Sin

[Guest end3]

Perhaps friend, we don\'t know the complete story.....if you choose to believe it, then you have been born into the story, not much more than that. If you don\'t believe, there you are. Wish I had something better to offer.

 

Perhaps we don't. So what? What if "the rest of the story" shows God to be the prick that the abridged version indicates he is? Then what?

 

If sin were our fault then some would not need a savior. That is they would not sin, because having the capacity not to sin and choosing not to sin would mean they have no sin.

 

In fact at least part of scripture says this is so, that is your salvation depends on your own behavior not the behavior of a savior. Ez 18; Mt 25. 31-46

 

By the way, since you are no longer orthodox, why do you cling to this particular orthodox nonsense?

 

I am going to answer this Chef, but I am tired....I did read the versus...and want to anwer.

[Guest end3]

Perhaps friend, we don\'t know the complete story.....if you choose to believe it, then you have been born into the story, not much more than that. If you don\'t believe, there you are. Wish I had something better to offer.

 

Then let me ask you something in sincere honesty. Why dedicate your entire life to an incomplete story and something that you can't come up with more to offer on?

 

How do you see the story as not fitting what humanity has presented? I don't think myself to be irrational....creative on occasion, but not irrational.

 

 

To you, sincerely, what would be your offer, not as putting yourself as God, but for a fix for humanity......or do you not see humanity as foobarred...

[Justin]

Perhaps friend, we don\'t know the complete story.....if you choose to believe it, then you have been born into the story, not much more than that. If you don\'t believe, there you are. Wish I had something better to offer.

 

Then let me ask you something in sincere honesty. Why dedicate your entire life to an incomplete story and something that you can't come up with more to offer on?

 

How do you see the story as not fitting what humanity has presented? I don't think myself to be irrational....creative on occasion, but not irrational.

 

 

To you, sincerely, what would be your offer, not as putting yourself as God, but for a fix for humanity......or do you not see humanity as foobarred...

 

I don't think it fits with how humanity is. You are implying that the ills of society fit with a biblical 'endtimes' prophesy. Do you think the ills of today pale in comparison to the ills of say 1941 when a world wide depression was on that would make this current recession look like a walk in the park, when the most horrific war of all time was going on and looking as if the bad guys were sure on their way to win; do you think those times were better than today? Or, if you like, compare today with any other time in history. If you are truthful, you will agree that times are better than they have ever been. Crime is still here but crime rates have dropped in recent times. It seems like you expect a perfect society, a utopia if there wasn't a god in control of everything. That simply isn't the case. But it does bring up an interesting point. You seem to think that the ills and the degradation of society equals god, but that perfection equals no god. Interesting indeed.

 

No end, i don't look at humanity as if the entire human race is the plague of existance. Perhaps if you viewed the world through eyes not clouded in religion you could see the true beauty that is there. Which brings me to your second question. I believe the world will be a better place if religion is taken out of the equation. If the division, hatred and bigotry that is brought on by religion could be silenced, then that would be a great start.

[white_raven23]

I think it's a biblical contradiction that Jesus never sinned.

 

I guess it depends on how the definition of "sin" is spin-doctored.

 

He disrespects his mother a few times.

 

Doesn't he condone the theft of a donkey too?

[Guest end3]

Perhaps we don't. So what? What if "the rest of the story" shows God to be the prick that the abridged version indicates he is? Then what?

 

If sin were our fault then some would not need a savior. That is they would not sin, because having the capacity not to sin and choosing not to sin would mean they have no sin.

 

In fact at least part of scripture says this is so, that is your salvation depends on your own behavior not the behavior of a savior. Ez 18; Mt 25. 31-46

 

By the way, since you are no longer orthodox, why do you cling to this particular orthodox nonsense?

 

 

 

 

I still want to respond to the scripture references, but want to read them again.

 

To the orthodox question......I don't want to separate myself from potentially helping or knowing anyone, regardless of their "state of belief", or just being a general ass by placing myself in some "superior" mindset. I think for some, church is a stage to pass through, part of the process that fulfills a need in our lives at a particular time. But, it's also like the picture of the tabernacle.....there are tents outside the outer walls.....for camping....

 

I'm waiting for God to put the answer to the scipture question in my head....

[chefranden]

I'm waiting for God to put the answer to the scipture question in my head....

 

Heck, I'll be dead by then.

[Guest end3]

I don't think it fits with how humanity is. You are implying that the ills of society fit with a biblical 'endtimes' prophesy.

 

Yes

 

Do you think the ills of today pale in comparison to the ills of say 1941 when a world wide depression was on that would make this current recession look like a walk in the park, when the most horrific war of all time was going on and looking as if the bad guys were sure on their way to win; do you think those times were better than today? Or, if you like, compare today with any other time in history. If you are truthful, you will agree that times are better than they have ever been.

 

I agree, but personally can't ignore many of the pieces that fit the storyline. Perhaps it is just a product of too many folks...

 

Crime is still here but crime rates have dropped in recent times. It seems like you expect a perfect society, a utopia if there wasn't a god in control of everything. That simply isn't the case. But it does bring up an interesting point. You seem to think that the ills and the degradation of society equals god, but that perfection equals no god. Interesting indeed.

 

No sir, I think the ills are a result of the story. I think the utopia was the original state, and the state that will be restored. But again, I do agree that we always think things are "going to pot".

 

No end, i don't look at humanity as if the entire human race is the plague of existance. Perhaps if you viewed the world through eyes not clouded in religion you could see the true beauty that is there.

 

J, if you have the strength to put yourself out there, by all means, do it, and sincerely I hope that you are one that leads many to a higher level. I have just recently been past that attempt only to find humanity......a lovely discovery, btw, that resides on both sides of the fence of belief. I do acknowledge that there are people who overcome this level of humanity, in and outside belief in Christ.

 

Which brings me to your second question. I believe the world will be a better place if religion is taken out of the equation. If the division, hatred and bigotry that is brought on by religion could be silenced, then that would be a great start.

 

Nah, don't wish away something that helps others...

[Guest end3]

I'm waiting for God to put the answer to the scipture question in my head....

 

Heck, I'll be dead by then.

 

If you don't want me to give you the standard OT vs NT answer, then inspiration will have to descend...or well up.

[Snafutopia]

I don't think it fits with how humanity is. You are implying that the ills of society fit with a biblical 'endtimes' prophesy.

 

Yes

 

 

Hi, End3. Sorry to barge in here, but I'm trying to find Christians who have read GaryDemar's "Last Days' Madness: Obsession of the Modern Church" (or other preterist writings). If you're familiar with the preterist view I'd appreciate hearing from you, as I have some questions. Thanks.

[Justin]

I agree, but personally can't ignore many of the pieces that fit the storyline.

 

To the religious, there will always be a story line. Not a clean slate that one can build for themselves.

 

I think the utopia was the original state, and the state that will be restored. But again, I do agree that we always think things are "going to pot".

 

Perhaps it was supposed to be a utopian state, if you want to believe the creation story. But what i was meaning is that you view all the ills of the world as a sign of the end times, which is a sure sign of god. I was just noting the irony in equating ills and end times to god and no ills and no end times to no god and how it is odd that some people, religious folk, seem to not only want to believe the first, but seem to very much enjoy it.

 

Furthermore, you tend to think things are always going to pot by thinking there is a magical story that has been layed out, like i said.

[Guest end3]

Perhaps it was supposed to be a utopian state, if you want to believe the creation story. But what i was meaning is that you view all the ills of the world as a sign of the end times, which is a sure sign of god. I was just noting the irony in equating ills and end times to god and no ills and no end times to no god and how it is odd that some people, religious folk, seem to not only want to believe the first, but seem to very much enjoy it.

 

Oh yeah, there are nutballs out there that feed on the prophecy stuff, always looking for trouble, and would probably enjoy Israel doing battle with yet another neighbor. I think you have a good point.....it is rather freeing to live without the gloom and doom and "guilt" over your head. Just a thought though, how can we appreciate those points and become the person we would like to become unless we have somewhat fulfilled the "asshat" role?......being brought to your knees, so to speak, by social pressure(s).

 

And here's the point, off the cuff, for me, it was about the ability to change. I don't know that I could or would have changed except for what I perceived as God pressing down on my existance, to the point of stopping the behaviors I was doing. That, in tune with finally understanding the grace concept, has given me a good start on fulfilling an attempt at the original plan, the "utopia" plan we were discussing.

 

Sure, maybe it is a coincedence....perhaps I could have come around by psychology course....maybe just getting older would have done it. Anyway, that was how it happened in my life.

 

Furthermore, you tend to think things are always going to pot by thinking there is a magical story that has been layed out, like i said.

 

Justin, I don't know how old you are, but please listen. I absolutely do not dismiss the beauty in humanity. In my book, children and old folks are about as good as this life gets.....did I mention sex?....yeah, and sex. The point is, as I was trying to describe in my last post, it has been my experience that has lead me to an affirmation of the Bible story. Again, I don't know your age or if you have missed "humanity" in the raw form, but I would wager that if you live long enough, you will agree. Not in the Bible story perhaps, but that on a basic level, we are corrupt, past a certain age.

 

I appreciate the conversation....

[rabbi tt]

I don't think it fits with how humanity is. You are implying that the ills of society fit with a biblical 'endtimes' prophesy.

 

Yes

 

 

Hi, End3. Sorry to barge in here, but I'm trying to find Christians who have read GaryDemar's "Last Days' Madness: Obsession of the Modern Church" (or other preterist writings). If you're familiar with the preterist view I'd appreciate hearing from you, as I have some questions. Thanks.

 

 

Some one called me a "hyperpreterist" although I have no idea what that is, because I stated that the writings of the "endtimes", in the gospels, Thessalonians and Revelation were about first century Palestine and Rome, not some time in the distant future.

[Justin]

And here's the point, off the cuff, for me, it was about the ability to change. I don't know that I could or would have changed except for what I perceived as God pressing down on my existance, to the point of stopping the behaviors I was doing. That, in tune with finally understanding the grace concept, has given me a good start on fulfilling an attempt at the original plan, the "utopia" plan we were discussing.

 

Sure, maybe it is a coincedence....perhaps I could have come around by psychology course....maybe just getting older would have done it. Anyway, that was how it happened in my life.

 

Perhaps it was, like you mentioned, a coincedence. Or maybe it was something entirely different altogether. While i was a christian i often times felt what i thought was the touch of god or thought i felt his presence. Back in 97 i went on a mission trip with my church and i remember praying and thinking god was speaking to me and telling me to go. i did go and i had one of the best times of my life. Looking back on it now, i see that it was me who wanted to go. In my excitement i thought my strong desire to go was "god" telling me to. I see now that there was nothing to it, pertaining to god anyway. I got to spend a week with great friends far from home, and that was the opportunity that i mistook for "god".

 

What do you make of people in other religions who halt wreckless and unhealty habits and behaviors because of their god?

 

Justin, I don't know how old you are, but please listen. I absolutely do not dismiss the beauty in humanity. In my book, children and old folks are about as good as this life gets.....did I mention sex?....yeah, and sex. The point is, as I was trying to describe in my last post, it has been my experience that has lead me to an affirmation of the Bible story. Again, I don't know your age or if you have missed "humanity" in the raw form, but I would wager that if you live long enough, you will agree. Not in the Bible story perhaps, but that on a basic level, we are corrupt, past a certain age.

 

Well, i am young, and perhaps i will see things differently once i get older. But i seriously don't think it will sway me towards religion. I see some of the members on here who are middle-aged and older and their beliefs and views are much the same as mine. It might have a lot to do with the individual too. One can only stick around and wait and see, and i think that is one of the beauty's of life as well.

 

I appreciate the conversation....

 

Ditto.

[Guest Tabuwn]

Why should we all be held accountable and punished for sin when it is something that cannot be helped? I mean sin is inescapable and the Bible says that only Christ was free from sin, (how impressive, you'd expect that from the son of god). If there was one normal person who never sinned in their entire life, then you might have a point in saying that it could be helped. But since it is impossible to go one's entire life without sinning, why punish them for something they cannot help. It would be like punishing somebody for sneezing, coughing or stumping their toe or some other such inescapable thing that is bound to happen in one's life at some point at least once or frequently through out it.

 

The whole concept is silly. Any christians want to attempt a decent explanation?

 

I'm new here, and have just recently ditched the label Christian. I have seen far too many viperous dispositions in the name of, and find that to be a bit disturbing considering the idea that Christians are suppose to be caring, compassionate, loving, and a light. Instead, what I see are Christians digging their thorns in the sides of those who think differently than they do. With that being said, I think I still try to follow the basic premise behind Jesus' teachings. Love is what I value most in my life, and I think also that Jesus was a pretty good example when it comes to truly loving our neighbors. You may see it differently, and that is o.k. I'm not here to push my personal convictions on anyone. I would simply like to find a place where I won't be called a heretic, damned to hell, and accused of being a blasphemer, lol. I'm sure you guys know what I'm talking about.

 

Regarding sin and punishment? It is my view that we are punished by our sins, and not for them. It is a natural consequence of making natural mistakes. For me, sin simply means to miss the mark, the mark being living in absolute accordance to both natural, and supernatural laws. All of which are nicely set in place, and quite obvious when one observes action against consequence. For every action, there is an equal, or opposite reaction. (Something like that) I think this applies to the super natural as well. Nothing spiritual here, I'm simply speaking about our emotions, and such.

 

Anyway, I'm not sure what to expect on this forum. My hope is that you will accept me as I am. Regardless of whether, or not I find Jesus to be a pretty good role model considering the nature of man.

 

Tab

[MathGeek]

Why should we all be held accountable and punished for sin when it is something that cannot be helped? I mean sin is inescapable and the Bible says that only Christ was free from sin, (how impressive, you'd expect that from the son of god). If there was one normal person who never sinned in their entire life, then you might have a point in saying that it could be helped. But since it is impossible to go one's entire life without sinning, why punish them for something they cannot help. It would be like punishing somebody for sneezing, coughing or stumping their toe or some other such inescapable thing that is bound to happen in one's life at some point at least once or frequently through out it.

 

The whole concept is silly. Any christians want to attempt a decent explanation?

 

I'm new here, and have just recently ditched the label Christian. I have seen far too many viperous dispositions in the name of, and find that to be a bit disturbing considering the idea that Christians are suppose to be caring, compassionate, loving, and a light. Instead, what I see are Christians digging their thorns in the sides of those who think differently than they do. With that being said, I think I still try to follow the basic premise behind Jesus' teachings. Love is what I value most in my life, and I think also that Jesus was a pretty good example when it comes to truly loving our neighbors. You may see it differently, and that is o.k. I'm not here to push my personal convictions on anyone. I would simply like to find a place where I won't be called a heretic, damned to hell, and accused of being a blasphemer, lol. I'm sure you guys know what I'm talking about.

 

Regarding sin and punishment? It is my view that we are punished by our sins, and not for them. It is a natural consequence of making natural mistakes. For me, sin simply means to miss the mark, the mark being living in absolute accordance to both natural, and supernatural laws. All of which are nicely set in place, and quite obvious when one observes action against consequence. For every action, there is an equal, or opposite reaction. (Something like that) I think this applies to the super natural as well. Nothing spiritual here, I'm simply speaking about our emotions, and such.

 

Anyway, I'm not sure what to expect on this forum. My hope is that you will accept me as I am. Regardless of whether, or not I find Jesus to be a pretty good role model considering the nature of man.

 

Tab

 

Hey Tab, welcome to the forum. I hope you find what you are looking for here.

 

The Christian will label you a "parasite" now because even though you've ditched the religion, you still find meaning in certain teaching of Jesus. I think that happens when somebody was born into a culture dominated by Christian thought and action. Even after posting as long as I have at this site, I still find reasons like yours to be rational. It's insanely hard not to think of Christian definitions when you've lived and breathed the religion for so long. If you find yourself still doing that, don't fret at all.

 

I accept you as you are, so welcome aboard.

[Guest Tabuwn]

Hey Tab, welcome to the forum. I hope you find what you are looking for here.

 

The Christian will label you a "parasite" now because even though you've ditched the religion, you still find meaning in certain teaching of Jesus. I think that happens when somebody was born into a culture dominated by Christian thought and action. Even after posting as long as I have at this site, I still find reasons like yours to be rational. It's insanely hard not to think of Christian definitions when you've lived and breathed the religion for so long. If you find yourself still doing that, don't fret at all.

 

I accept you as you are, so welcome aboard.

 

Thanks, MG...

 

I have found, or rather am realizing that religion causes more harm than good. Whereas, I believe 'truth' both on the physical/natural plane, and spiritual/supernatural plane lead us towards a better life. Well, it certainly can when a person is mindful of how their actions/attitudes effect the whole of society. I think we live in what I might call a bio'machine'... I'm seeing a perfect system of law, and consequence as I journey this life. It is quite amazing what a person can discover simply by taking thought, and weighing consequence.

 

The many religions tell us that there is no other way than theirs, but all of them can't be correct in this assumption. I think science teaches us about the natural, and that religion attempts to teach us about the supernatural. The problem is, they all teach us different things, so what's the point of adhering to a single one when it is quite likely that all/most/some have something valid to offer? As you can see, I like to explore different schools of thought while distancing myself from the thought that any religion has all the answers to life. None do, but I do value the golden rule, and loving others, treating them as I would want to be treated. I think going beyond these principles, we get caught up in the vanities, which can't be good for us or others.

 

 

Tab

[chefranden]

Regarding sin and punishment? It is my view that we are punished by our sins, and not for them. It is a natural consequence of making natural mistakes. For me, sin simply means to miss the mark, the mark being living in absolute accordance to both natural, and supernatural laws. All of which are nicely set in place, and quite obvious when one observes action against consequence. For every action, there is an equal, or opposite reaction. (Something like that) I think this applies to the super natural as well. Nothing spiritual here, I'm simply speaking about our emotions, and such.

 

Anyway, I'm not sure what to expect on this forum. My hope is that you will accept me as I am. Regardless of whether, or not I find Jesus to be a pretty good role model considering the nature of man.

 

Tab

 

Hi Tab,

 

Welcome.

 

About the missing of the mark thing. You can't hit the mark with any degree of accuracy until you have missed the mark many times. That is the way humans learn, like babies fall on their ass a lot to learn how to walk. To equate mistakes with any kind of spiritual condemnation is unreasonable. Of course the natural consequences are always there. If you are a baby learning to walk at the edge of a cliff, you are probably toast.

 

As for the other there are no supernatural laws. I bet you can't name one that can't be explained in natural terms.

 

chef

[Ouroboros]

The right way of flying is to jump of a cliff, and then make sure you miss ground. Missing the mark can save your life.

[Deva]

About the missing of the mark thing. You can't hit the mark with any degree of accuracy until you have missed the mark many times. That is the way humans learn, like babies fall on their ass a lot to learn how to walk. To equate mistakes with any kind of spiritual condemnation is unreasonable. Of course the natural consequences are always there. If you are a baby learning to walk at the edge of a cliff, you are probably toast.

 

I never understood the explanation of sin as "missing the mark". Doesn't it really seem as though its more than that? Yes, doesn't missing the mark mean one can try again and hit it right the next time? Second chances? But the God of the Bible doesn't treat sin that way. One cannot enter the presence of a Holy God with "sin" . This is why the atonement was necessary.

 

It does not compute.

[Guest Tabuwn]

Hi Tab,

 

Welcome.

 

About the missing of the mark thing. You can't hit the mark with any degree of accuracy until you have missed the mark many times. That is the way humans learn, like babies fall on their ass a lot to learn how to walk. To equate mistakes with any kind of spiritual condemnation is unreasonable. Of course the natural consequences are always there. If you are a baby learning to walk at the edge of a cliff, you are probably toast.

 

As for the other there are no supernatural laws. I bet you can't name one that can't be explained in natural terms.

 

chef

 

Thanks ....

 

I view supernatural laws to be very real. Reaping what you sow, do unto others, etc. They exist because when we adhere to these principles/laws, we find a great deal more joy than when we don't.

 

Tab

[Guest Tabuwn]

About the missing of the mark thing. You can't hit the mark with any degree of accuracy until you have missed the mark many times. That is the way humans learn, like babies fall on their ass a lot to learn how to walk. To equate mistakes with any kind of spiritual condemnation is unreasonable. Of course the natural consequences are always there. If you are a baby learning to walk at the edge of a cliff, you are probably toast.

 

I never understood the explanation of sin as "missing the mark". Doesn't it really seem as though its more than that? Yes, doesn't missing the mark mean one can try again and hit it right the next time? Second chances? But the God of the Bible doesn't treat sin that way. One cannot enter the presence of a Holy God with "sin" . This is why the atonement was necessary.

 

It does not compute.

 

Right, which is why I'm distancing myself from Christianity. Missing the mark, or "Sin" is nothing more than when we fall short of perfection, or break a natural/supernatural law. [iMO] We aren't punished for them but by them. Meaning if a person jumps off a cliff, bare back, he will more than likely suffer the consequences of such an action. Same is true for all laws. To me it's all just common sense. A broken rule, a consequence. There is no angry G-d dishing out punishment when we make mistakes. (As far as I can tell) The natural consequences of our mistakes are enough ....

 

Tab

[Guest Tabuwn]

The right way of flying is to jump of a cliff, and then make sure you miss ground. Missing the mark can save your life.

 

Perhaps ....

[Guest sinderella60]

About the missing of the mark thing. You can't hit the mark with any degree of accuracy until you have missed the mark many times. That is the way humans learn, like babies fall on their ass a lot to learn how to walk. To equate mistakes with any kind of spiritual condemnation is unreasonable. Of course the natural consequences are always there. If you are a baby learning to walk at the edge of a cliff, you are probably toast.

 

I never understood the explanation of sin as "missing the mark". Doesn't it really seem as though its more than that? Yes, doesn't missing the mark mean one can try again and hit it right the next time? Second chances? But the God of the Bible doesn't treat sin that way. One cannot enter the presence of a Holy God with "sin" . This is why the atonement was necessary.

 

It does not compute.

 

Right, which is why I'm distancing myself from Christianity. Missing the mark, or "Sin" is nothing more than when we fall short of perfection, or break a natural/supernatural law. [iMO] We aren't punished for them but by them. Meaning if a person jumps off a cliff, bare back, he will more than likely suffer the consequences of such an action. Same is true for all laws. To me it's all just common sense. A broken rule, a consequence. There is no angry G-d dishing out punishment when we make mistakes. (As far as I can tell) The natural consequences of our mistakes are enough ....

 

Tab

 

 

i myself am very new to these feelings of doubt. my whole life i had thought i believed in god. now looking at it, i wonder..was i just 1. believing because that was the norm, 2. because i was afraid not to, what if they are right, hell does not a pleasant picture make, or 3. hoping that there was this loving entity that would be my white knight and rescue me from the insanity of my life.

 

i tired the pentacostal thing, hell, hell, sinner and more. it got to be torture just going to church, what was the point..i was a sinner and going to hell, if i died sometime between services, i would go to hell. so i threw out the pentacostal and just believed. no church, just still believing in god.

 

then i found what i thought was the answer..spirituality and quantum physics. ah yes, we are all one united in love. meditations, OBE's, collective consciousness. and i truly felt all of this, as a matter of fact i became very good at being "empathic" i sensed people's thoughts miles away, i could remote view every where. i could astral project myself where ever i wanted. i thought i had found the answer. until, i know this will sound small to some. my little pup escaped from the fence while i was at my spiritual church loving jesus and god and everyone. my pup was killed and it took hours to find him and he was simply across the street thrown under a bush.

 

i ranted and ranted..where was god, where were these angels? and i have come to the realization. they are not there. this is the point to the story in keeping with "missing the mark" i was the one who knew the fence was old and he had just gotten out previously, i was the one who left the house and did not put the doggie door closure on. it was me, nothing to do with a god or angels or anything heavenly. just me. so yes, we live by the consequences of our own actions. everything we do has the consequence. if i step off a side of the bridge. i fall. no angels, no god. i fall. i don't know if there is anything out there, i don't know what the purpose of existence is. what i know now is it is up to me to decide. it is a foreign place. living without god. what will i do? i am trying to sort it all out. i feel like i was just born fully adult and don't know how to go about. you know all my friends are either christians or spiritualist. i don't have any one to try to sort this out with. thanks for being here.

[Guest Tabuwn]

i myself am very new to these feelings of doubt. my whole life i had thought i believed in god. now looking at it, i wonder..was i just 1. believing because that was the norm, 2. because i was afraid not to, what if they are right, hell does not a pleasant picture make, or 3. hoping that there was this loving entity that would be my white knight and rescue me from the insanity of my life.

 

i tired the pentacostal thing, hell, hell, sinner and more. it got to be torture just going to church, what was the point..i was a sinner and going to hell, if i died sometime between services, i would go to hell. so i threw out the pentacostal and just believed. no church, just still believing in god.

 

then i found what i thought was the answer..spirituality and quantum physics. ah yes, we are all one united in love. meditations, OBE's, collective consciousness. and i truly felt all of this, as a matter of fact i became very good at being "empathic" i sensed people's thoughts miles away, i could remote view every where. i could astral project myself where ever i wanted. i thought i had found the answer. until, i know this will sound small to some. my little pup escaped from the fence while i was at my spiritual church loving jesus and god and everyone. my pup was killed and it took hours to find him and he was simply across the street thrown under a bush.

 

i ranted and ranted..where was god, where were these angels? and i have come to the realization. they are not there. this is the point to the story in keeping with "missing the mark" i was the one who knew the fence was old and he had just gotten out previously, i was the one who left the house and did not put the doggie door closure on. it was me, nothing to do with a god or angels or anything heavenly. just me. so yes, we live by the consequences of our own actions. everything we do has the consequence. if i step off a side of the bridge. i fall. no angels, no god. i fall. i don't know if there is anything out there, i don't know what the purpose of existence is. what i know now is it is up to me to decide. it is a foreign place. living without god. what will i do? i am trying to sort it all out. i feel like i was just born fully adult and don't know how to go about. you know all my friends are either christians or spiritualist. i don't have any one to try to sort this out with. thanks for being here.

 

I myself still believe in G-d. Although not the G-d described in scripture. Most will call my version of G-d idolatry. I say if I'm wrong, I don't want to be right. It is very difficult to deprogram ones self from many years of indoctrination. I think many (Obviously) do come to the point where they question the 'status quo', however. I myself believe this to be the beginning of true understanding. If we do not question, then we cannot gain further insight. Indeed, doubt is one of the strongest tools for learning, imo. Many atheist shun me, just as most Christians shun me. I'm kinda in the middle right now. I believe in G-d, but I fall short of believing in the the G-d described in scripture. He seems far too angry, and merciless, and mean, and blood thirsty to be real in my mind. Even so, I have somehow held on to a belief in something greater than myself. I enjoy looking at different religions, and taking from them things which I view to be true. Of course ones theology is useless in the grand scheme of things. I myself think that a persons condition of heart is what matters most. I have realized that my actions and attitudes effects the whole of society in one way or another. When I seek peace, and when I am mindful of my attitude and actions, I always seem to fair better then when I'm not. I try to show a degree of love for all people. I do so because I know we are all pretty much the same. We all have our hardships, we all make mistakes, we all suffer, and we are all in this life together. Christianity looks down on inclusiveness, and has become a religion of exclusiveness. They have become self righteous, and vain, and pride is the basis for their intolerance.

 

With all that being said, I still admire Jesus for what He did, and for His words, and for His passion for humanity. I somehow believe that He was touched by G-d in that He lived a lifestyle few of us could ever live. I believe He loved G-d, and I also believe He loved us. He did however show a temper, and He rebuked many harshly. If Jesus were here today, He would most certainly rebuke the fundamentalists, evangelists, and nearly every other self proclaiming Christian on this earth. They are like the Scribes, and Pharisees in our modern world. "Let He who is w/o sin cast the first stone" How many Christians pick up the stone of judgment then bludgeon us over the head with their self righteousness? How many live and let live? How many show love, and compassion? How many are mindful of what they themselves do? Instead of getting their own house in order, they take out their anger, and resentment, and bitterness, and hate on those who view things different then they do. I don't know, I'm very frustrated with Christianity, and even more frustrated with whom profess to be Christian.

 

I'll follow Jesus in as much as He told me to love even my enemy. I personally believe love is the answer to the worlds problems, and also the answer to the condition of humanity. The problem is that very view value love above themselves, and their own desires. That is why we have such a shitty world today. It is a result of selfish desire, lack of mindfulness, and lack of love/compassion for those we share this world with.

 

Tab

[Guest sinderella60]

i myself am very new to these feelings of doubt. my whole life i had thought i believed in god. now looking at it, i wonder..was i just 1. believing because that was the norm, 2. because i was afraid not to, what if they are right, hell does not a pleasant picture make, or 3. hoping that there was this loving entity that would be my white knight and rescue me from the insanity of my life.

 

i tired the pentacostal thing, hell, hell, sinner and more. it got to be torture just going to church, what was the point..i was a sinner and going to hell, if i died sometime between services, i would go to hell. so i threw out the pentacostal and just believed. no church, just still believing in god.

 

then i found what i thought was the answer..spirituality and quantum physics. ah yes, we are all one united in love. meditations, OBE's, collective consciousness. and i truly felt all of this, as a matter of fact i became very good at being "empathic" i sensed people's thoughts miles away, i could remote view every where. i could astral project myself where ever i wanted. i thought i had found the answer. until, i know this will sound small to some. my little pup escaped from the fence while i was at my spiritual church loving jesus and god and everyone. my pup was killed and it took hours to find him and he was simply across the street thrown under a bush.

 

i ranted and ranted..where was god, where were these angels? and i have come to the realization. they are not there. this is the point to the story in keeping with "missing the mark" i was the one who knew the fence was old and he had just gotten out previously, i was the one who left the house and did not put the doggie door closure on. it was me, nothing to do with a god or angels or anything heavenly. just me. so yes, we live by the consequences of our own actions. everything we do has the consequence. if i step off a side of the bridge. i fall. no angels, no god. i fall. i don't know if there is anything out there, i don't know what the purpose of existence is. what i know now is it is up to me to decide. it is a foreign place. living without god. what will i do? i am trying to sort it all out. i feel like i was just born fully adult and don't know how to go about. you know all my friends are either christians or spiritualist. i don't have any one to try to sort this out with. thanks for being here.

 

I myself still believe in G-d. Although not the G-d described in scripture. Most will call my version of G-d idolatry. I say if I'm wrong, I don't want to be right. It is very difficult to deprogram ones self from many years of indoctrination. I think many (Obviously) do come to the point where they question the 'status quo', however. I myself believe this to be the beginning of true understanding. If we do not question, then we cannot gain further insight. Indeed, doubt is one of the strongest tools for learning, imo. Many atheist shun me, just as most Christians shun me. I'm kinda in the middle right now. I believe in G-d, but I fall short of believing in the the G-d described in scripture. He seems far too angry, and merciless, and mean, and blood thirsty to be real in my mind. Even so, I have somehow held on to a belief in something greater than myself. I enjoy looking at different religions, and taking from them things which I view to be true. Of course ones theology is useless in the grand scheme of things. I myself think that a persons condition of heart is what matters most. I have realized that my actions and attitudes effects the whole of society in one way or another. When I seek peace, and when I am mindful of my attitude and actions, I always seem to fair better then when I'm not. I try to show a degree of love for all people. I do so because I know we are all pretty much the same. We all have our hardships, we all make mistakes, we all suffer, and we are all in this life together. Christianity looks down on inclusiveness, and has become a religion of exclusiveness. They have become self righteous, and vain, and pride is the basis for their intolerance.

 

With all that being said, I still admire Jesus for what He did, and for His words, and for His passion for humanity. I somehow believe that He was touched by G-d in that He lived a lifestyle few of us could ever live. I believe He loved G-d, and I also believe He loved us. He did however show a temper, and He rebuked many harshly. If Jesus were here today, He would most certainly rebuke the fundamentalists, evangelists, and nearly every other self proclaiming Christian on this earth. They are like the Scribes, and Pharisees in our modern world. "Let He who is w/o sin cast the first stone" How many Christians pick up the stone of judgment then bludgeon us over the head with their self righteousness? How many live and let live? How many show love, and compassion? How many are mindful of what they themselves do? Instead of getting their own house in order, they take out their anger, and resentment, and bitterness, and hate on those who view things different then they do. I don't know, I'm very frustrated with Christianity, and even more frustrated with whom profess to be Christian.

 

I'll follow Jesus in as much as He told me to love even my enemy. I personally believe love is the answer to the worlds problems, and also the answer to the condition of humanity. The problem is that very view value love above themselves, and their own desires. That is why we have such a shitty world today. It is a result of selfish desire, lack of mindfulness, and lack of love/compassion for those we share this world with.

 

Tab

 

thank-you. i too do hope i come out of this still believing in something good. some universal goodness where we all really are just one connected.