People Who Believe In Jesus But Claim To Not Be Christians

[Neon Genesis]

Is it just me or is there anyone else seriously getting annoyed by these people who come to ex-c saying that they believe in Jesus and that the bible is true but claim to somehow magically not be Christians at the same time? I just can't debate with these people because they're even more delusional and frustrating to debate with than your average xtian. It's like they they think that because they're not a member of a Baptist or Pentecostal denomination and don't go to church three times a week but still believe in Jesus, that suddenly they aren't Christians anymore and they act like they know how we feel. They try to start off nice but when they find out we think their baseless beliefs are just as batshit insane as the rest, you know they're going to get pissy at us for daring not to believe them without evidence and they keep insisting they aren't Christians when it's clear as rain to everyone else that they are. I just don't understand these people. Why do they pretend to be something they aren't? It's like they think Christians are only people who go to church and are obsessed with tithing and they think that because they don't believe in that that they deserve to not be lumped in with the rest of the xtians even if they still have same crazy beliefs. Why don't they just admit they're Christians and be done with it when everyone else can see through their games? I just don't get what's up with these people like "The Way" we seem to be getting a lot of lately. Is this some sort of new fad on the Internet?

[jackbauer]

I think some are either struggling with what they really believe and are looking for honest answers apart from the church or really do have views different from the church (they don't believe in hell). Honestly, I have no qualms with them

 

But when people come on here, claiming not to be Christian or part of religion, yet post the same apologetic arguements, with the same judgmental attitude, and preaching the same scripture, I have to role my eyes. A couple of years ago, I would have fallen for that hook, line, and sinker, but now, it's obvious what's going on. They are just trying to act as if they agree with us so they can persuade us to come back. This is far from the first time I've heard people trying to present 'true Christianity' to me and a lot of the time, what they are selling is even wackier than what they are criticizing.

[mwc]

I think this is part of the "home church" movement. In that "churches" (ie. an actual sect like Baptist, Lutheran, Catholic, etc.) are "corrupt" from the "original." So they take a quick peek in the bible and low and behold they think "The Way" is that original. Sadly "The Way" is more a description than a name (and should probably be lowercase "the way" and odds are was never used to describe any jesus movement...read Acts it's really quite ambiguous and the translation makes all the difference). So when I say "home church" it's just to emphasize this whole movement away from the larger churches into these smaller groups that are supposed to be like the original churches that jesus, Paul or the other apostles would have formed. It's a delusion that they're getting "back to basics."

 

Anyhow, so by doing all this they're unchurched but still believers in jesus. They refuse the name xian because they think it's part of the Catholic orthodox "corruption" but the Acts mentions the name came along in Antioch long before the fathers formed the whole idea of Catholic. So the book that describes "the way" and also brings "christianity" is used to accept the former and deny the latter since the latter has been "abused" and is a later term in their mind. Never mind it means to be "like christ" or as some fathers hinted at it hints at "to be excellent [in conduct]." I can see why modern xians would run from these things with all their strength to embrace the idea that they alone walk the very special (narrow) path that has been revealed to them and those like them. Those other things are difficult but the secret path makes you feel special.

 

mwc

[TheHammer]

I agree with Jack on this one. However, there were originally groups of Jesus-believers who were nothing like Christians are. Some were, for instance, Gnostics and were viewed by mainstream Christianity as something very very dangerous, and yet their teachings were much more tolerant of other people than Christianity is. They even believed that men and women were equal!

[Jeff H]

Well, I had similar sentiments a couple years back. I was sick of all the bickering about gay marriage up here in Canada, plus the abortion debate, plus the other "hot-button issues" that Christians argue about, and I got the idea that all these arguments were giving Christians a bad name (no, really?). I briefly toyed with the idea of trying to find a different name so that I could distance myself from the negative stereotype that had started to surround the term "Christian". I just wanted something like "Jesus-follower" or something like that so that I could let people know that I wasn't a ridiculous religious bigot who told more about what they didn't like than about what they did. So I kind of understand the sentiment, but looking back....it's kind of a stupid idea. Christian = Christ-follower. It's just the term that your specific set of beliefs is given to distinguish it from others. Coming up with fancy new ones just makes you look like a pretentious idiot.

[Neon Genesis]

I think some are either struggling with what they really believe and are looking for honest answers apart from the church or really do have views different from the church (they don't believe in hell). Honestly, I have no qualms with them

 

But when people come on here, claiming not to be Christian or part of religion, yet post the same apologetic arguements, with the same judgmental attitude, and preaching the same scripture, I have to role my eyes. A couple of years ago, I would have fallen for that hook, line, and sinker, but now, it's obvious what's going on. They are just trying to act as if they agree with us so they can persuade us to come back. This is far from the first time I've heard people trying to present 'true Christianity' to me and a lot of the time, what they are selling is even wackier than what they are criticizing.

I don't mind the first part of people so much and I respect them a lot, actually. It's the second type of people you mention that think that because they've left the church that they're somehow the same as an ex-Christian yet they still haven't left behind the same immoral and dogmatic teachings of the church and are still Christians as much as they would like to deny it. Also, I find these kind of xtians to be offensive because if this is a movement, then it's like a whole movement dedicated to telling us we were never true believers only in a whole round-about pointless way.

[jackbauer]

I think this is part of the "home church" movement. In that "churches" (ie. an actual sect like Baptist, Lutheran, Catholic, etc.) are "corrupt" from the "original." So they take a quick peek in the bible and low and behold they think "The Way" is that original. Sadly "The Way" is more a description than a name (and should probably be lowercase "the way" and odds are was never used to describe any jesus movement...read Acts it's really quite ambiguous and the translation makes all the difference). So when I say "home church" it's just to emphasize this whole movement away from the larger churches into these smaller groups that are supposed to be like the original churches that jesus, Paul or the other apostles would have formed. It's a delusion that they're getting "back to basics."

 

Anyhow, so by doing all this they're unchurched but still believers in jesus. They refuse the name xian because they think it's part of the Catholic orthodox "corruption" but the Acts mentions the name came along in Antioch long before the fathers formed the whole idea of Catholic. So the book that describes "the way" and also brings "christianity" is used to accept the former and deny the latter since the latter has been "abused" and is a later term in their mind. Never mind it means to be "like christ" or as some fathers hinted at it hints at "to be excellent [in conduct]." I can see why modern xians would run from these things with all their strength to embrace the idea that they alone walk the very special (narrow) path that has been revealed to them and those like them. Those other things are difficult but the secret path makes you feel special.

 

mwc

 

You said it. I also think it goes under the 'it's not a religion, it's a relationship' arguement. They know (or atleast assume) that a lot of us had major issues with the church and some of it's teachings so they say hey! Jesus hated religion too and went against the all those man made rules. This had actually worked at first for me because I had assumed all the churches were just following the 'letter of the law' and not the 'spirit of the law' that Jesus talked about. It's all about interprating it differently. God doesn't send anyone to hell, they choose to go there and hell isn't really fire and brimstone, it's 'seperation from god', and worshiping god doesn't mean jumping up a down, it means to serve others. Actually, this DID help for someone who would have settled for anything other than pentecoastalism or calvinism. But it was still devoting your life to something that they may or may not be true and there was still the same 'we're right and they're wrong' attitude. It's not like even this 'true Christianity' was letting me live my life without worrying about stuff I have no knowlage of.

[centauri]

Is it just me or is there anyone else seriously getting annoyed by these people who come to ex-c saying that they believe in Jesus and that the bible is true but claim to somehow magically not be Christians at the same time?

 

In a way, these folks remind me of many New-Agers.

The New Age movement is filled to the brim with people that consider themselves to be "lightworkers" and "ascending masters".

They will often invoke Jesus into their spiritual ramblings in order to give them credibility and get people to pay attention to them.

By using "Jesus" and selected Bible quotes, they create a hybrid non-Christian spiritual doctrine that includes some traditional Christian themes.

The "real" Jesus is often called "Sanada" by these folks.

He's an ascended master that was the basis for the Jesus story.

Some gurus claim he was a "Star Child" sent to awaken humanity.

They also use phrases like "Christ Consciousness" and other fluffy rhetoric as part of their performance.

 

I know one fellow(metaphysical guru) that constantly blabbers about Star Kids and how these little messiahs being born today will usher in a great shift and ascension of humanity.

(You see, the children born today are of a higher "vibration" than anyone else and they will produce magical changes for humanity.)

He often throws Jesus and selected New Testament quotes into his channeled messages to bolster the material.

Like so many other New-Agers, he's also been preaching this stuff for over 15 years, always claiming that the great shift is just around the next bend in the road. The next bend never actually arrives however.

It's just another version of the "Jesus is coming soon" routine.

Like traditional Christians, these people have a Jesus fetish, and in my opinion they need to take that neurotic pacifer out of their mouths and act like responsible adults, or at least keep their fantasies to themselves instead of trying to spread the manure over the entire earth.

[florduh]

Yep, the current breed of non-Christian Christians is growing. Guess it's about time for another Reformation.

 

Since the Bible makes no sense and is indefensible from a rational standpoint, there is never a shortage of new and "correct" interpretation.

 

Millions of other followers never got it right in two thousand years, but these morons are vain enough to think they have figured it out.

 

Unfortunately, they also feel the need to share this great wisdom.

[R. S. Martin]

At least now I know you're not ranting about me. My take on Jesus is much more positive than for many people here but I never had the total church thing so many of you did. I think that may be what makes some of the difference. I found in him a mentor like figure. I didn't have access to other classical literature but I had access to the Bible. Jesus was also rejected by his family--at least according to some versions of the story. That was a real consolation to me.

 

Anyway, I see you're not talking about people like me who might be called Christian atheists because we like the Jesus story but not in a religious way, i.e. we don't think he's god or a savior. You're talking about people who like Jesus in a religious way but don't want to be called Christians but they want to convert us. UGH!

 

I'm not asking anyone to convert to Jesus devoteeism anymore than I'm asking anyone to convert to Socrates devoteeism. Neon, if they really think of themselves as exChristians but want to express spirituality, how about sending them to the ExChristian Spirituality forum? We'll find out how comfortable they are with our Pagans and Buddhists, etc. who practice some kind of spirituality. I think exC has strict rules against preaching and evangelizing; if anyone trespasses on this we can report it. I guess, my idea is if they want to be taken as exChristians they should to be willing to accept the identity of exChristian membership on these forums.

 

I have a contact whom I think would approximately fit your description though he doesn't go by that name. He looked at these forums but said it's not his cup of tea. He's a much older person, retired. Younger people might not be this insightful or discerning; I dunno. I might not have encountered the person you talked to--can't think of the name anyway. I talked with orlano but that person deconverted from that type of religion.

[Llwellyn]

If you look at it with "memetic" analysis, you could make these observations:

 

The Christian meme has discovered that certain people have an immunity defense against what is known as "Christianity." So, as a means of spreading itself and flying under the radar, it identities itself in a different manner, as a "relationship" and as a "way" rather than as a religion. In this manner, it hopes to successfully infect those people who have already protected themselves against Christianity. As an example of this new strategy for conquering minds, you can visit the website www.notreligion.com

 

This new infectious strategy is likely to be successful only to people who don't have robust reasons for rejecting Christianity. For those people who have rejected Christianity only because they see that Christianity has a bad reputation and don't like to be laughed at by their atheist friends for being a "Christian," this offers them the benefit of saying: "But I'm not one of those judgmental, close-minded Christians, I am a Christ-follower."

 

But most of us on this board have a more vigorous immune defense against Christianity and can identify the Christian meme for what it is, despite what it calls itself. We realize that the Christian system is obnocxious and harmful in whatever form it comes, and cannot be reformed. And we know that anywhere Jesus goes -- Christianity and foul-mindedness will follow.

[R. S. Martin]

Llwellyn, I looked at that link. I don't know what is unChristian about them. They look to me like a regular Christian church--Jesus will solve all your problems, come here to us and let us help you. BTW, there will be an offering collection. (I didn't see that but I can just hear the announcement.)

 

Have you seen The Center for Progressive Christianity? I think it's 8 Points are somewhat less stringent or blatant than regular churches (though I didn't study them in depth), hence "progressive."

[jackbauer]

Yeah, I looked at that site and it's the same evangelism only it's online. There is absolutly nothing 'notreligious' about it. Same old step by step formula for how salvation is supposed to work and same 'relationship' excuse as always.

[Llwellyn]

Yeah, I looked at that site and it's the same evangelism only it's online. There is absolutly nothing 'notreligious' about it. Same old step by step formula for how salvation is supposed to work and same 'relationship' excuse as always.

 

Well, that's kind of the point, this thing that is touted as "not religion." is simply the same old claptrap. Jesus, the Bible, and the belief -system come together as a package deal. You can't have one without the others. Even if someone tells you: "I have Jesus but not the religion," it's difficult to believe, because the others will follow. For, what can they know about Jesus apart from these dusty religious texts? And what is their "Jesus belief" if it is not a religion? And even if they don't follow closely or are very attenuated -- what then? It's still a kind of hero-worship that they are trying to convert you towards. They are planting "Christianity light" that will grow up to be "Christianity heavy."

[Neon Genesis]

Anyway, I see you're not talking about people like me who might be called Christian atheists because we like the Jesus story but not in a religious way, i.e. we don't think he's god or a savior. You're talking about people who like Jesus in a religious way but don't want to be called Christians but they want to convert us. UGH!

 

I'm not asking anyone to convert to Jesus devoteeism anymore than I'm asking anyone to convert to Socrates devoteeism. Neon, if they really think of themselves as exChristians but want to express spirituality, how about sending them to the ExChristian Spirituality forum? We'll find out how comfortable they are with our Pagans and Buddhists, etc. who practice some kind of spirituality. I think exC has strict rules against preaching and evangelizing; if anyone trespasses on this we can report it. I guess, my idea is if they want to be taken as exChristians they should to be willing to accept the identity of exChristian membership on these forums.

The xtians I'm talking about are xtians like Been There Done That and Anders Branderud who claim to not be Christians but followers of Jesus at the same time yet I can't tell that there's any great difference between them and other Christians. Anders takes it one step further and claims to not worship Jesus but Yeshua, as if they're somehow two different people. I think there was one of these types of xtians that did post in the ex-christian spirituality forum once. I think it was in a thread about whether or not Jesus was a historical figure or just a myth. I can't remember what their username was or what thread it was, but I seem to remember them debating with Hans and claiming that the word Christian isn't in the bible. It just seems like we've been getting a lot of these types of xtians lately.

[jackbauer]

Llwellyn, I looked at that link. I don't know what is unChristian about them. They look to me like a regular Christian church--Jesus will solve all your problems, come here to us and let us help you. BTW, there will be an offering collection. (I didn't see that but I can just hear the announcement.)

 

Have you seen The Center for Progressive Christianity? I think it's 8 Points are somewhat less stringent or blatant than regular churches (though I didn't study them in depth), hence "progressive."

 

Wow, I have to say, that was honestly a breath of fresh air. Seriously. They aren't saying their version is the 'one and only truth' and making others feel lesser than them over having doubts or not being 'spiritual' enough. Unlike these other 'we're not like those other Christians' sites, this one actually quesioned the REAL issues of the faith like having to put all your faith in Jesus to be saved. They seem more concerned about doing good for your fellow humans than religious dogma.

[orlando]

Anders takes it one step further and claims to not worship Jesus but Yeshua, as if they're somehow two different people.

 

 

I find it a mildly irritating when some people insist on saying Yeshua ben Joseph or something instead of the usual "Jesus" as if to prove they have some special insight into the original teacher's message

[Spiderwire]

Very interesting thread. I've enjoyed the analysis and the reading very much. You guys always blow me away with your thoughts and ideas.

 

As for my take on it, I can't help but think it ties into an alleged quote from Ghandi - "I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians. They are so unlike your Christ."

 

Square One: One can call it what they like, but to follow Christ and to deny the Bible is a direct contradiction. One cannot exist without the other. To choose one and leave the other demonstrates a supreme dichotomy and one who would deceive themselves in a manner of such magnitude certainly wouldn't be an individual whom I'd take advice from or follow in any sense of the word.

 

And, in light of the quote from a man of such wisdom, what Christian wouldn't hang their head in shame at knowing they had been lumped into such a category. Hence, the desire to separate themselves from the label of "Christian" and to run headlong into embracing Jesus... which takes us back to Square One.

[orlando]

But all we can "know" about Jesus is what the Bible says and not eveything it says about Jesus is admirable, depending on which bit you read he:

said give all your possessions away and God will provide for you

said leave your family responsibilities

ignored his mother and siblings and said his real mother and siblings were his followers

said if you don' t hate your family and your body and your life, you are not a proper follower

said have nothing to do with people who don' t believe you - they are sinners who will go to hell

said he was God and no one could go to heaven unless they believed in him

said if your eye makes you sin pull it out

said God was about to inaugurate a new Kingdom on earth and reward the faithful in the lifetime of some of his listeners

said he was coming back from the dead

 

etc

[florduh]

Every time I see the title of this thread it pisses me off. I guess I am really irritated by those arrogant fucks.

 

Few here are probably old enough to remember the hippies and the subset of "Jesus Freaks" that it spawned. Pathetic, dope-fogged, free-lovin', unemployed, commune-living morons. Get high on Jesus! Glory!

 

Everything that "straight society" needed to exist was also needed by the "freaks" but had to be repackaged to be acceptable to the tragically cool hippies. Groovier than thou. Assholes.

 

Rant over. Thanks.

[BiMamaFeminAtheist]

I think I was guilty of this mentality myself during my final dying days of belief. I wasn't a gay basher, liked sex and drugs, but still thought Jesus had saved me from hell and loved everyone. Very xtian-light "lukewarm" fluffy bunny "relationship not a religion" heresy.

 

So, while they are annoying, at least it may mean that some of them are on their way OUT of the fold. For me, it was a (embarrassingly insincere) necessary step to take between fundamentalism and atheism, the "religion is made by man to control people, relationship is what gawd wants to have with us" philosophy.

 

Also calling their religion 'the way' makes it sound more like Buddhism, which is trendier and/or more accepted by people with the Christian meme immunity mentioned upthread.