this whole "free gift" idea. I mean, I don't go around beating up the people who don't accept my gifts. Does this make me more moral than god? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
been there done that Posted September 7, 2008 Share Posted September 7, 2008 Yes, the bible does say it is a free gift (because it is). http://cf.blb.org/search/translationResult...;t=RSV&sf=5 ....HOWEVER ONLY a 'GODLY' person (having a peaceful and just spirit/demeanor) will/can POSSESS salvation. Nothing is required IN RETURN (therefore it is FREE). Salvation has already been made AVAILABLE to everyone on earth (Luke 3:6 is very clear about that)... "and all flesh shall see the salvation of God." the "however" is just as I said... ...because it is ONLY having a Godly spirit/demeanor of peaceful coexistence that IS THE GUARANTEE of salvation. This is also stated very clearly in scripture, but christians don't make these words, or any of the words in scripture, meaningful to them. In a very true sense, christians do not have the ability to SEE (make meaningful to themselves) verses that would conflict with the "christian money making machine" and the "ego/condescension empire", just like you won't be able to understand what I just wrote if you don't want/wish/desire to (meaning that if you don't WANT to understand, you simply will NOT BE ABLE to understand). It is the same with "christians", they don't WANT to understand objective truth, they only want to understand SUBJECTIVE/biased/emotional truth that will validate their "christian empire" so they can continue to imagine themselves as "ACHEIVING worthiness" (self works). The "works" that we are supposed to do are the "WORKS OF GOD" by simply RESTING in The Lord and trusting that He did everything that is necessary for us to enter the new heaven... (not just CRUCIFIXION). John 6:28 "Then they said to him, "What must we do, to be doing the works of God?" John 9:3 (Jesus said that HE came to do the "works of God" for us). "that the WORKS OF GOD might be made manifest in him. PASTORS don't want me to declare the truth that HUMAN teachers are not necessary (it would put them out of business). Churchgoers don't want to hear me say anything against their favorite icon/teacher, it's just like being the fan of a rockstar, being a fan/student gives them IDENTITY. Be secure in knowing who you are, "I am who I am" wants you to have THAT identity. Everybody already has annointing (if only we would acknowledge it). We don't need any human teacher, only God's spirit teaches what is true... 1 John 2:27 "the anointing which you received from him abides in you, and you have no need that any one should teach you; as his anointing teaches you about everything, and [it] is TRUE" Scripture is not for any special/certain group, it is FOR ALL HUMANITY (parts of it ADDRESS certain groups,...such as the Hebrew Christians, Pharisees, etc.). Simply being a "civilized" (peaceful and just) person is GODLY. 2 Corinthians 5:5 "who has PREPARED us for this very thing is God, who has GIVEN/left us the SPIRIT as a GUARANTEE"... (we are in PREPARATION for the new heaven and/but must have a PRESENT heaven in our heart and mind). Ephesians 1:14 "which is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it" Very often, the HUMAN WAY of giving a gift has 'strings attached' (expecting something in return). Even if it is simply that GRATITUDE/gratefulness is expected in return, human GIFTS are usually imperialistic, but God doesn't give those kinds of gifts (His GIFT is FREE and nothing is expected IN RETURN (but the result of being rescued/saved from the doom of a future hell will naturally produce a peaceful and just spirit/character/demeanor). God's gift is not imperialistic, it is FREE. So, if you do the works of God properly, you are going to have to find something to do in order to overcome BOREDOM (hobby, career, etc.??). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HuaiDan Posted September 7, 2008 Share Posted September 7, 2008 All well and fine, but the bible is a fairy tale. [/discussion] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
been there done that Posted September 7, 2008 Share Posted September 7, 2008 HuaiDan, I assume that you are still convinced that a creator exists, but it's simply the validity of the bible as being the truth about Him that you question. Even 23 years ago, before I became convinced that the bible contained the truth about the creator, I believed that in order for the creator to have us return to Him in the afterlife, we would have to be "purified" and someone would have to be sent in the creator's name in order for this to happen. So, the creator sent His son (Jesus) for TWO purposes...(to purify our flesh AND then also to purify our CONSCIENCE, Hebrews 9:14). Jesus was sent to... 1) to be the sacrificial "lamb" on the cross. 2) leave God's spirit (so that we could learn to be Godly instead of causing evil and making each other miserable for the rest of our lives). Christianity conveniently ignores the second deed of Jesus because... 1) it rather not rely on (and give credit to) God for spiritual teaching/growth. 2) they'd rather not accept responsibilty for doing anything evil (they'd rather blame it on the devil, but satan can only TEMPT and confuse our thinking, HUMAN BEINGS make the decision to CAUSE evil). All humanity has always used satan as a scapegoat, that's why evil keeps happening. Peace and harmony (peaceful coexistence) are logical, evil is illogical (because it prevents peaceful coexistence). This is the 'rule of thumb' of God's law. Adam and Eve ate of the tree of the knowledge of/about GOOD and EVIL (evil is anything that a person does that will prevent "GOOD"/peaceful coexistence). This is a very important understanding because it is what God wants us to understand... Hebrews 5:14 "the mature, for those who have their faculties trained by practice to distinguish good from evil". In human languages, the words "RIGHT" and "WRONG" only express a MORALITY "code", not the significance/concept of "peaceful coexistence" (philisophical understanding necessary). The real word of God ("SWORD" of the spirit) makes the clear distinction between GOOD and EVIL (as a sword would). In HUMAN LANGUAGE, the bible (and Jesus) does use the word "RIGHTeousness", but that might be only sloppy translation of the words that Jesus actually did speak (yet the concept of "right" is still valid). This understanding of "good/evil" as being more significant than just "right/wrong" should suggest to you that bible scripture is more valid than other scriptures in the world (I don't know of anything else that makes the distinction between "good/evil" and "right/wrong"). There are TWO messages in the bible, one for the carnal mind (literary, textual), and one for the spiritual mind ("depths of God"). Each person will find whichever they are looking for (whichever the reader WANTS to see). However mankind writes/translates or INTERPRETS it, God meant scripture in SPIRITUAL terms (in order to be UNDERSTOOD, not INTERPRETED). Everything in scripture happened as it was supposed to, nothing is happenstance/random occurence. God made sure that all of the words that were recorded would be available so that someday we could learn from them, but christianity would rather see "COMMANDS/commandments", parables, ancient history, etc. instead of 'wise counsel'/good advice, and God's insight into human nature/the mind and OBJECTIVE truth. Only a philosophical and spiritual mind would wonder why God had Pilate ask "What is TRUTH?" (referring to humanity's preference for SUBJECTIVE/biased truth) and understand the importance of "objective" truth... 2 Thessalonians 2:10 "AND SO BE SAVED". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spiderwire Posted September 7, 2008 Share Posted September 7, 2008 Even 23 years ago, before I became convinced that the bible contained the truth about the creator, I believed that in order for the creator to have us return to Him in the afterlife, we would have to be "purified" and someone would have to be sent in the creator's name in order for this to happen. You're so full of shit, your eyes are brown. Get over yourself! Your arrogance is stinkin' the place up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HuaiDan Posted September 7, 2008 Share Posted September 7, 2008 I assume that you are still convinced that a creator exists, but it's simply the validity of the bible as being the truth about Him that you question. Look under my avvy where it says, "any gods?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
insanezenmistress Posted September 7, 2008 Share Posted September 7, 2008 been there.....perhaps if many chrisitans where brought up in the kind of gospel you precent, more christians would still be seeking christ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neon Genesis Posted September 7, 2008 Share Posted September 7, 2008 PASTORS don't want me to declare the truth that HUMAN teachers are not necessary (it would put them out of business).Oh, so since you're a human teacher and you're teaching the "truth" to us, does that mean you're unnecessary and we shouldn't listen to you? Sounds good to me. God's gift is not imperialistic, it is FREE. So, if you do the works of God properly, you are going to have to find something to do in order to overcome BOREDOM (hobby, career, etc.??).Did you even bother to read the opening post in this thread? This kind of "logic" is exactly the kind of contradiction the opening was talking about. And I still fail to see how you're saying anything remotely different than other Christians. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LilaMae Posted September 7, 2008 Author Share Posted September 7, 2008 BTDT, you have never explained to us why you, singularly, have managed to attain the correct interpretation of scripture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spiderwire Posted September 7, 2008 Share Posted September 7, 2008 And that's the kicker!!! Every time this guy opens his mouth, the delusions of grandeur spew. It's... it's... it's like his mind is aglow with whirling, transient nodes of thought careening through a cosmic vapor of invention! His mind is a raging torrent, flooded with rivulets of thought cascading into a waterfall of creative alternatives!!! He's got the inside track... if only we'd just heed his words. Mr. been there done that, indeed! Ever hear of megalomania??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centauri Posted September 7, 2008 Share Posted September 7, 2008 Yes, the bible does say it is a free gift (because it is). ....HOWEVER ONLY a 'GODLY' person (having a peaceful and just spirit/demeanor) will/can POSSESS salvation. Nothing is required IN RETURN (therefore it is FREE). No, it is not free. Truly free gifts require nothing in return. The requirements for salvation are belief, confession of that belief, maintaining the belief, repenting, being baptized, and performing some good works. These are not optional responses, they're required in order to get the reward. If you don't believe in the doctrine, you not only fail to get the reward, you will be punished as well. Salvation has already been made AVAILABLE to everyone on earth (Luke 3:6 is very clear about that)..."and all flesh shall see the salvation of God." the "however" is just as I said... ...because it is ONLY having a Godly spirit/demeanor of peaceful coexistence that IS THE GUARANTEE of salvation. Unless you take affirmative actions and perform certain acts, you don't get saved. God's gift is not imperialistic, it is FREE. So, if you do the works of God properly, you are going to have to find something to do in order to overcome BOREDOM (hobby, career, etc.??). It's not free if there are conditions that must be met to acquire it. The New Testament says there are conditions to salvation and in order to be saved you must perform them, or suffer the consequences. You must take affirmative actions. That's not free, it's conditional. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centauri Posted September 7, 2008 Share Posted September 7, 2008 Jesus was sent to... 1) to be the sacrificial "lamb" on the cross. At the risk of going off the topic of the "free" gift, where do the Hebrew scriptures in Lev 4 say that a human being could be substituted for any of the animals that were to be used in sin sacrifices? Peace and harmony (peaceful coexistence) are logical, evil is illogical (because it prevents peaceful coexistence). This is the 'rule of thumb' of God's law. Evil ultimately comes from God, just as all others things are supposed to. Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. Adam and Eve ate of the tree of the knowledge of/about GOOD and EVIL (evil is anything that a person does that will prevent "GOOD"/peaceful coexistence). Then Jesus was promoting evil when he claimed that his mission was to bring disharmony, rather than peace, to the earth. Luke 12:51 Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neon Genesis Posted September 8, 2008 Share Posted September 8, 2008 Our preacher at church tonight claimed that when the bible says salvation is a free gift, it really means that salvation is a gift that's freely given but that still doesn't make sense. That would be like a store claiming to give away free coke, but then you go to the store and you pick up a free coke and they tell you that the coke is just freely given and you have to buy another coke to get the extra free. So, then they decide to throw you out of the store and ban you from going back and claim you stole it when it's their fault for claiming it was free. And isn't the prophecy in Philippians 2:10-11 a contradiction to the existence of hell? that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, 11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted September 8, 2008 Share Posted September 8, 2008 ...Peace and harmony (peaceful coexistence) are logical, evil is illogical (because it prevents peaceful coexistence). This is the 'rule of thumb' of God's law. Adam and Eve ate of the tree of the knowledge of/about GOOD and EVIL (evil is anything that a person does that will prevent "GOOD"/peaceful coexistence). This is a very important understanding because it is what God wants us to understand... ... If Adam and Eve didn't know the difference between good and evil (moral and immoral, obedience and rebellion) before they ate the fruit, how could they be blamed for have made the wrong decision? The ability (faculty) didn't exist until after the event. So I'm not sure what you want us to understand, and what's important about it, because it is a completely ludicrous fiction story! Do you get what I just said? Lets do it again: Adam and Eve were ignorant, stupid, incompetent, undeveloped, untrained, in total lack of skill or understanding of, and blessed with the religious mind where they didn't know what evil or disobedience was. How could they make a "right" choice, when they didn't understand the concept of "making a right choice" was? Basically, they didn't know the difference between obeying God and not, or even understand why it was wrong to not obey. They got tricked that the fruit wouldn't kill them... and lo and behold, it was true, the fruit didn't kill them, the snake was right, God had kept secrets from them, and from this there were considered guilty? I heard from some theologian that the correct interpretation of sin is that Adam and Eve did not sin, but the first sin was in the story of Cain and Abel, since there they had the ability to know right and wrong, and using the will to do wrong is the sin. Think about it. You have a child that don't know the difference between a real gun and a plastic gun. You hand the child a real gun, and tell the child not to play with it, because if it does, it will create great havoc and infinite turmoil and despair. Do you think the child understand what you even said, and will you send the kid out on the street, without clothes or food, and you shut and lock the door, if the kid still fire the gun? After all, you gave the gun to the kid. You give some strange instructions about things the kid didn't have a frame of reference to understand. And you would blame and punish the kid for using the gun? I'd say: it is your fault if the kid fires the gun, not the kids. And the court would most likely agree. But when it comes to God, he is a tricky bastard who play his own game, and call it "good" and "right". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoosier Posted September 8, 2008 Share Posted September 8, 2008 Heavens only free for non drinkers, non cussers, boring peopke. All the cool people go to hell basically. Only stupid people who never wonder about things seem to be able to get into heaven. I dunno why religous peolple have such a problem, it aint like there not under the influence! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
been there done that Posted September 8, 2008 Share Posted September 8, 2008 Neon Genesis, If I understood properly what you wrote (that you have a preacher), I'm very, very sorry that you still feel obligated to pay any attention to pastors at all (I'm not being sarcastic). Anyway, I am NOT a teacher and I suggest that you ONLY let God be your spiritual teacher. He will teach you what is TRUE about Him (unlike mankind/humanity/society). We already have anointing because we were made in God's image, God meant the bible for ALL HUMANITY, not any GROUP. 1 John 2:27 "the anointing which you received from him abides in you, and you have no need that any one [human] should teach you; as his anointing teaches you about everything, and is TRUE" I am only ANNOUNCING that we have all been taught wrong. If someone will think of me as a "spiritual" TEACHER, I will tell them straight out that I WILL NOT TEACH THEM...EVER, that is God's territory, and I would not DARE interfere. I am only announcing that what was taught in institutional christianity only contained SOME truth. The teachings were designed to CRUSH the human spirit and to make each person a non-thinking "robot", a machine, a UNIT of their "christian" empire (for control, money, power, and for their ego). If you are under the impression that I "teach" anything spiritually, you are WRONG. No one on earth has the right, authority, or qualifications to do so. If I preach anything, it is only "human freedom" that I preach/promote. I have only been trying to explain the LIES that have been taught, but if you think I "teach", do not listen to me at all, PLEASE!! The OLD testament is FINISHED/obsolete. At best, it can sometimes (hardly ever) be INTERESTING, that's all (ignore the O.T., Jesus wasn't even alive until 33 years before the crucifixion). The SPIRIT wasn't given until the O.T. was finished (John 7:39). Moses didn't hang on the cross. Who cares what a "Berean" was, they only searched their scriptures because they wanted to be FOLLOWERS OF PAUL, not God. So,forget about the O.T. completely, it is not for us, and forget about the parables, they are for the people who "worship with their lips" and aren't sincere.... Matthew 13:13 "This is why I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand" Paul said that he decided to know nothing but Christ and Him crucified. God wouldn't have ensured that the verse would be in scripture unless He wanted us to know that we can do the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted September 8, 2008 Share Posted September 8, 2008 We already have anointing because we were made in God's image, God meant the bible for ALL HUMANITY, not any GROUP. So basically you're saying that we know the truth intuitively and it's somehow innate in us. We don't need a teacher like you, or any dusty old book. Interesting, because my inner person say: God is just imaginary. And since you say my inner voice is correct, it must be true, God is just fiction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neon Genesis Posted September 8, 2008 Share Posted September 8, 2008 I have only been trying to explain the LIES that have been taught, but if you think I "teach", do not listen to me at all, PLEASE!!Sounds good to me. Remind us never to listen to you then since you've just admitted you are in fact teaching us. Definition of the word explain, "to make plain or clear; render understandable or intelligible" Definition of the word teach, "to impart knowledge of or skill in; give instruction in:" The purpose of a teacher is to explain things. If you're explaining things to us, then you are teaching us. Oh wait, I forgot, you're apparently above dictionaries and don't consider speaking actual words to be important. So,forget about the O.T. completely, it is not for us, and forget about the parables, they are for the people who "worship with their lips" and aren't sincere....What does this have to do with anything in this thread? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwc Posted September 8, 2008 Share Posted September 8, 2008 John 6:28 "Then they said to him, "What must we do, to be doing the works of God?" John 9:3 (Jesus said that HE came to do the "works of God" for us). "that the WORKS OF GOD might be made manifest in him. Or... 6:28 Then they said to him, "What must we do, to be doing the works of God?" 6:29 Jesus answered them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent." Because YOUR LIE is: "9:3 Jesus answered, "It was not that this man sinned, or his parents, but that the works of God might be made manifest in him." BTDT is a foolish man who LIES. Using the story of the blind man out of context to construct a false answer (ie. the "in him" is the BLIND MAN and not "jesus" moron). Churchgoers don't want to hear me say anything against their favorite icon/teacher, it's just like being the fan of a rockstar, being a fan/student gives them IDENTITY. Be secure in knowing who you are, "I am who I am" wants you to have THAT identity. I'm not a churchgoer and I simply and tired of your LIES and MANIPULATIONS of the texts. I don't accept word one of the bible as some sort of authoritative "truth" about a 'god" but I can't stomach how you so freely contort things suit yourself and try to pass your junk off as "enlightened" in some way. God's gift is not imperialistic, it is FREE. So, if you do the works of God properly, you are going to have to find something to do in order to overcome BOREDOM (hobby, career, etc.??). Like above where you said "John 9:3 (Jesus said that HE came to do the "works of God" for us)." So how does that work exactly numb nuts? I guess I do my "work" by letting "jesus" do his "work" which is to do "god's work for us?" A nifty little circle jerk we've got going on. mwc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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