Xianity Illegal?

[GraphicsGuy]

Something Amethyst wrote in another thread reminded me of another confusing issue I had when a Xian.

 

In fact, a number of years ago my wife and I got into a big fight over it and she almost took the kids and left.

 

At the time I was trying to follow the Bible (at least the New Testament) quite literally.

 

The first part of Romans 13 states: (1) Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. (2) Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves.

 

There are many more verses throughout the Bible that carry on this theme.

 

So, due to these verses I had a few of beliefs:

 

1. The US war of independence was based on rebellion of the governing authority therefore it was NOT ordained by God.

 

2. Underground churches in China and other countries were sinning and anyone who helped them was also sinning.

 

3. Even dictatorships were established by God.

 

My wife was furious when I expressed these opinions.

 

Fact is, from a literal stand-point I wasn't wrong. That IS what the Bible says and it doesn't say, "for there is no authority except that which God has established, except for..."

 

One thing I discovered as well is that Xianity isn't necessarily illegal in most countries (unless there is an official religion such as Islam). The religion is merely controlled to a large extent and it is illegal to hold services and meetings outside of the rules set in place.

 

It seems to me that Evangelicals are primarily the culprits when setting up underground churches and such...

[Abiyoyo]

At the time I was trying to follow the Bible (at least the New Testament) quite literally.

 

Where in the Bible does it instruct people to read the Bible literally?

[florduh]

At the time I was trying to follow the Bible (at least the New Testament) quite literally.

 

Where in the Bible does it instruct people to read the Bible literally?

 

 

Well, there is this, among others:

 

2 Timothy 3:16 (New International Version)

 

16All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,

 

 

 

 

Anyway,

 

The verse in question isn't about interpreting the burning bush, parting of the sea, or the fishes and loaves miracle as allegory, it's an instruction explaining how things are, in unequivocal and clear language.

 

If you accept the verse that says God created Man, why not the one that says God creates earthly authority? Because the latter is hard to justify in light of Hitler, Hussein, Red China, etc?

[GraphicsGuy]

Where in the Bible does it instruct people to read the Bible literally?

 

Gee, you want a list? This is what I tried to follow. This is what I tried to do, because obedience to the Word™ was demanded. This is Evangelical thinking at its core and I tried to go one step beyond because the cherry-picking was driving me crazy. How could we follow one portion yet not another?

 

Matthew 5:19

Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

 

Matthew 28:19-20 (New International Version)

19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

 

Luke 11:28 (New International Version)

He replied, "Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and obey it."

 

John 14:14-15 (New International Version)

14You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it. 15"If you love me, you will obey what I command.

 

John 14:21 (New International Version)

21Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him."

 

John 14:23 (New International Version)

23Jesus replied, "If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him.

 

John 14:24 (New International Version)

24He who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.

 

John 15:10 (New International Version)

10If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father's commands and remain in his love.

 

John 15:20 (New International Version)

20Remember the words I spoke to you: 'No servant is greater than his master.'[a] If they persecuted me, they will persecute you also. If they obeyed my teaching, they will obey yours also.

 

Romans 2:13

For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.

 

Romans 2:27

The one who is not circumcised physically and yet obeys the law will condemn you who, even though you have the written code and circumcision, are a lawbreaker.

 

Romans 6:17

But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you wholeheartedly obeyed the form of teaching to which you were entrusted.

 

Ephesians 6:5

Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ.

 

Ephesians 6:6

Obey them not only to win their favor when their eye is on you, but like slaves of Christ, doing the will of God from your heart.

 

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9 (New International Version)

7and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. 8He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power

 

2 Thessalonians 3:14

If anyone does not obey our instruction in this letter, take special note of him. Do not associate with him, in order that he may feel ashamed.

 

Hebrews 5:9

and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him

 

1 Peter 1:22

Now that you have purified yourselves by obeying the truth so that you have sincere love for your brothers, love one another deeply, from the heart.

 

1 Peter 4:17

For it is time for judgment to begin with the family of God; and if it begins with us, what will the outcome be for those who do not obey the gospel of God?

 

1 John 2:3

We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands.

 

1 John 2:5

But if anyone obeys his word, God's love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him:

 

Revelation 3:3

Remember, therefore, what you have received and heard; obey it, and repent. But if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what time I will come to you.

[Abiyoyo]

Where in the Bible does it instruct people to read the Bible literally?

 

Gee, you want a list? This is what I tried to follow. This is what I tried to do, because obedience to the Word was demanded. This is Evangelical thinking at its core and I tried to go one step beyond because the cherry-picking was driving me crazy. How could we follow one portion yet not another?

 

I understand your point here. And your verses are typical framework from the viewpoint of the literal reader. I assume you believe the Bible was/is suppose to be taken literally. I disagree. It is impossible, contradicts itself, and doesn't correlate at all with the other writings in the Bible; in general that is. So, the whole topic is moot. Are you just pondering the thought of past times, or are you wanting to discuss the why's of your topic?

 

What about give what is Caesar's to Caesar, and what is God's to God. Here's my main point to your topic. If that be the case with Authority; then Jesus would be sinful as well which would lead to a contradiction. All the Disciples, Apostles for that matter. Who is right, Paul or Jesus?

[GraphicsGuy]

It is impossible, contradicts itself, and doesn't correlate at all with the other writings in the Bible; in general that is.

 

Which is why I dumped my former beliefs when I realized this. Yeah, it's a bit of an "all or nothing approach", but the fact is that I'm better off without any god and I refuse to cherry-pick and semantic-bullshit my way through life - which is what liberal Xianity requires to my way of thinking.

 

What about give what is Caesar's to Caesar, and what is God's to God. Here's my main point to your topic. If that be the case with Authority; then Jesus would be sinful as well which would lead to a contradiction. All the Disciples, Apostles for that matter. Who is right, Paul or Jesus?

 

I'm failing to see the contradiction there. Jesus said to give the government its due and God his due.

 

The government expects your money and the Xian God expects your life...and money according to some churches...unless you're into prosperity doctrine and then God apparently gives you money...

[nightflight]

At the time I was trying to follow the Bible (at least the New Testament) quite literally.

 

Where in the Bible does it instruct people to read the Bible literally?

 

Just a thought..........if the bible instructed people not to take the bible literally, what would they then do?

[Neon Genesis]

It seems to me that Evangelicals are primarily the culprits when setting up underground churches and such...

This topic was brought up at Sunday school at my parents' church awhile back when they were studying Romans and someone asked if this verse meant that Hitler was ordained by God but the question was never answered. Wouldn't this verse also be a contradiction to Jesus' commandment to render unto Caesar's what is Caesar's yet Paul says that Caesar is ordained by God?

[Justin]

At the time I was trying to follow the Bible (at least the New Testament) quite literally.

 

Where in the Bible does it instruct people to read the Bible literally?

 

As was asked of kcdad time and again, and he always screwed around having to give a flat out, legit answer, if you choose to cherry pick from the Bible, then how do you know what is to be taken literally and what is not?

 

You are given a guide book to life and then told you are not to take it literally.

[Justin]

It seems to me that Evangelicals are primarily the culprits when setting up underground churches and such...

This topic was brought up at Sunday school at my parents' church awhile back when they were studying Romans and someone asked if this verse meant that Hitler was ordained by God but the question was never answered. Wouldn't this verse also be a contradiction to Jesus' commandment to render unto Caesar's what is Caesar's yet Paul says that Caesar is ordained by God?

 

Many christians believe that god sets up people who may not be the nicest on the planet so that events will play out how he wants them to. Like with Judas's betrayal of Jesus and basically paving the way for all mankind to get saved by the shedding of Christ's blood, the keeping of Pharoah in power so that god could harden his heart so that his power could be seen through him and so forth. I have even heard from some christians that WW2 was completly orchestrated by god so that he could set up the USA as the dominant power on the planet.

[OpheliaGinger]

And they all go to hell even thought they were just God's pawns.

[GraphicsGuy]

Wouldn't this verse also be a contradiction to Jesus' commandment to render unto Caesar's what is Caesar's yet Paul says that Caesar is ordained by God?

 

I don't see how that is a contradiction. Sounds like they're saying the same thing to me...???

[freeday]

Something Amethyst wrote in another thread reminded me of another confusing issue I had when a Xian.

 

In fact, a number of years ago my wife and I got into a big fight over it and she almost took the kids and left.

 

At the time I was trying to follow the Bible (at least the New Testament) quite literally.

 

The first part of Romans 13 states: (1) Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. (2) Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves.

 

There are many more verses throughout the Bible that carry on this theme.

 

So, due to these verses I had a few of beliefs:

 

1. The US war of independence was based on rebellion of the governing authority therefore it was NOT ordained by God.

 

2. Underground churches in China and other countries were sinning and anyone who helped them was also sinning.

 

3. Even dictatorships were established by God.

 

My wife was furious when I expressed these opinions.

 

Fact is, from a literal stand-point I wasn't wrong. That IS what the Bible says and it doesn't say, "for there is no authority except that which God has established, except for..."

 

One thing I discovered as well is that Xianity isn't necessarily illegal in most countries (unless there is an official religion such as Islam). The religion is merely controlled to a large extent and it is illegal to hold services and meetings outside of the rules set in place.

 

It seems to me that Evangelicals are primarily the culprits when setting up underground churches and such...

 

I have found that reading the entire bible will give you a better understand of what God is trying to say. God gives the reader the ability to discern what is right and what is wrong. In the above mentioned verse He is merely saying respect government authority, yet the bible makes very clear that we should not compromise on our morals. If you logically think about it, Governments are established to prevent anarchy and chaos; thus there is a clear benefit to society in having a governing body. However, the bible makes it abundantly pronounced that it is in our best benefit to give our allegiance to Christ.

[Abiyoyo]

I have found that reading the entire bible will give you a better understand of what God is trying to say. God gives the reader the ability to discern what is right and what is wrong. In the above mentioned verse He is merely saying respect government authority, yet the bible makes very clear that we should not compromise on our morals. If you logically think about it, Governments are established to prevent anarchy and chaos; thus there is a clear benefit to society in having a governing body. However, the bible makes it abundantly pronounced that it is in our best benefit to give our allegiance to Christ.

 

[GraphicsGuy]

I have found that reading the entire bible will give you a better understand of what God is trying to say. God gives the reader the ability to discern what is right and what is wrong. In the above mentioned verse He is merely saying respect government authority, yet the bible makes very clear that we should not compromise on our morals. If you logically think about it, Governments are established to prevent anarchy and chaos; thus there is a clear benefit to society in having a governing body.

 

Oh, I quite understood/understand this. Yes, we have to use our own brains and judgment. Doesn't change the meaning of what it says though. It doesn't magically change those passages to "except in these cases" or "unless you are told to do such and such".

 

The next part of Romans 13 points out that the Bible is also very clear on consequences:

 

Romans 13:3-5 (New International Version)

3For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. 4For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience.

 

However, the bible makes it abundantly pronounced that it is in our best benefit to give our allegiance to Christ.

 

Just to avoid hell?

 

My experience with Christ was leading me to insanity and suicide. Xianity offers me no benefit whatsoever.

[Snafutopia]

...

At the time I was trying to follow the Bible (at least the New Testament) quite literally.

...

Fact is, from a literal stand-point I wasn't wrong. That IS what the Bible says and it doesn't say, "for there is no authority except that which God has established, except for..."

 

 

I know exactly what you mean. I tried to follow the Bible literally too, because the Baptist church people insisted that's what everybody is supposed to do -- but as time went by you couldn't help noticing, even the most rabid of them only take bits and pieces of it literally -- the bits and pieces that agree with their own views.

 

And all those Bible verses about government ... ever since Obama was elected, they've absolutely tossed those out the window

[GraphicsGuy]

but as time went by you couldn't help noticing, even the most rabid of them only take bits and pieces of it literally -- the bits and pieces that agree with their own views.

 

The rabid ones are the worst, because you can't tell them anything. They are going to do what they want to do and will make their beliefs fit their lifestyle.

 

They point out faults like crazy, yet could be doing the same things themselves and if you point it out in them they get pissed off and say, "That's different!"

 

Generally very insecure people that can't seem to handle alternative viewpoints. They want the world to be a little tidy package just for them.

[freeday]

I have found that reading the entire bible will give you a better understand of what God is trying to say. God gives the reader the ability to discern what is right and what is wrong. In the above mentioned verse He is merely saying respect government authority, yet the bible makes very clear that we should not compromise on our morals. If you logically think about it, Governments are established to prevent anarchy and chaos; thus there is a clear benefit to society in having a governing body.

 

Oh, I quite understood/understand this. Yes, we have to use our own brains and judgment. Doesn't change the meaning of what it says though. It doesn't magically change those passages to "except in these cases" or "unless you are told to do such and such".

 

The next part of Romans 13 points out that the Bible is also very clear on consequences:

 

Romans 13:3-5 (New International Version)

3For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. 4For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience.

 

However, the bible makes it abundantly pronounced that it is in our best benefit to give our allegiance to Christ.

 

Just to avoid hell?

 

My experience with Christ was leading me to insanity and suicide. Xianity offers me no benefit whatsoever.

 

I am not sure what denomination you were part of, but I am not a big fan of the 50's turn or burn mentality which I am picking up on. The Gospels record several times before Jesus performed his miracles of healing that he was moved with "compassion." These people He healed were people of all walks of life; Jew, Gentile, sinner and believer. I believe in a God that has compassion for his people, not a hate of them. I am sorry that somebody taught you bad hermeneutics which lead to you having harsh feelings towards Christianity.

[Kuroikaze]

I am not sure what denomination you were part of, but I am not a big fan of the 50's turn or burn mentality which I am picking up on. The Gospels record several times before Jesus performed his miracles of healing that he was moved with "compassion." These people He healed were people of all walks of life; Jew, Gentile, sinner and believer. I believe in a God that has compassion for his people, not a hate of them. I am sorry that somebody taught you bad hermeneutics which lead to you having harsh feelings towards Christianity.

 

"turn or burn" was hardly a 50's mentality. Throughout most of christian history it has been the default. Kill witches, kill Jews, kill Muslims, kill homosexuals, kill women who don't know their place. This isn't new, it was around long before the 1950's.

 

Apparently you know better though right? All of us learned a bad version of Christianity. Sure, it was the Christianity that many people followed for hundreds of years, but you know better than them too right? If we had just followed you're new and improved Christianity we would all still be believers, we just didn't follow the right ( in other words your) version of Christianity.

[GraphicsGuy]

I am sorry that somebody taught you bad hermeneutics which lead to you having harsh feelings towards Christianity.

 

These things that I mention are just additional reasons why I hate Xianity. They are not the reason nor the source of my anger at it.

 

I was raised Pentecostal/Evangelical. Yes, it's only one branch, but "polish a turd, it's still a turd".

 

I have no need for any god and receive absolutely no benefit from "faith". I have no problem with personal spirituality, however I truly believe that organized religion is a diseased parasite that feeds off of people instead of feeding them.

[Guest kcdad]

At the time I was trying to follow the Bible (at least the New Testament) quite literally.

 

Where in the Bible does it instruct people to read the Bible literally?

 

As was asked of kcdad time and again, and he always screwed around having to give a flat out, legit answer, if you choose to cherry pick from the Bible, then how do you know what is to be taken literally and what is not?

 

You are given a guide book to life and then told you are not to take it literally.

 

Come now.. let us reason together...

 

2Tim 3: is not a talking about The Bible. It is saying that ALL Writing inspired by God (whether written by Paul, Peter, Moses, Ezra, followers of The Buddha, followers of Allah and Mohammad (MHNBP) or anyone else is suitable for teaching etc... The New Testament wasn't written yet and certainly not Canonized when this written. God breathed is an idiom now just as it was then... INSPIRED = breathed... Whistler's mother may have inspired the painting of the same name, but Whistler painted it... NOT his mother.

 

Just because I didn't give you the answer you are looking for, doesn't mean I didn't give you a legitimate answer.

 

Who (until The Holy Roman Empire) ever said The Bible was a guide book to life?

[Guest kcdad]

I know exactly what you mean. I tried to follow the Bible literally too, because the Baptist church people insisted that's what everybody is supposed to do -- but as time went by you couldn't help noticing, even the most rabid of them only take bits and pieces of it literally -- the bits and pieces that agree with their own views

 

See? Here is the problem.

 

The Baptist, or so and so church, people said something is true so it is...

 

Lenny Bruce observed nearly 50 years ago "...everyday people are leaving the church and finding God..." If you don't like the G word substitute "Truth".

 

Fundamentalism of any sort is pointless.

[freeday]

I am not sure what denomination you were part of, but I am not a big fan of the 50's turn or burn mentality which I am picking up on. The Gospels record several times before Jesus performed his miracles of healing that he was moved with "compassion." These people He healed were people of all walks of life; Jew, Gentile, sinner and believer. I believe in a God that has compassion for his people, not a hate of them. I am sorry that somebody taught you bad hermeneutics which lead to you having harsh feelings towards Christianity.

 

"turn or burn" was hardly a 50's mentality. Throughout most of christian history it has been the default. Kill witches, kill Jews, kill Muslims, kill homosexuals, kill women who don't know their place. This isn't new, it was around long before the 1950's.

 

Apparently you know better though right? All of us learned a bad version of Christianity. Sure, it was the Christianity that many people followed for hundreds of years, but you know better than them too right? If we had just followed you're new and improved Christianity we would all still be believers, we just didn't follow the right ( in other words your) version of Christianity.

 

Ouch, such harsh words . I never claimed to "know better" than the Christians that came before me. I do feel there is a trend from a strict literal interpretation of the bible to a more all-inclusive hermeneutical approach that takes the whole biblical theme into account and not just picking out verses. I can't say I have ever read in the bible where it says that I should kill people who are not of my reasoning; thus I must have a better Christian theology than all of those people who committed the aforementioned atrocities you stated. I don't think that any person in my congregation would approve of these heinous acts, which you claim are an extensive part of our dogma.

[freeday]

I am sorry that somebody taught you bad hermeneutics which lead to you having harsh feelings towards Christianity.

 

These things that I mention are just additional reasons why I hate Xianity. They are not the reason nor the source of my anger at it.

 

I was raised Pentecostal/Evangelical. Yes, it's only one branch, but "polish a turd, it's still a turd".

 

I have no need for any god and receive absolutely no benefit from "faith". I have no problem with personal spirituality, however I truly believe that organized religion is a diseased parasite that feeds off of people instead of feeding them.

 

I also do not have a problem with people who do not have spirituality, or a specific faith such as I have. I understand why someone would not believe in Christianity. What I don't understand is the recurring theme that I see; which is a vehemence hatred for Christianity. If it is not for you, then disregard it; but I find it counter productive to spend time hating anything.

[Justin]

Just because I didn't give you the answer you are looking for, doesn't mean I didn't give you a legitimate answer

 

You still failed to give me a legitimate answer.

 

Who (until The Holy Roman Empire) ever said The Bible was a guide book to life?

 

Take a trip down to the Bible Belt and there you shall get your answers. Also, the Bible itself. Jesus referred to the flood and creation as if they actually happened. Then there is the verse where Jesus states that not one thing is to be taken down or altered until his return. "Your word is truth" (John 17:17). Jesus said this as he prayed to god.

 

"2 Timothy 3:16 tells us that "all Scripture is given by inspiration of God". The word "inspiration" is the Greek word theopneustos, which may literally be translated "God-breathed". So we see immediately that God Himself "breathed" the Scriptures.

This means that the Bible is God's words and thoughts to us. The various books that make up the Bible were written via God's chosen instruments who were moved, or literally "carried", by God's Spirit (2 Peter 1:21). The Bible does not consist of thoughts which are human in origin, even though its teaching is expressed in the language of humans for our understanding."

 

http://www.rightdivision.com/html/the_inspired_bible.html