Paul And Jesus

[orlando]

The “historical Jesus” – did Paul only believe in a purely spiritual Jesus whose sacrifice took place in some legendary past or spiritual realm? – as claimed by eg Jesus Never Existed, The Jesus Puzzle, The Jesus Mysteries. Did he also focus on spiritual salvation not bodily resurrection? Was he more Gnostic than literalist?

 

I don’t think so.

My opinion is that Paul existed as a historical figure – I have only very rarely seen this disputed and don’t think any academic scholars dispute it, and his personality comes through clearly in the letters – and that his letters are probably the earliest Christian source – 1st century. They tally up with comments in Acts – that he was a Jew who persecuted the Christians but converted after a vision of Christ/ that he met leaders of the church in Jerusalem including Peter, who he refers to as Cephas.

I think Paul appears to know little about Jesus, but this may not be surprising as he only had rare meetings with the leaders in Jerusalem and admits himself that he is interested mainly in preaching Christ crucified, the Saviour. I think he sees Jesus as someone who lived not long ago and was literally crucified – a specific “modern” method of Roman execution, not something the Messiah was especially expected to undergo - and who literally rose from the dead, in a "glorified"body. I think he sees Christ as in some way God’s son, however says that we too will be adopted as God’s sons if we are faithful. I don’t think he is Trinitarian – he sees God the father as greater than his son. I think he thinks the faithful dead go to be with Jesus in Heaven as spirits (though In Thessalonians 1, 4, he says they are "sleeping" in heaven) and then at a specific point in history – not too far off, but at an unknown date – Jesus will come back to earth and will raise the faithful who were in spirit form in Heaven into new glorious, immortal bodies, and they and the living faithful will enjoy a time when Christ will rule over the world.

 

He also calls himself Apostle to the Gentiles stressing his view is that Gentile converts are saved by faith and do not need to be circumsized or follow the letter of the Jewish law – he states that some other people, whose teaching he disagrees with, say the opposite and the churches he founded should not listen to them. This suggests some other Christians still saw their faith as more closely connected with Judaism, not a ne faith.

 

Some passages:

 

Romans 1

3Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; 4And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

 

Romans 3

21But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

22Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

23For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

24Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

25Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood,

 

28Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

29Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:

Romans 5

6For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

 

8But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

 

12Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

13(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

14Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

15But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

16And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.

17For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

18Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

19For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Romans 6

4Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

5For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

6Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

7For he that is dead is freed from sin.

8Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:

9Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. 10For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.

Romans 8

3For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

11But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

Romans 9

4Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;

5Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

Romans 10

9That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Romans 12

(Teaching of jesus?) 14Bless them which persecute you: bless, and curse not.

Romans 13

(Teaching of jesus? – however also found in OT) 8Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.

9For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

 

Romans 14

9For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.

(teaching of Jesus) 14I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.1 Corinthians

7So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ:

8Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

12Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.

13Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?

17For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

23But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;

For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.

1 Corinthians 2

7But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

8Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 1 C 4

4For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord.

5Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.

1 C 6

14And God hath both raised up the Lord, and will also raise up us by his own power.

1 C 7

(quotes Jesus) 10And unto the married I command, yet not I, but the Lord, Let not the wife depart from her husband:

11But and if she depart, let her remain unmarried or be reconciled to her husband: and let not the husband put away his wife. 1 C 9

1Am I am not an apostle? am I not free? have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord? are not ye my work in the Lord?

2If I be not an apostle unto others, yet doubtless I am to you: for the seal of mine apostleship are ye in the Lord.

1 C 9

(quotes Jesus)

13Do ye not know that they which minister about holy things live of the things of the temple? and they which wait at the altar are partakers with the altar?

14Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel.1 C 11

(describes Last Supper) 23For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, that the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread:

24And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.

25After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, this cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.

26For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come.

27Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.

1 C 15

3For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

4And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

5And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:

6After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.

7After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.

8And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.

12Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?

13But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:

14And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.

16For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:

17And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.

18Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.

19If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable. 20But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

21For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

24Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

25For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

26The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

27For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.

28And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

32If after the manner of men I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantageth it me, if the dead rise not? let us eat and drink; for to morrow we die.

35But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?

36Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:

37And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:

38But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.

42So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

43It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

2 C 8

8I speak not by commandment, but by occasion of the forwardness of others, and to prove the sincerity of your love.

9For ye know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, that ye through his poverty might be rich.

2 C 11

3But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

4For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

2 C 12

(believes soul can exist separately from body) 2I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.

Galatians 1

(didn’t spend much time with the disciples in Jerusalem) 13For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it:

14And profited in the Jews' religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers.

15But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace,

16To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:

17Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus.

18Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and abode with him fifteen days.

19But other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord's brother.

20Now the things which I write unto you, behold, before God, I lie not.

21Afterwards I came into the regions of Syria and Cilicia;

22And was unknown by face unto the churches of Judaea which were in Christ:

23But they had heard only, That he which persecuted us in times past now preacheth the faith which once he destroyed.

24And they glorified God in me.

(says Peter, James and John agreed he could be apostle to the Gentiles) 7But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;

8(For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles:)

9And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.

4

4But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

5To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

Philippians 1

23For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:

24Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.

2

16Holding forth the word of life; that I may rejoice in the day of Christ, that I have not run in vain, neither laboured in vain.

3

10That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;

11If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.

20For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:

21Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

Colossians 2

9For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

(Teaching of Jesus??) 16Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

17Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

1If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.

Thessalonians 1

9For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God;

10And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come

2

14For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews:

15Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men:

16Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.

4

14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

5

14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

2 Thessalonians

And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

8In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

2

(believes in the Antichrist) 1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

[mwc]

Egads! What was all that?

 

mwc

[orlando]

Egads! What was all that?

 

mwc

 

Quotes from the KJV which I think suggest Paul definitely thought Jesus had lived recently as a human being (contrary to some "Jesus Myth"proponants)

[mwc]

Quotes from the KJV which I think suggest Paul definitely thought Jesus had lived recently as a human being (contrary to some "Jesus Myth"proponants)

Well, yeah, but it was like half the NT. How is anyone supposed to "address" this mass of text you've placed here? Even you say little to nothing instead relying on us to do that via some highlighting, coloring and what appear to be embedded comments though I gave up rather quickly.

 

I understand your zeal but unless you're leaving the site soon just slow down a bit and break some of these posts into some smaller chunks. Like maybe start with Romans or just a part of Romans instead of every comment Paul supposedly ever made. I know it would help an older guy like me out.

 

mwc

[orlando]

Quotes from the KJV which I think suggest Paul definitely thought Jesus had lived recently as a human being (contrary to some "Jesus Myth"proponants)

Well, yeah, but it was like half the NT. How is anyone supposed to "address" this mass of text you've placed here? Even you say little to nothing instead relying on us to do that via some highlighting, coloring and what appear to be embedded comments though I gave up rather quickly.

 

I understand your zeal but unless you're leaving the site soon just slow down a bit and break some of these posts into some smaller chunks. Like maybe start with Romans or just a part of Romans instead of every comment Paul supposedly ever made. I know it would help an older guy like me out.

 

mwc

 

Sorry I just went through the main letters and highlighted things I thought suggested a a belief in a flesh and blood Jesus, plus some things like a belief that followers would also have a bodily resurrection etc (as opposed to a belief in purely spiritual matters), and then I took them off www.biblegateway.com and posted them, plus a few comments and some highlightings of what I thought were the most significant bits. Sorry it was a bit of a splurge of information! Not got time to do anything else with it now, but might come back to it.

[TheHammer]

Quotes from the KJV which I think suggest Paul definitely thought Jesus had lived recently as a human being (contrary to some "Jesus Myth"proponants)

 

 

I agree with you, Orlando. I think people who claim that Paul only believed in a "spiritual" Jesus are wrong and don't really know what they are talking about. First of all, one of the letters they most frequently quote to back up their claims, is Hebrews, which even Bible fundie "scholars" aren't sure was written by Paul. The common belief is that it was, but common belief is hardly evidence for anything. Secondly, all the quotes that you gave from Paul's letters directly contradicts such a claim.

 

Having said that, it doesn't mean that the "type" of Jesus Paul believed in had ever existed and certainly doesn't give any reliable evidence for the truthfulness of the miracles the gospels claim for Jesus.

[♦ nivek ♦]

orlando..

 

Word from Dave's fencerider?

 

Feel free to drop the reference location in, "5thbook of Jabberwokieslim2 12:1". If we REAlllLLLlllLLLList need to go read that tomfoolery again, we can do so on our own time.

 

Thnx..

 

kFL

[orlando]

LOL, fair enough

 

PS I agree I don;t think many people think Paul wrote the epistle to the Hebrews. Also I'm not sure you were saying this, but I certainly don't think there is evidence that Paul's Godman Christ existed in the way he thought he did - but like you I disagree he seems to have believed in a purely spiritual one. It is a bit odd he seems to say so little factual about JC (I know he never met him during his life, but you'd think when he went to Jerusalem he would have been keen to find out what people remembered of thim), but then by his own words in once part he is most interested in preaching the crucified saviour in whom one must have faith etc, and direct "insights" from his own visions as opposed to recounting episodes from Jesus' life and moral teachings etc.

[PandaPirate]

Paul was a fruitcake. A nutjob. A lunatic.

 

I wouldn't trust a thing he said.

 

Despite the widespread, uncritical adulation of Paul by those who listen to others instead of thinking for themselves, independent-minded analysts of Jesus' teachings have often found great cause to find fault with Paul. One of the most famous critcisms comes from Thomas Jefferson, who wrote in a letter to James Smith, that "Paul was ... the first corrupter of the doctrines of Jesus." (Works, 1829 edition, vol. 4, p. 327.) -David Danizier

[Max]

Paul was a fruitcake. A nutjob. A lunatic.

 

That's what I was just thinking, myself. He as a real looney toon. I wonder how many xtians realize that he never actually met jesus.

[nightflight]

I will break ranks here and stand up for Paul. Most of the verses that Universalist Christians use come from Paul. Jesus was the heller.

[Deva]

Put me in the "Paul was a nutjob" camp. He plainly thought Jesus was coming very soon, within his lifetime, to take everyone up into the sky. Yes, Paul is responsible for almost all the rapture theology. He is also responsible for the salvation by faith alone business and the predestination stuff. He was obviously quite mistaken.

[orlando]

There are a number of verses that plainly suggest Jesus himself also thought the end of the world as we know it and the establishment of the Kingdom of God was just around the corner - so in that sense I think Jesus was wrong (or a "nut") too.

 

However the point of my post was just to say I think Paul believed in Jesus as a recent historcial figure as opposed to Jesus-Myth proponants who liked to suggest he supports their claims.

 

My view of Paul is that firstly Christianity would have died out without him, and secondly that he greatly elevated the importance of the central figure of Jesus above what the historical figure probably preached. I think Jesus preached repentance and a simple life in readiness for the coming "Kingdom" - a belief in this "Kingdom" which would be when God would send his Messiah to literally usher in a new age of peace and love under God's direct rule - which the righteous dead would be resurected to enjoy, was common to other groups at the time as well, notably the Pharisees. I think he also stressed the importance of the being compasionate and forgiving over pious law-following in matters of diet and the sabbath etc. However I do think he probably believed in hell and think he expected most people who didn't agree with him or listen to his preaching to end up there. I think he saw himself as having some specially close relationship to God, but do not believe he consider himself an incarnation of him, and do not think he intended to get killed. I think the whole "atonement" theology was invented to "explain" his death

[PandaPirate]

Orlando,

 

Stop reading the bible literally. It's not an historical book. It's actually much more understood when read symbolically. It points at eternal, higher truths. Jesus spoke in parables (if he existed, and I tend to think he may have).

 

I suggest looking into Christian Mysticism if you want to learn more about the Bible. Also, learn about comparative religion. Christianity is another form of other, older religions. Learn about Egyptian Mythology.

 

Unfortunately, when you read the bible and try to make it make sense, it WON'T. If you look for creative ways to interpret it SYMBOLICALLY it starts to fall into place.

 

Again, I suggest reading some Carl Jung and Joseph Campbell. Then read some things written by the Gnostics and the Mystics. If I have time later, I'll post links.

[mwc]

eternal, higher truths.

Uh oh. Even higher than the eternal, higher truths it already claims? Amazing.

 

Joseph Campbell.

Thought so.

 

Have a nice day.

 

mwc

[orlando]

Hello PandaPirate

 

If I feel enthused in that direction at some point (which I don' t now) I might look more into the areas you refer to, but I am not unaware of such concepts, I just think that actually they are just slightly desperate attempts to try to find universal meaning and continuing relevance in things which in their original form and intentions lack it and are now mostly of literary or historical interest. Other religions also have more mystical forms, which appeal especially to those who want an emotional experience of oneness with God etc but are put off by the historical and theological details of the actual teachings of their religions' founders and holy books -- I think this would apply to the Sufis in Islam, who it seems to me are are sensitive and poetic and mystical, and not much like Mohammad

 

 

Also, if you insist that Biblical stories must all be seen in the light of symbolic, mystical interpretations etc, who decides on the correct symbolic interpretation, and who are you suggesting put the meanings there? Do you mean that even if the original writers meant something else (something more literal and more restricted to their time and culture, and now irrelevant) then some higher power (God?) ensured that the stories would have true underlying symbolic meanings which would become more apparent in later years (ie to us now, who can read Jung and Jospeh Campbell etc)? Or is it just generally the case (for whatever reason) that whenever a specific culture comes up with religious teachings and stories to try to explain the world they live in, in fact underlying universal truths will emerge from their attempts for those able to see the big picture and set aside the superficial parts ?

[mwc]

I was just thinking about old Paul a bit earlier and based on the story in Acts we're told that Paul is heading on up to Damascus to get at some xians with his posse. Then some "magic" happens and he's on the other team but he's got to hang out for a little while with his new pals until he can see again and all that.

 

So what did all his xian persecuting buddies do? Does Saul tell them he's going undercover? The conflicting accounts don't give much to go on. But they just dropped him off at the front door of known xians and ran away? No grabbing them up or stabbing or whatever they did when they said "persecuting?" Saul led them right to the "enemy" and just nothing? When they found out he was the enemy they didn't feel deep betrayal and hunt him down more vigorously? Nothing? Just a shrug? And when Saul leaves Damascus he now has his own disciples? These are who? The existing xians he was hunting? The zealous xian hunters? Are we to believe that the xians took the hunter and made him their teacher? No one else did. Barnabbas had to vouch just to get him in the front door and they rejected his nonsense. So then his zealous hunter pals switched teams based on his roadside freak-out and made him their teacher? Not likely. Even jesus' own followers weren't that loyal.

 

It seems that Saul isn't all he's cracked up to be. His story has lots of questions and no answers. Even when Paul mentions Saul days in the one or two lines it comes after he appears to have finished all the hyperbole about his exploits. Like someone else may have decided this was a good place to tack it on. I don't know if people think it's an insertion but I'm starting to wonder. It's out of place. The stuff before seems to flow. He finishes (going on the whole god and jesus stuff) then he mentions Aretas the king and Damascus to people in Corinth (Greece). As if they would know or care about Aretas. He was a world away, possibly years away, from them. People from there barely knew of Herod the Great (if at all) and he truly mattered unlike Aretas IV (a nobody). Oh well, this is really another thought. I guess I had a couple.

 

mwc

[freeradikle]

Since the Babble itself tells us that Paul & Co. spread multiple copies of his letters around all the churches like a cheap hooker spreads the clap, it's just about impossible to tell who wrote or rewrote each letter, if the original, "authoritative" copies of the letters are what got into the canon, or if they're all fake and the writer just attributed them to Paul.

 

So trying to fathom what Paul thought about Jesus is just about a completely moot point.

[florduh]

orlando, I think we're probably in the same camp on the subject of symbolism and greater truth (Campbell style).

 

The great themes of Mankind (birth, death, immortality, salvation, creation, love, etc.) have been addressed throughout history and cultures. Allegories and myths specific to the times and cultures were written down and frequently morphed into religions.

 

Many people can see common concepts running through various mythological writings and assume when two or more stories allude to the same conclusion (we each have a soul that is immortal, for example) it must be a Higher Truth™. The fact that humans are the only animals on this planet that can contemplate their own mortality, and have a limited number of scenarios possible to deal with this information, leads me to conclude that similar conclusions drawn from diverse sources is not only coincidence, but highly probable.

 

People generally want to live meaningful lives, free from sickness and misfortune. We don't like the idea that someday we will no longer exist. The priesthood and shamans have traditionally addressed these concerns using mythologies (often built on and borrowed from previous writings) and allegories to explain the human condition. Obviously we humans have no control over weather, natural disasters, epidemics and death so a "god" is invented to be the all-powerful being in control of our fates.

 

None of this provides any evidence whatsoever that any of it is true. So for me, the Bible taken literally or symbolically/allegorically is useless for the real world. That is not to say that common sense ideas like the "Golden Rule" aren't helpful. But you can get as much good advice from bumper stickers.

[orlando]

Yes, I agree with this post on all points. However although I do think you can point to certain (predictable) universal themes in myths I don't think you can always say -- precise story element X is related to Y in myths A,B and C, therefore it must also relate to Y in myth D (e.g. in certain myths seprpents may have a connection to Goddess worship or the awakening of the kundalini energy therefore the author of Genesis either deliberately or unconsciously was making some reference to goddess worship and kundalini energy through his story - for example). I think myths need to be looked at in terms of their specific context and then in terms of whether they contain universal themes, but not necessarily assuming every element in a specific myth relates to some universal theme shared with other stories. I think originally the serpent was just a (crafty, talking) serpent, or at most represented evil or cunning or wilfulness and rebellion or - to take a more positive slant - possibly wisdom, and later for Christians it becomes an embodiment of Satan the tempter of mankind. Just IMHO

[florduh]

Yes, I'm pretty sure the author(s) of Genesis had never heard of "kundalini" and writers of Hindu texts never envisioned a burning bush as a way for a god to communicate with humans. The concepts expressed through myth are culture specific, with some crossover inevitably happening as diverse societies began to intersect.

[PandaPirate]

eternal, higher truths.

Uh oh. Even higher than the eternal, higher truths it already claims? Amazing.

 

Joseph Campbell.

Thought so.

 

Have a nice day.

 

mwc

No need to be rude.

 

It's my opinion and I'm entitled to it. That's why we come to a forum like this, so we can express our opinions without fear of being snubbed by others.

 

When you write a retort such as this, it's equivalent to, well, just being plain immature.

[PandaPirate]

In addition, as for my references to Kundalini, there is some supporting evidence to back up my opinion. But it's just that, an opinion.

 

I chose to become Buddhist after leaving the church and as a result I've come across a lot of books that seem to make sense to me about this subject and many others.

 

For me, symbolism is a fascinating subject. Why does it seem to rile some people here up? What's the big deal?

 

A lot of people on this forum chose to become hardcore atheists who beleive everything is meaningless. That's fine but it's not for me.

 

In looking around, I've come across some research that states exactly what I was pointing out about the Serpent and Kundanlini. It's not something I just "thought up." The idea has been around a LONG time.

 

http://www.kundaliniresearch.org/moses.html

 

In addition, to say, "Moses probably didn't know about Kundalini" is to assert that Moses actually lived.

 

That being said, the cult of Kundalini was around for about 3000 years BCE. Moses supposedly lived between 1300 and 1150 BCE.

[florduh]

Symbolism is indeed a fascinating subject. One may study it and see the different names people have given to the same concepts. Campbell made a career out of the endeavor, and covered the subject quite well in my opinion.

 

The dishonesty that can arise is that people who believe in Jesus want to say that stories from other cultures are really mirroring the teachings of Jesus, while those immersed in popular Eastern thought systems think Jesus mirrored their Truth.

 

All that aside, the fact that culture A believes in creation myth 1 and culture B believes in creation myth 2 doesn't mean evolution isn't what really happened. The symbols point to grand ideas that can't be empirically studied, much less proven. It's a way to frame mental constructs and hopes for humanity. Some of us don't choose atheism, but rather come to that conclusion after study.

[PandaPirate]

Symbolism is indeed a fascinating subject. One may study it and see the different names people have given to the same concepts. Campbell made a career out of the endeavor, and covered the subject quite well in my opinion.

 

The dishonesty that can arise is that people who believe in Jesus want to say that stories from other cultures are really mirroring the teachings of Jesus, while those immersed in popular Eastern thought systems think Jesus mirrored their Truth.

 

All that aside, the fact that culture A believes in creation myth 1 and culture B believes in creation myth 2 doesn't mean evolution isn't what really happened. The symbols point to grand ideas that can't be empirically studied, much less proven. It's a way to frame mental constructs and hopes for humanity. Some of us don't choose atheism, but rather come to that conclusion after study.

 

Oh, don't get me wrong. I TOTALLY believe in Evolution but I'm fascinated by mythology.