JESUS TURNED WATER INTO WINE!

[Guest Zoe Grace]

So I'm on the phone with my grandmother. There is a local vineyard I wanted to go to, but it's way out in bumblefuck and I can't find it, but my grandmother knows where it is. I asked her if she would drive me.

 

She said: "Why do you want to go to the vineyard?"

 

I said: "Um...to buy wine."

 

And my grandmother was all: "Oh i don't know if I can take you to buy wine. I can't support you getting drunk"

 

I said: "Mama, i've never been drunk a day in my life. I've never drank more than one glass of ANYTHING a day in my life. it's JUST WINE! You know...to go with dinner...goes really nice with italian food."

 

my grandmother is still hemming and hawing.

 

Me: "mama...Jesus turned water into wine...NOT nonalcoholic grape juice. If it had been grape juice, it would have been translated grape juice...NOT wine. Wine is fermented, therefore alcoholic."

 

My grandmother says: "oh, i suppose you were there." (yes folks, my grandmother believes jesus turned water into grape juice.)

 

I said: "mama...Back in those days you didn't drink grape juice...they didn't have the proper refridgeration to "keep" the juice. You drank WINE...because WINE WILL KEEP."

 

JESUS FUCKING CHRIST. IT'S JUST WINE.

[a midnight star]

The only think I have seen in the bible meantioning not drinking was a verse stating that you are not to "get drunk with wine" not to abstain from it.

 

Ephesians 5:

18 And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;

 

Now unless she believes that the Jews didn't drink wine, then even the "grape juice" bit doesn't work either. I happened before his ministry. SO the wedding party were NOT followers of Jesus, but were Jewish families that did drink.

 

I love it when they don't even listen to what their own bible says.

[☆ TexasFreethinker ☆]

My Baptist mom tried two approaches to this question when I asked it as a teenager.

 

Approach 1: "The wine in bible times was not like the wine today - it barely had any alcohol in it." (This, despite all the bible verses talking about drunk people).

 

Approach 2 (when I obviously wasn't buying approach 1): "They had to drink wine back in bible times since the water wasn't fit to drink." She never was able to tell me where she got hold of the water pollution test results from 30 AD, nor would she let me look at them.

 

To this day I haven't told her how much alcohol is in her favorite cough syrup or in vanilla extract, etc. She wouldn't want to know.

[Vigile]

My grandmother says: "oh, i suppose you were there." (yes folks, my grandmother believes jesus turned water into grape juice.)

 

 

Too funny.

 

It's amazing how much they twist and fit their beliefs to match cultural norms. Moreover, the cultural norms developed from earlier interpretations of their faith. It's a vicious cycle that spirals out into nonsense.

 

My mom actually appologized to me a year or two ago about this issue. She said she was sorry that her and my father were so legalistic when I was younger and that now she knows it's ok to have a glass of wine (though she's still afraid to take a sip out of belief that it might be the first drink on the road toward alcoholism ). I think she thinks I left xianity because of their legalism. It's sad that they have to carry around that stupid guilt.

[Asimov]

While technically one sip is the first step down the road of alcoholism....

 

one bite of chocolate cake is the first step down the road to obesity...

 

and one sexual encounter is the first step down the road to nymphomania (not that I have room to talk on this issue.)

 

One can drink and drink responsibly...one must just set their limits and boundaries and not cross them.  If you follow your limits...you won't become an alcoholic.

 

Slippery slope theory? Haha

[☆ TexasFreethinker ☆]

I think she doesn't understand the fermentation process. 

Wouldn't surprise me at all - for her, that would be like understanding how crack is made! Making wine is something sinful folks do LOL. Maybe the HG told her that wine was weaker back then.

[quicksand]

When I read the thread title JESUS TURNED WATER INTO WINE! I read it as JESUS TURNED WATER INTO WHINE!

 

I thought this could be the reason why some many fundies complain about homosexuality, prayer in schools, alcohol, sex, the formula of family, government, and non-existant persecution of them in this country.

 

All they do is whine, whine, whine and whine about it.

 

Me bad.

[quicksand]

Besides, Jesus himself got drunk on the stuff at a wedding.

 

But perhaps not. I mean, gee, he could have just gone to the kitchen and get some nicely treated water out of the tap.

 

What am I thinking, geez....

 

 

(Hey does this mean when it comes time to being judged you can get God drunk and change his judgement? HE HE)

[Jaded]

yup...wine is very sinful. The Baptists and the Christian Scientists are the only ones who have it right. The whole wedding story was added to the bible by the wine makers. It's all part of the conspiracy! Don't you see?

 

CS actually teaches that the wine miracle was one of the "errors" in the bible because they "know" that jesus would never supply alcohol to people. How they came by this information I never found out....

 

Just don't drink the Kool Aid.

[Ouroboros]

This perfectly illustrates how Moral Code is changing over time, especially in the religious community.

 

The whole drinking and getting drunk, alcohol issue, is not more than 150 years old. Before that, no one ever claimed that you shouldn't drink because it was against the Bible.

 

It's a fairly modern idea, because the alcohol abuse got out of hand when the industry started to be able to produce more than anyone could consume.

 

Before the industrial revolution, alcohol took time to manufacture, but through the scientific marvels and industrial process, it's not a big thing anymore. So people started to drink too much, and some Christians decided it was immoral to do so, and sinful.

 

So now, we're suffering a new and updated version of the "unchangeable" moral code from the Bible,

Commandment 11: Thou shalt not drink alcoholic beverages.

 

And it goes for smoking too... and TV, and reading Harry Potter... and chatting on ex-christian.net!

[Ouroboros]

Yeah obesity is an epidemic too...too much food too much laziness.  Gluttony is clearly outlined as a sin in the bible...yet you never hear the preachers bitching at all the fat asses in the pews.

JACKPOT! Well said Zoe!

 

Glutony is a sin, not preached from the pulpit.

Drinking alcohol is NOT as sin, BUT preached from the pulpit as such.

[crazy-tiger]

JACKPOT! Well said Zoe!

 

Glutony is a sin, not preached from the pulpit.

Drinking alcohol is NOT as sin, BUT preached from the pulpit as such.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Gluttony means you're stuck on your arse all day. In which case, you're not going to be exposed to "Those Evil Atheists" and their Satan-spawned lies"

 

Drinking alcohol, on the other hand, is usually in pubs and clubs where you are exposed to Atheists and Satan's lies...

 

 

It's just self-preservation. They need to keep their flock docile so they can fleece them for all they're worth...

[shy1680]

I love arguing with Christians about the "non-alcoholic wine" that Jesus made. I usually start out with them on Numbers 6:3 which breaks down all the different products made with grapes back then, wine (Yayin)and grape juice or liquor (Mishrah) are listed seperately and two different hebrew words, so they cant say its the same thing. Thus there is no such thing as non-alcoholic wine in the bible. Then I take them into how wine was offered in the temple as a temple offering, thus God approved of wine. I usually hear about how God did away with drinking wine since it causes people to sin.

 

Then for those who like to argue that Jesus NEVER drank wine himself, I take them into the N.T. to John 19:30 when he "received" the sour wine AKA vinegar. I have gotten some interesting arguements with that one. Now that im Atheist, Im sure if I use this one I will have to hear how God proves himself again through prophecy thanks to Psalm 69:21. I used to use this pathetic scripture with Matthew 27:34 to prove the magic of prophecy .

 

I even used the John scripture to get rid of the Jehovah's Witnesses. Their arguement is that Jesus didnt come into the kingdom until 1914, by using Luke 22:18 with John 19:30 I proved them wrong, but of course they wouldnt accept their teaching as wrong. I was wrong because I didnt understand the true meaning of that scripture according to them.

[spamandham]

I said: "mama...Back in those days you didn't drink grape juice...they didn't have the proper refridgeration to "keep" the juice.  You drank WINE...because WINE WILL KEEP."

 

JESUS FUCKING CHRIST.  IT'S JUST WINE.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

If you really want to have some fun, you should point out that it was customary within Judaism in the first century for the groom to be in charge of the wine.

 

Then you could also point out that the term "rabbi" was reserved for married men, and that even Jesus' detractors called him rabbi.

 

Then, to top it all off, point out that the only thing supporting that Jesus was not married is Catholic church tradition, and ask her why she accepts that aspect of Catholic tradition but simultaneoulsy rejects other aspects of it (assuming she's protestant - of course she is, Catholics drink).

 

Have some popcorn ready and enjoy the show!

[godlessgrrl]

Oooh... I dunno why I never thought the wedding at Cana could've been Jesus' own wedding. I like that idea, Zoe.

 

/history mode on

I love the (bullshit) claim about early wine not having hardly any alcohol in it. Which is a load of bollocks, btw. If anything it had more. Roman wine in particular was quite strong, a lot like fortified wines of today.

 

During the Empire it was a common thing for Roman parties to include somebody, chosen by lot, who was called the "rex bibendi" - "king of the drinking", basically. The guy had a pair of (usually loaded) dice which he'd toss that would determine how many parts water should be mixed with how many parts wine. Of course the idea was to get totally hammered, duh! But even at drinking parties people mixed their wine. Drinking unmixed wine was a dent in someone's reputation.

/history mode off

 

Gotta love that alcohol-related hypocrisy...

[Guest Son of Belial]

Yeah, the Seventh Day Adventists say there was no wine back then, but can never explain to me how Noah became drunk.

[★ Citsonga ★]

I love arguing with Christians about the "non-alcoholic wine" that Jesus made. I usually start out with them on Numbers 6:3 which breaks down all the different products made with grapes back then, wine (Yayin)and grape juice or liquor (Mishrah) are listed seperately and two different hebrew words, so they cant say its the same thing. Thus there is no such thing as non-alcoholic wine in the bible. Then I take them into how wine was offered in the temple as a temple offering, thus God approved of wine. I usually hear about how God did away with drinking wine since it causes people to sin.

 

Then for those who like to argue that Jesus NEVER drank wine himself, I take them into the N.T. to John 19:30 when he "received" the sour wine AKA vinegar. I have gotten some interesting arguements with that one. Now that im Atheist, Im sure if I use this one I will have to hear how God proves himself again through prophecy thanks to Psalm 69:21. I used to use this pathetic scripture with Matthew 27:34 to prove the magic of prophecy .

 

I even used the John scripture to get rid of the Jehovah's Witnesses. Their arguement is that Jesus didnt come into the kingdom until 1914, by using Luke 22:18 with John 19:30 I proved them wrong, but of course they wouldnt accept their teaching as wrong. I was wrong because I didnt understand the true meaning of that scripture according to them.

 

Sorry to resurrect a long dead thread, but I was skimming through some old stuff and really liked the points made in this post.

 

Another passage that I would also point out with regard to the discussion of alcoholic beverages is this one:

 

Deuteronomy 14:26

And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the LORD thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household,

 

Christians often try to weasel out of "wine" references, which is weak enough on its own, but this "strong drink" reference leaves them with no wiggle room, since it is quite obvious what "strong drink" implies. Of course, in addition to it being obvious, Strong's entry for the Hebrew term says, "strong drink, intoxicating drink, fermented or intoxicating liquor."

 

So, how do the anti-alcohol Christians deal with God granting permission to use "strong drink" in this particular passage? I remember inquiring about this once when I was a believer, and though I don't remember the exact response I got, I do remember that it was very unconvincing. The Bible clearly condones alcohol consumption here.

[NonXNonExX]

I always new JC was secretly a party animal. I would certainly invite him to my party--not only did he turn the water into wine, it was really great wine to boot, not the cheap stuff i usually buy for a party.

 

Then again, that's one of the great things about the bible--it's as much fun to cherry pick for non-believers as it is for believers.

 

BTW, hope y'all had a good Blasphemy Day! Unfortunately, it was overshadowed here by National Day.