Interpreting The Garden Of Eden

[PandaPirate]

The story of Adam and Eve is highly symbolic. I am trying to research it for some art work I am doing.

 

So, what do you think?

 

My interpretation is as follows:

 

Adam and Eve represent Primordial Yin/Yang, Male/Female energy.

The Serpent is a phallic symbol that represents base sexual (Kundalini) energy.

Once these two energies combine to form matter, you get "good and evil"

 

Any suggestions? Modifications?

 

PS. I hope I put this in the right place.

[orlando]

I think "Primordial Yin/Yang, Male/Female energy"are spiritual-type concepts that I don;t think are that meaningful, and I think in the original they just represent a man and a woman, because that's the (main) kinds humans come in!

 

What evidence do you have (apart from the obvious Freudian - it's a long thin thing) that the serpent is a sexual reference? Re. "base kundalini energy" I think what I said in my first sentence and again doubt the creators of the myth had heard of this (which I uderstand to be an alleged energy that is supposedly coiled up like a serpent at the base of the spine and waiting to be released by some esoteric meditation practices to give you powerfully enlightening and ecstatic experiences). I think the serpent - kundalini paralell is a bit of a coincidence IMHO.

 

Adam and Eve eating the fruit was meant to give them knowledge of good and evil, not actually create good and evil. Men and women coming together creates pleasure and maybe a baby, but not "good and evil" as such, unless you stretch it a bit? Re. creating matter, surely God is supposed to have done that?

 

I think it is just a legend that primitive people came up with to explain suffering and death etc despite there being a supposedly all-powerful and good God -- how supposedly God created everything good and life was lovely (and everlasting), but humans (must have) messed up so having to have difficult lives and die, so we have to work out what to do to get in his good books again

 

It seems to me a bit like the Tower of babel story as well -- it seems like God doesn;t like humans to "get above themselves" and wants them to keep in their place. Hence, seeking after (forbidden) experience and knowledge is bad, and he wanted them to be docile and obedient, like he also didn;t want them to "climb up to heaven"in a high tower (hmm they are building one more than one kilometre high in Dubai - they better watch out...). Genesis adds that God kicked them out as soon as possible so they could not eat also of the tree of life (which as far as I know he had not actually forbidden to them) and so become like gods having knowledge and immortiality.

[PandaPirate]

Obviously it's a spiritual concept. That is the whole point. I'm asking a serious question and would appreciate any answers that are seriously thought out.

 

There are numerous books written on the subject of Biblical Symbolism, particularly in the Garden of Eden. I'm curious to know what people have learned about the matter.

 

If you think spiritual ideas have no meaning, that's your opinion. I, however, believe the Bible to be deeply rooted in astrology and other hidden meanings. Many others on this board are aware of what I am talking about.

 

So, if anyone has anything to add to my interpretation other than "I don't think it has any meaning..." please respond.

Furthermore, from Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fall_of_Man#Kundalini_Yoga

 

In the theory of Kundalini Yoga, some agnostics, Yogic practitioners, and anthropologists, including author William Irwin Thompson, attribute the story of the fall to the time when human beings first understood that sex led to pregnancy, and understood what menstruation is. Before this time, people did not have a concept of paternity. As with many primates, the male caretaker was the brother of the mother. There was no way to determine paternity, except that women at some point understood their own menstrual cycles and could determine who had fathered their children. Eventually, this knowledge was shared with men, or with man.

 

At that point, men wanted to control paternity, pass on inheritances of land and status, etc. From this circumstance arose many social conflicts, and sense of "good and evil". For example, the only way to control paternity is to marry a virgin and make sure she is watched by the community; thus virginity and monogamy become law, and innumerable social taboos, requirements and rituals come into being.

 

William Irwin Thompson equates the serpent with the awakening of kundalini ("serpentine") energy, the sexual energy held in the pelvis that, when channeled upwards, becomes divine knowledge. In "The time falling bodies take to light", Thompson theorizes that Eve's kundalini awakened, leading her to understand sexuality and human power and intelligence. In Sanskrit, "kundalini" means "serpent"

[qadeshet]

Adam is Man, as in Mankind. Eve is the Mother of all living, Mother Earth, the Great Mother. The sacred tree and the serpent of wisdom have been associated with goddess based religions for ages.

 

Genesis of Eden

[orlando]

Obviously it's a spiritual concept. That is the whole point. I'm asking a serious question and would appreciate any answers that are seriously thought out.

 

Fair enough. You are right, I do not think any spiritual concepts are meaningful, unless they are reinterpreted in rational/scientific/everyday ways as guides to life in some way not as unproveable supernatural concepts.

 

Re. this legend again, I think you can take any old myth and give it whatever symbolic reinterpretations you like. I just don't see why you suppose the ancient Hebrews were interested in kundalini, or in primordial yin and yang or "masculine and feminine energies". What gives you this impression? Kundalini is a Hindu concept, and yin and yang are from China. Otherwise, masculine and feminine energies strikes me as a New Age concet, not an Old Testament one. How else were they going to create a founding myth for the creation of humanity without it involving at least one man and one woman? Also it seems to me the association of the sin of eating the apple etc with sex is often exaggerated -- it was more about disobedience and seeking knowledge -- I don't see why the serpent symbolises sex - apart from, as I said, that it is long and thin like a penis!, which is how most serpents are (although it had legs before being cursed) - and I am not aware that the Old Testment generally suggests any special reverence given to sexual energies as a creative force in that particular culture.

 

I think God (in the context of the story) created Adam and Eve with sexual relations in mind - not that sex resulted from the Fall. Genesis 2, 23 says when Eve was created Adam said : "this one is at last bone of my bones flesh of my flesh." This is why a man leaves his father and mother and becomes attached to his wife, and they become one flesh"

 

Yes, after eating the apple they realise they are "naked"but I think this is more symbolic of loss of the pure innocence and naiveity God wanted them to have not specifically about sex. Then later when God curses them he includes things like pain in childbirth (but does not say Eve was never meant to bear children at all) and being attracted to her husband but being dominated by him. I think this is mainly all meant to contrast with how things were going to be before - no conflict and pain etc.

 

I don;t know why it is necessary to go looking for symblic meanings hidden by the (rather primitive) authors, when the surface one makes sense -- that they were mainly looking for an explanation of death and suffering. I think the fact they were chucked out so as they could not eat of the Tree of Life is especially interesting -- "Now that the man has become like one of us in knowing good from evil he must not be allowed to reach out his hand and pick from the tree of life also and eat and live forever too." After all, he said he was "a jealous God" - and his treatment of Satan shows that trying to be like him is the worst sin of all. The whole Bible can essentially be seen as conveying the message that God wants people to be humble and obedient and then things will go well for them.

 

I think my post was a bit more "thought out" than yours, as you just stated your conclusions without any explanation or evidence. So if you feel like expanding on your reasons rather than just quoting other pweople who also just state their theories with no evidence with no reference to the Bible or Jewish culture etc, feel free. For example if your interpretation is right what do you think its relevance was in the context? Are you saying the writers originally wished to convey a ("tantric?") message about how sex can lead to enlightenment? Or just that they were glorifying sex generally and stressing its creative role? Why then would they also stress that the apple-eating lead to pain and suffering and banishment? Also the whole context of the rest of the OT is about obedience to God being good and disobedience bad, so why would you assume the real meaning of Adam and Eve is meant to be that their disobedence was actually a good, creative act? That sounds more like some sort of Gnosticism or something rather than traditional Judaism.

 

Or do you feel that ancient myths may contain symbolic meanings that we, with greater perspective and hindsight, can understand now even though the original authors might have been unaware of them ?

[PandaPirate]

Adam is Man, as in Mankind. Eve is the Mother of all living, Mother Earth, the Great Mother. The sacred tree and the serpent of wisdom have been associated with goddess based religions for ages.

 

Genesis of Eden

 

Thank you for the reference.

[PandaPirate]

Orlando,

I suggest you read about the Collective Unconscious concept by Carl Jung. I also suggest reading some Joseph Cambell before you try addressing this kind of discussion again.

 

But thanks!

[Neon Genesis]

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought the serpent was traditionally a symbol for wisdom in mythology, not sex?

[PandaPirate]

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought the serpent was traditionally a symbol for wisdom in mythology, not sex?

 

 

I'm not sure but I have a book called The Dictionary of All Scriptures and Myths and it compares every myth from all major religions. For example, when I looked up Christ's Second Coming it defined it as "A symbol of the completion of the process of purification and development of the souls of humanity, when the lower conciousness rises to union with the higher."

 

However, when I look up Serpent in that same dictionary it gives some very obscure meanings.

 

When I googled Serpent Symbolism it led me to an interesting link that says:

 

The serpent is one of the oldest and most widespread mythological symbols. Considerable overlap exists in the symbolic values that serpents represent in various cultures. Some such overlap is due to the common historical ancestry of contemporary symbols. Much of the overlap, however, is traceable to the common biological characteristics of snakes.

 

In some instances, serpents serve as positive symbols with whom it is possible to identify or to sympathize; in other instances, serpents serve as negative symbols, representing opponents or antagonists of figures or principles with which it is possible to identify. Serpents also appear as ambivalent figures, neither wholly positive nor wholly negative in valence. An example of a serpent used as a positive symbol is Mucalinda, the king of snakes who shielded the Buddha from the elements as the Buddha sat in meditation. An example of a serpent used as a negative symbol is the snake who tempted Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden, as described in the Book of Genesis.

 

The following are some of the particular symbolic values frequently assiged to serpents in myth, legend, and literature:

 

from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serpent_(symbolism)

[Deva]

Panda, the serpent has a lot of different symbolic meanings. In a work of art there is no right or wrong answer IMO.

 

The Orouboros sprang to my mind - see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ouroboros That, is, the serpent as a symbol of eternity. Certainly it does have the phallic connotation also - I have seen it represented often on statues of Shiva. Of course the Kundalini is also the Serpent Power. Just curious, have you read that book, The Serpent Power by Arthur Avalon?

 

Just curious, what type of art is it? Is it painting, sculpture, etc.

[PandaPirate]

Panda, the serpent has a lot of different symbolic meanings. In a work of art there is no right or wrong answer IMO.

 

The Orouboros sprang to my mind - see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ouroboros That, is, the serpent as a symbol of eternity. Certainly it does have the phallic connotation also - I have seen it represented often on statues of Shiva. Of course the Kundalini is also the Serpent Power. Just curious, have you read that book, The Serpent Power by Arthur Avalon?

 

Just curious, what type of art is it? Is it painting, sculpture, etc.

 

Deva,

 

It's a tarot card I'm designing. I feel like I can better come up with something by knowing the mythology behind the symbol. I keep having dreams about serpents as well!

[Deva]

It's a tarot card I'm designing. I feel like I can better come up with something by knowing the mythology behind the symbol. I keep having dreams about serpents as well!

 

Good luck with that Panda. I can relate to serpent dreams. I had a doozy of one around a year ago. I think it is a very potent symbol and I considered my dream to be very spiritually significant.

[PandaPirate]

Deva,

 

I have a very interesting book called The Cosmic Serpent - DNA and the Origins of Knowledge. I haven't finished reading it yet because I'm reading too many books at once right now!

 

http://www.amazon.com/Cosmic-Serpent-Jerem...y/dp/0874779642

[orlando]

I think we have different perspectives on this and I think if your interpretations of this particular myth are meaningful to you, in the context of your personal approach to spiritual matters and in your art, then that is fine. Myths can mean different things to different people. However I was just taking a practical approach looking at what the text says, whereas you are keen to see various underlying symbolic meanings and seem keen to make it seem meaningful to you personally - that appraoch is OK, but it doesn't mean I am ignorant and need to read up on Jung's theories about symbols... You disliked me trying to refer to what I think the story means in the context of the Old Testament and the ancient Hebrews, but you are impressed if someone comes up with a symbolic interpretation stating that serpents have been associated with Goddess worship, because it is more your kind of answer (Yes, they might have been associated with certain goddesses, but they are also associated, eg with Apollo, and Hercules, and Asklepios to think of a few male mythological figures who had some involvement with serpents - historically each goddess was an individual figure in a particular culture and the tendancy to talk about "goddess worship"as though all female god figures are aspects of the same thing is a bit of a modern generalisation IMO. Also what has goddess worship got to do with the Old Testament?). Anyway, I don't have much to add to that, so hope the tarot card works out well

[Guest]

Orlando, I think you are misunderstanding what this topic is about.

 

There is a "science" for lack of a better word, that deals with mythological symbolism throughout the ages and cultures. What you think is someone's opinion of what a myth or symbol means to them is not that at all. When you take everything we know about ancient myths and ideas and put them side by side, you begin to see an amazing evolution of the same story take place. You really should read Campbell, he really has done some outstanding work in the field of mythology and I guarentee you will see mythology in a completely different light and understand this thread alot better if you do.

 

I personally have never read any Jung (but I will pick up the suggested reading of his this week!), but I highly recomend you read Campbell's "Hero With a Thousand Faces" and his interview with Bill Moyers, "The Power of Myth". You are missing a huge piece of what is being discussed here by not knowing his work.

[PandaPirate]

Marty, I found an interesting website called The Archive for Research in Archetypal Symbolism

 

http://aras.org/

 

Let me know what you think. I'm going to look over it now!

[Guest]

Wow! It looks great from the quick look thru I just gave it...I'm gonna surf it alot better this weekend...

 

I am very amazed at the idea of a collective unconcious. I think that this collective is what many people can feel, and they mistake this feeling for "god". I know I seem to be able to tap into this energy from time to time. I experience what I call "parallel thinking" with many people who are close to me, and it happens often enough that I sometimes think it is not coincidental...but who knows?

 

Another book about collective conscience is "Global Brain" by Howard Bloom, IIRC...very good read. It discusses how collective intelligence can be found in the wild, bees and ants, for example. I don't see why it could not also appear in humans.

[PandaPirate]

I think that "God" is probably the sum total of every single thing in the universe. Not a new concept...I realize...but at any rate I'm not entirely sold on the idea of a "personal god" although it would be cozy!

[Guest harambee]

Interesting discussion. I especially like some of Orlando's thoughts. I just wanted to give what I take to be the traditional Jewish and Xian teaching on the topic, which is that 'good and evil' are concepts only God has the ability to judge correctly. Whenever humans put ourselves in God's place as judges of what is good or evil, we fail and the result leads to death. That is why A&E were forbidden from eating from the tree - not because God was jealous and wanted to be the only one with such knowledge, but because, as humans, A&E would not be able to handle the job of judging good and evil. When God does it, it leads to life. When humans do it, it leads to death. The serpent is that sly, convincing thought at the back of our minds that tells us that this isn't true - that we really can judge things for ourselves just as well as God can, and that the only reason he doesn't want us to is that he wants to have a monopoly on the task. 'You won't sure die,' the serpent says. You can do this and do it right.

 

This teaching is entirely consistent with other Biblical teachings on the topic, including Jesus' when he urged us not to judge others or repay evil with evil. Indeed, all of human history can be seen as an attempt to judge good and evil for ourselves, creating various civilizaitons and legal systems in our attempts. They always lead to war and death.

 

Once A&E have made the wrong decision and taken judgment into their own hands, they are banished from the Garden and not allowed to eat from the tree of life, which would allow them to live forever. Again, this isn't because God is afraid of or threatened by them, but it is for the protection of creation. If, with our imperfect ability to judge that always leads to death, mankind were able to live forever, there would be no limit to the havoc and destruction we would cause. The exact same reasoning applies to the Tower of Babel story which Orlando (appropriately) brings up. The traditional Xian and Jewish understanding is that God did not scatter the people and confuse their language because they were a threat to him, but because he recognized what a danger they were to themselves and the rest of the world. Again, our imperfect ability to judge good and evil always leads to death. To give people concentrated political power (which Babel symbolizes) on top of that is always going to be a bad idea, always leading to broader and bigger forms of death. We have only to look at the history of human empires from Ancient Egypt to Modern America to know this is true.

 

I hope that is helpful. While there are certainly some gender themes to be drawn from this story (in particular the dualistic consequences that God pronounces for man and woman after their disobedience), I don't think they can be taken as central to the story.

[PandaPirate]

Actually, the topic was symbolism.

[PandaPirate]

Actually, the topic was symbolism. For example, what does the snake symbolize? Knowledge? Evil? The question at hand is meant to be discussed as the story of Adam and Eve (i think) a metaphor. It certainly isn't literal.

 

Here's an interesting thread at Science Forums on the same topic:

 

https://www.scienceforums.net/forum/showthread.php?t=11540

[Antlerman]

If, with our imperfect ability to judge that always leads to death, mankind were able to live forever, there would be no limit to the havoc and destruction we would cause.

Which explains why as a species we've gone from a small group of a few dozen or so, to over 7,000,000,000 human beings inhabiting this planet. Our bad judgment on how to survive leads to death as is evidenced by the radical population decrease we've seen since our fall from grace. Thanks for clarifying that our judgment leads to all this death. If only we had obeyed God, there could have been 800 Trillion instead of mere 7 Billion. What fools we have been.

[orlando]

Actually, the topic was symbolism. For example, what does the snake symbolize? Knowledge? Evil? The question at hand is meant to be discussed as the story of Adam and Eve (i think) a metaphor. It certainly isn't literal.

 

I just don;t see why you are convinced it "has" to be so much more than just a literal, wrong, story by primitive people trying to decribe the start of the world. I don;t know why it 'has"to have some "real" "deeper" meaning, other than being an interesting from an anthropological point of view, or as ancient literature. But I see you seem to find it important it should be so. You may be right, but I don;t see how, if there are symbolic meanings, one could decide on a right one for each character and incident. Anyway, sorry to flog a dead horse a bit

[Neon Genesis]

My thoughts on this debate as to the meaning of scriptures is unless you can travel back in time and meet the original authors or provide some evidence of what the authors meant when they wrote a verse, like a statement of them saying "This is what we really meant," no one can truly know for certain if the scriptures are intended to be read literally or symbolically. Without any evidence of even who the authors were, let alone what they intended when they wrote the scriptures, one person's interpretation of the bible is just as likely to be true as anyone else's, so I think it's meaningless to debate the meaning since without evidence, no one can know for certain.

[orlando]

Actually, the topic was symbolism.

 

 

Well the name of the thread is "interpreting the Garden of Eden".... you then went on to say YOU find it highly symbolic and asked people what they thought. If other people differ have other interpretations I don't see how that is digressing far from the thread. Thanks Harambee for saying you found some of my remarks relevant, even if I do not share your religious viewpoint as to the meaningfulness of the story