Abiyoyo Posted February 1, 2009 Author Share Posted February 1, 2009 If you can think up a good reason for the conceptual existence of hell, give it a try, but I doubt it. I think Satan was an entity created by God like angels, but given freewill. What if God is just a higher being that does get jealous, angered, wrath kindled, likes that sweet smelling aroma, merciful? I'm sure there are other adjectives from the OT. What if He did set aside a group, called it His people, gave them extreme laws which they could never follow? Lead into villages, countries etc into victorious battle? People Biblically, were terrified of Israel, because they worshiped the True God. What if he's just God? What if he created Hell? Satan? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abiyoyo Posted February 1, 2009 Author Share Posted February 1, 2009 So Satan is the First Cause of Evil? In other words, not everything came from God. If a person is possessed and fool the person into believing that God does not exist, or maybe to believe that Jesus isn't the salvation, does that person deserve Hell? Dunno. Sometimes, God is pictured as to Ronald McDonald. If He is the One True God as it is said then, Yes I think all came from Him in original presence. Are you saying God created evil too? That's deep, but not impossible. I would say that the person's Hell status would be determined by if he truly was possessed. If so, I would assume no. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted February 1, 2009 Share Posted February 1, 2009 Thats an unknown. I can't say that the Jews are going to hell. Why would they, they are God's original people. But, from the scriptures I studied Biblically, Jesus is the main way. I says He will confess our name to God. Are the Lamb's Book of life and the Book of life the same book? Why would God be so unclear on this that you, as a devout Christian, can't know for sure the answer? Jesus was sent for the Jews, He even said that. Right? But, God made Him a light to all people. Peter didn't even understand this until his vision in Acts. Jesus addressed the Jews. Are you talking about those not born, raised around Christianity etc? Which kind of Jews go to Heaven? Which kind of Christians go to Heaven? Which kind of non-Christians/non-Jews go to Heaven? Do you know? Not really. In other words, you're kept in the dark. If a person can go to Heaven who has never heard about Jesus, then he has a better chance to be saved if you decide to never tell him the Gospel. Do you understand that logic? Put it this way: Person A, never heard about Jesus. He has a fair chance to go to Heaven. Person B, tells person A about Jesus. Now Person A must make a choice, and if chooses not to, now he's guaranteed the road to Hell. In other words, person B is part of the process of making sure person A got to Hell instead of having a fair chance of Heaven. Person B is therefore evil and deserve Hell more, since he was part of sending A there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abiyoyo Posted February 1, 2009 Author Share Posted February 1, 2009 Does Satan have a brain? How does he think? That goes for the "demons" as well. Do they have brains? How do they think and communicate? How do they, as "spiritual beings" interact with matter? How can they possess humans? What is the mechanism used by demons to influence people? Just a few questions. I ... I dunno nightflight. Mechanism? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted February 1, 2009 Share Posted February 1, 2009 Dunno. Sometimes, God is pictured as to Ronald McDonald. If He is the One True God as it is said then, Yes I think all came from Him in original presence. Are you saying God created evil too? That's deep, but not impossible. For God to be the First Cause, he must have. You can't both say First and Not-First, and mean the same thing. I would say that the person's Hell status would be determined by if he truly was possessed. If so, I would assume no. Ok. How about a good person who just deny Jesus as the salvation? Compared to a serial killer who just got saved moments before his execution? Or should I ask, what makes a person deserve Hell at all? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted February 1, 2009 Share Posted February 1, 2009 I ... I dunno nightflight. Mechanism? A mechanism requires mechanics. It requires "things", which are processing, doing things. "Process" and "doing" is something which is happening within time frames. In other words, we end up with a spiritual world which contains some form of matter (things that can act/react), time, space, etc. And perhaps the same kind of problems are there as we have here, like natural disasters, spirit-world-comets colliding with Hell, people using their ingenuity to build towers of dead bodies to reach up to Heaven... who knows, right? Does it start to sound like fantasy or sci-fi? You bet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abiyoyo Posted February 1, 2009 Author Share Posted February 1, 2009 Which kind of Jews go to Heaven? Which kind of Christians go to Heaven? Which kind of non-Christians/non-Jews go to Heaven? Do you know? Not really. In other words, you're kept in the dark. In other words, person B is part of the process of making sure person A got to Hell instead of having a fair chance of Heaven. Person B is therefore evil and deserve Hell more, since he was part of sending A there. Isa 43:19 19 Behold, I will do a new thing; now it shall spring forth; shall ye not know it? I will even make a way in the wilderness, and rivers in the desert. (KJV) I dunno Hans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saviourmachine Posted February 1, 2009 Share Posted February 1, 2009 I think Satan was an entity created by God like angels, but given freewill. What if God is just a higher being that does get jealous, angered, wrath kindled, likes that sweet smelling aroma, merciful? I'm sure there are other adjectives from the OT. What if He did set aside a group, called it His people, gave them extreme laws which they could never follow? Lead into villages, countries etc into victorious battle? People Biblically, were terrified of Israel, because they worshiped the True God. What if he's just God? What if he created Hell? Satan? I am trying to find a spark of creativity in those sentences... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest kcdad Posted February 2, 2009 Share Posted February 2, 2009 and they have an abode somewhere in God's already created universe, which we call Hell. Can we find it with GPS? Please stop this nonsense. You are making everyone lose brain cells... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted February 2, 2009 Share Posted February 2, 2009 I dunno Hans. And neither do I. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted February 2, 2009 Share Posted February 2, 2009 Can we find it with GPS? Please stop this nonsense. You are making everyone lose brain cells... I prefer losing my brain cells drinking beer... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Purple Posted February 2, 2009 Share Posted February 2, 2009 Hell shmell, why is there no sea in heaven??? I LOVE the oceans! What's wrong with seas, and oceans??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwc Posted February 2, 2009 Share Posted February 2, 2009 Hell shmell, why is there no sea in heaven??? I LOVE the oceans! What's wrong with seas, and oceans??? No sea in heaven? Oh, I think I know what you're talking about... Well, the smart-ass answer is "god" keeps trying to make a sea but since heaven is on fluffy clouds it just falls through as rain. mwc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest kcdad Posted February 2, 2009 Share Posted February 2, 2009 Hell shmell, why is there no sea in heaven??? I LOVE the oceans! What's wrong with seas, and oceans??? Oh come now... haven't you ever heard "the oceans are heavin'"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWIM Posted February 2, 2009 Share Posted February 2, 2009 If we were destined to be Hell bound, Why would Christ have said repent? or suggest it would be better to cut this or that off than to have it in hell? What I believe. You have to be in the Book of life. 100% definite if you confess Christ's name and believe in Him. It was as simple as 'believe in me and you will have everlasting life'. What are your thoughts about the topic? My thoughts? I think there is already a long thread on this subject still going strong and we don't really need another on. More of my thoughts is you believing this is total stupidity, and I can understand why you call yourself "YoYo"... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted February 2, 2009 Share Posted February 2, 2009 Oh come now... haven't you ever heard "the oceans are heavin'"? Or The Holy See? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abiyoyo Posted February 2, 2009 Author Share Posted February 2, 2009 For God to be the First Cause, he must have. You can't both say First and Not-First, and mean the same thing. Ok. How about a good person who just deny Jesus as the salvation? Compared to a serial killer who just got saved moments before his execution? Or should I ask, what makes a person deserve Hell at all? The direction of the topic was from past times, and present, as I stated earlier, making it on my mind. Are you saying that no matter the case; people should be exempt from going to Hell? I mean to answer Swim, Yes there is another Hell thread, that's basically saying Hell is absurd, and goes against humanity in general. I simply am asking through this topic, What if the extremity of Hell, that I would assume all including myself have heard of since birth, is not the case? And later into discussion, the whole God Satan topic got strung into this thread. My question into that is, Why is God likened to Ronald McDonald? It's the happy man, at the happy place? This ties into the extreme Hell concept among people in a contradicting way. Is God not just the Supreme, One, Only, True, God that rules over us in the finite? As said earlier, Maybe God is jealous. Maybe his anger does kindle. This God, contradicts the Ronald McDonald God, the happy God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted February 2, 2009 Share Posted February 2, 2009 The direction of the topic was from past times, and present, as I stated earlier, making it on my mind. Are you saying that no matter the case; people should be exempt from going to Hell? I consider the eternal Hell to be unjust, regardless of crime. I like the old style Hell better, where the evil people were sent to Hell only for a while, so they would learn their lesson, and when they had learned humility and regretted their actions, they would slowly getting closer to Heaven. My understanding is that purgatory was not meant to be for an infinite time. Only the demons and the devil were sent to the eternal fire. And to be fair, people should then be sent to Hell because of their actions, and no "get out of jail" free-pass-cards allowed. Everyone would get the correct judgment, based on their intentions and actions, and no saving Jesus could spare them the time, or give them early parole. As said earlier, Maybe God is jealous. Maybe his anger does kindle. This God, contradicts the Ronald McDonald God, the happy God. Is jealousy a healthy and good virtue? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abiyoyo Posted February 2, 2009 Author Share Posted February 2, 2009 I like the old style Hell better, where the evil people were sent to Hell only for a while, so they would learn their lesson, and when they had learned humility and regretted their actions, they would slowly getting closer to Heaven. My understanding is that purgatory was not meant to be for an infinite time. Only the demons and the devil were sent to the eternal fire. And to be fair, people should then be sent to Hell because of their actions, and no "get out of jail" free-pass-cards allowed. Everyone would get the correct judgment, based on their intentions and actions, and no saving Jesus could spare them the time, or give them early parole. Is jealousy a healthy and good virtue? What about the murderer beside Christ on the cross? Was Jesus wrong saying he was entering paradise? I actually don't believe He's jealous I think that's the writers embellishment. But, if He was then He would contradict His own Law and Way. Right? Add: I don't think the Ronald McDonald God or the jealous, angered God, is God. I think Jesus preached values to humans to help us be Holy in a sort spiritually and mentally, and I think the adjectives that either the writer describes God or the writer describes God describing Himself, is just that, writings by people. I look at things like this. These people saw this or that and in their, trying to understand, said; God is angered, God's wrath was kindled. Have you ever cursed God? I have. I thought God was angry with me, causing some things to go wrong in my life. Time told that wasn't the case in my situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest kcdad Posted February 2, 2009 Share Posted February 2, 2009 I consider the eternal Hell to be unjust, regardless of crime. I consider the idea of some afterlife hell to be impossible. The presumption that there is something or someone to go into hell is even more impossible. We are a physical creature... can you think of anything in your life experience that wasn't physical? (Keep in mind that emotions are a cognitive description of a physiological response) Either we can see it, hear it, feel it, taste it or smell it... when we think of something, we put it into words that describe some sensation. Once the body dies and there are no more physical sensations... you may throw my body anywhere you like... fire, water, dirt, garbage dump or pyramid... I will neither care nor be the worse for wear. The only sense I can make out of any ancient mentioning of hell is as a description of the guilt and shame we experience when we are cast out of society or society's good graces. I like the metaphor of the Valley of Hinnom. (Gehenna... where society throws its garbage.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abiyoyo Posted February 2, 2009 Author Share Posted February 2, 2009 I read outside the Bible. Recently, the Books of Adam and Eve. It was enlightening. It gives a different perspective than Genesis. It's almost like it's the full story that had been shortened up early in Genesis. Satan is talked about much in this writing. A couple instances is one he turned into one of the angels that God originally sent to help them, another Satan made a huge fire engulfing their cave to scare them not to go in. The reason I accept this is because it. I have been trying to research into the time frame of the text and history of it, but have hit a few bumps here and there. Has anyone heard of these writings? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest kcdad Posted February 2, 2009 Share Posted February 2, 2009 I read outside the Bible. Recently, the Books of Adam and Eve. It was enlightening. It gives a different perspective than Genesis. It's almost like it's the full story that had been shortened up early in Genesis. Satan is talked about much in this writing. A couple instances is one he turned into one of the angels that God originally sent to help them, another Satan made a huge fire engulfing their cave to scare them not to go in. The reason I accept this is because it. I have been trying to research into the time frame of the text and history of it, but have hit a few bumps here and there. Has anyone heard of these writings? Satan doesn't appear in the Genesis story of Adam and Eve. I don't think Satan appears in Genesis at all. The first time I can think of Satan being mentioned is I Chronicles... Satan is not a serpent... Satan is not anyone or anything... although anyone or anything can be a satan. The word means adversary... think of your conscience battling inside your head about something you can not come to a decision over... that is satan. That is why Jesus could be tempted by satan in the wilderness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tabula Rasa Posted February 2, 2009 Share Posted February 2, 2009 I read outside the Bible. Recently, the Books of Adam and Eve. It was enlightening. It gives a different perspective than Genesis. It's almost like it's the full story that had been shortened up early in Genesis. Satan is talked about much in this writing. A couple instances is one he turned into one of the angels that God originally sent to help them, another Satan made a huge fire engulfing their cave to scare them not to go in. The reason I accept this is because it. I have been trying to research into the time frame of the text and history of it, but have hit a few bumps here and there. Has anyone heard of these writings? Yo-Yo, I've read a little bit of them. One thing that struck me was how Adam and Eve were so distraught about being thrown out of paradise that they kept committing suicide,but Yahweh kept resurrecting them. Which brings me to the point:Why even make a situation where they'd get kicked out of the Garden? Adam and Eve were like children, and we know how children are. Tell them not to do something and they'll want to do it more. Yahweh may as well have put a neon sign on the Tree of Knowledge that flashed:DON'T EAT ME. DON'T EAT ME. And why couldn't Yahweh just forgive them for their transgression? If you have kids, and you caught them stealing cookies from a jar you told them not to touch, would you drive them out in the middle of the woods and leave them? That's basically the equivalent of what Yahweh did, and it's purely unjust and evil. Yo-Yo, you really need to deconvert. You don't have to become an atheist or agnostic, you can still have a religious belief if you want, but just shop around a bit, and I think you can find a much better deity than the vicious tyrant you were raised up to believe in. A fellow like Yahweh Sabaoth has such a nasty temper he couldn't build a mud hut much less create the majestic awe that is the universe we live in, and therefore couldn't be god. I don't know if you've been on Sacred Texts.com, but if you haven't here's a link:Sacred Texts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted February 2, 2009 Share Posted February 2, 2009 I totally agree. I've asked Christians at times how Hell even can be possible. In this world, if you are put on fire, you burn up and die, within a few minutes. If we would go to Hell and be tortured in an eternal fire, either God have to give us fire-preventive skin, so we won't burn up, but still have all the nerves to feel the pain (which is a rather cruel joke), or we would keep on burning up and die and then God would restore our bodies again so we can feel the next few minutes of pain. Will the bodies pile up? Or maybe God makes it so we can't die again, but still be burnt up? Ash with a soul? It just doesn't make sense. So the burning Hell is totally out of the question. The other idea that Hell is a torture because the victims are "separated" from God, doesn't make sense either, since I'm in that state right now and I'm not suffering. It all comes out to be just ol'-time-justice thinking. I guess it feels comfortable for anyone who is unlucky in this world to feel that "those bad guys, or those who were successful when I was not, will get their punishment. Just wait and see!" In some sense I think it can give the unfortunate ones get some feeling of final justice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abiyoyo Posted February 2, 2009 Author Share Posted February 2, 2009 I like the metaphor of the Valley of Hinnom. (Gehenna... where society throws its garbage.) Yeah, me too. Hell is mentioned in the Gospels, OT. What do you believe then? Hell is in there as far as Christianity. Is it eternal torture, a pit at the end, for followers of Satan, or added for many centuries of fear? The Jews had the Law. God was with them by the Law. If the Law was broke, God would judge in the here/ now. Did you ever notice that when Israel wanted a King like the other countries, the direct presence of God got distant? Of course, later to be completely destroyed and taken into captivity. The change came when the people choose a man to lead them instead of God. Prophets became titled, becoming the priests of God pretty much in the end. Israel was released supposedly because of Daniel's life, and they started rebuilding what was lost. Then we skip to Jesus, in the Roman era of history, preaching to the now acknowledged Jews. Jesus doesn't like this whole scenario, recruiting ordinary people as pupils. When He died, he shook the foundations of Judaism. Still debated, discussed, and studied 2000 years later. Thats called impact. But, so did Muhammad in the Islam realm. They both claim God is the Father. The God of Israel. 6.71 billion people 1.5-2.1 Christian 1.3-1.8 Muslim 1.0 in China that are either irreligious, or So, in whole. 2.8-3.9 billion people believe in a religion that stems from Judaism. So now we have the Christian hell, and the Islam hell. Same hell. When God judged the people of Israel in the here and now, Did they go to hell? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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