Neon Genesis Posted October 31, 2008 Share Posted October 31, 2008 According to Mark 3:25, Jesus says that a house divided against itself cannot stand "If a house is divided against itself, that house will not be able to stand.Since Christianity is divided against itself through all the different denominations and divisions, then if there is any truth to the words of Jesus, then Christianity cannot stand and the bible was false. On the other hand, if Christianity still survives, then Jesus was wrong about division and so the bible was still false. But since atheism has no beliefs or dogma to disagree on, since we're all in our agreement that god doesn't exist, then that must mean atheism is true according to Jesus, so Christians should become atheists because we're the true followers of Jesus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MathGeek Posted November 6, 2008 Share Posted November 6, 2008 Damn, Neon. You should become a philosopher. I love that reasoning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwc Posted November 7, 2008 Share Posted November 7, 2008 Perhaps xianity isn't truly divided? mwc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BarbB Posted November 8, 2008 Share Posted November 8, 2008 According to Mark 3:25, Jesus says that a house divided against itself cannot stand "If a house is divided against itself, that house will not be able to stand.Since Christianity is divided against itself through all the different denominations and divisions, then if there is any truth to the words of Jesus, then Christianity cannot stand and the bible was false. On the other hand, if Christianity still survives, then Jesus was wrong about division and so the bible was still false. But since atheism has no beliefs or dogma to disagree on, since we're all in our agreement that god doesn't exist, then that must mean atheism is true according to Jesus, so Christians should become atheists because we're the true followers of Jesus. Hi, I think the following scriptures will show that Jesus came to cause division... Luk 12:51 Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division: Luk 12:52 For from henceforth there shall be five in one house divided, three against two, and two against three. Luk 12:53 The father shall be divided against the son, and the son against the father; the mother against the daughter, and the daughter against the mother; the mother in law against her daughter in law, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. But what possible good could come from this division...this is how our Father moved throughout the world...by dividing and splitting churches the gospel is being taught throughout all the world... Are all out there calling themselves Christians...Christians...Absolutely NOT...are all Jews out there the Jews from the House of Israel...absolutely not... God warns us over and over again that those planted by Satan are in the earth today. They are the tares and they would like to kill you before they'd like to look at you and they continue until the end of this time, as we know it...but the day will come when they'll be taken out of the world... But Jesus was clear...division was a part of what was and is happening...just rember, not all who go out under the flag of Christianity are Christians...God told us many antiChrists are in the world today. They come in Jesus' name and claim to be the followers of Christ and there is no fruit in them... Love, Barb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neon Genesis Posted November 9, 2008 Author Share Posted November 9, 2008 Hi, I think the following scriptures will show that Jesus came to cause division... Luk 12:51 Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division: Luk 12:52 For from henceforth there shall be five in one house divided, three against two, and two against three. Luk 12:53 The father shall be divided against the son, and the son against the father; the mother against the daughter, and the daughter against the mother; the mother in law against her daughter in law, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. But what possible good could come from this division...this is how our Father moved throughout the world...by dividing and splitting churches the gospel is being taught throughout all the world... Then why did Jesus pray for his follower for unity in John 17:20-21 if he came to divide instead of unite? I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word; 21that they may all be one; (AU)even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, (AV)so that the world may believe that (AW)You sent Me. Isn't this an obvious biblical contradiction? Are all out there calling themselves Christians...Christians...Absolutely NOT...are all Jews out there the Jews from the House of Israel...absolutely not...God warns us over and over again that those planted by Satan are in the earth today. They are the tares and they would like to kill you before they'd like to look at you and they continue until the end of this time, as we know it...but the day will come when they'll be taken out of the world... But Jesus was clear...division was a part of what was and is happening...just rember, not all who go out under the flag of Christianity are Christians...God told us many antiChrists are in the world today. They come in Jesus' name and claim to be the followers of Christ and there is no fruit in them... Love, Barb Please, this is just the same old "everyone else who doesn't agree with me isn't a "true" Christian" cliche that all xtians use. Give us one good reason why we should believe you're a "true" Christian and not an antiChrist yourself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BarbB Posted November 9, 2008 Share Posted November 9, 2008 Hi, No it's not a contradiction... Jesus causes division to separate the goats from the sheep...but for His sheep He wants unity... A person can't take one scripture out of context and determine they know what God is saying. OKay, where I have said to anyone to believe I am a true Christian... In fact, I've posted recently to... Count every man a liar and seek the Truth from God and God alone...One on one... God is Truth... Romans 3:4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged. If I believed you, I'd feel pretty terrible about myself...but I choose to believe God and in Him there is freedom... Freedom to be all that I can be, in world that has chosen to walk away from good and glorify themselves... My prayer for all here is that they don't look for man's approval but search for the Truth... There is Truth and it is the most awesome loving freedom known to man. Unfortunately there is deception in the world today and if we all aren't on guard for it, it can lead us into a place we don't want to go. God did share with us something we can see in the True believer... Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Gal 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. Jesus said we'll know them by their fruit...He meant the fruits of the spirit listed above...if you don't see that...then they aren't true believers or they are new believers learning their walk with Jesus... Absolutely you couldn't tell me if I was or wasn't a true Christian, firstly because you don't know me...but you can know the God who created you and me if you choose to count every man a liar and seek the face of God. He does love you and wants to give you that freedom. You seem to know some scriptures...ask God to reveal His truth to you...not what some "traditions of men" in some deceived church may or may not have taught you... The faith belongs with God, not man and not the intellect of some man... Love, Barb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neon Genesis Posted November 9, 2008 Author Share Posted November 9, 2008 Hi, No it's not a contradiction... Jesus causes division to separate the goats from the sheep...but for His sheep He wants unity... Then all Christians must be goats, not sheep, since there is no church that is united. OKay, where I have said to anyone to believe I am a true Christian...Why would you be here telling us how wrong we are unless you thought you were right? In fact, I've posted recently to... Count every man a liar and seek the Truth from God and God alone...One on one... God is Truth... Then why are you here speaking on behalf of God's authority, since you're a human yourself? Or do you think you're somehow above humanity? If I believed you, I'd feel pretty terrible about myself...but I choose to believe God and in Him there is freedom...Doesn't the bible say to judge not lest ye be judged? So, what gives you the right to judge me by telling me I have to feel terrible about myself if I'm not a Christian and that I can only have freedom in your religion? I don't know about you, but this sounds like the talk of someone who thinks they're a "true" Christian to me. Freedom to be all that I can be, in world that has chosen to walk away from good and glorify themselves...What gives you the right to tell us that none of us here are good and only you are? And if you think you're the only one glorified, the bible says you're a liar since it says there is no one that's righteous and that includes you. So, why don't you go pluck the shard out of your own eye before you pluck the shard out of ours and stop acting like a big-headed hypocrite? My prayer for all here is that they don't look for man's approval but search for the Truth...Then what gives you the right to give us your approval? There is Truth and it is the most awesome loving freedom known to man.It sounds more like you're a slave to judgmental attitudes and hypocrisy to me than "freedom" to me. God did share with us something we can see in the True believer... Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Gal 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. Jesus said we'll know them by their fruit...He meant the fruits of the spirit listed above...if you don't see that...then they aren't true believers or they are new believers learning their walk with Jesus... Then you must not be a "true" Christian either since you have displayed none of these qualities since you've been here on this site and all your posts in this thread have been nothing but judgmental, hypocritical, and arrogant. Absolutely you couldn't tell me if I was or wasn't a true Christian, firstly because you don't know me...but you can know the God who created you and me if you choose to count every man a liar and seek the face of God.You don't know me either, hypocrite, so what gives you the right to tell me that I should feel terrible or that I'm not a good person? He does love you and wants to give you that freedom.You seem to know some scriptures...ask God to reveal His truth to you...not what some "traditions of men" in some deceived church may or may not have taught you... The faith belongs with God, not man and not the intellect of some man... You're right, remind me not to listen to anything you say then since you're a human too and you're arguing from the traditions of humanity as well and are nothing more than a deceiver. And why does your post reek of sexism against women since you only mention men in your posts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BarbB Posted November 9, 2008 Share Posted November 9, 2008 You said: Then all Christians must be goats, not sheep, since there is no church that is united. Barb says: God teaches us in Revelation 2,3 that there are seven different "types" of churches, today. Of those seven different "types" of churches, there are two types that He is pleased with. They are united, but "5" different types of churches, are not pleasing completely to God. They have a few things correct, but not all. So, many who are calling themselves Christians could quite possibly be "goats", but there are those in each "type" of church who will overcome. Not my words, the Word of God's You said: Why would you be here telling us how wrong we are unless you thought you were right? Barb said: I don't recall telling you that you were wrong, but I do believe I am correct, but 1 Corinthians 10 teaches me to take heed lest I fall, so I've shared God's Word with you, in God's Word there's Truth and only One who guides us into all Truth and that's the Holy Spirit. I can teach nothing, but I can talk about Scriptures. Joh 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. You said: Then why are you here speaking on behalf of God's authority, since you're a human yourself? Or do you think you're somehow above humanity? Barb said: Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. You said: Doesn't the bible say to judge not lest ye be judged? So, what gives you the right to judge me by telling me I have to feel terrible about myself if I'm not a Christian Barb said: Where did I say you need to feel terrible about yourself? In fact some of the anger you have shared against "religions" God has already told us about in scriptures. There are so-called Christians out there who are judgmental and hurtful and they aren't Christians, according to the Word of God because they aren't displaying the fruits of the spirit. Rom 14:10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. Rom 14:11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. Rom 14:12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God. Rom 14:13 Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way. You said: and that I can only have freedom in your religion? I don't know about you, but this sounds like the talk of someone who thinks they're a "true" Christian to me. Barb said" I'll share the scriptures and you decide, okay? Joh 8:31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; Joh 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. You said: What gives you the right to tell us that none of us here are good and only you are? And if you think you're the only one glorified, the bible says you're a liar since it says there is no one that's righteous and that includes you. So, why don't you go pluck the shard out of your own eye before you pluck the shard out of ours and stop acting like a big-headed hypocrite? QUOTE Barb said: I've not said that any of you are not good, nor have I said that I am good. I've said to seek God, He is good, that I know is Truth and I've said count every "man", that includes men and women...it's short for mankind liars. I can't tell you the Truth any more than you can tell me the Truth, but God is Truth and He promised to show us the Truth, liberally, when we seek for it. James 1:5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. It’s all about glorifying our Father, in heaven, not any one person, ever. You said: Then what gives you the right to give us your approval? Barb said: Where have I given you my approval? You said: It sounds more like you're a slave to judgmental attitudes and hypocrisy to me than "freedom" to me. Barb said: I'm sorry you feel that way. God still loves you! You said: Then you must not be a "true" Christian either since you have displayed none of these qualities since you've been here on this site and all your posts in this thread have been nothing but judgmental, hypocritical, and arrogant. Barb said: Again, I'm sorry you feel that way. God still loves you! You said: You don't know me either, hypocrite, so what gives you the right to tell me that I should feel terrible or that I'm not a good person? Barb said: I didn't say you were terrible and not a good person, where did you read that? You said: You're right, remind me not to listen to anything you say then since you're a human too and you're arguing from the traditions of humanity as well and are nothing more than a deceiver. And why does your post reek of sexism against women since you only mention men in your posts? Barb said: I mentioned above that when I've used "man" it means mankind, both men and women. I'm sorry it appeared I only meant men. That's not the case. I'll share God's Word. Love, Barb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astreja Posted November 9, 2008 Share Posted November 9, 2008 God teaches us in Revelation 2,3... We are no longer Christians here. We do not consider the Bible to be a credible source of information. Furthermore, you have no proof that your god actually exists. I don't recall telling you that you were wrong, but I do believe I am correct... Works out to the same thing. I'll share the scriptures and you decide, okay? No; we'd rather talk to you, not to a book that we have discarded as superstitious nonsense. I've said to seek God, He is good, that I know is Truth... {Emphasis Mine} I doubt very much that you 'know' this. Say that you believe this and it will vastly improve your credibility here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwc Posted November 9, 2008 Share Posted November 9, 2008 God did share with us something we can see in the True believer... Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Gal 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. Jesus said we'll know them by their fruit...He meant the fruits of the spirit listed above...if you don't see that...then they aren't true believers or they are new believers learning their walk with Jesus... Absolutely you couldn't tell me if I was or wasn't a true Christian, firstly because you don't know me... Ahhh...thanks for posting this. It was very nice of you. But this is the test to see if someone possesses a "fruit" of the "spirit" as you pointed out. Here's the test for "true xians:" 1 John 2 27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. ... 29 If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him. 1 John 3 3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure. 4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. 5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. 6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. 7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. 8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 1 John 5 17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death. 18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not. It's pretty cut and dry. You're either sinless, and of this god, or you're not. And the magic annointing teaches you everything you need to know. Not people. That would be silly. Or so the person who wrote this taught the anointed ones who received it. There's also lots of great stuff in there like hate being the same as murder too but that's another topic I would think... mwc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neon Genesis Posted November 9, 2008 Author Share Posted November 9, 2008 Barb says: God teaches us in Revelation 2,3 that there are seven different "types" of churches, today. Of those seven different "types" of churches, there are two types that He is pleased with. They are united, but "5" different types of churches, are not pleasing completely to God. They have a few things correct, but not all. So, many who are calling themselves Christians could quite possibly be "goats", but there are those in each "type" of church who will overcome. Not my words, the Word of God'sWhat makes you think you're the one who has everything correct and everyone else is wrong? Aren't you judging the other churches even though the bible says to judge not lest ye be judged? And what makes you think your interpretation of the bible is God's word and not your own? I fail to see how you're somehow more special and different than any other Christian who claims they have the "truth." I don't recall telling you that you were wrong, but I do believe I am correctThat's the same thing and you're a hypocrite. You did to say we were wrong. You said yourself in your previous post You seem to know some scriptures...ask God to reveal His truth to you...not what some "traditions of men" in some deceived church may or may not have taught you...Since you think we were taught the "traditions of men" and that we came from deceived churches, then you think we're wrong, and you're a liar. but 1 Corinthians 10 teaches me to take heed lest I fall, so I've shared God's Word with you, in God's Word there's Truth and only One who guides us into all Truth and that's the Holy Spirit. I can teach nothing, but I can talk about Scriptures.Joh 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. As Pilate asked in the bible, "what is truth?" Define truth first, then we'll talk. Barb said: Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. What does that have anything to do with my question? Where did I say you need to feel terrible about yourself?You did right here If I believed you, I'd feel pretty terrible about myself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neon Genesis Posted November 9, 2008 Author Share Posted November 9, 2008 There are so-called Christians out there who are judgmental and hurtful and they aren't Christians, according to the Word of God because they aren't displaying the fruits of the spirit.You don't seem to realize you're one of those judgmental Christians yourself and you have yet to display any fruits of the spirit since you've been here. And if you're a "true" Christian, can you drink poison and not die, since the bible says you will know who the true Christians are because they can drink poison without dying in Mark 16:17-18? These signs will accompany those who have believed: (V)in My name they will cast out demons, they will (W)speak with new tongues; 18they will (X)pick up serpents, and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not hurt them; they will (Y)lay hands on the sick, and they will recover." I'll share the scriptures and you decide, okay?You can't use the bible to prove the bible is true. That's called circular logic and it proves nothing. And I've already looked at the scriptures and reached the conclusion that the bible is not the inerrant word of God. Have you truly looked at the scriptures yourself? Barb said: I've not said that any of you are not good, nor have I said that I am good.Yes, you did. You said so yourself right here Freedom to be all that I can be, in world that has chosen to walk away from good and glorify themselves...If you're really a "true" Christian, can you stop using dishonest tactics and make a post without lying? I can't tell you the Truth any more than you can tell me the Truth, but God is Truth and He promised to show us the Truth, liberally, when we seek for it.I thought the bible said to always be prepared to give an answer for the reason for your faith? If you can't tell me the "truth", then you aren't giving me an answer and you aren't following what the bible says, and you are not a true Christian. And I can certainly tell you that it's true that the bible is most certianly not the inerrant word of God and that Christianity is not the one true way. The only truth about God is that unless you can prove the existence of God, then there is no such thing as a one true way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bubbleloulicious Posted November 9, 2008 Share Posted November 9, 2008 Hi, I think the following scriptures will show that Jesus came to cause division... Luk 12:51 Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division: Luk 12:52 For from henceforth there shall be five in one house divided, three against two, and two against three. Luk 12:53 The father shall be divided against the son, and the son against the father; the mother against the daughter, and the daughter against the mother; the mother in law against her daughter in law, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. .God told us many antiChrists are in the world today. They come in Jesus' name and claim to be the followers of Christ and there is no fruit in them... Love, Barb Barb, Could the "division" show that there is more in being "one" than in being "many"? Look at what happens when there are many involved. One who stands alone is more difficult to divide, than when there are many. Just a thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BarbB Posted November 10, 2008 Share Posted November 10, 2008 You said: We are no longer Christians here. We do not consider the Bible to be a credible source of information. Furthermore, you have no proof that your god actually exists. Barb said: I do have proof and He asks us to prove Him and so I have and know. You said and quoted me: QUOTE I don't recall telling you that you were wrong, but I do believe I am correct... Works out to the same thing. Barb said: Not to me. You said: No; we'd rather talk to you, not to a book that we have discarded as superstitious nonsense. Barb said: Thank you for wanting to talk to me, that’s nice. You said: I doubt very much that you 'know' this. Say that you believe this and it will vastly improve your credibility here. Barb said: I know that God the Father, God the Son and the Holy Spirit are real, no doubting, absolutely without any doubt. Would you like me to share my testimony? mwc You said: Ahhh...thanks for posting this. It was very nice of you. But this is the test to see if someone possesses a "fruit" of the "spirit" as you pointed out. Barb said: Who in the world told you that one? That’s not God’s Truth, but it is easy to see how the following scriptures can be misunderstood. Christians sin and we are told anyone who believes they don’t sin are liars. Allow me to point out some key statements in the scriptures you have provided to show the actual Truth. You said: Here's the test for "true xians:" Barb said: No it isn’t-- You shared: 1 John 2 27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. Barb said: The anointing referred to here is the Holy Spirit. I have already shared scriptures to show no one, not me can reveal the truth to anyone. The Truth is spiritually received, through the Holy Spirit. Notice there’s a condition, that we abide in Him. Meaning we have some work to do here, it’s not the magic fairy telling us everything, we need to at least attempt to learn. You shared: 29 If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him. Barb said: Again there’s a condition. If we believe our Lord is righteous, then we understand the rest of the scripture. You shared: 1 John 3 3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure. Barb said: Notice again a condition. We need to walk the walk, so to speak. We work on improving who we are, once we have this hope in us. It’s a process that takes a life-time, we are being helped by God to purify ourselves and to be in the likeness of Jesus. You shared: 4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. 5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. Barb said: God gave us a list of things that please Him, known as the laws and statutes. When the least of these is ignored by anyone, they have sinned. And there’s not one who hasn’t sinned. We’ve all fallen short. Those who believe, as scriptures tell us, “whosoever will” believed that Jesus is, who He said He is, then we aren’t seen by God as sinners, but as the saints of God. Some churches only allow Sainthood to people they chose. God says that all those who believe in Jesus are the saints of God. God sees no sin, just pure children of God when we sin, because Jesus died for those sins. You shared: 6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. Barb said: Now the reason that someone in Christ would love to see all accept Jesus, is because of this scripture. Those who are in Christ—believers—are without sin, even though they do sin, at times and repent. Those who don’t believe Jesus is the Son of God are still seen as Sinners to our Father. Our Father is a Just Judge and He knows the hearts of people and He knows who are sinning in ignorance and who are willfully being disobedient and He knows who has been taught the wrong way and He has compassion on His lost sheep, in the world today, as well as yesterday and tomorrow. Not one person isn’t being watched by our Father. You shared: 7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. 8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Barb said: God teaches us that the sin in this world was brought into the world by Satan. The devil is very real and works diligently with his fallen angels to tempt people—both believers and nonbelievers to sin. You shared” 9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. The words “he cannot sin” may give a confusing message. What God is saying here is that in Christ, God doesn’t see His children committing sin, but He sees them through the sacrifice Jesus made for them, to abolish sin. 1 John 5 17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death. 18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not. You said: It's pretty cut and dry. You're either sinless, and of this god, or you're not. And the magic annointing teaches you everything you need to know. Not people. That would be silly. Or so the person who wrote this taught the anointed ones who received it. Barb said: The anointing is the Holy Spirit, He being God will teach you things to come and things that were. God doesn’t want anyone to choose Him because they are afraid of Hell or eternal damnation. That would be a choice out of fear, not a free-will choice. God wants people to choose Him because they want to get to know Him. It takes a lot of study to know the heart of God. It’s not something that you can pull out a scripture and stand on it like some religions do. We are being transformed into Christ’s likeness from glory to glory and it takes our life to do it, not two minutes in the Bible. Even the Apostle Paul after he spent years killing Christians didn’t go out to share the gospel, until he spent three years studying the scriptures with the Holy Spirit. Because someone calls themselve a Christian. You want to be careful not to ever believe them, but take it to the Word of God to test the spirits. That’s what God says to do. You shared: There's also lots of great stuff in there like hate being the same as murder too but that's another topic I would think... Barb said: It’s a huge topic and many in churches today do not understand when God taught the difference between killing out of defence and murder. It’s a shame because more troubling times are coming and God doesn’t want whimps working for Him. He wants those who are strong. That’s why He’s had them go through some tough times to prepare them for the days ahead so they can rest in God’s promises to His children. He’ll never leave or forsake them. He promises to provide for them and yet many just can’t accept that and they try of themselves to fix their trials, only to find out that their trials get worse. In preparation for the days ahead, like the one world economic collapse, they’ll be running scared and yet, God told us how to prepare for the days to come, in scriptures and they wouldn’t study. That’s why God tells us by learning the Word it is sweet like honey but makes the belly bitter. Those who study it, well, they see that many will be running here and there in the days to come looking for His answers and they just won’t find them. Amos 8: 11 will be upon them. Neon Genesis You said: What makes you think you're the one who has everything correct and everyone else is wrong? Aren't you judging the other churches even though the bible says to judge not lest ye be judged? And what makes you think your interpretation of the bible is God's word and not your own? I fail to see how you're somehow more special and different than any other Christian who claims they have the "truth." Barb said” I’m not more special than anyone, and there are many people at different levels of understanding the Truth, it’s a process. God teaches us who He will teach— Isa 28:9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. Isa 28:10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: It takes time to understand God’s heart. Here a little and there a little. It’s who wants to search diligently for the Truth who will find it. And why not just give everyone everything at once. Because He doesn’t want lazy people. He wants those who aren’t afraid of a little work. The laborers in God’s Word are few. Not many people want to get to know God, not even those who call themselves Christians. You said: That's the same thing and you're a hypocrite. You did to say we were wrong. You said yourself in your previous post QUOTE You seem to know some scriptures...ask God to reveal His truth to you...not what some "traditions of men" in some deceived church may or may not have taught you... Since you think we were taught the "traditions of men" and that we came from deceived churches, then you think we're wrong, and you're a liar. QUOTE Barb said: It’s not the same thing to me at all and I made a general statement. I don’t know your history but I’ve read some here and some have been taught traditions of men. Thank you for calling me a liar. As God said, count every man a liar, you too and seek God’s Truth, He’s the one who created you. That’s awesome!! You got it!! I’m a liar, you are a liar, but God is Truth! Yes! Praise God! Good stuff!! You said” As Pilate asked in the bible, "what is truth?" Define truth first, then we'll talk. Barb said: God is Truth, man is not! You said” What does that have anything to do with my question? Barb said” Because my words mean didly, but God’s Word is everything! You said: Where did I say you need to feel terrible about yourself? You did right here QUOTE If I believed you, I'd feel pretty terrible about myself . Barb said: I didn’t tell you to feel terrible I said if I believed you IIIII would feel terrible about myself. You called me a bunch of rude names. I don’t believe those names because I’m God’s child. Your name-calling doesn’t make me feel bad, just sad for you that you believe you have to resort to that way of attacking someone to get your point across. But I love your zeal!! When Paul was killing Christians he had that zeal and once God gripped his heart and Paul saw the errors of his way, God used him Mightily You said with my quote: You said: You don't seem to realize you're one of those judgmental Christians yourself and you have yet to display any fruits of the spirit since you've been here. Barb said” I’m sorry you see it that way! You said: And if you're a "true" Christian, can you drink poison and not die, since the bible says you will know who the true Christians are because they can drink poison without dying in Mark 16:17-18? QUOTE These signs will accompany those who have believed: (V)in My name they will cast out demons, they will (W)speak with new tongues; 18they will (X)pick up serpents, and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not hurt them; they will (Y)lay hands on the sick, and they will recover." Barb said: Throughout scriptures you will read of the poison and the serpents. God is speaking about dealing with devils as the serpents and as far as the drinking poison.—God is talking about false doctrine. You see He teaches us to hunger and thirst for the Word of God and there are those in the world serving us poison. God makes common sense, so when someone wants to find His Truth they will find it. Isa 28:9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. Isa 28:10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little You said: You can't use the bible to prove the bible is true. That's called circular logic and it proves nothing. And I've already looked at the scriptures and reached the conclusion that the bible is not the inerrant word of God. Have you truly looked at the scriptures yourself? Barb said” I have read the scriptures and continue to study scriptures—the key word here is study—The scriptures have been translated from three other languages, then retranslated from latin to English and then in some of the newer translations screwed up even more. It’s important to have God prove the scriptures, not man and that’s why I share those that have been proved and God can speak through any interpretation He chooses to. You shared: QUOTE Barb said: I've not said that any of you are not good, nor have I said that I am good. Yes, you did. You said so yourself right here QUOTE Freedom to be all that I can be, in world that has chosen to walk away from good and glorify themselves... Barb said: Ah, that’s a general statement—do you glorify yourself?? I don’t know that, do I? So, I wasn’t pointing directly to you, again it’s a general statement. You shared: If you're really a "true" Christian, can you stop using dishonest tactics and make a post without lying? Barb said” That’s cute! I promised when I signed the agreement that I’d post what I believed to be true. You decide! You shared: QUOTE I can't tell you the Truth any more than you can tell me the Truth, but God is Truth and He promised to show us the Truth, liberally, when we seek for it. I thought the bible said to always be prepared to give an answer for the reason for your faith? If you can't tell me the "truth", then you aren't giving me an answer and you aren't following what the bible says, and you are not a true Christian. And I can certainly tell you that it's true that the bible is most certianly not the inerrant word of God and that Christianity is not the one true way. The only truth about God is that unless you can prove the existence of God, then there is no such thing as a one true way. Barb said: I can come on a thread where someone said Jesus said this and then I can share what Jesus said and then you may come to your own conclusions using whatever means of instruction sits well with your soul. But it is the Holy Spirit who teaches you and me the Truth. Without Him there’s no Truth. Barb said: there seems to be a lot of anger, within you, is this Truth? If so, please it’s not healthy—be at peace my friend!! Although Jesus causes division in the churches, He came to give us peace in our hearts. Be at peace Bubbleloulicious said: Barb, Could the "division" show that there is more in being "one" than in being "many"? Look at what happens when there are many involved. One who stands alone is more difficult to divide, than when there are many. Just a thought. Barb said: It’s a good thought! I’ll sit with that one for a little!! Thank you! Love, Barb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astreja Posted November 10, 2008 Share Posted November 10, 2008 I do have proof... Really? Scientifically validated, peer-reviewed proof? You'll be the first person in human history, then. I don't recall telling you that you were wrong, but I do believe I am correct... Works out to the same thing. Not to me. If we perceive it as an insult, then to us it is an insult. Please try to comprehend this. I know that God the Father, God the Son and the Holy Spirit are real, no doubting, absolutely without any doubt. Would you like me to share my testimony? Dear, sweet Uncle Loki... No, no, a thousand times no. Personal testimony and subjective feelings are 100% inadmissible as evidence in this forum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MathGeek Posted November 10, 2008 Share Posted November 10, 2008 Dear Barb, This is from an essay I typed just today on this very topic...the entirety of it is here From any rational perspective, it is clearly obvious that all Christian sects share some basic tenets that do not change, which is why many Christians keep spouting the line about there being "unity in diversity" within the confines of the outside observer's catch-all construct. Immediately, the outsider might think that becoming a Christian would be loser's prospect because he is unsure upon which horse he or she should wager. Now, if the outsider was really inquisitive, he or she would crack open the Bible and notice the lines that Jesus said in Luke 12:51-53... Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division: For from henceforth there shall be five in one house divided, three against two, and two against three. The father shall be divided against the son, and the son against the father; the mother against the daughter, and the daughter against the mother; the mother in law against her daughter in law, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. So, the outsider may think this: Jesus Christ came to bring division therefore there is a precedent for the division in the church, therefore there is no possible way to have a totally unifying message. This hypothetical line of reasoning may explain why the gaps occurs in our graphical union. The outsider is somewhat confused now. How should our outsider know which path to follow? Let's say our outsider flipped some pages further in the New Testament and landed at Galatians chapter 1. Galatians 1:6-9 reads... I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned! This leaves our outsider further confused. What exactly constitutes a false gospel? If both denominations preach Christ rose from the dead as their foundation, how are they both wrong? If denomination says that they have a teaching authority called the Magisteareum that interprets scripture and another says they have their tradition of "Scripture Alone", how should outsider discern which one is correct? This confusion is unbearable to our outsider, so he or she reads furthers onward. Galatians 1:13-17 states further... For you have heard of my previous way of life in Judaism, how intensely I persecuted the church of God and tried to destroy it. I was advancing in Judaism beyond many Jews of my own age and was extremely zealous for the traditions of my fathers. But when God, who set me apart from birth and called me by his grace, was pleased to reveal his Son in me so that I might preach him among the Gentiles, I did not consult any man, nor did I go up to Jerusalem to see those who were apostles before I was, but I went immediately into Arabia and later returned to Damascus. This passage leaves our outsider rather flummoxed, left with a mental error comparable to one that says "does not compute". So, our outsider is now told that the newest apostle received a revelation that was special and seperate from the ones given to the original 11 apostles. Let us assume that our observer has a classical Western post-secondary education. He or she asks herself, "why would Jesus Christ do that to his most trusted of disciplines?" She puts the logic together as follows: Jesus Christ picks Paul to spread the message of his Resurrection to the non-Jewish world and yet would not give the same revelation to Peter and the rest of the apostles right away so a council wouldn't have had to been called at Jerusalem? Since Jesus already allowed the Gentiles to have salvation because the foreign woman made the comment about the dogs eating the scraps, what was the point of appointing Saul of Tarsus in the first place? Also, since Paul persecuted the Christians prior to his deconversion, why would any rational person believe this man at all? So, where does this leave our outsider? Likely in a pool of confusion that would make him or her reject it outright Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neon Genesis Posted November 10, 2008 Author Share Posted November 10, 2008 It’s a shame because more troubling times are coming and God doesn’t want whimps working for Him. He wants those who are strong.Since when is being a whimp a sin? I thought Jesus died for everyone, not only strong people? So, now you're saying Christianity is an exclusive country club for strong people? And you still haven't proved you're a Christian by drinking poison and surving like it says true Christians should be able to do in Mark 16:17-18 "These signs will accompany those who have believed: (V)in My name they will cast out demons, they will (W)speak with new tongues; 18they will (X)pick up serpents, and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not hurt them; they will (Y)lay hands on the sick, and they will recover." And please don't give us any nonsense about how this is talking about false doctrines. It says nothing about that in those verses at all and you're making false doctrines up. It says that those who believe will be able to drink poison and survive. Since you claim to believe in Jesus, you should be able to drink poison and survive. If you really believe God only wants strong people, then why don't you stop being a whimp and prove you really believe in Jesus and drink poison and survive? If you can't drink poison and survive and you claim to really believe in the bible, then by the bible's own definition, you are not a Christian and I have no interest in debating this with a hypocrite who claims to be something they're not. I refuse to address the rest of your hypocritical post until you prove you're a Christian by drinking poison and surviving. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deva Posted November 10, 2008 Share Posted November 10, 2008 Speaking of pools of confusion: Barb said: The anointing is the Holy Spirit, He being God will teach you things to come and things that were. God doesn’t want anyone to choose Him because they are afraid of Hell or eternal damnation. That would be a choice out of fear, not a free-will choice. God wants people to choose Him because they want to get to know Him. It takes a lot of study to know the heart of God. It’s not something that you can pull out a scripture and stand on it like some religions do. We are being transformed into Christ’s likeness from glory to glory and it takes our life to do it, not two minutes in the Bible. Even the Apostle Paul after he spent years killing Christians didn’t go out to share the gospel, until he spent three years studying the scriptures with the Holy Spirit. Because someone calls themselve a Christian. You want to be careful not to ever believe them, but take it to the Word of God to test the spirits. That’s what God says to do. A "free-will choice" between eternity in hell and heaven? That's "free" in what universe? How is it free? Yikes!! Barb, could you do me a favor and use the word "said" instead of "share"? Maybe its just me, but "share" is one of those Christianese words that just grates like chalk on a blackboard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwc Posted November 11, 2008 Share Posted November 11, 2008 You said:Ahhh...thanks for posting this. It was very nice of you. But this is the test to see if someone possesses a "fruit" of the "spirit" as you pointed out. Barb said: Who in the world told you that one? That’s not God’s Truth, but it is easy to see how the following scriptures can be misunderstood. Christians sin and we are told anyone who believes they don’t sin are liars. Allow me to point out some key statements in the scriptures you have provided to show the actual Truth. You said: Here's the test for "true xians:" Barb said: No it isn’t-- I'm quite shocked to see you took the time to actually reply and with quite a bit of detail too. This rarely happens. Lets see what you know of this "God's Truth" and if your answers can move beyond "No it isn't." Hopefully I managed to get all the quotes worked out as well... You shared:1 John 2 27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. Barb said: The anointing referred to here is the Holy Spirit. I have already shared scriptures to show no one, not me can reveal the truth to anyone. The Truth is spiritually received, through the Holy Spirit. Notice there’s a condition, that we abide in Him. Meaning we have some work to do here, it’s not the magic fairy telling us everything, we need to at least attempt to learn. If you cannot reveal the "truth" then why the attempt to explain anything at all? In the same vein if the "truth" of this is revealed to you then the explanation should be quite easy to pass along to others since you possess clarity. Either way it makes no difference. Anyhow, the word "anointing" here is "chrisma" as in the sense of "rubbing" or "smearing" which is an odd thing for the HS to be doing to people. Going around rubbing/smearing up on them. There's no condition beyond the "rubbing." I understand that you're trying to turn this "abiding" into an activity but, well, perhaps this bit of commentary can say it better than I: "In the mystic phraseology of John, God is said μένειν in Christ, i. e. to dwell as it were within him, to be continually operative in him by his divine influence and energy, Jn. xiv. 10; Christians are said μένειν ἐν τῷ θεῷ, to be rooted as it were in him, knit to him by the spirit they have received from him, 1 Jn. ii. 6, 24, 27; iii. 6; hence one is said μένειν in Christ or in God, and conversely Christ or God is said μένειν in one:" That's from the Thayer Lexicon. In this sense the "anointing" creates a sort of "symbiotic" relationship with this god and as such it dwells within you and you within it. You shared:29 If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him. Barb said: Again there’s a condition. If we believe our Lord is righteous, then we understand the rest of the scripture. You shared: 1 John 3 3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure. Barb said: Notice again a condition. We need to walk the walk, so to speak. We work on improving who we are, once we have this hope in us. It’s a process that takes a life-time, we are being helped by God to purify ourselves and to be in the likeness of Jesus. You misunderstand verse 29. It is "If...therefore." So if you "know" (you say "believe" which is false as the Greek is "eidēte" where we get our modern word "video" through the Latin...which, I digress, works out to "perceive," "understand," or "know") therefore you then know (same word) that anyone that is "righteous" is born of him. It means that he is righteous so those that do righteous are also from him. There's nothing to do with scripture in here. It would be nice for you if there were. Verse 3 is referring back to verse 2: 2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. (KJV) No mention of a "jesus." The "hope" is the positive expectation of this future event. So the "home in him" would be "hope in one's self" (ie. I contain hope that this event will occur so I will make myself pure just like "god" is pure). To purify yourself, as a Jew for example, could be done via ritual bath. A baptism would be enough for a xian (in some circles). This does not mention an ongoing process. You shared:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. 5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. Barb said: God gave us a list of things that please Him, known as the laws and statutes. When the least of these is ignored by anyone, they have sinned. And there’s not one who hasn’t sinned. We’ve all fallen short. Those who believe, as scriptures tell us, “whosoever will” believed that Jesus is, who He said He is, then we aren’t seen by God as sinners, but as the saints of God. Some churches only allow Sainthood to people they chose. God says that all those who believe in Jesus are the saints of God. God sees no sin, just pure children of God when we sin, because Jesus died for those sins. You shared: 6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. Barb said: Now the reason that someone in Christ would love to see all accept Jesus, is because of this scripture. Those who are in Christ—believers—are without sin, even though they do sin, at times and repent. Those who don’t believe Jesus is the Son of God are still seen as Sinners to our Father. Our Father is a Just Judge and He knows the hearts of people and He knows who are sinning in ignorance and who are willfully being disobedient and He knows who has been taught the wrong way and He has compassion on His lost sheep, in the world today, as well as yesterday and tomorrow. Not one person isn’t being watched by our Father. I'm glad you've reminded me of the Levitical laws. Isn't it just sinful when people mix fabrics on the same garment? *shudder* To hell with them, right? As to the rest of that...well...let's just move on. What you're saying is you have no explanation for verse 6 and instead choose to give a mini-sermon. Remember the explanation for the word "abideth?" I offered one by a real theologian and everything (not to mention by nifty take on it too). Those who "abideth" (as in have this two-way bonded type relationship with this god...a part of it is in them and a part them is in the god...an exchange of sorts) do not sin. Those who do sin "therefore" (it's another one of those types of statements our author enjoys) logically must not know of this god (he has never literally seen this god with his eyes and he doesn't know of this god otherwise...this would imply visions unless these people were actually getting physical manifestations). You shared:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. 8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Barb said: God teaches us that the sin in this world was brought into the world by Satan. The devil is very real and works diligently with his fallen angels to tempt people—both believers and nonbelievers to sin. You shared” 9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. The words “he cannot sin” may give a confusing message. What God is saying here is that in Christ, God doesn’t see His children committing sin, but He sees them through the sacrifice Jesus made for them, to abolish sin. So you separate the verses to miss the point entirely. I guess I'll have to just deal with such things. Yeah, the devil is bad. It would even appear from the context that the "son of god" was "manifested" after the mean old devil in order to take care of him...but that couldn't be...to come after the devil. So he was "manifested" before the mean old devil got manifested in order to "destroy the works of the devil" but that would mean that he was "manifested" pre-emptively or in anticipation of said devil. But that would just be silly. To create a weapon then create the enemy to use it again. Only the truly insane would go about such a thing. So lets move on to the "confusing message" of "he cannot sin:" 9 pas ho gegennēmenos ek tou theou hamartian ou poiei, hoti sperma autou en autōi menei· kai ou dunatai hamartanein, hoti ek tou theou gegennētai. I'm looking but I don't see anything that says that this god only "sees" those who are in this "christ" not commit sin. But lets say it's in there (it's not) then you can sin, not pray for any forgiveness, because as you say the god simply does not see you committing any sins anyhow. You're "covered." So sin because it's not a sin. Or are you trying to say that if you sin and don't ask for forgiveness that "christ" won't cover you anymore? That's one free one. Make it count, right? Or does this "christ" know ahead when you're going to sin and only cover you if he knows you're going to ask for forgiveness? A sign of sincerity? Or "accidental" sins? Your way has lots of "loopholes" and "conjecture." The way outlined here is absolute. You cannot sin if this god truly resides in you. Thus the verse you lumped with the devil and that is those who do righteousness just like "he" is righteous (another if...therefore). 1 John 517 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death. 18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not. You said: It's pretty cut and dry. You're either sinless, and of this god, or you're not. And the magic annointing teaches you everything you need to know. Not people. That would be silly. Or so the person who wrote this taught the anointed ones who received it. Barb said: The anointing is the Holy Spirit, He being God will teach you things to come and things that were. God doesn’t want anyone to choose Him because they are afraid of Hell or eternal damnation. That would be a choice out of fear, not a free-will choice. God wants people to choose Him because they want to get to know Him. It takes a lot of study to know the heart of God. It’s not something that you can pull out a scripture and stand on it like some religions do. We are being transformed into Christ’s likeness from glory to glory and it takes our life to do it, not two minutes in the Bible. Even the Apostle Paul after he spent years killing Christians didn’t go out to share the gospel, until he spent three years studying the scriptures with the Holy Spirit. Because someone calls themselve a Christian. You want to be careful not to ever believe them, but take it to the Word of God to test the spirits. That’s what God says to do. I'm testing you. Your answers are nonsensical doctrine, which bodes well for you being xian, but I'm not sure if you're a True Christian[tm]. You shared:There's also lots of great stuff in there like hate being the same as murder too but that's another topic I would think... Barb said: It’s a huge topic and many in churches today do not understand when God taught the difference between killing out of defence and murder. It’s a shame because more troubling times are coming and God doesn’t want whimps working for Him. He wants those who are strong. That’s why He’s had them go through some tough times to prepare them for the days ahead so they can rest in God’s promises to His children. He’ll never leave or forsake them. He promises to provide for them and yet many just can’t accept that and they try of themselves to fix their trials, only to find out that their trials get worse. In preparation for the days ahead, like the one world economic collapse, they’ll be running scared and yet, God told us how to prepare for the days to come, in scriptures and they wouldn’t study. That’s why God tells us by learning the Word it is sweet like honey but makes the belly bitter. Those who study it, well, they see that many will be running here and there in the days to come looking for His answers and they just won’t find them. Amos 8: 11 will be upon them. You misunderstand. I'm still only talking of 1 John: 15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him. (KJV) Brother, in this case, doesn't have to mean a literal blood relative brother. Also, if you think this is the first (or second, or third) economic disaster of this type, you're mistaken. It's happened before. It'll likely happen again. It happened before the precious book of Revelation even came into being. Focus on imaginary futures instead of real history. That's the way to solve problems. mwc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hineni Posted November 11, 2008 Share Posted November 11, 2008 Welcome, BarbB, Seems you do have your hands full with all that's been given you to answer to, so I'll just ask this one little question as not to burden you any further, or more than you can stand. And excuse me, as I know this is simplistic, but made me wonder after I read it. BarbB, you said: "Paul spent 3 years studying the scriptures with the Holy Spirit" My question: What scriptures are you referring to...what scriptures did Paul spend 3 years studying? Thanks, Hineni Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted November 11, 2008 Share Posted November 11, 2008 BarbB, you said:"Paul spent 3 years studying the scriptures with the Holy Spirit" My question: What scriptures are you referring to...what scriptures did Paul spend 3 years studying? I can answer that, it would be the fables. The fables which the Jewish religious believed in. Quite interesting. The same books that were so important to Paul, also were the ones he rejected: Titus 114. Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth. 15. Unto the pure all things are pure : but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled . 16. They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate. So is the Torah from God, or is it not? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hineni Posted November 11, 2008 Share Posted November 11, 2008 Ahhhhhh!, you spoiled it, Han!!!! Hineni Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bubbleloulicious Posted November 11, 2008 Share Posted November 11, 2008 The anointing is the Holy Spirit, He being God will teach you things to come and things that were. God doesn’t want anyone to choose Him because they are afraid of Hell or eternal damnation. That would be a choice out of fear, not a free-will choice. God wants people to choose Him because they want to get to know Him. It takes a lot of study to know the heart of God. It’s not something that you can pull out a scripture and stand on it like some religions do. We are being transformed into Christ’s likeness from glory to glory and it takes our life to do it, not two minutes in the Bible. Even the Apostle Paul after he spent years killing Christians didn’t go out to share the gospel, until he spent three years studying the scriptures with the Holy Spirit. Because someone calls themselve a Christian. You want to be careful not to ever believe them, but take it to the Word of God to test the spirits. That’s what God says to do. So, one should not take anything to another person for counsel, yes? What IS the Holy Spirit, Barb? I don't understand. Why the need to study a book? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BigOlBiggenzDeluxe Posted November 12, 2008 Share Posted November 12, 2008 BarbB, I have a scripture for you: "Mat 10:14 And whosoever, shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet. " If we ever see you here again, you're not a true christian. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BarbB Posted November 15, 2008 Share Posted November 15, 2008 You said: Really? Scientifically validated, peer-reviewed proof? You'll be the first person in human history, then. Barb said: Oh I don’t think I’m the first. You said: If we perceive it as an insult, then to us it is an insult. Please try to comprehend Barb said: That’s why there’s no truth apart from God’s Truth— Jer 9:3 And they bend their tongues like their bow for lies: but they are not valiant for the truth upon the earth; for they proceed from evil to evil, and they know not me, saith the LORD. Jer 9:4 Take ye heed every one of his neighbour, and trust ye not in any brother: for every brother will utterly supplant, and every neighbour will walk with slanders. Jer 9:5 And they will deceive every one his neighbour, and will not speak the truth: they have taught their tongue to speak lies, and weary themselves to commit iniquity. You said: Dear, sweet Uncle Loki... No, no, a thousand times no. Personal testimony and subjective feelings are 100% inadmissible as evidence in this forum. Barb said: Okay doky! MathGeek Group Dear Barb, This is from an essay I typed just today on this very topic...the entirety of it is here From any rational perspective, it is clearly obvious that all Christian sects share some basic tenets that do not change, which is why many Christians keep spouting the line about there being "unity in diversity" within the confines of the outside observer's catch-all construct. Immediately, the outsider might think that becoming a Christian would be loser's prospect because he is unsure upon which horse he or she should wager. Now, if the outsider was really inquisitive, he or she would crack open the Bible and notice the lines that Jesus said in Luke 12:51-53... Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division: For from henceforth there shall be five in one house divided, three against two, and two against three. The father shall be divided against the son, and the son against the father; the mother against the daughter, and the daughter against the mother; the mother in law against her daughter in law, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. So, the outsider may think this: Jesus Christ came to bring division therefore there is a precedent for the division in the church, therefore there is no possible way to have a totally unifying message. This hypothetical line of reasoning may explain why the gaps occurs in our graphical union. The outsider is somewhat confused now. How should our outsider know which path to follow? Let's say our outsider flipped some pages further in the New Testament and landed at Galatians chapter 1. Galatians 1:6-9 reads... I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned! This leaves our outsider further confused. What exactly constitutes a false gospel? If both denominations preach Christ rose from the dead as their foundation, how are they both wrong? If denomination says that they have a teaching authority called the Magisteareum that interprets scripture and another says they have their tradition of "Scripture Alone", how should outsider discern which one is correct? This confusion is unbearable to our outsider, so he or she reads furthers onward. Galatians 1:13-17 states further... For you have heard of my previous way of life in Judaism, how intensely I persecuted the church of God and tried to destroy it. I was advancing in Judaism beyond many Jews of my own age and was extremely zealous for the traditions of my fathers. But when God, who set me apart from birth and called me by his grace, was pleased to reveal his Son in me so that I might preach him among the Gentiles, I did not consult any man, nor did I go up to Jerusalem to see those who were apostles before I was, but I went immediately into Arabia and later returned to Damascus. This passage leaves our outsider rather flummoxed, left with a mental error comparable to one that says "does not compute". So, our outsider is now told that the newest apostle received a revelation that was special and seperate from the ones given to the original 11 apostles. Let us assume that our observer has a classical Western post-secondary education. He or she asks herself, "why would Jesus Christ do that to his most trusted of disciplines?" She puts the logic together as follows: Jesus Christ picks Paul to spread the message of his Resurrection to the non-Jewish world and yet would not give the same revelation to Peter and the rest of the apostles right away so a council wouldn't have had to been called at Jerusalem? Since Jesus already allowed the Gentiles to have salvation because the foreign woman made the comment about the dogs eating the scraps, what was the point of appointing Saul of Tarsus in the first place? Also, since Paul persecuted the Christians prior to his deconversion, why would any rational person believe this man at all? So, where does this leave our outsider? Likely in a pool of confusion that would make him or her reject it outright Barb said: You are speculating on what a nonbeliever might say. The only One to teach scriptures is the Holy Spirit. The only way to understand doctrine is to be weened from the milk of the Word. First things first. A nonbeliever will not understand scriptures without acceptance that Jesus is who He said He is. If someone sincerely wants to know who He is they need only to call on Him and ask, seek and knock for His Truth. Then with the help of the Holy Spirit, they can discern the scriptures spiritually, for the scriptures can only be understood with the spirit, otherwise they are merely words on the page. Without the Holy Spirits enlightenment they mean nothing to someone who doesn’t believe. Romans 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 1Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. The Apostles before Saul—named Paul—had Jesus with them to teach them the doctrine. Paul then learned from the Holy Spirit because Jesus sits on the right hand of our Father. The three are One. So, the Apostles and Paul learned from the same teacher and we learn from Him, also. Neon Genesis You said: Since when is being a whimp a sin? I thought Jesus died for everyone, not only strong people? So, now you're saying Christianity is an exclusive country club for strong people? And you still haven't proved you're a Christian by drinking poison and surving like it says true Christians should be able to do in Mark 16:17-18 QUOTE "These signs will accompany those who have believed: (V)in My name they will cast out demons, they will (W)speak with new tongues; 18they will (X)pick up serpents, and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not hurt them; they will (Y)lay hands on the sick, and they will recover." And please don't give us any nonsense about how this is talking about false doctrines. It says nothing about that in those verses at all and you're making false doctrines up. It says that those who believe will be able to drink poison and survive. Since you claim to believe in Jesus, you should be able to drink poison and survive. If you really believe God only wants strong people, then why don't you stop being a whimp and prove you really believe in Jesus and drink poison and survive? If you can't drink poison and survive and you claim to really believe in the bible, then by the bible's own definition, you are not a Christian and I have no interest in debating this with a hypocrite who claims to be something they're not. I refuse to address the rest of your hypocritical post until you prove you're a Christian by drinking poison and surviving. Barb said: God has told us that more difficult times are coming and He is preparing His children for the days ahead. It will take strength to endure what Satan has planned. Not physical strength. It will take spiritual strength. Are you prepared? And prove that I haven’t! DevaLight You said: A "free-will choice" between eternity in hell and heaven? That's "free" in what universe? How is it free? Barb said: The choice isn’t between Heaven and Hell. The choice is between peace and freedom verses fear and bondage. When trials come upon you, this day where is your peace, where is your freedom. When the world’s economy collapses—and I don’t mean the warning we are getting right now, I’m talking about what’s to come, when the entire world’s economy collapses, are you prepared to live during the worst abomination known to man. There’s never been anything like it, yet and there won’t be anything like it again and then we go into one thousand years of living on this earth. Those who chose Jesus will live free, those who didn’t choose and study scriptures to know what was coming will live apart from our Lord. The choice is protection, under His wing, or no protection under Satan’s rule. Not a choice between Heaven and Hell. There are three Hells to be aware of-do you know the differences? You said: Barb, could you do me a favor and use the word "said" instead of "share"? Maybe its just me, but "share" is one of those Christianese words that just grates like chalk on a blackboard. Barb said” I used said when the person was being quoted, but when I posted what I said and them, I wrote shared—when the Bible was being quoted I used “shared” because it wasn’t what the person “said” but what God said. Hope that explains when and why I used said and shared. mwc You said: I'm quite shocked to see you took the time to actually reply and with quite a bit of detail too. This rarely happens. Barb said: Sorry to hear that this rarely happens. You said: Lets see what you know of this "God's Truth" and if your answers can move beyond "No it isn't." Hopefully I managed to get all the quotes worked out as well... QUOTE You shared: 1 John 2 27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. Barb said: The anointing referred to here is the Holy Spirit. I have already shared scriptures to show no one, not me can reveal the truth to anyone. The Truth is spiritually received, through the Holy Spirit. Notice there’s a condition, that we abide in Him. Meaning we have some work to do here, it’s not the magic fairy telling us everything, we need to at least attempt to learn. If you cannot reveal the "truth" then why the attempt to explain anything at all? In the same vein if the "truth" of this is revealed to you then the explanation should be quite easy to pass along to others since you possess clarity. Either way it makes no difference. Barb said: It makes major difference, what do you mean it makes no difference, of course it does. You said: Anyhow, the word "anointing" here is "chrisma" as in the sense of "rubbing" or "smearing" which is an odd thing for the HS to be doing to people. Going around rubbing/smearing up on them. There's no condition beyond the "rubbing." I understand that you're trying to turn this "abiding" into an activity but, well, perhaps this bit of commentary can say it better than I: "In the mystic phraseology of John, God is said µ??e?? in Christ, i. e. to dwell as it were within him, to be continually operative in him by his divine influence and energy, Jn. xiv. 10; Christians are said µ??e?? ?? t? ?e?, to be rooted as it were in him, knit to him by the spirit they have received from him, 1 Jn. ii. 6, 24, 27; iii. 6; hence one is said µ??e?? in Christ or in God, and conversely Christ or God is said µ??e?? in one:" That's from the Thayer Lexicon. In this sense the "anointing" creates a sort of "symbiotic" relationship with this god and as such it dwells within you and you within it. QUOTE Barb said” So where’s the misunderstanding? When we abide in Him, He abides in us. As far as anointing, what does Christ mean to you? Christ is the anointed One—Easton’s Bible dictionary definition. Christ anointed, the Greek translation of the Hebrew word rendered "Messiah" (q.v.), the official title of our Lord, occurring five hundred and fourteen times in the New Testament. It denotes that he was anointed or consecrated to his great redemptive work as Prophet, Priest, and King of his people. He is Jesus the Christ (Acts 17:3; 18:5; Matt. 22:42), the Anointed One. He is thus spoken of by Isaiah (61:1), and by Daniel (9:24-26), who styles him "Messiah the Prince." The Messiah is the same person as "the seed of the woman" (Gen. 3:15), "the seed of Abraham" (Gen. 22:18), the "Prophet like unto Moses" (Deut. 18:15), "the priest after the order of Melchizedek" (Ps. 110:4), "the rod out of the stem of Jesse" (Isa. 11:1, 10), the "Immanuel," the virgin's son (Isa. 7:14), "the branch of Jehovah" (Isa. 4:2), and "the messenger of the covenant" (Mal. 3:1). This is he "of whom Moses in the law and the prophets did write." The Old Testament Scripture is full of prophetic declarations regarding the Great Deliverer and the work he was to accomplish. Jesus the Christ is Jesus the Great Deliverer, the Anointed One, the Saviour of men. This name denotes that Jesus was divinely appointed, commissioned, and accredited as the Saviour of men (Heb. 5:4; Isa. 11:2-4; 49:6; John 5:37; Acts 2:22). To believe that "Jesus is the Christ" is to believe that he is the Anointed, the Messiah of the prophets, the Saviour sent of God, that he was, in a word, what he claimed to be. This is to believe the gospel, by the faith of which alone men can be brought unto God. That Jesus is the Christ is the testimony of God, and the faith of this constitutes a Christian (1 Cor. 12:3; 1 John 5:1) You said: You misunderstand. I'm still only talking of 1 John: 15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him. (KJV) Brother, in this case, doesn't have to mean a literal blood relative brother. Also, if you think this is the first (or second, or third) economic disaster of this type, you're mistaken. It's happened before. It'll likely happen again. It happened before the precious book of Revelation even came into being. Focus on imaginary futures instead of real history. That's the way to solve problems. Barb Said: This depression that’s about to happen in our earth, is nothing to what will happen in the futrue to come. Take heed, get your affairs in order and do not misunnderstand when I say that the world’s economy will collapse. This is nothing. The collapse that is coming will make way for the anti-Christ-those who studied and know the scriptures will be prepared, those who don’t will not be prepared, nor will they know how to survive during these days ahead. They aren’t yet, but they aren’t that far off either. Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. Who do you believe the dead are that those in Christ will be reigning over? People are so afraid of a Hell that they aren’t learning who the dead are for a thousand years. I will study scriptures with you if you’d like, but I’d rather do it God’s Way—line upon line and precept upon precept and allow the Holy Spirit to teach us His Truth. It’s spiritually discerned. I can’t take the book of 1 John out of context from the whole Bible. There are many things in 1 John that have a second and third witness from other authors. It’s important to study scriptures from the first book until the last. And seek the One, the anointing that we receive when we believe to teach us by the Holy Spirit. I don’t mean to igore your previous comments, but I’m running out of time, tonight. I’d like to take more time to go through them with you, if you’d still like to address them. Hineni Welcome, BarbB, Seems you do have your hands full with all that's been given you to answer to, so I'll just ask this one little question as not to burden you any further, or more than you can stand. And excuse me, as I know this is simplistic, but made me wonder after I read it. BarbB, you said: "Paul spent 3 years studying the scriptures with the Holy Spirit" My question: What scriptures are you referring to...what scriptures did Paul spend 3 years studying? Thanks, Hineni Barb said: THANK YOU for the welcome and your considerate note, that’s very nice! The scriptures that Paul studied were the scriptures that were there, and are still there for us to learn from—The OT Luk 24:27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself. Jesus taught the disciples all the understanding of the scriptures from the OT. Mark 13:23 But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things. Acts 3:24 Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days. Jesus foretold all things to come. It took Jesus to open the eyes and understanding for the disciples and it takes our God to do so, today, for all of us. Without Him there is no Truth. Nov 11 2008, 03:16 PM QUOTE (Hineni @ Nov 11 2008, 11:33 AM) BarbB, you said: "Paul spent 3 years studying the scriptures with the Holy Spirit" My question: What scriptures are you referring to...what scriptures did Paul spend 3 years studying? I can answer that, it would be the fables. The fables which the Jewish religious believed in. Quite interesting. The same books that were so important to Paul, also were the ones he rejected: QUOTE Titus 1 14. Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth. 15. Unto the pure all things are pure : but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled . 16. They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate. So is the Torah Barb said” The torah, is not the whole Ot—you’ve left out the prophets and Paul isn’t speaking about the OT, in the above scriptures. You might check into how the nation of Israel was polluted by those claiming to be Jews but were not. You might check into the Tares and where they were at this time, in our History and where they are today. bubbleloulicious QUOTE (BarbB @ Nov 10 2008, 04:22 PM) The anointing is the Holy Spirit, He being God will teach you things to come and things that were. God doesn’t want anyone to choose Him because they are afraid of Hell or eternal damnation. That would be a choice out of fear, not a free-will choice. God wants people to choose Him because they want to get to know Him. It takes a lot of study to know the heart of God. It’s not something that you can pull out a scripture and stand on it like some religions do. We are being transformed into Christ’s likeness from glory to glory and it takes our life to do it, not two minutes in the Bible. Even the Apostle Paul after he spent years killing Christians didn’t go out to share the gospel, until he spent three years studying the scriptures with the Holy Spirit. Because someone calls themselve a Christian. You want to be careful not to ever believe them, but take it to the Word of God to test the spirits. That’s what God says to do. You said: So, one should not take anything to another person for counsel, yes? Barb said: If you are feeling led to seek wise counsel, then yes, but if a person can’t discern wise counsel wait until they know for sure it is of God. What IS the Holy Spirit, Barb? Who is the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the third person of the Trinity. God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. He indwells the follower of Jesus and He guides and directs our steps into the Truth. He comforts us. I don't understand. Why the need to study a book? Barb said: The book is Jesus. Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The Bible is spiritually discerned as I made mention above. The Bible is the Living Word or Jesus. To know the Living Word, through the Holy Spirit is to know who God really is. No man can teach us the Word of God, only our Heavenly, Living God. John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me: John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. You said: BarbB, I have a scripture for you: "Mat 10:14 And whosoever, shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet. " If we ever see you here again, you're not a true christian. Barb said: Cute!! You are showing your lack of understanding of scriptures. But God loves you anyway!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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