Wonderingbread Posted September 9, 2008 Share Posted September 9, 2008 Just this evening my dad handed me, "The New Answers Book 2" by Ken Ham, who founded answersingenesis.com and The Creation Museum. Other than that, I don't know anything about the guy except that he's a bible literalist and supposedly one of the best defenders of literalism that there is. I personally don't give a rats behind about what he has to say since just skimming through the book reveals more prapoganda that I'm ready for. First thing I noticed was all the cartoon like pictures on almost every page illustrating the bible as "holy" just to make me feel like an idiot in case I forgot that part, but my question is... Should I read it just because I told my dad I would, otherwise feel guilty? Being a recent de-convert, should I hold off until I get my scientific bearings? Or should I just burn it...but I dunno I'm also running out of toilet paper so who knows... Has anyone ever read this book? Its interesting because its the 2nd edition and I've never read the first, I guess my dad just kinda grabbed whatever looked pretty Its worth mentioning that my dad has never-ever read any books on creationism and probably couldn't defend it it aside from what he already knows from the bible. What's your guys' take on the situation? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thurisaz Posted September 9, 2008 Share Posted September 9, 2008 Book --> Toilet paper Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Casey Posted September 9, 2008 Share Posted September 9, 2008 Other than that, I don't know anything about the guy except that he's a bible literalist and supposedly one of the best defenders of literalism that there is. | June 05, 2007 IN the beginning there were two Queensland evangelical Christians. One was a medical doctor, Carl Wieland, and the other a high school science teacher, Ken Ham. Although their professional lives were steeped in the basic tenets of science, they turned their backs on the teachings of evolutionary theory and embraced a literal interpretation of the Bible that the world was created by God in just six days. It was a message they thought had been forgotten in the modern world. Ham, born into a Christian family of six children in Cairns, was the first one to take a leap of faith. In the early 1980s he abandoned his job, after years of pushing his creationist teachings in the classroom, and established a ministry called Answers in Genesis from his home in the southern suburban backlots of Brisbane. Wieland was drawn to the ministry and attended services and lectures at night and weekends. But the pull of the message was too strong to be just a member of the flock. Soon, the successful GP was burning the midnight oil, editing and self-publishing a creationist magazine that set out to spiritually and scientifically demolish Charles Darwin's theory of evolution and propagate the Bible's explanation of the beginning of the world as more than just a rollicking parable. The rest is history of a ministry that has become one of the most powerful in the evangelical Christian world. Last week, the status, success and power of the Answers in Genesis ministry was ordained for even non-believers with the opening of its Creation Museum in Petersburg, Kentucky. Ham's immaculate concept of a pilgrimage place for the faithful was built on the back of $33 million in largely small donations raised in the US, where 65 per cent of the population regularly go to church, compared with 7 per cent in Australia. With exhibits of Noah's Ark, the Garden of Eden and dinosaurs walking with humans, the museum opened with much fanfare, as well as 4000 first-day visitors, some of whom had lined up overnight. Ham's foundation of the sprawling, hi-tech facility came as a revelation to the folks back home. He had left Australia in 1987 to set up the ministry in the US. Although he is a virtual unknown outside creationist circles in Australia, the father of five is a rising star of the US evangelical movement and, as a favourite of the network television talk shows, a face even non-Christian Americans recognise. The 55-year-old is heard every day on more than 1000 radio stations across the US, is a regular on the Christian speaking circuit and has set up arms of his organisation in Britain and Canada. AiG-USA is one of the fastest growing not-for-profit organisations in the US, taking donations from across the country but without the capital costs of building or buying churches because its prime purpose is as a visiting "power ministry" to various assemblies of Christians. It also tutors evangelical pastors from Africa and Asia before sending them back home to spread the word and collect more donations. In the US-based ministry's books and websites, Ham is touted as the "Martin Luther of this age". But it is his growing celebrity in the US, where preachers are treated like rock stars or even demi-gods, that threatens his ministry worldwide. On the same day the Creation Museum was opened, Wieland, who stayed behind to run the Australian ministry, launched civil action against the US arm that he had helped Ham formally establish in 1994. Until recently he had also served as a board director. The statement of claim in the Queensland Supreme Court, as well as a 40-page internal report obtained by The Australian, has launched an unholy war between Ham and Wieland for the future of the ministry. It reveals a bitter power struggle that has been witnessed time and again in various churches since Christianity began 2000 years ago. The public fight had its genesis three years ago when Wieland, backed by the US ministry's deputy leader, Brandon Vallorani, came to the view that Ham was out of control. A joint Australian-US push for reform was launched in August 2004, citing concerns over Ham's domination of the ministries, the money being spent on wages for executives and a perceived shift away from delivering the creationist message to raising donations. "We have seen a subtle shift in focus from proclaiming the message (to the grassroots Christian pew) to promoting AiG and asking for funds purely to keep the organisation going," a letter to Ham said. It also claimed there were "staff casualties" of dissenters in the organisation who had been sidelined or terminated. But the greatest concern was that "the ministry is far too dependent on one person, which makes it extremely vulnerable". The proposed reforms called for greater democratisation of the ministries across the world and for Ham, as well as Wieland, to step back from the day-to-day running. It was a difficult move for Wieland, who told The Australian he was "very aware" the stoush could become public and cause "substantial adverse publicity". In correspondence obtained by The Australian, Wieland claims to have challenged Ham's leadership because of a promise made to him when they were starting out. Wieland's fears about his friend's power is evident in the fact he taped, then transcribed, a telephone call to Ham that previewed the arrival, days later, of the reform letters. The conversation transcript, contained in the internal report, covers only what Wieland is alleged to have said: "Ken, I have never seen anything more obvious and I am not the only person in the world ... who thinks that the whole thing is heading in the direction of Ken Ham ministries rather than Answers in Genesis," the transcript reads. "That's the bottom line. You asked me years ago to tell you when I thought you had a pride and ego problem, and I think ... that time has come. Anybody who is allowed to look into it from the outside, and not just see the image, the glittering image, can see that there is huge wastage, Ken ... it's all geared to the big guy at the top." The proposals for reform were immediately rejected by Ham. His position has not changed. Contacted yesterday by the The Australian, Ham at first refused to discuss the issue before launching a verbal tirade against Wieland and his supporters. "These are false, outlandish allegations that are being made, they were never true," Ham says. "This organisation is run by a board of independent directors who are godly men and whose only interests are to spread the message of the Bible. "We are independently audited. It is all a set-up by Doc Wieland, and since this thing started he has run a campaign that is nothing short of a kangaroo court against me." The kangaroo court Ham refers to is an internal judicial review about the dispute, headed by respected former NSW chief magistrate Clarrie Briese. Briese, an evangelical Christian, exposed one of Australia's most contentious legal scandals when he told a Senate committee inquiry in 1984 that Lionel Murphy had asked him to influence the trial of Sydney solicitor Morgan Ryan with the words: "What about my little mate?" Murphy was convicted of conspiracy to pervert the course of justice before being cleared on a retrial. Briese, a magistrate from 1982 to 1990, found in his report that Ham and his US organisation responded to the reform push with sackings, bullying and, in some instances, "unbiblical-unethical-unlawful behaviour" towards the Australian ministry that he suspected was intended to send it into bankruptcy. "The overall aim of the actions against Wieland and AiG-Australia was to separate the two ministries, which until then were united," Briese said. Days after the reform letters were received by Ham, Vallorani, who had also written aletter calling for change, was sacked and offered a lucrative payout in exchange for hissilence. Briese, who analysed 600 pages of documents, including emails and letters, said Ham's response to the Australian ministry was more sophisticated and delivered in stages. At first Ham ignored the Australians. Then he is alleged to have quietly undermined Wieland, supported by four of his executives, with the Australian board of the ministry. In late 2005 Ham, according to Briese, unlawfully convinced the Australian board to sign documents "behind the back" of Wieland and his management team that gave virtual control of the Australian ministry and its assets to Ham. Briese said it was apparent the board did not understand what they were signing, but soon after Wieland was suspended from his role as chief executive and the name of the Australian organisation was changed to Creation Ministries International. The sacking caused outcry in Australian creationist circles, where Wieland is regarded as its best public speaker. The board later resigned en masse in embarrassment, handing power back to Wieland. Months later, Ham is alleged to have stopped distributing the Australian-produced Creation magazine that has almost 40,000 subscribers in the US and quietly went about registering its trademark as his own in the US. It had brought in more than $250,000 a year in revenue and threatened the financial viability of the Australian ministry. The status of the magazine in the US is the subject of the Queensland lawsuit, with the Australian ministry claiming Ham has unlawfully stolen its trademark and subscriber list for his own magazine. Also in Briese's report there are claims of a smear campaign being launched against Wieland over the circumstances surrounding his divorce and remarriage a decade ago. The Briese report also talks about the involvement of a John Mackay, a former close associate of Ham, in the campaign against Wieland in Australia. According to the report, Mackay was excommunicated in the 1980s after making allegations of witchcraft and necrophilia against a fellow member in the early days of the ministry in Queensland. It is these sordid allegations, expected to be aired in the civil trial, that Wieland hoped would never become public. But he claims there was no alternative. "We have tried to settle this privately, with arbitration by a Christian judge of their choice, but they have consistently refused," he says. "This is very, very painful for me and everyone associated with the ministries. But it is more than a split, this is an action of one ministry against another." Michael McKenna is a senior writer at The Australian. 'Nuff said? Casey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amethyst Posted September 9, 2008 Share Posted September 9, 2008 Well, I'd personally just toss it. But if you really want good stress relief and have a paper shredder handy, go for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Religion Destructor Posted September 9, 2008 Share Posted September 9, 2008 Put it in the paper shredder. Your dad is fucked up for pushing that shit. No parent should push any form of religious crap on children. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheHammer Posted September 9, 2008 Share Posted September 9, 2008 I would buy him a decent book about evolution. Maybe something by Dan Dennet or Richard Dawkins and make the deal with him that if you read the book he gave you, he has to read the book you gave him. If he agreed, I would read it, debunk it while reading and take notes. If you don't read it, he can see it as some sort of weakness - maybe you're afraid to read it and see the "truth"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwc Posted September 9, 2008 Share Posted September 9, 2008 What's your guys' take on the situation? What is the "spirit" moving you to do? mwc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neon Genesis Posted September 9, 2008 Share Posted September 9, 2008 I would buy him a decent book about evolution. Maybe something by Dan Dennet or Richard Dawkins and make the deal with him that if you read the book he gave you, he has to read the book you gave him. If he agreed, I would read it, debunk it while reading and take notes. If you don't read it, he can see it as some sort of weakness - maybe you're afraid to read it and see the "truth"? I agree with this. It's only fair that if you have to read a book about creationism that your dad should read a book about evolution. If your dad refuses to read a book on evolution, then I would trash the creationist book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
♦ nivek ♦ Posted September 9, 2008 Share Posted September 9, 2008 'bout as *real* as any other comic book.. kL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator florduh Posted September 9, 2008 Super Moderator Share Posted September 9, 2008 My dad gave me a creationist book also. I was 50 years old! I told him it was too late. My education and common sense prevented me from believing fairy tales. He was offended. Never occurred to him that I might be offended as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crazycatlady Posted September 9, 2008 Share Posted September 9, 2008 Just this evening my dad handed me, "The New Answers Book 2" by Ken Ham, who founded answersingenesis.com and The Creation Museum. Other than that, I don't know anything about the guy except that he's a bible literalist and supposedly one of the best defenders of literalism that there is. I personally don't give a rats behind about what he has to say since just skimming through the book reveals more prapoganda that I'm ready for. First thing I noticed was all the cartoon like pictures on almost every page illustrating the bible as "holy" just to make me feel like an idiot in case I forgot that part, but my question is... Should I read it just because I told my dad I would, otherwise feel guilty? Being a recent de-convert, should I hold off until I get my scientific bearings? Or should I just burn it...but I dunno I'm also running out of toilet paper so who knows... Has anyone ever read this book? Its interesting because its the 2nd edition and I've never read the first, I guess my dad just kinda grabbed whatever looked pretty Its worth mentioning that my dad has never-ever read any books on creationism and probably couldn't defend it it aside from what he already knows from the bible. What's your guys' take on the situation? This sounds like a book that should be banished to the bookshelf. That way, you could say that you had just forgotten about it (probably will once it's out of sight). If your father gets really picky about you wanting to read it, I would suggest reading one chapter of that followed by a chapter of "The God Delusion," "God is not Great," etc. Or you could just send "The God Delusion" to the Creation Museum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asimov Posted September 9, 2008 Share Posted September 9, 2008 Well if you want to bring up some points in the book that you might have trouble with we can help you out. I love reading about that shit, it's like heroin. I know every single Creationist claim in existence, and why they're wrong, so if you need help just post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raul Posted September 9, 2008 Share Posted September 9, 2008 Sell it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neon Genesis Posted September 9, 2008 Share Posted September 9, 2008 'bout as *real* as any other comic book.. kL That's an insult to comic books. At least comic books are entertaining to read. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auracle Posted September 9, 2008 Share Posted September 9, 2008 Well, I'd personally just toss it. But if you really want good stress relief and have a paper shredder handy, go for it. Or shred by hand, if you find that physical activity helps you destress Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marke Posted September 10, 2008 Share Posted September 10, 2008 Read it and debunk it. Hand it back with underlining, notes, etc. You will never get him to read a book you offer so extensive notes in the one he thinks is so great is your best weapon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
♦ nivek ♦ Posted September 10, 2008 Share Posted September 10, 2008 Roll it up and Holy Ghost Smoke it.. Betcha you'll see some frackin' COOL COLORS! kL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Denise Posted September 10, 2008 Share Posted September 10, 2008 Rid yourself of all the expectations your religion, family etc put on you... and figure out for yourself if you want to read it or not... and then do what works for you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Centaur Posted September 10, 2008 Share Posted September 10, 2008 HI, These are my anti-creationist reality check YouTube subscriptions. AndromedasWake AronRa beautyintheuniverse cdk007 DonExodus2 patcondell potholer54 Potholer54debunks Thunderf00t I would really recommend AronRa and Thunderfoot, they are both brilliant. I was a creationist (shudder) for 14 years. I became a Xian when I started going out with my (now) ex wife. Her parents are fundy creationist fruitcakes. And I, to my shame, swallowed the rubbish they were spouting. I took years of scientific training and shit it down the toilet, all because I stopped thinking for myself and wanted to fit in with them. What a complete waste of time and energy!. It took years to start thinking for myself again and see what a load of bullshit I was believing and regurgitating. Bitter and twisted about it? Who, me? My vote is for returning the book and gently explaining that it has no basis in reality. Or maybe returning the favour with a general science book on the history of evolutionary research. Not that it is likely to be read and appreciated:-( Cheers Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wonderingbread Posted September 10, 2008 Author Share Posted September 10, 2008 Oh my quite a few responses! I wish I had enough motivation to responed to everyone here, which is still far greater than the motivation I have to read this book.. But I've decided to read most of it and take notes. Hopefully it leads to something better than a third edition from my dad. But I will be sure to rip it into shreds afterwards for mine and everyone else's pleasure. Oh and thanks for the list Black Centaur. I've already watched most of Thunderfoot's work and he's great. Love em. Asimov, I'm planning on ripping into this comic book pretty soon so I'll just post or messege with any questions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asimov Posted September 10, 2008 Share Posted September 10, 2008 Asimov, I'm planning on ripping into this comic book pretty soon so I'll just post or messege with any questions. Sweet, I'm always happy to share any resources I have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShackledNoMore Posted September 10, 2008 Share Posted September 10, 2008 Chances are you will be given and asked to read many more apologetic books. I know I was. I felt exactly as you and read a number of them before I put a stop to reading a book just because someone gave it to me. It truly is a matter of personal preference whether to read them or not, and I think you will find the book easily debunked (in a similar vein, the advice some gave to also read credible science based books is right on target). I don't think it can hurt: under critical scrutiny it illustrates how flimsy what you left behind was, and in that sense it can be a good thing. It is also unreasonable for xians to barrage you with creationist books, apologetics, etc., and expect you to read them all. The first time somebody hands you such a book you do not want to read, you should not even be fleetingly hesitant to toss, burn, or shred it, whichever you prefer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jedah Posted September 10, 2008 Share Posted September 10, 2008 Ken Ham :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: Read it for that. But really, were all ( or most of us anyways ) quite familiar with Ken's wonderful little site. Although it is not intended to be, AIG is a great archive of PRATT's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Posted September 10, 2008 Share Posted September 10, 2008 I say keep it for a laugh. I have one of his books, 'Did Adam Have a Belly Button and other tough questions about the Bible'. I must say, it is side splittling hilarious. Honestly, i can't see how anyone can take Ken Ham seriously. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Posted September 10, 2008 Share Posted September 10, 2008 I also recommend this site. http://www.noanswersingenesis.org.au/ It is devoted to countering his site. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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