Why The Hate To Pagans?

[lunaticheathen]

Because christians are assholes. That's why they hate us.

[Kurari]

Because Christianity is hinged on preying on that human instinct to be part of the accepted "in" group. Christians need to feel they are the elite, God's Chosen, the pure, the righteous...in order for this to exist, they need to have an opposite.

 

So, let's condemn the pagans, the gays, the atheists, the minorities, the Jews, the Goths, the Liberals, the anybody-who-isn't-my-brand-of-Christian.

 

If they can find a difference, no matter how ridiculous or unreasonable, they will attack it and condemn it so they can feed their hunger for "righteousness."

 

Plus the Bible has plenty of assertions about witches and pagans and what horrible things you're supposed to do to them if you find them.

 

I'm an atheist pagan. I don't believe in gods, or the supernatural, or magic, but I still keep the Sabbats and revere the Wheel of Life and Nature.

[SleeplessGhost]

Beltaine... that's why.

 

(pause for people who get the joke to chuckle)

 

I think Florduh said that all religions were made up at one time or another and I have offended many people when explaining the history of Wicca to them that Gardner invented it with strong influences from other occultists at the time. They always ask why I follow a made up religion and my canned response is "they were all made up some time." I get a few chuckles and a lot of glares.

 

Seeings how I'm essentially a christian who doens't believe in god (as Antlerman correctly observed once), I have a hard time believing that 'pagans' really take their faith seriously. It looks more like role-playing to me. I mean, do that actually believe that these various fluff-bunny gods exist? Or are they just entertaining a fun idea?

It depends on what you mean by exist. There are a few hard-polythiests out there who believe the Gods are individual beings toiling endlessly at whatever gods do in their time. I believe that that any god is actualy one facet of the divine and we use these myriad personalities to try to better understand the whole. In the pagan community fluff-bunny has negative connotations, but I am assuming that you mean happy happy gods that love you and will never let anything bad happen. I, personally, don't believe that. My grandmother just passed from cancer, basically suffocating because she couldn't get enough air.

 

No, the gods can be callous, uncaring, and even cruel. There are many tales in the polythiestic religions of antiquity of the gods behaving this way, Christianity and Judaism are no exceptions.

[Kurari]

Seeings how I'm essentially a christian who doens't believe in god (as Antlerman correctly observed once), I have a hard time believing that 'pagans' really take their faith seriously. It looks more like role-playing to me. I mean, do that actually believe that these various fluff-bunny gods exist? Or are they just entertaining a fun idea?

 

That said, I've never met a pagan that I didn't like. They're definitely more interesting company than christians.

 

Well, there are many traditions (denominations) within neo-paganism just like there are in Christianity. So it's impossible to lump all pagans together just like you can't lump all Christians together.

 

A "fluffy-bunny" is a derogatory term amongst pagans for the folks who are not really serious and are just looking for some unrealistic hippie love-fest license to do what they want.

 

Serious pagans try to understand the duality of nature, and the benevolence and violence of Diety within it. The serenity and gentleness of soft waves lapping on the shore and the catastrophic violence of the tsunami. The celebration of plentiful harvest and the doom of slow death by starvation. Birth and death, violence and compassion, and the role of humans functioning separately from other animals yet still inextricably part of Nature.

 

So yes, many pagans do really believe the Goddess and God exist just like Christians believe that Jesus exists. But it's not really a requirement.

[RankStranger]

Seeings how I'm essentially a christian who doens't believe in god (as Antlerman correctly observed once), I have a hard time believing that 'pagans' really take their faith seriously. It looks more like role-playing to me. I mean, do that actually believe that these various fluff-bunny gods exist? Or are they just entertaining a fun idea?

 

That said, I've never met a pagan that I didn't like. They're definitely more interesting company than christians.

 

Well, there are many traditions (denominations) within neo-paganism just like there are in Christianity. So it's impossible to lump all pagans together just like you can't lump all Christians together.

 

A "fluffy-bunny" is a derogatory term amongst pagans for the folks who are not really serious and are just looking for some unrealistic hippie love-fest license to do what they want.

 

Serious pagans try to understand the duality of nature, and the benevolence and violence of Diety within it. The serenity and gentleness of soft waves lapping on the shore and the catastrophic violence of the tsunami. The celebration of plentiful harvest and the doom of slow death by starvation. Birth and death, violence and compassion, and the role of humans functioning separately from other animals yet still inextricably part of Nature.

 

So yes, many pagans do really believe the Goddess and God exist just like Christians believe that Jesus exists. But it's not really a requirement.

 

I understand (at least in theory) that there are other approaches to spirituality besides the christian approach. I suppose that for a given spiritual orientation, one doesn't necessarily need to 'believe' in the same sense that a christian does. Matter of fact, christian-style 'belief' may well be unhealthy and/or very limiting for all I know.

 

That said, my ONLY experience with spirituality is via christianity, and it's the only one that I even kinda understand (even though it didn't really work for me). Sorry about the 'fluff-bunny' comment- I don't mean to insult all pagans. Just saying that I don't really understand them, and they DO look kinda silly from my (admittedly limited) perspective.

 

 

 

 

Because christians are assholes. That's why they hate us.

 

Yeah, we're assholes- even us 'christians' who don't believe in god. I see it all over the place in my own Middle American Christian culture, and I don't like it. But I'm definitely a party to it- I'm a product of my environment.

 

You and I had an exchange a while back about rattlesnakes and intestinal parasites that ended in you calling me an asshole. And it's true enough. I'm neither denying nor apologizing. But I was getting at a legitimate question that I have about pagans, and I'd like to examine it a little further. I promise to do my best to avoid being an asshole in this thread if you're willing to humor me here.

 

As I implied earlier, I've met a few pagans in 'real life'. And I've liked them all. They generally revere nature or something like that, which is all fine and good I guess. It makes for pleasant conversation. But nature is not all butterflies and rainbows. Nature is also radioactivity and hillbillies... rattlesnakes and intestinal parasites. There's plenty of stuff in nature that's not only revolting from a cultural perspective- but clearly dangerous to humans or even life itself.

 

So when pagans 'revere nature', or the like- do they include the nasty and/or dangerous elements? Do they just put a positive spin on those and assume that nature knows best or something? How much room is there within pagan philosophy for the notion that some natural elements HAVE to be dealt with- sometimes even in a destructive manner- to maintain a decent quality of life for us humans? I mean, how do ya'll address stuff like rattlesnakes and tapeworms?

[Kurari]

Seeings how I'm essentially a christian who doens't believe in god (as Antlerman correctly observed once), I have a hard time believing that 'pagans' really take their faith seriously. It looks more like role-playing to me. I mean, do that actually believe that these various fluff-bunny gods exist? Or are they just entertaining a fun idea?

 

That said, I've never met a pagan that I didn't like. They're definitely more interesting company than christians.

 

Well, there are many traditions (denominations) within neo-paganism just like there are in Christianity. So it's impossible to lump all pagans together just like you can't lump all Christians together.

 

A "fluffy-bunny" is a derogatory term amongst pagans for the folks who are not really serious and are just looking for some unrealistic hippie love-fest license to do what they want.

 

Serious pagans try to understand the duality of nature, and the benevolence and violence of Diety within it. The serenity and gentleness of soft waves lapping on the shore and the catastrophic violence of the tsunami. The celebration of plentiful harvest and the doom of slow death by starvation. Birth and death, violence and compassion, and the role of humans functioning separately from other animals yet still inextricably part of Nature.

 

So yes, many pagans do really believe the Goddess and God exist just like Christians believe that Jesus exists. But it's not really a requirement.

 

I understand (at least in theory) that there are other approaches to spirituality besides the christian approach. I suppose that for a given spiritual orientation, one doesn't necessarily need to 'believe' in the same sense that a christian does. Matter of fact, christian-style 'belief' may well be unhealthy and/or very limiting for all I know.

 

That said, my ONLY experience with spirituality is via christianity, and it's the only one that I even kinda understand (even though it didn't really work for me). Sorry about the 'fluff-bunny' comment- I don't mean to insult all pagans. Just saying that I don't really understand them, and they DO look kinda silly from my (admittedly limited) perspective.

 

 

 

 

Because christians are assholes. That's why they hate us.

 

Yeah, we're assholes- even us 'christians' who don't believe in god. I see it all over the place in my own Middle American Christian culture, and I don't like it. But I'm definitely a party to it- I'm a product of my environment.

 

You and I had an exchange a while back about rattlesnakes and intestinal parasites that ended in you calling me an asshole. And it's true enough. I'm neither denying nor apologizing. But I was getting at a legitimate question that I have about pagans, and I'd like to examine it a little further. I promise to do my best to avoid being an asshole in this thread if you're willing to humor me here.

 

As I implied earlier, I've met a few pagans in 'real life'. And I've liked them all. They generally revere nature or something like that, which is all fine and good I guess. It makes for pleasant conversation. But nature is not all butterflies and rainbows. Nature is also radioactivity and hillbillies... rattlesnakes and intestinal parasites. There's plenty of stuff in nature that's not only revolting from a cultural perspective- but clearly dangerous to humans or even life itself.

 

So when pagans 'revere nature', or the like- do they include the nasty and/or dangerous elements? Do they just put a positive spin on those and assume that nature knows best or something? How much room is there within pagan philosophy for the notion that some natural elements HAVE to be dealt with- sometimes even in a destructive manner- to maintain a decent quality of life for us humans? I mean, how do ya'll address stuff like rattlesnakes and tapeworms?

 

Oh, no offense taken! I know you didn't mean ALL of us. I'm sorry if I made it sound that way. I'm not surprised at all that "fluffy-bunny" is what you got exposed to first. The Fluffy's tend to be much more visible than the rest of us with their nuttery.

 

Neo-paganism is a different way of thinking and worshiping from Christianity, so it can be a little alien. It took me a long time to shift my way of thinking after I left Christianity to Paganism and it was really confusing at first.

 

To take a swing at your question, our reverence doesn't mean we have to like something. Parasites, deadly creatures, and dangerous elements are awful, but they still have a vital place in nature. The rattlesnake, while dangerous, still eats the rodents that eat the farmer's crops and keeps populations of small animals in check. Without them, we'd have plagues of mice and rats. The fact they are venomous to humans is a happenstance of evolution, not a deliberate attack on humanity. That would considered arrogance on our part to think such a thing. Pagans don't believe the world was made with humans at the top. We're animals and part of the animal kingdom. We're all privvy to suffering and dying the exact same ways. Once, our ancestors were the prey of large animals like large cats, bears, sharks, and whatnot. We still are, actually, if we aren't careful.

 

Striving to understand how things interconnect and keep balance is where our reverence comes in. This doesn't mean we won't be upset and scared if we get bitten by a venomous snake or feel squicky knowing we have tapeworms in our guts and seek treatment to kill them off. But it does take a lot of stress out of life not to hate or loathe snakes or tapeworms or to think the Gods had something to do with the misfortune of encountering either.

[RankStranger]

I don't think you fully understand, Kurari. I'm not being facetious when I say that I'm an asshole. Not only do I kill rattlesnakes every chance I get- I enjoy it. And I enjoy killing other critters too- especially the ones that I eat.

 

I'm pretty sure that this mentality doesn't fit into modern paganism... but am I not an animal too? Am I not a product of nature? If other critters enjoy killing (mostly but not entirely for food), then why the hell can't I?

 

And I don't have much if any appreciation for rattlesnakes. Other snakes eat rats too- but they can't kill you or your pets. Some animals (a tapeworm for instance, or a rattlesnake or a tick) are just useless and destructive from my perspective. MUST everything have a purpose and be appreciated? Aren't there some things in life that we'd just be better off without?

 

Here's a fun fact that most here won't be aware of: deer go out of their way to kill rattlesnakes. I wouldn't have believed it either- but I've seen the tracks myself on several occasions. When deer run across a rattlesnake, they will stomp the things to death. Now I know ya'll pagans won't hold this against a deer. So why can't I do the same?

[Deva]

Seeings how I'm essentially a christian who doens't believe in god (as Antlerman correctly observed once), I have a hard time believing that 'pagans' really take their faith seriously. It looks more like role-playing to me. I mean, do that actually believe that these various fluff-bunny gods exist? Or are they just entertaining a fun idea?

 

I have been thinking about this for a long time. Mostly all day - it is very profound. Essentially Christians, yes, always, regardless of belief or lack thereof. There are serious people and non-serious people to be found in every religion.

 

I assume by Pagans in this thread you mean the nature worshiping pagans and not Buddhists, who deny the inherent existence of things.

[midniterider]

I don't think you fully understand, Kurari. I'm not being facetious when I say that I'm an asshole. Not only do I kill rattlesnakes every chance I get- I enjoy it. And I enjoy killing other critters too- especially the ones that I eat.

 

I'm pretty sure that this mentality doesn't fit into modern paganism... but am I not an animal too? Am I not a product of nature? If other critters enjoy killing (mostly but not entirely for food), then why the hell can't I?

 

And I don't have much if any appreciation for rattlesnakes. Other snakes eat rats too- but they can't kill you or your pets. Some animals (a tapeworm for instance, or a rattlesnake or a tick) are just useless and destructive from my perspective. MUST everything have a purpose and be appreciated? Aren't there some things in life that we'd just be better off without?

 

Here's a fun fact that most here won't be aware of: deer go out of their way to kill rattlesnakes. I wouldn't have believed it either- but I've seen the tracks myself on several occasions. When deer run across a rattlesnake, they will stomp the things to death. Now I know ya'll pagans won't hold this against a deer. So why can't I do the same?

 

Pagans aren't required to revere all things nor love all creatures. I aint petting no alligators nor shaking hands with a grizzly bear. Nor do you need to be a vegetarian. I love nature. Vegetables are nature, I eat them. Animals are nature. I eat them too. :-) They taste good. I live in a house made of wood. ::hugs my wall:: Every week I pull out the lawn mower and decapitate thousands of blades of grass. But they thank me later. There are several different definitions of pagan in the dictionary if you choose to follow dictionary definitions.

 

Now without radioactivity them plutonium fuel rods wouldnt be reacting and spinning a turbine to create the electricity we love. Without radioactivity we might still be at war with Japan...oh ok, bad example. :-)

[midniterider]

Seeings how I'm essentially a christian who doens't believe in god (as Antlerman correctly observed once), I have a hard time believing that 'pagans' really take their faith seriously. It looks more like role-playing to me. I mean, do that actually believe that these various fluff-bunny gods exist? Or are they just entertaining a fun idea?

 

I have been thinking about this for a long time. Mostly all day - it is very profound. Essentially Christians, yes, always, regardless of belief or lack thereof. There are serious people and non-serious people to be found in every religion.

 

I assume by Pagans in this thread you mean the nature worshiping pagans and not Buddhists, who deny the inherent existence of things.

 

If Rank Stranger can be a christian who doesnt believe in god then I can be a pagan who doesnt care much about ecology. Do I 'actually believe' in fluff bunny gods and goddesses? Hmm, I 'actually believed' that some guy hung on a cross for a day and a half for some inherited sin I was guilty of because a talking snake told some woman created from a rib to eat a fruit that was in reality the knowledge of good and evil. So I suppose I could apply some fondness to any absurd idea, yes. :-)

 

I never considered Thor or The Morrigan to be fluff bunnies, but whatever. lol.

[Kurari]

I don't think you fully understand, Kurari. I'm not being facetious when I say that I'm an asshole. Not only do I kill rattlesnakes every chance I get- I enjoy it. And I enjoy killing other critters too- especially the ones that I eat.

 

I'm pretty sure that this mentality doesn't fit into modern paganism... but am I not an animal too? Am I not a product of nature? If other critters enjoy killing (mostly but not entirely for food), then why the hell can't I?

 

And I don't have much if any appreciation for rattlesnakes. Other snakes eat rats too- but they can't kill you or your pets. Some animals (a tapeworm for instance, or a rattlesnake or a tick) are just useless and destructive from my perspective. MUST everything have a purpose and be appreciated? Aren't there some things in life that we'd just be better off without?

 

Here's a fun fact that most here won't be aware of: deer go out of their way to kill rattlesnakes. I wouldn't have believed it either- but I've seen the tracks myself on several occasions. When deer run across a rattlesnake, they will stomp the things to death. Now I know ya'll pagans won't hold this against a deer. So why can't I do the same?

 

Honey, I'm a FARMER. I raise chicks from tiny adorable balls of fluff and slit their throats when they are roaster size. I love guns. If I catch anything preying on my livestock, it will pay for it's meal out of it's hide. While I don't blame the predators for needing to eat, I can't have a raccoon thinking my chickens are an easy meal when I need them for my own family.

 

Raccoon, btw, is awesome BBQ'd and in stews.

 

The raccoons also are one of the few animals that love to eat slugs, and here in the rainy Northwest, slugs are dangerous to my garden. If they will stay away from my chickens, they are more than welcome to all the slugs they can munch on.

 

Like I said, you can't lump all pagans together. There are LOTS of us who eat meat, go hunting, and raise livestock for slaughter and thank the Gods for a good hunt. There are many who find that to be an anathema to "harm none, do as ye will" and go out of their way to be vegans.

 

Personally, I love rattlesnakes. I've never had a problem with them. Anything that gets rats out of ruining my feed and hay and garden and making me lose money is OK by me. I am far, FAR more scared of what a population boom of rats and mice will do to my farm than I am of encountering a rattler. Hell, at least I never find rattlers in my nestboxes like I do gopher snakes eating my eggs! And gopher snakes are "harmless" in that they aren't venomous but they sure have a worse impact on me and my life!

 

Just because we don't think something doesn't have a purpose doesn't mean there isn't one there. That's the way Nature works. Everything gets used to the benefit of keeping the system of life going. This includes the ugly side of it. Take the mosquito for example. As annoying as these parasites are, spreading disease and itchiness, they are still critical to feed birds, frogs, and fish. Without them, the food chain would break down and that would have a horrible affect on humans.

 

Ticks and fleas? Also a vital part of the food chain. My Guinea Hens LOVE ticks and fleas as food, which in turn helps keep my farm free of pests.

 

You see where this is going?

[RankStranger]

Seeings how I'm essentially a christian who doens't believe in god (as Antlerman correctly observed once), I have a hard time believing that 'pagans' really take their faith seriously. It looks more like role-playing to me. I mean, do that actually believe that these various fluff-bunny gods exist? Or are they just entertaining a fun idea?

 

I have been thinking about this for a long time. Mostly all day - it is very profound. Essentially Christians, yes, always, regardless of belief or lack thereof. There are serious people and non-serious people to be found in every religion.

 

I assume by Pagans in this thread you mean the nature worshiping pagans and not Buddhists, who deny the inherent existence of things.

 

If Rank Stranger can be a christian who doesnt believe in god then I can be a pagan who doesnt care much about ecology. Do I 'actually believe' in fluff bunny gods and goddesses? Hmm, I 'actually believed' that some guy hung on a cross for a day and a half for some inherited sin I was guilty of because a talking snake told some woman created from a rib to eat a fruit that was in reality the knowledge of good and evil. So I suppose I could apply some fondness to any absurd idea, yes. :-)

 

I never considered Thor or The Morrigan to be fluff bunnies, but whatever. lol.

 

I'm not saying that it's a good or worthwhile thing that you and I "actually believed" in jesus, his cross, and the like. Just saying that I don't know how to approach spirituality any other way. It's the only frame of reference I'm really familiar with.

 

So when you do your thing with Thor or Morrigan- do you think of them as real beings? Or as archetypes that represent something that's important to you? Or is it kinda like play-acting?

 

Or am I missing the point entirely?

[RankStranger]

I don't think you fully understand, Kurari. I'm not being facetious when I say that I'm an asshole. Not only do I kill rattlesnakes every chance I get- I enjoy it. And I enjoy killing other critters too- especially the ones that I eat.

 

I'm pretty sure that this mentality doesn't fit into modern paganism... but am I not an animal too? Am I not a product of nature? If other critters enjoy killing (mostly but not entirely for food), then why the hell can't I?

 

And I don't have much if any appreciation for rattlesnakes. Other snakes eat rats too- but they can't kill you or your pets. Some animals (a tapeworm for instance, or a rattlesnake or a tick) are just useless and destructive from my perspective. MUST everything have a purpose and be appreciated? Aren't there some things in life that we'd just be better off without?

 

Here's a fun fact that most here won't be aware of: deer go out of their way to kill rattlesnakes. I wouldn't have believed it either- but I've seen the tracks myself on several occasions. When deer run across a rattlesnake, they will stomp the things to death. Now I know ya'll pagans won't hold this against a deer. So why can't I do the same?

 

Honey, I'm a FARMER. I raise chicks from tiny adorable balls of fluff and slit their throats when they are roaster size. I love guns. If I catch anything preying on my livestock, it will pay for it's meal out of it's hide. While I don't blame the predators for needing to eat, I can't have a raccoon thinking my chickens are an easy meal when I need them for my own family.

 

Raccoon, btw, is awesome BBQ'd and in stews.

 

The raccoons also are one of the few animals that love to eat slugs, and here in the rainy Northwest, slugs are dangerous to my garden. If they will stay away from my chickens, they are more than welcome to all the slugs they can munch on.

 

Like I said, you can't lump all pagans together. There are LOTS of us who eat meat, go hunting, and raise livestock for slaughter and thank the Gods for a good hunt. There are many who find that to be an anathema to "harm none, do as ye will" and go out of their way to be vegans.

 

Personally, I love rattlesnakes. I've never had a problem with them. Anything that gets rats out of ruining my feed and hay and garden and making me lose money is OK by me. I am far, FAR more scared of what a population boom of rats and mice will do to my farm than I am of encountering a rattler. Hell, at least I never find rattlers in my nestboxes like I do gopher snakes eating my eggs! And gopher snakes are "harmless" in that they aren't venomous but they sure have a worse impact on me and my life!

 

Just because we don't think something doesn't have a purpose doesn't mean there isn't one there. That's the way Nature works. Everything gets used to the benefit of keeping the system of life going. This includes the ugly side of it. Take the mosquito for example. As annoying as these parasites are, spreading disease and itchiness, they are still critical to feed birds, frogs, and fish. Without them, the food chain would break down and that would have a horrible affect on humans.

 

Ticks and fleas? Also a vital part of the food chain. My Guinea Hens LOVE ticks and fleas as food, which in turn helps keep my farm free of pests.

 

You see where this is going?

 

 

A pagan AND a farmer? That's awesome. I'll never be either, but I generally like both.

 

It's nice to know that not all pagans are moralistic fluff-bunnies. Not that I hate moralistic fluff-bunnies or anything... I just think they're kinda silly.

 

So when it comes to pagan stuff- do you literally believe in it? Or is it more of a symbolic thing?

[RankStranger]

Seeings how I'm essentially a christian who doens't believe in god (as Antlerman correctly observed once), I have a hard time believing that 'pagans' really take their faith seriously. It looks more like role-playing to me. I mean, do that actually believe that these various fluff-bunny gods exist? Or are they just entertaining a fun idea?

 

I have been thinking about this for a long time. Mostly all day - it is very profound. Essentially Christians, yes, always, regardless of belief or lack thereof. There are serious people and non-serious people to be found in every religion.

 

I assume by Pagans in this thread you mean the nature worshiping pagans and not Buddhists, who deny the inherent existence of things.

 

Yes, I was referring to nature-worshipping, wicca, voodoo, euro-god type pagans. But I'd be interested to know how Buddhists approach this too.

 

See, when I was a christian, I took that shit seriously and literally. It was my under the impression (at the time), that there was The Truth, The Whole Truth, and Nothing But The Truth- so help me gawd. And it was my task as a human to discern that Truth and live by it to the letter of the law... with eternal damnation being the result if I failed.

 

And I failed. Turns out though that the result was NOT eternal damnation. The result was that some years after my failure, I came to realize that it was all bullshit.

 

Now this could be a personal failure on my part, or it could be a direct result of the christian indoctrination from birth- but whatever the reason, I am spiritually stunted. To the extent that spirituality ever 'worked' for me, it was tied up in christian fear, guilt, and legalism. Now that I'd discarded all that, my spirituality function just doesn't work- it really hasn't since I was a kid.

 

I wouldn't say that I have any deep longing for spirituality or the like. But it IS a very real and common part of the human experience, and worth investigating for that reason alone, I think. So that's why I'm interested in other approaches to spirituality... particularly from people who once had a christian perspective, but who now approach it a different way.

 

So in your Buddhism practice- does this require any kind of literal christian-style 'belief'? Or do you just start with the assumption that it 'works' on some level, proceed from there and see what happens? Or something else entirely?

[Vigile]

Seeings how I'm essentially a christian who doens't believe in god (as Antlerman correctly observed once), I have a hard time believing that 'pagans' really take their faith seriously. It looks more like role-playing to me. I mean, do that actually believe that these various fluff-bunny gods exist? Or are they just entertaining a fun idea?

 

I have been thinking about this for a long time. Mostly all day - it is very profound. Essentially Christians, yes, always, regardless of belief or lack thereof. There are serious people and non-serious people to be found in every religion.

 

I assume by Pagans in this thread you mean the nature worshiping pagans and not Buddhists, who deny the inherent existence of things.

 

What does this mean? How are you and Rank essentially xian?

[RankStranger]

Seeings how I'm essentially a christian who doens't believe in god (as Antlerman correctly observed once), I have a hard time believing that 'pagans' really take their faith seriously. It looks more like role-playing to me. I mean, do that actually believe that these various fluff-bunny gods exist? Or are they just entertaining a fun idea?

 

I have been thinking about this for a long time. Mostly all day - it is very profound. Essentially Christians, yes, always, regardless of belief or lack thereof. There are serious people and non-serious people to be found in every religion.

 

I assume by Pagans in this thread you mean the nature worshiping pagans and not Buddhists, who deny the inherent existence of things.

 

What does this mean? How are you and Rank essentially xian?

 

I can't speak for Deva of course. But what I mean (and what I think Antlerman meant when he first said it), is that my thinking is still shaped by christianity. It's kinda like saying that I'm a cultural christian, but on a deeper level. I even though I know damn well that it's often bullshit, I still reflexively see the world (particularly religious stuff) through the lens that I developed while I was a christian.

 

Like these pagans I'm talking to. I'm damn near questioning whether or not they're "real" pagans- whether their belief is strong enough or 'real' enough. In some sense I know that it doesn't HAVE to be. There's no reason why a pagan's belief should be structured similarly to that of a christian. But if it isn't, then I find it hard to imagine how they take it seriously at all.

[Vigile]

I can't speak for Deva of course. But what I mean (and what I think Antlerman meant when he first said it), is that my thinking is still shaped by christianity. It's kinda like saying that I'm a cultural christian, but on a deeper level. I even though I know damn well that it's often bullshit, I still reflexively see the world (particularly religious stuff) through the lens that I developed while I was a christian.

 

I guess I'm not really sure what a cultural christian is. Can you give me an example? How does xianity still shape your thinking for instance?

[VacuumFlux]

So in your Buddhism practice- does this require any kind of literal christian-style 'belief'? Or do you just start with the assumption that it 'works' on some level, proceed from there and see what happens? Or something else entirely?

 

I'm not speaking for Deva or any other Buddhists here, but I find myself practicing a lot of Buddhist meditation and trying to absorb its outlook. I didn't start out looking for something to believe in; I started out looking for something that "works", as you phrased it. So I tried the meditation. I tried thinking in Buddhist terms, like telling myself that an action I regret doing was "unskillful" instead of "sinful". And my life improved in little ways; I'm much less caught up in the unhealthy christian guilt cycle and take a more positive attitude towards improving things in my life. So far, I'm not sure that there's any part of Buddhism that I could say I "believe" in, I just find a lot of really useful ideas and am very excited about how much it's helping me and want to learn more. Maybe I'll end up believing in something later, maybe I won't. It don't matter much either way, as long as it's doing something useful for me.

 

On the topic of nature gods and violence, I think the modern/western/whatever pagans who see nature as happy and fluffy are possibly very different from historic pagans. Which makes sense, we live in cities now and are sheltered from a lot of the darker side of nature. But the Greek gods are often vicious, petty, and cruel. The Hindu Kali is, in some ways, a personification of all the nastier sides of life. You can give a god reverence and fear without feeling affection towards them, and worship them as a way to keep them satisfied and at bay instead of developing a closer relationship with 'em. Some of the Mabinogion, a book of Celtic mythology, is so gory and violent that I have a hard time reading some of the stories. And there's plenty of gods of the hunt, gods of war, gods of death. Sometimes I think I prefer to think of the universe as impartial and "accidentally" cruel instead of personal and malicious, like some of the pagan gods can be.

[midniterider]

I'm not saying that it's a good or worthwhile thing that you and I "actually believed" in jesus, his cross, and the like. Just saying that I don't know how to approach spirituality any other way. It's the only frame of reference I'm really familiar with.

 

So when you do your thing with Thor or Morrigan- do you think of them as real beings? Or as archetypes that represent something that's important to you? Or is it kinda like play-acting?

 

Or am I missing the point entirely?

 

I think I get what you're saying. I used to , and probably still do frame some religious things as they were with christianity. Even if you arent an xian here in the USA religious memes are strong and upon considering other systems of thought, philosophy and religion you might realize you have been programmed. For example, there is a meme floating about that says that you can only have one belief system at a time. Why is this? Another meme says religious practice is a solemn affair. No laughing allowed! :-) Yet another meme says that god is absolutely 100% real, all powerful, all knowing. These are baseless assumptions.

 

Entering into Wicca for a bit and then most especially chaos magick (see Phil Hine's Oven Ready Chaos), these christian memes are challenged. I personally dont commune with The Morrigan or Thor but you can google em to see that they arent fluffy. lol. I have my own homemade set of supernatural beings that I put into play when I feel the need. They aren't my authority figures but supernatural assistants. They don't demand worship but a pat on the back now and then is a good thing. They are about as chatty as Jesus was...hmm, go figure. But if I let one take over my body he could speak with my vocal cords. Yeahhhh, that's the ticket! Anyway, not so important that it is 'real' or not but does it do something for you? Does it give you comfort? Does it solve a problem? Does it motivate you to achieve a goal? Does it freak the fuck out of someone you dont like? :-) These are important questions to think about if you want to enjoy a free flowing belief system.

 

Now someone reading this is thinking "This guy's a dork. He made up his own deities...lolol." I could inject a little zen and say I invented the whole universe this morning when I opened my eyes. I invented you, me, this whole dream. lol. This is all great fun. :-)

[Deva]

So in your Buddhism practice- does this require any kind of literal christian-style 'belief'? Or do you just start with the assumption that it 'works' on some level, proceed from there and see what happens? Or something else entirely?

 

There is some faith involved when you get to a certain level (Vajrayana Buddhism). Not literal belief in a text though. It a is a much more more experiential type of thing. It is the kind of thing you work at and see what happens. Not sure I can explain it any better than that. It is so completely different than Christianity - it is entirely about the mind and not about an outside entity like BibleGod who is separate from you.

[Deva]

I can't speak for Deva of course. But what I mean (and what I think Antlerman meant when he first said it), is that my thinking is still shaped by christianity. It's kinda like saying that I'm a cultural christian, but on a deeper level. I even though I know damn well that it's often bullshit, I still reflexively see the world (particularly religious stuff) through the lens that I developed while I was a christian.

 

Like these pagans I'm talking to. I'm damn near questioning whether or not they're "real" pagans- whether their belief is strong enough or 'real' enough. In some sense I know that it doesn't HAVE to be. There's no reason why a pagan's belief should be structured similarly to that of a christian. But if it isn't, then I find it hard to imagine how they take it seriously at all.

 

I understand this and it took me quite sometime to realize how much of my thinking is still Christian. Long after you have discarded any belief in the doctrines of Christianity, these thought patterns remain. I took everything seriously, just like you describe, Rank. Example of Christian-type thinking - Are my fellow sangha members "real Buddhists"? The self-imposed pressure to be some kind of saint. I still have a negative self-image, yet some rather grandiose ideas about transcending this life - Stuff like this.

[RankStranger]

I can't speak for Deva of course. But what I mean (and what I think Antlerman meant when he first said it), is that my thinking is still shaped by christianity. It's kinda like saying that I'm a cultural christian, but on a deeper level. I even though I know damn well that it's often bullshit, I still reflexively see the world (particularly religious stuff) through the lens that I developed while I was a christian.

 

Like these pagans I'm talking to. I'm damn near questioning whether or not they're "real" pagans- whether their belief is strong enough or 'real' enough. In some sense I know that it doesn't HAVE to be. There's no reason why a pagan's belief should be structured similarly to that of a christian. But if it isn't, then I find it hard to imagine how they take it seriously at all.

 

I understand this and it took me quite sometime to realize how much of my thinking is still Christian. Long after you have discarded any belief in the doctrines of Christianity, these thought patterns remain. I took everything seriously, just like you describe, Rank. Example of Christian-type thinking - Are my fellow sangha members "real Buddhists"? The self-imposed pressure to be some kind of saint. I still have a negative self-image, yet some rather grandiose ideas about transcending this life - Stuff like this.

 

I'm not going to claim that I'm in some herculean struggle against my own deeply-embedded thought patterns. I'm not nearly that ambitious. But I do think it's important to acknowledge that those thought patterns exist, where they come from, and how they influence our daily decisions and perceptions.

 

I had a tiny little spiritual experience the other day- the first I've had since I was a kid. I actually prayed to God the other day, in the same manner that I did when I was a kid. Now I knew that this wasn't 'real'- nothing short of brain-damage will ever return me to Jesus. But it WAS comforting and I think worthwhile- and I felt like I had touched a little part of my mind that hadn't been active in over two decades. Maybe this is something I could pursue.

 

So I've been thinking a little about spirituality lately.

 

I went to a Unitarian Universalism church for a few weeks back in 2008. It was a positive experience overall. It was kinda interesting, and I met quite a few good people there. But I quit going for two reasons. First, I was just too busy with school and work- I didn't have time for that kind of pursuit. But more importantly- I just couldn't take it seriously. These people clearly didn't BELIEVE in the same sense that I grew up with. Now this is really more a criticism of my own expectations than how they were approaching their spirituality.

 

I actually have some time on my hands these days- for the first time in a long LONG time. And maybe I'm ready for a little personal growth? Seems like something worth looking into... beats the hell out of sitting on the couch watching Reality Teevee. If I feel motivated tomorrow, I'm thinking about showing up again at the local UU church. And I'm hoping to look at it with a little different perspective.

[Kurari]

I don't think you fully understand, Kurari. I'm not being facetious when I say that I'm an asshole. Not only do I kill rattlesnakes every chance I get- I enjoy it. And I enjoy killing other critters too- especially the ones that I eat.

 

I'm pretty sure that this mentality doesn't fit into modern paganism... but am I not an animal too? Am I not a product of nature? If other critters enjoy killing (mostly but not entirely for food), then why the hell can't I?

 

And I don't have much if any appreciation for rattlesnakes. Other snakes eat rats too- but they can't kill you or your pets. Some animals (a tapeworm for instance, or a rattlesnake or a tick) are just useless and destructive from my perspective. MUST everything have a purpose and be appreciated? Aren't there some things in life that we'd just be better off without?

 

Here's a fun fact that most here won't be aware of: deer go out of their way to kill rattlesnakes. I wouldn't have believed it either- but I've seen the tracks myself on several occasions. When deer run across a rattlesnake, they will stomp the things to death. Now I know ya'll pagans won't hold this against a deer. So why can't I do the same?

 

Honey, I'm a FARMER. I raise chicks from tiny adorable balls of fluff and slit their throats when they are roaster size. I love guns. If I catch anything preying on my livestock, it will pay for it's meal out of it's hide. While I don't blame the predators for needing to eat, I can't have a raccoon thinking my chickens are an easy meal when I need them for my own family.

 

Raccoon, btw, is awesome BBQ'd and in stews.

 

The raccoons also are one of the few animals that love to eat slugs, and here in the rainy Northwest, slugs are dangerous to my garden. If they will stay away from my chickens, they are more than welcome to all the slugs they can munch on.

 

Like I said, you can't lump all pagans together. There are LOTS of us who eat meat, go hunting, and raise livestock for slaughter and thank the Gods for a good hunt. There are many who find that to be an anathema to "harm none, do as ye will" and go out of their way to be vegans.

 

Personally, I love rattlesnakes. I've never had a problem with them. Anything that gets rats out of ruining my feed and hay and garden and making me lose money is OK by me. I am far, FAR more scared of what a population boom of rats and mice will do to my farm than I am of encountering a rattler. Hell, at least I never find rattlers in my nestboxes like I do gopher snakes eating my eggs! And gopher snakes are "harmless" in that they aren't venomous but they sure have a worse impact on me and my life!

 

Just because we don't think something doesn't have a purpose doesn't mean there isn't one there. That's the way Nature works. Everything gets used to the benefit of keeping the system of life going. This includes the ugly side of it. Take the mosquito for example. As annoying as these parasites are, spreading disease and itchiness, they are still critical to feed birds, frogs, and fish. Without them, the food chain would break down and that would have a horrible affect on humans.

 

Ticks and fleas? Also a vital part of the food chain. My Guinea Hens LOVE ticks and fleas as food, which in turn helps keep my farm free of pests.

 

You see where this is going?

 

 

A pagan AND a farmer? That's awesome. I'll never be either, but I generally like both.

 

It's nice to know that not all pagans are moralistic fluff-bunnies. Not that I hate moralistic fluff-bunnies or anything... I just think they're kinda silly.

 

So when it comes to pagan stuff- do you literally believe in it? Or is it more of a symbolic thing?

 

Thanks! It's a lot of HARD work, but it's also a lot of fun. It gives me a great sense of peace and happiness.

 

And of course during this economy, it's helping make sure we'll continue to have food and a way to save and make money.

 

My own personal practice is what is called an Eclectic Solitary. This means that I work alone and not with a coven, and I don't follow any particular tradition but I will incorporate aspects of many different traditions and ideas into my own practice.

 

Practice Knowledge, Wisdom, and Common Sense - This is central to my practice, probably above all else. Study and education are something I highly revere and seek constantly.

 

Revere Nature and our Earth - I do my best in my farm to be as kind to the animals and the environment as I can. This means practicing techniques like polyculture, permaculture, and recycling which help make it so I don't have to use many if any antibiotics or pesticides. It makes us all healthier.

 

Reduce Suffering - Life and Death are inevitable, but that doesn't mean I have to add to the suffering we all feel. I take great care with my livestock in their lives and deaths. Treat them kindly and gently, and when it's time to go to the stewpot, death should be as fast and painless as possible.

 

Practice Charity - If something or someone needs my help, I will do what I can, if I can.

 

Keep the Sabbats and Esbats - These serve two functions for me, both spiritual and practical. Sabbats are holidays that mark important points in the seasons, and Esbats are Full and/or New moon rituals or they are also coven meetings.

 

There are 8 Sabbats that I observe. They mark things like the equinoxes and solstices. This is a time for my family to get together, feast, and enjoy what that part of the season has to bring and observe what nature is doing, but it's also important for me because I can know important things like when and what to plant. Our next Sabbat is Midsummer, which happens on June 21st. That's the summer solstice, and while I'll be baking lavender cupcakes and making lemonade, it's also time for me to clear out the remnants of the spring annuals and harvest that is over, get my summer harvest sprouts in the greenhouse transplanted to the ground (basil, herbs, lettuce), and start getting the fall-harvest seedlings (like my pumpkins) started in their pots.

 

I observe the full moon Esbats as points each month to be sure to take a time out and meditate. I'll take an herbal bath, light a white candle, meditate on the moon and any pressing problems I have bothering me. It's a point to let go and focus on myself for a bit and a stopping point to recognize time is passing me by (which is easy to forget about when you're working dawn to dusk every day). I also keep track of the moon because I live near various kinds of water, and the moon phase during fishing season depends on when and what is worth working on catching. High tides mean the larger fish and crabs come closer to the shore, and low tides mean I can get shellfish like clams and oysters.

 

The Goddess and God - I'm an atheist. I pretty much only factor gods as methods of meditation and as the archetypes I see in nature and stories to help me think. I do not think of them as literal beings, so I do not pray, practice magic, draw circles, or leave offerings. I do still have my alter though, with the symbols on it of candles, chalice, athame, and so on as more symbolism to help me rezone my thoughts and basically relax.

[Legion]

I'm not a Buddhist, but in my opinion, paganism is far less evolved than Buddhism.

 

But then that may be a great point of attraction for people to paganism; it's primeval.

[micksherlock]

I'm not a Buddhist, but in my opinion, paganism is far less evolved than Buddhism.

 

But then that may be a great point of attraction for people to paganism; it's primeval.

 

I think we need to define 'Paganism,' a little more.