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R. S. Martin

If People Are Willing To Suffer Only For The Truth...

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Well, I don't know if they were atheists but it was for the right not to be religious according to one of the videos Brother Jeff posted on his site.

 

See the third video on A Brief History of Disbelief. In order to keep their journal Republican in circulation, these people spent a cumulative total of 200 years in jail. The account of this case starts about 14 minutes into the video and is two or three minutes long.

 

150 people served jail sentences for that journal. This was in England about 1820. They were held by a Christian government.

 

If it's true, as Christians love to say with reference to their own martyrs, that people are willing to suffer only for the truth...

 

(added by Ouroboros)

Updated links:

Video 1

Video 2

Video 3

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I heard about this a while back, and I couldn't find any references recently while searching. Thanks RSM. I pinned this thread for easy access for the future. :thanks:

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You're welcome, Hans. I never knew such a thing ever happened. I posted it on three forums. This should increase traffic to Brother Jeff's site into the bargain. How do you like that, Jeff? As if I'd have to ask. :wicked:

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You're welcome, Hans. I never knew such a thing ever happened. I posted it on three forums. This should increase traffic to Brother Jeff's site into the bargain. How do you like that, Jeff? As if I'd have to ask. :wicked:

That's awesome, Sister Ruby! Thanks! Glory! :woohoo:

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This three-part video series by Jonathan Miller, "A Brief History of Disbelief," can now be viewed at the following links:

Each video is about 58 minutes long. Miller covers many great thinkers of the past several thousand years of Western history. The story about the people in England going to jail for the right to publish their secular journal is only one of many human interest stories Miller uses to show the "History of Disbelief," or how atheism rose out of Christianity.

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i simply typed in www.torturedforatheism.com/

There's no website like that.

 

to view the story of their awful torture

them i typed in

http://www.torturedforchrist.com/

So I guess you were being sarcastic? What's your point?

 

There has been Muslims, Jews, Greeks, Russians, Americans, Chines, Atheists, Christians (of many different kinds), Catholics, xyz-ists, you name it, who has been tortured. The point is: A belief does not become true nor is it validated just because you have martyrs. A martyr only means that the person who suffers do believe what he believes, and won't change his mind. So... all those tortured and martyred Christians in the past, does not make a True Christianity™.

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i simply typed in www.torturedforatheism.com/

to view the story of their awful torture

them i typed in

http://www.torturedforchrist.com/

 

Quite a smart aleck, aren't you, child like faith? Children readily follow and are easily manipulated by those in authority. You state on your profile that you are an older christian, a Lutheran. Perhaps it is time for you to put aside your childish ways. 1Cor 13:11

 

torturedforatheism.com = no such website (as if you didn't know)

 

torturedforchrist.com = the story of Richard Wurmbrand (again, as if you didn't know) Coincidentally, he falls into Wiki's category of Romanian Lutherans.

 

Why don't you investigate a little further....

 

You might want to start with a thorough, objective, mature reading of your own bible sans god-goggles. Then, check out the following links where you can see a few examples of how xtians use bible-god as their role model.

 

http://www.corvalliscommunitypages.com/Eur...ure_session.htm

 

http://www.paralumun.com/inquisition.htm

 

http://history.howstuffworks.com/european-...nquisition3.htm

 

http://www.boston.com/news/local/articles_...equent_chu.html

 

:49:

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See the third video on A Brief History of Disbelief. In order to keep their journal Republican in circulation, these people spent a cumulative total of 200 years in jail. The account of this case starts about 14 minutes into the video and is two or three minutes long.

 

Thank you for posting this, Ruby. I just watched the above referenced section and am looking forward to watching the rest of the series this week.

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Looks like child like faith has proved himself to be a "true Xtian" by lying for Christ.

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See the third video on A Brief History of Disbelief. In order to keep their journal Republican in circulation, these people spent a cumulative total of 200 years in jail. The account of this case starts about 14 minutes into the video and is two or three minutes long.

 

Thank you for posting this, Ruby. I just watched the above referenced section and am looking forward to watching the rest of the series this week.

 

 

 

You're welcome.

 

I see this happening time and again. Christians find a video they wish to mock so they link to it. I look it up and lo and behold! it is a very educational movie for the atheist side of the story. In this way I've learned so MUCH that I would not have found otherwise.

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Not a bad video.

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Hmm, I honestly think I'd just lie and say "Yeah, sure I believe in jesus" than risk what time I have on earth in prison.

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Guest Wayne Buchanan

There has been Muslims, Jews, Greeks, Russians, Americans, Chines, Atheists, Christians (of many different kinds), Catholics, xyz-ists, you name it, who has been tortured. The point is: A belief does not become true nor is it validated just because you have martyrs. A martyr only means that the person who suffers do believe what he believes, and won't change his mind. So... all those tortured and martyred Christians in the past, does not make a True Christianity.

 

It is true the enduring torture for belief does not make it true. Like you said, all it shows is that those who endured it without relenting truly believed what they believed. Apparently it is easy to find record of both Christians and atheists that were killed or tortured for what they believed. What you said is the point, though. They believed it.

 

If someone believed Christianity, something has to have caused this belief. The disciples who witnessed and later on recorded the miracles of Christ, had these miracles to base their belief on. Jesus walked on water. He caused the blind to see and the deaf to hear. He raised the dead. He was raised from the dead. That is plenty of evidence to convince someone that something was going on with this guy. Jesus also claimed to be God. Ok, that would explain why He could do all of this and empower others to do the same. Subsequent generations have these and other accounts that give them faith that Christianity is true.

 

If someone believed that no god exists, again something must have caused this belief. As I look around at the many forum posts, it seems that a lot of the reasons that people have for believing that no god exists it that they were hurt in some way. People claiming to be Christians did wrong to them. The doctrine of the faith was something they could not accept. That is to be expected on an exchristian website. These do seem to be the majority of reasons I encounter outside of these forums as well, though. There are a lot of people that claim to be Christian that are not, though, and there are a lot of Christians that mess up and do not act as they should. Also, the doctrines, such as hell, that seem to offend so many do so because they are not understood. Hell is a place for those who have transgressed the Law of God. God will not abide lawbreakers. The punishment is removal of them from Him forever. That is hell. So, how is God loving in that? He made a way to Himself. He took the punishment. That way those who accept it can avoid this removal and be with Him.

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As I look around at the many forum posts, it seems that a lot of the reasons that people have for believing that no god exists it that they were hurt in some way.

 

 

Fail - try again.

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If someone believed that no god exists, again something must have caused this belief. As I look around at the many forum posts, it seems that a lot of the reasons that people have for believing that no god exists it that they were hurt in some way. People claiming to be Christians did wrong to them.

Not in my case, and not in many other cases I've read.

 

Sure, some of them, but to make a hasty generalization like that... not good.

 

In my opinion, most Christians I've met believe because they're scared of Hell. So it must be true that all Christians believe only because they scared.

 

The doctrine of the faith was something they could not accept.

You have a very wrong view of us.

 

I was Christian for 30 years.

 

I grew up in a fully Christian home.

 

Every relative I have are Christians.

 

I'm the first non-believer, and it took 30 years to get there.

 

I converted when I was 7. Spoke in tongue at 12. Read the Bible through-and-through in a year. Went to Bible school. Missions trips. Knocked on doors. Evangelized cities. Spent half of the week doing voluntary work at church. And I did all this because I couldn't accept the doctrine of faith? Is this some kind of sick joke?

 

That is to be expected on an exchristian website. These do seem to be the majority of reasons I encounter outside of these forums as well, though. There are a lot of people that claim to be Christian that are not, though, and there are a lot of Christians that mess up and do not act as they should. Also, the doctrines, such as hell, that seem to offend so many do so because they are not understood. Hell is a place for those who have transgressed the Law of God. God will not abide lawbreakers. The punishment is removal of them from Him forever. That is hell. So, how is God loving in that? He made a way to Himself. He took the punishment. That way those who accept it can avoid this removal and be with Him.

Hell is bad theology. You don't know who is going there and who is not. You might end up there because you didn't believe in Allah.

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If someone believed Christianity, something has to have caused this belief. The disciples who witnessed and later on recorded the miracles of Christ, had these miracles to base their belief on. Jesus walked on water. He caused the blind to see and the deaf to hear. He raised the dead. He was raised from the dead. That is plenty of evidence to convince someone that something was going on with this guy. Jesus also claimed to be God. Ok, that would explain why He could do all of this and empower others to do the same. Subsequent generations have these and other accounts that give them faith that Christianity is true.

 

It is not "evidence". These are stories written many years after the alleged events. You could also say "If someone believed in Hinduism, Buddhism, The Great Spirit, etc., something has to have caused this belief" The reasons are as varied as the different people who hold these beliefs. I feel free to doubt that most of the Christians believe, or call themselves Christians, because of the reason you state.

 

As I look around at the many forum posts, it seems that a lot of the reasons that people have for believing that no god exists it that they were hurt in some way.

 

That would be a wrong impression. Many of us analyzed the Christian doctrine and faith and found it to be false.

 

Also, the doctrines, such as hell, that seem to offend so many do so because they are not understood. Hell is a place for those who have transgressed the Law of God. God will not abide lawbreakers. The punishment is removal of them from Him forever. That is hell. So, how is God loving in that? He made a way to Himself. He took the punishment. That way those who accept it can avoid this removal and be with Him.

 

Its interesting to me that you think we somehow have misunderstood or don't quite grasp this idea of hell. The thing is, we know it all too well. That is NOT love. It is more like a protection racket.

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If someone believed Christianity, something has to have caused this belief. The disciples who witnessed and later on recorded the miracles of Christ, had these miracles to base their belief on. Jesus walked on water. He caused the blind to see and the deaf to hear. He raised the dead. He was raised from the dead. That is plenty of evidence to convince someone that something was going on with this guy. Jesus also claimed to be God. Ok, that would explain why He could do all of this and empower others to do the same. Subsequent generations have these and other accounts that give them faith that Christianity is true.

Sorry, but none of that is historical. The synoptics were written after Paul's letters - a man who never met Jesus and had no clue as to his teachings. What the NT is a record of stories about a person from various traditions -- they are not eye witness accounts.

 

The only evidence you have is evidence of story-telling and religious belief, not empirical evidence of Jesus defying physics by walking on water, changing water into wine, or hopping skipping and jumping as a three day dead man.

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If someone believed Christianity, something has to have caused this belief. The disciples who witnessed and later on recorded the miracles of Christ, had these miracles to base their belief on. Jesus walked on water. He caused the blind to see and the deaf to hear. He raised the dead. He was raised from the dead. That is plenty of evidence to convince someone that something was going on with this guy. Jesus also claimed to be God. Ok, that would explain why He could do all of this and empower others to do the same. Subsequent generations have these and other accounts that give them faith that Christianity is true.

Sorry, but none of that is historical. The synoptics were written after Paul's letters - a man who never met Jesus and had no clue as to his teachings. What the NT is a record of stories about a person from various traditions -- they are not eye witness accounts.

 

The only evidence you have is evidence of story-telling and religious belief, not empirical evidence of Jesus defying physics by walking on water, changing water into wine, or hopping skipping and jumping as a three day dead man.

I love the voice of reason arising from the quicksand!

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This series of videos is a good look at whether we can be sure the "disciples died for their faith" of not (on the whole we can't"

 

Also re. atheist martyrs, there are probably fewer becuase an atheist doesn't think he's got any reward (or anything at all) to look forward to if he gets himself killed - and in many past historical periods in the West if you openly denied the existence of God I don't think you would have lasted long

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There has been Muslims, Jews, Greeks, Russians, Americans, Chines, Atheists, Christians (of many different kinds), Catholics, xyz-ists, you name it, who has been tortured. The point is: A belief does not become true nor is it validated just because you have martyrs. A martyr only means that the person who suffers do believe what he believes, and won't change his mind. So... all those tortured and martyred Christians in the past, does not make a True Christianity™.

 

It is true the enduring torture for belief does not make it true. Like you said, all it shows is that those who endured it without relenting truly believed what they believed. Apparently it is easy to find record of both Christians and atheists that were killed or tortured for what they believed. What you said is the point, though. They believed it.

 

If someone believed Christianity, something has to have caused this belief.

 

And if someone believes Islam, Mormonism, Buddhism, etc, or no religious belief, then something caused the belief/nonbelief.

 

The disciples who witnessed and later on recorded the miracles of Christ, had these miracles to base their belief on. Jesus walked on water. He caused the blind to see and the deaf to hear. He raised the dead. He was raised from the dead. That is plenty of evidence to convince someone that something was going on with this guy. Jesus also claimed to be God. Ok, that would explain why He could do all of this and empower others to do the same. Subsequent generations have these and other accounts that give them faith that Christianity is true.

 

BUZZ! Wrong answer. These assertions ASSUME that the biblical writings are accurate, but they are far from it.

 

If someone believed that no god exists, again something must have caused this belief.

 

Of course.

 

As I look around at the many forum posts, it seems that a lot of the reasons that people have for believing that no god exists it that they were hurt in some way. People claiming to be Christians did wrong to them. The doctrine of the faith was something they could not accept. That is to be expected on an exchristian website. These do seem to be the majority of reasons I encounter outside of these forums as well, though.

 

BUZZ! Wrong answer again. Sure, there are some like that, as we all have different reasons for arriving where we are. However, to use the experiences of some to broadbrush nonbelievers as a whole is just as stupid as it would be for us to use the experiences of some christians to broadbrush all christians.

 

For your information, I was NOT hurt by christians or the church, I did NOT have christians do wrong to me, and I DID accept the faith for MANY years. I was just as firm a believer as anyone could possibly be, I had the personal experiences, thought I was "washed in the blood" and "born again by the Holy Spirit," and I taught bible studies and adult Sunday school classes.

 

I studied the bible to "grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ" and to "always be prepared to give anyone an answer." To me, the bible was the perfect word of God, and when I read it I thought I was reading God's communication with mankind. I spent YEARS studying the bible from this very solid christian mindset.

 

But then something happened. The more I studied, the more I realized that the bible is NOT what I had been told over and over and over again that it was. A parallel study of the gospels revealed that there are serious, irreconcilable contradictions between them. But the inerrant word of god wasn't supposed to contradict itself, was it? Inerrancy was shattered, but I still considered it possible that there may be some truth to christianity.

 

Then a study of the gospels' claims of fulfilled prophecy, in which I took a much closer look at the original OT texts, made me realize that NT authors took OT verses COMPLETELY OUT OF CONTEXT in order to FABRICATE prophetic fulfillments! They sometimes even reworded the OT verses in order to make them fit, some of the claimed prophecies weren't actually prophecies at all, and on at least one occasion a NT author made up a prophecy that doesn't appear anywhere in the OT. If these people really had a true story worth believing, then WHY would they resort to such underhanded tactics?

 

So you see, my friend, your attempt to brand nonbelievers as hurt little people without real understanding is just plain WRONG. Sure, some left the faith because of being hurt, but that doesn't necessarily mean that they were wrong to leave the faith. And others of us left for BIBLE reasons, as I've mentioned in my account.

 

In fact, I did NOT WANT to leave christianity. It was all I knew, it was what I had based my life on. Realizing that christianity wasn't true was excruciatingly painful because I had to come to grips with the fact that what I had believed for most of my life was nothing more than a LIE. I did not leave the faith because of being hurt, I was hurt because I had to leave the faith. The reasons for christianity not being true came first, and I would not be the least bit surprised if that is also true of a lot of the ones that you have assumed left because of being hurt.

 

There are a lot of people that claim to be Christian that are not, though,

 

There are a lot of people who claim to be Muslim, Buddhist, Hindu, Mormon, etc, that are not, though.

 

Oh, wait, all those people really are what they say, aren't they? But some "Christians" aren't christians, huh? Yeah, I used to believe that exact same nonsense, but it's nonsense nonetheless. The majority of Americans believe christianity to some degree or other, regardless of whether or not they fit your particular mold of what a True ChristianTM should be. Besides, if True ChristianTM means one who has the Holy SpiritTM living inside, then there is no such thing as a True ChristianTM, because it's MAKE-BELIEVE.

 

and there are a lot of Christians that mess up and do not act as they should.

 

Yet we're supposed to believe that the Holy SpiritTM changes believers, huh?

 

Also, the doctrines, such as hell, that seem to offend so many do so because they are not understood. Hell is a place for those who have transgressed the Law of God. God will not abide lawbreakers. The punishment is removal of them from Him forever. That is hell.

 

No, hell doesn't offend because of not being understood, but rather hell (or "lake of fire," to be more accurate, since hell is NOT the "lake of fire" in the bible) offends because it is SADISTIC and completely irrational. But, no biggie, it's not real anyway.

 

Besides, if hell is a place for "lawbreakers," what about those christians that you just said "do not act as they should"? Do they go to hell for being "lawbreakers"?

 

So, how is God loving in that? He made a way to Himself. He took the punishment. That way those who accept it can avoid this removal and be with Him.

 

Yeah, a make-believe resolution to a make-believe problem. Hell doesn't exist, nor does salvation from it. Period. It's all mythology, my friend. It's all based on a SERIOUSLY FLAWED book, and once one breaks away from the mindwarp of religious indoctrination, it becomes obvious that the whole belief system of christianity is just plain ABSURD.

 

Again, I did not abandon my faith because of being hurt. In fact, I would have to be STUPID to do that! If all that christian stuff was true and I believed it, then why in the world would I sacrifice myself in an eternal lake of fire just because someone hurt me? Damn, that would be stupid, and it's a bit insulting when christians make such ridiculous insinuations.

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Again, I did not abandon my faith because of being hurt. In fact, I would have to be STUPID to do that! If all that christian stuff was true and I believed it, then why in the world would I sacrifice myself in an eternal lake of fire just because someone hurt me? Damn, that would be stupid, and it's a bit insulting when christians make such ridiculous insinuations.

 

Precisely. Especially for those of us who did suffer much ridicule inside the church but "suffered gladly" because HE also suffered for us. No, Christianity is tailor-made to accommodate suffering and injustice at the hands of authority figures. If your enemies hurt you, you have to turn the other cheek. If your friends hurt you, you have to forgive them. If your elders hurt you, you have to respect them anyway. If your church hurts you, you must bear the weakness of your brethren in patience. If life (God) hurts you, your faith is being tested. No matter what adversity afflicts you, it will make you stronger. Damn! You're not allowed to complain even if you're being eaten alive because someone somewhere is sure to be having a tougher lot than you. So no. One does not leave the Christian religion because of being hurt.

 

I think certain hurtful behaviour may at times lend theological insight to certain individuals so they see that the promises of God's love in the Bible and sermons and Christianity fall too far short for an almighty God. In that way, it might be said that being hurt can be the cause of leaving. However, I have had people tell me I left because I was hurt--people who had heard only my one personal story. THEY INVENTED IT.

 

Apparently, it is what Christians want to believe. It is an easy idea for them to live with. Christians can think of the apostate: They were just to weak and immature to handle being hurt/rejected so they rejected/hurt God by leaving Christendom.

 

Instead of "God" read "Christian." In my personal experience, it is those who remain in the church who feel hurt and rejected. It showed in the anger and persecution they inflicted on me.

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If a non-believer values the only life he has and believes in, which is in this world, i don't see the incentive of being a martyr for his beliefs. He can maximise his well-being by hiding his beliefs in such a historic setting.

There is no great commission for a non-believer to spread the 'word of atheism', and no pious justification to feel that he is going to be rewarded for his stance in the afterlife.

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I think certain hurtful behaviour may at times lend theological insight to certain individuals so they see that the promises of God's love in the Bible and sermons and Christianity fall too far short for an almighty God. In that way, it might be said that being hurt can be the cause of leaving.

 

Quite true. In those cases, I would say that the hurtful behavior got the mental wheels turning but was not specifically the cause of leaving. The cause of leaving was the bible and christianity falling short of their claims, thus showing them to be untrue. Many christians conveniently just look at the initial hurtful behavior and the final rejection of the faith, but completely ignore all the fruitful contemplating that went on in-between.

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!New and Better Links!

It seems Jonathan Miller removed two of the original videos and replaced them with others. I will post all three links and hope they will work for a long time to come.

 

Video 1

Video 2

Video 3

 

Just now, before posting them, I watched them again. The part I mention in the OP is in the third video, maybe about fifteen minutes in from the beginning--I did not note the exact point.

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