Ouroboros Posted February 2, 2009 Share Posted February 2, 2009 So, in whole. 2.8-3.9 billion people believe in a religion that stems from Judaism. So now we have the Christian hell, and the Islam hell. Same hell. When God judged the people of Israel in the here and now, Did they go to hell? My understanding (anyone who knows more than me, correct me if I'm wrong) is that the Jews then, and now, did not believe in an afterlife for the unrighteous. "Hell" was when their bodies (and soul) were burnt to crisp, ashes, and no-more. They would cease to exist. Only the righteous would survive and go to Abraham's bosom. The Hell references Jesus is making are possibly added stuff and not at all the original belief, borrowed from the Greek/Roman mythology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abiyoyo Posted February 2, 2009 Author Share Posted February 2, 2009 Satan is not a serpent... Satan is not anyone or anything... Thats my point. In these writings, it says he was Satan. Where many presumed that the 'serpent of old' was Satan in Genesis. http://www.sacred-texts.com/chr/apo/index.htm Thats where I read it first, if you want to read them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abiyoyo Posted February 2, 2009 Author Share Posted February 2, 2009 So, in whole. 2.8-3.9 billion people believe in a religion that stems from Judaism. So now we have the Christian hell, and the Islam hell. Same hell. When God judged the people of Israel in the here and now, Did they go to hell? My understanding (anyone who knows more than me, correct me if I'm wrong) is that the Jews then, and now, did not believe in an afterlife for the unrighteous. "Hell" was when their bodies (and soul) were burnt to crisp, ashes, and no-more. They would cease to exist. Only the righteous would survive and go to Abraham's bosom. The Hell references Jesus is making are possibly added stuff and not at all the original belief, borrowed from the Greek/Roman mythology. So. Just be righteous unto God, and if Hell exists; we will rest in either Abraham's bosom, or Christ's Kingdom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abiyoyo Posted February 2, 2009 Author Share Posted February 2, 2009 Thanks for all the comments everyone. I have to log out for a while and won't be able to respond. PM me if I didn't answer any direct questions, and I will answer them when I get time. I will look in on any more responses. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saviourmachine Posted February 2, 2009 Share Posted February 2, 2009 As said earlier, Maybe God is jealous. Maybe his anger does kindle. This God, contradicts the Ronald McDonald God, the happy God. That's the only God I know. There is no such a thing as a happy God leaving us alone, without followers or preachers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest kcdad Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 Satan is not a serpent... Satan is not anyone or anything... Thats my point. In these writings, it says he was Satan. Where many presumed that the 'serpent of old' was Satan in Genesis. http://www.sacred-texts.com/chr/apo/index.htm Thats where I read it first, if you want to read them. I am not about to read all of them... show me text. Satan is not. The word satan means adversary... it is your conscience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest kcdad Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 So, in whole. 2.8-3.9 billion people believe in a religion that stems from Judaism. So now we have the Christian hell, and the Islam hell. Same hell. When God judged the people of Israel in the here and now, Did they go to hell? My understanding (anyone who knows more than me, correct me if I'm wrong) is that the Jews then, and now, did not believe in an afterlife for the unrighteous. "Hell" was when their bodies (and soul) were burnt to crisp, ashes, and no-more. They would cease to exist. Only the righteous would survive and go to Abraham's bosom. The Hell references Jesus is making are possibly added stuff and not at all the original belief, borrowed from the Greek/Roman mythology. Sheol is the grave. That is what the Jews believed awaited you after death.. nothing but the grave. One's memory lived on through their children and loved ones. (Hence the commandment to honor your parents) It is no different than the Asian belief of venerating ones ancestors. Being in the bosom of Abraham is the same as our expression being close to the heart of heart of someone...that is, remembered fondly. What does God bless you mean? May God remember you and speak well of you. It does not mean give you stuff. It is about being remembered fondly... I mentioned this before on another thread... it is what resurrection means... each February 12th (among other times) we in Illinois resurrect Abraham Lincoln... we resurrect his memory! He becomes alive again in our hearts and minds. Resurrection does not mean reanimation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwc Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 Jews had varying beliefs on what happened when they died. It evolved over time just like other beliefs. Sheol is used in the OT to reference an actual underworld and not just a state of non-existence (this is to say that it is one of the many uses of the term in the OT and not the only use of the term). A few examples: Deuteronomy 32:22 For a fire is kindled in My anger, And burns to the lowest part of Sheol, And consumes the earth with its yield, And sets on fire the foundations of the mountains. Replacing "sheol" with "the grave" is unworkable here. The "pit" or a similar concept is often used for sheol. If this is used here it makes some sense but that means that sheol is still a singular "pit" like object where the "anger" can "burn" (since individual "pits" would be awkward and having an "anger" burn to the lowest part of a metaphor concerning death, especially once that person is dead, is also awkward). It seems a place is implied. Isaiah 7:11 "Ask a sign for yourself from the Lord your God; make it deep as Sheol or high as heaven." As a counterpoint to the height of heaven the depth of a grave is rather disappointing. A few feet verses many miles. Since this was written when the Greeks were working on their heaven/hades ideas it's said that Tartarus (the lowest point in Hades) was as far from earth as earth was from heaven. This worked out to the distance an anvil could fall in 9 days and nights (I once guestimated it to be around 23,000 miles from earth to heaven but someone better in physics could probably work it out). Anyhow, this is another verse that implies a location rather than a state. Isaiah 14:15 "Nevertheless you will be thrust down to Sheol, To the recesses of the pit. Just a verse to show the connection of a "pit" with Sheol. Just looking at the way the words are used (Sheol is often paired with Abbadon) it seems this is probably a holdover from Canaanite religion where there were a number of "teams" (for lack of a better word). Sheol, like Hades, probably started as the personification of leader of the underworld but later the whole thing just sort of blended together (especially with the monotheism and all). With all the various ways this word is represented I can imagine a number of people visualizing "sheol" a number of ways. The larger Jewish idea of essentially living life instead of worrying about an afterlife makes sense (this is also why their "god" always punished in this life...he's the "god" of the living). As for a physical resurrection they also varied on that but those that believed in an actual physical resurrection likely got the idea from here: Ezekiel 37:5 This is what the Lord has said to these bones: See, I will make breath come into you so that you may come to life; 6 And I will put muscles on you and make flesh come on you, and put skin over you, and breath into you, so that you may have life; and you will be certain that I am the Lord. 7 So I gave the word as I was ordered: and at my words there was a shaking of the earth, and the bones came together, bone to bone. 8 And looking I saw that there were muscles on them and flesh came up, and they were covered with skin: but there was no breath in them. There's nothing to indicate anything other than a physical resurrection here. mwc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MathGeek Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 There is a lack of consensus on this issue. I grew up understanding that hell was a place of eternal fire and unmitigated torment. In the end, this commonly accepted perception of the eternal exclusion from the brethren is nothing more than the biggest case of fictional entrapment ever conceived. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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