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Goodbye Jesus

The Horrible Implication Of Their Doctrine.


nightflight

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What I am trying to express is the OP seemed to imply that free will is not an option, and that the created will go to hell as that is how God has provided. It would be my humble opinion that God knows who will end up there, but gives us the opportunity to overcome and be free of the filth of this world on our own , (that option provided for by Jesus), as that in itself is the success and joy, etc. of life.

 

"Free will" is irrelevant to the OP. The Christian paradigm is horribly tragic in light of god's omniscience. Why bring a child into the world when the possibility is there that he/she will wind up suffering, never ending suffering at the hands of your "loving" god?

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I want you to answer a simple question: Did God have a favored people or not?

Jesus is for all. God is immutable. Please connect the dots brother.

Immutable means that God cannot change. So is your answer that God had a favorite people and he can't change that, so Christians can just as well forget going to Heaven?

 

The Old Testament is pretty clear about the Jews as "His Chosen People." If God can't change that (immutable), then the Jews are still God's only chosen people, and Christians are not.

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What would be the point of creating humanity where everyone ends up in Heaven as a result not of their own doing.

 

The same goes for the inverse; why create humanity when most will go to Hell without meaning to?

 

 

Doc,

Maybe I am not understanding, but why would you not assume that God would not be a fair judge.

 

If we're going by the Bible's information, then he doesn't seem a fair judge. Demanding belief and worship without proof or reason, adherence to old legalistic laws etc. Seems more like a capricious tyrant than a fair judge.

 

Are you assuming that first God is just and that if something, scripture or otherwise contradicts that, then it is false? That would be different, but I'm forming my assumption based on traditional biblical interpretation. I'd like to be clear on what you mean though.

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What I am trying to express is the OP seemed to imply that free will is not an option, and that the created will go to hell as that is how God has provided. It would be my humble opinion that God knows who will end up there, but gives us the opportunity to overcome and be free of the filth of this world on our own , (that option provided for by Jesus), as that in itself is the success and joy, etc. of life.

 

"Free will" is irrelevant to the OP. The Christian paradigm is horribly tragic in light of god's omniscience. Why bring a child into the world when the possibility is there that he/she will wind up suffering, never ending suffering at the hands of your "loving" god?

 

I see your point, but again, the point that I was trying to get across......we perhaps, are the ones causing the suffering?

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I want you to answer a simple question: Did God have a favored people or not?

Jesus is for all. God is immutable. Please connect the dots brother.

Immutable means that God cannot change. So is your answer that God had a favorite people and he can't change that, so Christians can just as well forget going to Heaven?

 

The Old Testament is pretty clear about the Jews as "His Chosen People." If God can't change that (immutable), then the Jews are still God's only chosen people, and Christians are not.

 

Your statement is diametrically opposed to what I said.....and I think you know that.

 

My question is, by what criteria are they "chosen"?

 

edit: I misread your post Hans. My thoughts would be the latter statement, that God's people were chosen on their ability to adhere to the God's original purpose for humanity......just a thought

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What would be the point of creating humanity where everyone ends up in Heaven as a result not of their own doing.

 

The same goes for the inverse; why create humanity when most will go to Hell without meaning to?

 

 

Doc,

Maybe I am not understanding, but why would you not assume that God would not be a fair judge.

 

If we're going by the Bible's information, then he doesn't seem a fair judge. Demanding belief and worship without proof or reason, adherence to old legalistic laws etc. Seems more like a capricious tyrant than a fair judge.

 

Are you assuming that first God is just and that if something, scripture or otherwise contradicts that, then it is false? That would be different, but I'm forming my assumption based on traditional biblical interpretation. I'd like to be clear on what you mean though.

 

Could be a long discussion Doc, but I will admit, there are things that don't seem consistant to me.....at times......I do feel however that perspective plays a large role in understanding.

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Could be a long discussion Doc, but I will admit, there are things that don't seem consistant to me.....at times......I do feel however that perspective plays a large role in understanding.

 

Well if you ever feel like it I'd be interested in hearing.

 

I get what you're saying about perspective though. It's an argument that could be valid, but is incredibly unsatisfactory for most of us. I'd like to think that a benevolent God would take our limited perspective into account when laying things out. And if by our perspective we just can't understand things, then why should we accept them? Gotta go with what you know, I think.

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Christian apologetics...taking the logical holes to be axioms since 33 A.D.

 

This message paid for by The Foundation of Disgruntled Ex-Christians.

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I want you to answer a simple question: Did God have a favored people or not?

Jesus is for all. God is immutable. Please connect the dots brother.

Immutable means that God cannot change. So is your answer that God had a favorite people and he can't change that, so Christians can just as well forget going to Heaven?

 

The Old Testament is pretty clear about the Jews as "His Chosen People." If God can't change that (immutable), then the Jews are still God's only chosen people, and Christians are not.

 

Your statement is diametrically opposed to what I said.....and I think you know that.

 

My question is, by what criteria are they "chosen"?

 

edit: I misread your post Hans. My thoughts would be the latter statement, that God's people were chosen on their ability to adhere to the God's original purpose for humanity......just a thought

 

I don't know. I asked you a simple question. Does God have a chosen people? You answered "Jesus for all." Which is not an answer. You're a coward. You're afraid to face my questions honestly. The Bible says that God has a favored people. But you want to play games and stupify people with your big sounding words and answering questions with questions.

 

Just be a man (I assume you're a man) and speak the truth. Genesis Chapter 12 says that God favored the Israelites. God was partial to them and gave them the land of the Canaanites. It's right there in the text. You may have an explanation why this was, but don't deny it because it makes you look like you have something to hide.

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Christian apologetics...taking the logical holes to be axioms since 33 A.D.

 

This message paid for by The Foundation of Disgruntled Ex-Christians.

 

matter of fact...the people that God uses always seemed to be at the bottom of the heap.....I'll be darned

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Christian apologetics...taking the logical holes to be axioms since 33 A.D.

 

This message paid for by The Foundation of Disgruntled Ex-Christians.

 

matter of fact...the people that God uses always seemed to be at the bottom of the heap.....I'll be darned

 

 

And he used them often to slaughter other people.

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Christian apologetics...taking the logical holes to be axioms since 33 A.D.

 

This message paid for by The Foundation of Disgruntled Ex-Christians.

 

matter of fact...the people that God uses always seemed to be at the bottom of the heap.....I'll be darned

 

And I will make you a great nation, And I will bless you, And make your name great; And so you shall be a blessing; And I will bless those who bless you, And the one who curses you I will curse. And in you all the families of the earth will be blessed." Genesis 12:2-3.

 

That sounds like God has a favorite people to me. Why did God select this tiny group? Why didn't he chose the Iroquois, or the Chinese for that matter? If it wasn't arbitrary, did the Israelites have some special merit? If so, what was that special merit? Maybe it was arbitrary? Is God arbitrary? Why did he chose to kill the first born of Egyptian families? What did a little baby Egyptian do wrong?

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Christian apologetics...taking the logical holes to be axioms since 33 A.D.

 

This message paid for by The Foundation of Disgruntled Ex-Christians.

 

matter of fact...the people that God uses always seemed to be at the bottom of the heap.....I'll be darned

 

And I will make you a great nation, And I will bless you, And make your name great; And so you shall be a blessing; And I will bless those who bless you, And the one who curses you I will curse. And in you all the families of the earth will be blessed." Genesis 12:2-3.

 

That sounds like God has a favorite people to me. Why did God select this tiny group? Why didn't he chose the Iroquois, or the Chinese for that matter? If it wasn't arbitrary, did the Israelites have some special merit? If so, what was that special merit? Maybe it was arbitrary? Is God arbitrary? Why did he chose to kill the first born of Egyptian families? What did a little baby Egyptian do wrong?

 

Gen 12:2 "I will make you into a great nation and I will bless you; I will make your name great, and you will be a blessing.

 

 

Gen 12:3 I will bless those who bless you, and whoever curses you I will curse; and all peoples on earth will be blessed through you."

 

This is the NIV translation. S, I will give you an honest answer on my part. I apologize for making you frustrated. I am myself more aquainted with being an ass than a better alternative.

 

Where it says from Abram, God will make his people a great nation....I would think that means "people of faith" as Abraham is considered to be the father of faith.

 

In verse 3...it says all people will be blessed....

 

To give you an answer. God's people, IMO, would be defined as those who are faithful to Him. I am also assuming that the people that God wanted out of the promise land were those that had displayed their choice, a choice for evil. I do think Jesus makes it possible for all people to be God's people, and by the word "all" in verse 3, that is consitent with our choice in Jesus and the choice of God, for all to be His. So no, I don't think he selects who will believe and who will not and predestins them to hell, but I do not ignore the places where God uses folks to tell the story.

 

I sincerely hope that helps

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Christian apologetics...taking the logical holes to be axioms since 33 A.D.

 

This message paid for by The Foundation of Disgruntled Ex-Christians.

 

matter of fact...the people that God uses always seemed to be at the bottom of the heap.....I'll be darned

 

 

And he used them often to slaughter other people.

 

 

I doubt NF that if you are a dad, that you would welcome the violation of your children as you have implied here....

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Christian apologetics...taking the logical holes to be axioms since 33 A.D.

 

This message paid for by The Foundation of Disgruntled Ex-Christians.

 

matter of fact...the people that God uses always seemed to be at the bottom of the heap.....I'll be darned

 

And I will make you a great nation, And I will bless you, And make your name great; And so you shall be a blessing; And I will bless those who bless you, And the one who curses you I will curse. And in you all the families of the earth will be blessed." Genesis 12:2-3.

 

That sounds like God has a favorite people to me. Why did God select this tiny group? Why didn't he chose the Iroquois, or the Chinese for that matter? If it wasn't arbitrary, did the Israelites have some special merit? If so, what was that special merit? Maybe it was arbitrary? Is God arbitrary? Why did he chose to kill the first born of Egyptian families? What did a little baby Egyptian do wrong?

 

Gen 12:2 "I will make you into a great nation and I will bless you; I will make your name great, and you will be a blessing.

 

 

Gen 12:3 I will bless those who bless you, and whoever curses you I will curse; and all peoples on earth will be blessed through you."

 

This is the NIV translation. S, I will give you an honest answer on my part. I apologize for making you frustrated. I am myself more aquainted with being an ass than a better alternative.

 

Where it says from Abram, God will make his people a great nation....I would think that means "people of faith" as Abraham is considered to be the father of faith.

 

In verse 3...it says all people will be blessed....

 

To give you an answer. God's people, IMO, would be defined as those who are faithful to Him. I am also assuming that the people that God wanted out of the promise land were those that had displayed their choice, a choice for evil. I do think Jesus makes it possible for all people to be God's people, and by the word "all" in verse 3, that is consitent with our choice in Jesus and the choice of God, for all to be His. So no, I don't think he selects who will believe and who will not and predestins them to hell, but I do not ignore the places where God uses folks to tell the story.

 

I sincerely hope that helps

 

That does help and is an honest answer. I think it leads to some difficult problems, which we can discuss. The main issue is whether God prefers people that are obedient and do good. If so, that's a preference, but probably a legitimate preference.

 

However, it leads to the following problem. What happens to righteous Native Americans who lived before the time of Christ? They woudn't have been on notice about God's laws. If you think that moral Native Americans who lived B.C. get to go to heaven, that's one thing. But if you don't, I think you should agree that God is being a bit unfair and baised in favor of people that lived on the Eurasian continent between 1 AD and 1492.

 

Incidently, I think that the Bible, though flawed, is a valuable guide to the truth. It isn't the only guide, but it's a valuable and important one.

 

I'm glad to have been wrong about my previous comments regarding your courage.

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Christian apologetics...taking the logical holes to be axioms since 33 A.D.

 

This message paid for by The Foundation of Disgruntled Ex-Christians.

 

matter of fact...the people that God uses always seemed to be at the bottom of the heap.....I'll be darned

 

 

And he used them often to slaughter other people.

 

 

I doubt NF that if you are a dad, that you would welcome the violation of your children as you have implied here....

 

I don't know what you mean.

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To give you an answer. God's people, IMO, would be defined as those who are faithful to Him.

 

That may be how Christians interpret it, but this is not how the Old Testament sees it. Israel was chosen as the people of God despite their unbelief. They were also chose as a nation, not as a religious group of believers. God's rules for his Chosen People included rules for what to do if and when they worshiped other gods (i.e. when they were not faithful to him). So you cannot answer the question, "Who are God's people?" by stating, "Those who are faithful to him." Again, this is because the people of Israel are "his people" and have not been faithful. In fact, they are not faithful today, and yet the Bible still declares them to be his people ... his nation:

 

“Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, [and] the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts [is] his name: If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, [then] the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever. Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.” (Jer 31:35-37 AV)

 

According to the above passage from Jeremiah, it would take the removal of the moon, stars and the waves of the sea before god would cast off his people, Israel. Since I saw the moon the other night and since the waves are still crashing against the shore, then I suppose the Bible would still consider Israel to be "his people." And this is despite the fact that the vast majority of them still denounce Christ and that a large portion are even agnostic or atheistic.

 

Oh, and if you try to talk about the church replacing Israel ... the church being the "Israel of god," then you open up a whole different can of worms for the immutable god that changes not and gives his gifts "without repentance." So either Israel is still, according to the Bible, the people of god, despite their lack of faith in Christ or god is not immutable. Take you pick. There are problems either way you go.

 

Back on topic:

 

If Christians really believed the Bible and, more importantly, the dogma that they are taught, then they would kill their children themselves the moment they are born! After all, most believe that a child's sin is covered by the sacrifice of Christ and that the child is not accountable for his own sin until a certain age (the age of reason?). While this age may be debated in Christian circles, most would agree that an dead infant would go to heaven. If someone honestly believed this, then why bring a child into the world at all and, if you did, why not kill them immediately? You would be doing them a favor!

 

According to the Bible, the world is filled with evil and the life of man is destined for encounter trouble. By bringing a child into the world the Christian is dooming his child to experiencing a vile, sinful, fallen world. According to the Bible, the vast number of humanity from all time will find the wide gate that leads to destruction (hell and everlasting torment) and very few will find the narrow gate that leads to life. Therefore, by playing a pure numbers game, most Christian children, being no different than any other human brought into the world, will end up ultimately in hell! But by killing them after they exit the womb the Christian mother and father would guarantee them a place in heaven! Why take the chance, Christian! Kill your children NOW and send them to paradise!

 

The god of the Bible is exceedingly WICKED and EVIL. He supposedly knows all things and yet he FORMS each child in the womb KNOWING that the vast number of them will be tormented FOREVER AND EVER. It is obvious that the god of the Bible delights in death and torment. If you take the Bible stories are real, then god created a world in full knowledge that the people he created would turn against him and in full knowledge that the result of that decision would lead immeasurable suffering in this life and eternal suffering in the next for the vast, vast majority of all who ever lived.

 

Shall not the judge of the earth do that which is right?

 

The answer to that question is an absolute and resounding NO!

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To give you an answer. God's people, IMO, would be defined as those who are faithful to Him.

 

That may be how Christians interpret it, but this is not how the Old Testament sees it. Israel was chosen as the people of God despite their unbelief. They were also chose as a nation, not as a religious group of believers. God's rules for his Chosen People included rules for what to do if and when they worshiped other gods (i.e. when they were not faithful to him). So you cannot answer the question, "Who are God's people?" by stating, "Those who are faithful to him." Again, this is because the people of Israel are "his people" and have not been faithful. In fact, they are not faithful today, and yet the Bible still declares them to be his people ... his nation:

 

“Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, [and] the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts [is] his name: If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, [then] the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever. Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.” (Jer 31:35-37 AV)

 

According to the above passage from Jeremiah, it would take the removal of the moon, stars and the waves of the sea before god would cast off his people, Israel. Since I saw the moon the other night and since the waves are still crashing against the shore, then I suppose the Bible would still consider Israel to be "his people." And this is despite the fact that the vast majority of them still denounce Christ and that a large portion are even agnostic or atheistic.

 

Oh, and if you try to talk about the church replacing Israel ... the church being the "Israel of god," then you open up a whole different can of worms for the immutable god that changes not and gives his gifts "without repentance." So either Israel is still, according to the Bible, the people of god, despite their lack of faith in Christ or god is not immutable. Take you pick. There are problems either way you go.

 

Back on topic:

 

If Christians really believed the Bible and, more importantly, the dogma that they are taught, then they would kill their children themselves the moment they are born! After all, most believe that a child's sin is covered by the sacrifice of Christ and that the child is not accountable for his own sin until a certain age (the age of reason?). While this age may be debated in Christian circles, most would agree that an dead infant would go to heaven. If someone honestly believed this, then why bring a child into the world at all and, if you did, why not kill them immediately? You would be doing them a favor!

 

According to the Bible, the world is filled with evil and the life of man is destined for encounter trouble. By bringing a child into the world the Christian is dooming his child to experiencing a vile, sinful, fallen world. According to the Bible, the vast number of humanity from all time will find the wide gate that leads to destruction (hell and everlasting torment) and very few will find the narrow gate that leads to life. Therefore, by playing a pure numbers game, most Christian children, being no different than any other human brought into the world, will end up ultimately in hell! But by killing them after they exit the womb the Christian mother and father would guarantee them a place in heaven! Why take the chance, Christian! Kill your children NOW and send them to paradise!

 

The god of the Bible is exceedingly WICKED and EVIL. He supposedly knows all things and yet he FORMS each child in the womb KNOWING that the vast number of them will be tormented FOREVER AND EVER. It is obvious that the god of the Bible delights in death and torment. If you take the Bible stories are real, then god created a world in full knowledge that the people he created would turn against him and in full knowledge that the result of that decision would lead immeasurable suffering in this life and eternal suffering in the next for the vast, vast majority of all who ever lived.

 

Shall not the judge of the earth do that which is right?

 

The answer to that question is an absolute and resounding NO!

 

Glad you went to school to learn all that...

 

Answer me this, what option do you give to your children?

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If children get a free pass to heaven, then why did not Yahweh just create a race of beings that all died young? That way all could go to heaven!

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Glad you went to school to learn all that...

 

I didn't learn that in school. You make many assumptions.

 

Answer me this, what option do you give to your children?

 

Once you start trying to give an answer to other people's questions directed at you, then I might consider answering yours.

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Glad you went to school to learn all that...

 

I didn't learn that in school. You make many assumptions.

 

Answer me this, what option do you give to your children?

 

Once you start trying to give an answer to other people's questions directed at you, then I might consider answering yours.

 

What questions did I not answer?

 

If you only knew how little I care for your canned responses.....

 

And here's the point. If anyone could be held accountable for the plight of these folks here, it would be because of people like you. I can read you from 10 miles away......fundamentalist with no inspiration preaching to the masses to the point of insanity. Did my time listening to crap that rolls from the backside. You better hope there is no God....

 

Hans, I would request you change him back to a squiddie, but ...

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Hans, I would request you change him back to a squiddie, but ...

 

Hans knows better. I don't believe in any god, Bible or otherwise.

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And here's the point. If anyone could be held accountable for the plight of these folks here, it would be because of people like you. I can read you from 10 miles away......fundamentalist with no inspiration preaching to the masses to the point of insanity. Did my time listening to crap that rolls from the backside. You better hope there is no God....

 

Hans, I would request you change him back to a squiddie, but ...

 

Ah, another one who bringeth us the True Faith.

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Seriously, why do these Christians keep coming here? Why? Why? Why? Why? Why?

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Seriously, why do these Christians keep coming here? Why? Why? Why? Why? Why?

Maybe their faith is like a callus and it needs to be regularly abraded in order to be maintained.

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