Merlinfmct87 Posted April 18, 2005 Share Posted April 18, 2005 Well, this post not only helped my mum out in a huge way, I feel it brought out a big part of what makes this forum so great.. honesty. I can't stand to see it die, so I'm re-posting it here. Archival Source is Here. Enjoy... Merlin Odd Question: How has the Church Harmed you? Track this topic | Email this topic | Print this topic Merlinfmct87 Posted: Dec 21 2004, 08:43 PM Report PostEdit PostQuote Post apostate ******* Group: Senior Members Posts: 747 Member No.: 280 Joined: 7-November 04 Wicca("Do no harm") and Objectivism QUOTE Religion has had and used its martyrs to get to where it is now, and I believe, to get a ground swell of atheists, we need the same -- people to speak out openly and proudly -- we need to stand up and be counted, speak our opinions without worry or hesitation. Original Context - Is it Time, Yet, to stop being polite to Religion? My mother is writing a book. It's about the harm Christianity and ignorance in general has done to the face of humanity, both practical and philosophical. Good examples of this would be the burning of the Library of Alexandria or the Burning Times, the teaching of Creationism, I could go on. It's going to be told in a fictional story, but the history of it is going to be real. What I'm asking you is this: How has Christianity harmed you? I need examples of how fundamentalists have used and abused their beliefs to cause harm and pain. The reason She asking this of you is simple: She's encountered fundamentalists in her lifetime(she was raised by them and went to sunday school regularly.) and knows their capabilities of evil are very deep needless to say. Final Summary: What evil have they committed do you want exposed to the world for all to see? If you don't feel comfortable posting here you can just PM me. I assure you I will treat your story with the respect it deserves. I'm not making a scandal sheet, I'm telling a story that has sat in the dark for far too long. Be well, Merlin This post has been edited by Merlinfmct87 on Dec 22 2004, 12:54 AM -------------------- user posted image As long as the prerequisite for that shining paradise is ignorance, bigotry, and hate... I say the hell with it Down with the necromatic death cults. Amen. Mini ProfilePMEmail PosterICQMSN Top James Tiberius Kirk Posted: Dec 21 2004, 08:56 PM Report PostQuote Post questioner ** Group: Members Posts: 32 Member No.: 198 Joined: 17-October 04 No Uh, why does that link take me to reply to the "Now Playing" thread? -------------------- KHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Mini ProfilePMEmail Poster Top Merlinfmct87 Posted: Dec 22 2004, 12:57 AM Report PostDelete PostEdit PostQuote Post apostate ******* Group: Senior Members Posts: 747 Member No.: 280 Joined: 7-November 04 Wicca("Do no harm") and Objectivism Wendybanghead.gif Wrong URL was pasted. Now corrected. Thanks for the report, Merlin -------------------- user posted image As long as the prerequisite for that shining paradise is ignorance, bigotry, and hate... I say the hell with it Down with the necromatic death cults. Amen. Mini ProfilePMEmail PosterICQMSN Top Diogenes Posted: Dec 22 2004, 01:32 AM Report PostQuote Post skeptic ****** Group: Senior Members Posts: 378 Member No.: 247 Joined: 29-October 04 nada As a young(er) man, 20-ish I unfortunately got involved in a cultish type of fundie church. If you go to yahoo and type in 'Discipleship Shepherding movement', you'll see several articles about this particular movement, which is now nearly universally condemned by other fundie groups (Promise Keepers, etc). The impact was that many choices I made and many opportunities I had went by the wayside. Choices I did make were made for the wrong reasons and often unwisely. I'm talking about relationships, career, academic, and other opportunities which took a backseat or were eliminated because I was so dedicated to the cause. I was involved for two and a half years, and it so indoctrinated me, that I spent two decades searching and seeking for some sort of truth within the christian worldview framework. I found none. I still deal with regret and resentment, but I also am glad that I have, just this year, decided to leave all of it behind. But you can read all about that on my ex-timony from back in October '04. I'm glad I still have a future ahead of me and have made something of my life. This post has been edited by Diogenes on Dec 22 2004, 01:33 AM Mini ProfilePMEmail Poster Top atheist_ewtcoma Posted: Dec 22 2004, 02:11 PM Report PostQuote Post skeptic ****** Group: Senior Members Posts: 487 Member No.: 111 Joined: 5-October 04 thought Had a shity child hood because of a lack of fundamental education due to religious private school. My wife is ignorant and has no motivation to better herself, she has faith. My Mother inlaw whom can be a religious fanatatic at times has plans for my daughter to be brainwashed by their religion machine. I'm not sure how I'm going to counter this but know I have to do it somehow but don't want to cause any internal conflicts. Alabama had voted down a education lottery to fund K-12 programs and to offer scholarships. There are stupid dip shits every where I go that irritate the hell out of me. -------------------- "Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise". -- James Madison "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof." -- Carl Sagan Mini ProfilePMEmail PosterYahoo Top GreyGirl Posted: Dec 22 2004, 10:34 PM Report PostQuote Post thinker **** Group: Senior Members Posts: 102 Member No.: 407 Joined: 20-December 04 Pagan Atheist I was raised Mormon, and to this day I'm horribly afraid of water because of it. Mormons believe in baptism by immersion, and little Mormon kids get baptized when they're 8 years old. When I was 7, I nearly drowned in a friends backyard pool and had developed a fear of water as a result. So when it came time for me to get baptized, I didn't want to do it. I didn't know or trust the guy who was going to dunk me, I was afraid of the font (which looks basically like a small swimming pool), and I had serious emotional issues about it. Instead of talking to me about why I was refusing to go in the water, the guy who was supposed to baptize me just grabbed me and dragged me, kicking and screaming, into the water. The baptism doesn't count unless you're completely under water, and I was thrashing around, trying to get away, so of course my hands and feet weren't staying under. I got dunked four times before the guy told me he was going to hold me under until I quit fighting and I finally gave in. The church also teaches that 8 is the age of accountability, and after you get baptized you're held accountable for your "sins". I spent a good 6 months before my baptism praying every night for god to let me die in my sleep so I wouldn't have to be punished for my sins. I spent a lot of time trying to work up the nerve to kill myself before I turned 8 and became responsible. Because I was being regularly molested, and I thought it was my fault and god would hold me responsible for it once I turned 8. I seriously doubt I would have been a suicidal 7 year old without that church. And I wouldn't have believed that it was wrong to question a priesthood-holder, and therefore would have most likely told my mom I was being molested. Mini ProfilePMEmail Poster Top Merlinfmct87 Posted: Dec 23 2004, 12:10 AM Report PostDelete PostEdit PostQuote Post apostate ******* Group: Senior Members Posts: 747 Member No.: 280 Joined: 7-November 04 Wicca("Do no harm") and Objectivism First, I apologize for not getting a reply to all of you. You have bared your souls in a very public mannor, I want you to know that it is not being forgotten. I just wanted the next reply to come from the author(the person this is all going to). I can honestly say that both me and my mother are honored to have all of you share your stories with us. Without further ado, here is my mother's reply: QUOTE I am so very appreciative of the way "strangers" are opening up to me, I would like to say Thank You from the depths of my soul. This is a wonderful website, very healing, a place of truth amidst the madness and I would like to reward all who have come out of the darkness of fear and ignorance... and are willing to share to help me. Your stories and your pain will find honor in my pages this I swear to you. I was raised Catholic, the strict parents, the nuns with the rulers and the priests full of fire and brimstone. Religon was once something I dearly wanted in my life, in parochial school during religous studies I would ask questions, questions that were not allowed to be asked. I loved Egypt as a child, Nefertiti was a great heroine to me, but the nuns said she was damned to hell because she wasn't christian. I said that was stupid and got my wrist slapped. But I was a slow learner I guess, because the next day I would ask another question-like why didn't Abraham tell god No? Issac is my child not my possession-I cannot sacrifice that which is not mine... another trip to mother superior's office... Until it got so bad they wanted me expelled, because --are you ready for this?--I was a witch. I was seven years old and had some priest telling my parents I was in league with the devil... because I asked questions. My father abused me physically, my mother with guilt and shame. All because of the church. I ended up marrying a man in college, a jerk I would never have looked twice at if not for the low state I was in because of religon being in my life. But I am divorced now, and free from the terrors of the pulpit... and that is what I want this book to do, to give people trapped in fear and darkness a way out a light to lead them out of the tunnel... I just can't say thank you enough to those that have responded. Your courage and strength is a true inspiration to me and I will speak your truths with honor... Catia --Catia Grace Villatorio NOTE from the future author: Mum brought it to my attention that the quote I opened the thread to is calling for the reader to be the one that stands up to religion... that is not our intention. It was an explanation of why she started this book. So, PLEASE don't feel compelled to commit sepukku because of this thread. That's not the intention at all. The intention is to explain why we are standing up to the blight. QUOTE This book is my crusade, my cross to bear. I need the church(all of them) to finally be forced to answer for their crimes and their lies. My book will be the hope I leave behind when I die, the torch I hope will be picked up by others who refuse to live in ignorance, who will not be ruled by fools. --Catia This post has been edited by Merlinfmct87 on Dec 23 2004, 12:24 AM -------------------- user posted image As long as the prerequisite for that shining paradise is ignorance, bigotry, and hate... I say the hell with it Down with the necromatic death cults. Amen. Mini ProfilePMEmail PosterICQMSN Top et64142 Posted: Dec 23 2004, 02:13 AM Report PostQuote Post doubter *** Group: Members Posts: 36 Member No.: 261 Joined: 1-November 04 Unsaved Catia and Merlin, I believe that one of the worst sins created by christianity is the widespread endorsement of the "Spare the rod, spoil the child" discipline philosophy, which has been condoned and advocated by church leaders and religious authors for centuries. I grew up in a strict Baptist household where it seemed like I was almost constantly in fear. With 5 brothers and sisters, there were not too many days that went by where at least one of us wasn't getting whipped with a belt. Besides outright disobedience, the worst thing we could do was express any kind of disagreement with or disapproval of my dad. I tried to become perfectly agreeable and obedient, but I never could be sure exactly what might get me into trouble. For example, one time, 2 sisters and a brother were whipped because the dog ran away on their watch. I surely didn't blame that dog for running away (I wished I were the dog), but there was nothing my young siblings could have done to prevent it. The belt coming off was a common occurrence in my household, and it was traumatic. My dad would hit us 15 - 20 times, and he would hit us extremely hard. In fact, there was often bruises, bleeding, skin coming off, etc. I got it the least of my siblings, because I became as perfect as a person could be. It was just as traumatic, however, listening to my brothers and sisters being beaten. In fact, just recalling this to write it here is making me cry. I would run outside and down the alley to try to get far enough away that I couldn't hear them scream. If it was night and I had to stay inside, I would cover my head with my pillow and stuff my fingers as far into my ears as possible. I couldn't stand hearing the hitting and the screaming. In my imagination, I grew taller than the monster (my dad), grabbed his belt, and strangled him with it. The last time it happened to me, I was 11 or 12. At the time, my dad was taking us to a church that was just an informal gathering of a few families. The "service" would last from 10:00 a.m. until anywhere from 2:00 to 4:00 p.m. There was no children's church or activities, so we would have to sit there for hours listening to the adults preach and talk. One Sunday, my brother, sister and I started goofing around out of boredom. All 3 of us got it when we got home. I remember that afterward, my dad hugged me and told me that he loved me (he had recently learned in church that he should do this). After casting him an unhappy glare and not responding to his so called "love," he angrily rebuked me for this attitude and said he should whip me again. My family's "Spare the rod, spoil the child" mentality has definitely affected my life as an adult. It is extremely difficult for me to express emotions, as I was not allowed to show them as a child. Also, I still have pain in my heart when I remember my siblings being beaten. I wanted to rescue them, but I couldn't. I definitely still feel anger towards my dad. How could I not? I see fathers who are so sweet and tender with their children, and I think, "I would love to have had a father like that." I married a very gentle man. I know that I could never be with anyone who wasn't because I would be too afraid, even if he would never hurt me. I think there are probably many other people who grew up in fundamentalist homes and also experienced this kind of discipline. A good resource on the history of the church's support and advocation of this kind of cruelty is "Spare the Child: The Religious Roots of Punishment and the Psychological Impact of Physical Abuse," by Philip Greven. Catia, I agree with you that christianity has resulted in some terrible ramifications in our society. I look forward to reading your book! Ellen -------------------- "The world in which we live can be understood as a result of muddle and accident; but if it is the outcome of a deliberate purpose, the purpose must have been that of a fiend." --Bertrand Russell Mini ProfilePMEmail Poster Top ericf Posted: Dec 23 2004, 03:13 AM Report PostQuote Post skeptic ****** Group: Senior Members Posts: 397 Member No.: 85 Joined: 4-October 04 Credo Quia Absurdum Okay, I don't really have stories that are as dramatic as what you have already heard but I figured I would include some of my experiences. Let's see... non-religious books were not allowed by my mother for a large portion of my childhood. This is a deep wound for a readaholic like myself. I managed to get around much of the ban by claiming they were school related, reading during classes at school (lucky for me I was smart enough to do this and still pass), or hiding them to be read late into the night or in the bathroom. I remember my mom going into my closet one day and finding my collection of books... hundreds of them... and filling a couple garbage bins and a hamper full of them. They all went out to the trash. It was months worth of lawn-mowing money spent $0.25 at a time in the used bookstore at the town library down the drain. Toys, TV, music... all selectively banned or screened during my childhood. My mother still gets upset if I watch the Simpsons (I am 24) and she is mortified to know I have south park episodes on my computer. I remember hearing about how D&D was demonic (Dungeons & Dragons) and the Smurfs were evil. But playing war with my B-B gun or lighting fire to my massive collection of GI-Joes was fine. There was no acceptable debate about religion in my house. When my parents seperated the only other person who was questioning was removed from me. We both (dad and I) deconverted at roughly the same time but without contact and seperated by 1100 miles. Of course, my deconversion was something I could never show at all. I spent 6 years living udner the roof of that house playing the perfect Christian but not believing a word of it. I rose to positions of leadership in the church because that is what a good Christian would do... I went on mission trips... I taught young men about how real the bible was and how it was inerrant... and I never believed a word of it. I was on stage 24 hours a day without the benefit of ever dropping character except in my own head. Years later... my mom would claim it was my secular college that caused me to not believe as she finds it impossible that I was not a Christian during those times. My secular college was my first real sign that I wasn't the perfect Christian. I openly fought the idea of being sent to a Christian college and purposely missed deadlines for applications or claimed to mail them but have placed them in the bin instead. But I still could not be open with my mom, family, friends or anyone from home even when I was at college. And my mother was constantly fighting with me to try and get new roommates each semester but I was thrilled with the ones I had... atheist... pagan... Muslim... I thought they were great. Eventually I managed to get a single room. At 21 years old, eight years after deconverting, I decided to tell my mother about my non-belief. It was to be my birthday present to myself. So, I told her... or rather I tried to tell her. The situation was bad to begin with because I was in a different state staying with my mom's identical twin sister who has an identical religious obsession. So, I was away from home and in a house full of three fundie adults, my two sisters, and two of my cousins... and a smattering of other Christians to harrass me. And I had nowhere to go... no way to get away from it. I got as far as, "Mom, I don't believe in God exactly like you do..." before the hysteria started. I tried to wait it out... a week passed with constant attempts to make me reconsider... my sisters guiltily accusing me of being an atheist (something I never even said) and so on. It was very wearing and I had nowhere to go... no escape. But I didn't sway. I waited until they calmed down and were willing to talk about it more. It never happened. At the start of the second week I was dragged along to a Christian bible camp so they could get help from people who knew the bible better than I did. Thus started week two of constant indoctrination attempts... and now I was in upstate NY with even less places to go. I managed to slip off to the woods just to be alone fairly frequently... I might have seriously hurt someone if that wasn't an option. At the end of this... now over two weeks of hell... some guy was assigned to interrogate me and he kept throwing around bible verses and calling me a sinner... it was horrible... I was worn out... barely sleeping or eating... and now I had this high pressure asshole demanding things of me that I couldn't offer. I burst into tears... yes... me... a 21 year old guy had a virtual emotional breakdown. But that is as far as it went... he never got his conversion... I couldn't give it to him... I wasn't able to believe and I would be damned if I would have made any choice in those conditions. My sister (who went to the bible college that ran the camp) would later state that the guy believed he saved me that day. KatieHmm.gif Riding back to my aunt's house hours later... I saw that this wasn't going to be the end... and I asked myself if it was worth it... I decided it was easier on everyone if I went back to playing the game. So I did. I told them, that evening, that I was just kidding about the whole not-being-a-Christian thing. So great was their desire for it to be true, they never asked me to pray or anything. If I was willing to play along they were willing to believe. It was almost three years after that when my mother finally figured it out when she ran into my new massive collection of religious books. On the old boards there was a thread about it -- but it is lost to the digital bin right now... and it is pointless. Basically, I was more in my element and wasn't willing to go through the same hell again. I was determined to live in my car until I found a friend who would take me in if my mother had an issue with it. I am still in college and am living at home until I graduate to save money. I was more in control though -- even though I wouldn't have wanted to come out -- and my mom quickly realized that this wasn't something heavy-handed pressure was going to solve and anything like that was just going to drive me off for good. Anyway... that's my experience... if I think of anything else, I'll be sure to post some more. This post has been edited by ericf on Dec 23 2004, 03:52 AM -------------------- The Hell Law says that Hell is reserved exclusively for them that believe in it. Further, the lowest Rung in Hell is reserved for them that believe in it on the supposition that they'll go there if they don't. HBT; The Gospel According to Fred, 3:1 Mini ProfilePMEmail PosterICQAOLYahoo Top Godless Wonder Posted: Dec 23 2004, 06:09 AM Report PostQuote Post questioner ** Group: Members Posts: 31 Member No.: 59 Joined: 4-October 04 atheist Well, the worst I've experienced is extremely common, I had a girlfriend dump me due to my lack of belief, and subsequently cut off all communication for reasons I'm still not sure about. Luckily we hadn't been going out for all that long, however, it still hurt like hell because we really were a very good match for each other apart from the religion thing. But there's another harm in there, in that 95% (a low estimate) of the women I'm likely to meet have had their minds poisoned against me since childhood. BTW, if you're looking for lots of responses, you might want to also ask on http://iidb.org, which is the largest infidel board on the net so far as I know (16000+ members, 200 or so active at any given time) and probably more than 50% of the members are ex-theists, most of those ex-Christians. This post has been edited by Godless Wonder on Dec 23 2004, 06:09 AM Mini ProfilePMEmail Poster Top et64142 Posted: Dec 23 2004, 10:48 PM Report PostQuote Post doubter *** Group: Members Posts: 36 Member No.: 261 Joined: 1-November 04 Unsaved QUOTE (ericf @ Dec 23 2004, 03:13 AM) Okay, I don't really have stories that are as dramatic as what you have already heard but I figured I would include some of my experiences. Let's see... non-religious books were not allowed by my mother for a large portion of my childhood. This is a deep wound for a readaholic like myself. I managed to get around much of the ban by claiming they were school related, reading during classes at school (lucky for me I was smart enough to do this and still pass), or hiding them to be read late into the night or in the bathroom. I remember my mom going into my closet one day and finding my collection of books... hundreds of them... and filling a couple garbage bins and a hamper full of them. They all went out to the trash. It was months worth of lawn-mowing money spent $0.25 at a time in the used bookstore at the town library down the drain. Eric, I think what happened to you is every bit as dramatic. That was very controlling of your mother to do that and it must have really hurt you for her to destroy the thing that brought you so much joy. My dad would go through these weird phases of throwing things out, depending on whatever our church/pastor was telling him at the time. I was born in the 70's and was absolutely crazy about the Star Wars movies. Between my brother and me, I think we had every single character (thanks to Grandma and Grandpa and xmas). I was in love with Luke Skywalker, and he and Princess Leia were my most favorite toys I owned. One day, my dad decided that the Star Wars movies were evil because, I guess, their theme of good vs. evil did not accurately represent the good vs. evil in this world. Anyway, he took all of our beloved Star Wars paraphernalia (toys, sheets, lunch boxes, etc.) and burned them in the back yard. He like to actually burn stuff rather than throw it away in order to add a little symbology to his lesson. WendyDoh.gif -------------------- "The world in which we live can be understood as a result of muddle and accident; but if it is the outcome of a deliberate purpose, the purpose must have been that of a fiend." --Bertrand Russell Mini ProfilePMEmail Poster Top et64142 Posted: Dec 23 2004, 10:53 PM Report PostQuote Post doubter *** Group: Members Posts: 36 Member No.: 261 Joined: 1-November 04 Unsaved QUOTE (Godless Wonder @ Dec 23 2004, 06:09 AM) But there's another harm in there, in that 95% (a low estimate) of the women I'm likely to meet have had their minds poisoned against me since childhood. Hi GW. Can you expand on this? I'm not sure I know what you meant. Thanks! Ellen -------------------- "The world in which we live can be understood as a result of muddle and accident; but if it is the outcome of a deliberate purpose, the purpose must have been that of a fiend." --Bertrand Russell Mini ProfilePMEmail Poster Top ericf Posted: Dec 24 2004, 03:40 AM Report PostQuote Post skeptic ****** Group: Senior Members Posts: 397 Member No.: 85 Joined: 4-October 04 Credo Quia Absurdum QUOTE (et64142 @ Dec 23 2004, 05:48 PM) He like to actually burn stuff rather than throw it away in order to add a little symbology to his lesson. Ah, the burning times. Yes... many things of mine went into the fire. It was one of my mom's preferred ways of getting rid of evil. I think the reason the books weren't burnt is that there was so many it would have been too much of a chore in our town which does not allow real fires. I had playing cards (esp. magic the gathering), toys, books, CDs, and tons of other stuff burnt at one time or another. When my mom wasn't doing it, the church would hold little bon-fires of evil. One of my most dramatic times was at one of those. During my deconversion, I kept a daily journal... thoughts, scripture, ideas, feelings, anything at all... everything was recorded in these books. There were several as my real deconversion took probably about a year. I was a copious note taker and these contained tons of material. I kept this journal hidden better than I would have hidden porn -- had I had any. A couple of years after my deconversion the church was having a fire where we were to throw in our reminders of past sin (meaning records, books, etc). I ran across these books and skimmed through them. I saw how much I had looked and realized that this was my past... it was a place I was never going back to. That night, at church, while everyone was burning their sinful lives... I watched the last physical reminder of my time as a Christian burn. It was almost as emotional as the time I finally came to the conclusion that I wasn't a Christian after all that searching. So... the fires weren't all bad. That was my bridge burning... the day I looked forward and made the decision to never look back. Some people believe in blaspheming the holy ghost... but this worked much better for me. -------------------- The Hell Law says that Hell is reserved exclusively for them that believe in it. Further, the lowest Rung in Hell is reserved for them that believe in it on the supposition that they'll go there if they don't. HBT; The Gospel According to Fred, 3:1 Mini ProfilePMEmail PosterICQAOLYahoo Top Merlinfmct87 Posted: Dec 24 2004, 08:18 PM Report PostDelete PostEdit PostQuote Post apostate ******* Group: Senior Members Posts: 747 Member No.: 280 Joined: 7-November 04 Wicca("Do no harm") and Objectivism QUOTE (Catia Grace Villatorio) To all who have responded to this thread, thank you. You have inspired me, humbled me, and encouraged me more than you can know. The following lyrics are from Evanescance. My son tells me that they are a Christian band (Note from Merlin: They are a band who is christian, not a "Christian Rock Band." They used to put their singles on Christian rock stations, but decided that advertising their faith was not what they wanted to do, so they removed the singles from the stations and kept them in mainstream-only rock stations. One of their songs does deal with in a between-the-lines mannor with issues of faith, but I'd hardly call it a praise the lord cut.) QUOTE (Catia Grace Villatorio) But when I heard this song, I took it as "TRUTH" speaking. The voices of those murdered by the church, the wisdom of the books that were burned, they are wanting to speak again. This is for all of us who have forsaken our true selves, hopes, dreams, and desires in order to get along in a christian world. Truth Lives. Veritas Vivus. QUOTE (Evanescance - Bring Me To Life) How can you see into my eyes Like open doors Leading you down into my core Where I’ve become so numb Without a soul My spirit’s sleeping somewhere cold Until you find it there and lead it back home [chorus] (wake me up) Wake me up inside (I can’t wake up.) Wake me up inside (Save me!) Call my name and save me from the dark (Wake me up) Bid my blood to run (I can’t wake up) Before I come undone (Save me) Save me from the nothing I’ve become Now that I know what I’m without You can’t just leave me Breathe into me and make me real Bring me to life [chorus] Bring me to life (I’ve been living a lie There’s nothing inside) Bring me to life Frozen inside without your touch, Without your love, darling Only you are the life among the dead (All of this sight I can’t believe I couldn’t see Kept in the dark But you were never far from me) I’ve been sleeping a 1000 years it seems I’ve got to open my eyes to everything (Without a thought Without a voice Without a soul) Don’t let me die here (There must be something more) Bring me to life [chorus] Bring me to life (I’ve been living a lie There’s nothing inside) Bring me to life Another song from the same band(Ironically it's the one on the CD that immediately follows this one) is also very apporpriate here. I always see a Freethinker/Fundamentalist(or truth vs the church if you want to take it to a larger scale) in this song: QUOTE (Evanescance - Everybody's Fool) Perfect by nature Icons of self indulgence Just what we all need More lies about a world that Never was and never will be Have you no shame? Don't you see me? You know you've got everybody fooled Look here she comes now Bow down and stare in wonder Oh how we love you No flaws when you're pretending But now I know she Never was and never will be You don't know how you've betrayed me And somehow you've got everybody fooled Without the mask, where will you hide? Can't find yourself lost in your lie I know the truth now I know who you are And I don't love you anymore It Never was and never will be You don't know how you've betrayed me And somehow you've got everybody fooled It never was and never will be You're not real and you can't save me Somehow now you're everybody's fool And one last one... this was just too on-point to pass up: QUOTE (Trent Reznor of Nine Inch Nails - Heresy) He sewed his eyes shut because he is afraid to see He tries to tell me what I put inside of me He’s got the answers to ease my curiosity He dreamed up a God and called it christianity Your God is dead and no one cares If there is a hell I will see you there He flexed his muscles to keep his flock of sheep in line He made a virus that would kill off all the swine His perfect kingdom of killing, suffering and pain Demands devotion atrocities done in his name Your God is dead and no one cares Drowning in his own hypocrisy And if there is a hell I will see you there Burning with your God in humility Will you die for this? (Note from Merlin: I myself haven't heard the last line on this song, but I'm including it for completeness.) QUOTE (Catia Grace Villatorio) The reason I am putting this is that music will also play a very important part in my book. I think it is a powerful magical force and I would like to know what music has helped others get through life. Don't assume it has to be rock or precicely on point; I have everything from Mozart and Vaughan Williams to David Bowie and AC/DC, Sarah Brightman to Nine Inch Nails. Thank you ALL, VERY MUCH. The world is a better place because of you. Catia Grace. -------------------- user posted image As long as the prerequisite for that shining paradise is ignorance, bigotry, and hate... I say the hell with it Down with the necromatic death cults. Amen. Mini ProfilePMEmail PosterICQMSN Top LadyFeline Posted: Dec 25 2004, 04:49 PM Report PostQuote Post thinker **** Group: Senior Members Posts: 138 Member No.: 129 Joined: 6-October 04 God has no place in my gas tank. Well, while I can't say my deconversion was as traumatic as most... and I'm not sure how much this may help, in regards to the book being written... But it was certainly painful for me. After all, years of hearing that you're inferior, "dirty", "ignorant"... second-class citizens... just because you don't have a penis... can't possibly be good for you emotionally. I was never punished for asking questions, but it was very, very strongly discouraged. Like, when I asked how Noah could fit ALL the world's animals into ONE boat... All the Sunday school teacher said was "Well, God helped him.", then left it at that. Probably the most painful point was when I was in sixth and seventh grade. I had a dear, very dear friend - so close she was almost like a sister. She was also a foster child, whose foster mother was an abusive alcoholic (and so-called "Christian") who let her biological children beat the girl (her son even choked her with a telephone cord, and her daughter would steal things from her). They did everything they could to make her life miserable - including forbidding her from associating with anyone outside of school - and even then, this woman had her biological daughter spying on my best friend, to make sure she wasn't "breaking the rules". Things got bad. Really bad. So bad that her pain was mine, too. She started cutting herself, and talking about suicide... In an effort to help her, I invited her to church, and we prayed and prayed and prayed that someone - ANYone would help her. God must have been busy that day, because no one did. And my best friend committed suicide one year later. Because no one helped her. And no one helped me afterwards. The school counselor told me "Well, maybe this was for the best." My parents refused to see that I was depressed ("Kids don't get depressed! Only adults get depressed!") and started treating me like garbage, which only made things worse. And the pastor, whom I had begged for help, just said "Well, this is God's plan." God's plan? It was GOD'S PLAN for a fifteen-year-old girl to commit suicide because HE was too damn lazy to help? It was GOD'S PLAN for me, her best friend, to suffer for years because HE couldn't be bothered? Some plan. Things just went downhill from there, faith-wise. I started looking into alternative paths - anything had to be better than this self-destructive black hole of a religion. I started studying magic - though I had to keep all my books hidden, because otherwise Fundie-Father would have thrown them all out, then launched one of his infamous tirades, complete with screaming, shaking, and hitting... Funny, how he only did (does) this to me, his daughter... While his two sons get nothing but love and praise, no matter how stupid they are. If I exhibit ANY knowledge, dad just sneers and gives me one of his "Yeah, right", "Who have YOU been talking to?", or "What do YOU know?". However, if one of they boys says something stupid (ie, anything he agrees with), then he just laughs and congratulates them. Actually, don't get me started on my dad. it would take too long to work through THAT rant... Anyway... The full-fledged breaking point with Christianity came about three years ago, at a church Christmas program I was forced to attend (and forced to put on a happy face for, despite the fact that I was ROYALLY PISSED OFF and would have liked nothing more than to just sit and be quiet the whole time...) The new pastor has just started his Christmas sermon, and, instead of the gentle, "Peace on Earth, and may God bless you all" stuff that the OLD pastor put out every year... we got Souther-Baptist-ized (it's a Methodist church). "GOD chose MARY to bear His one and ONLY son, because SHE was a virgin, and the ONLY - ONLY woman on Earth GOOD and PURE enough to bring His child into the world. ALL other women, descendants of Eve, were sinful, rebellious and ignorant, and not worthy of the honor of bearing God's son, but MARY was perfect." I wanted to stand up and scream at him. I just wanted to scream, period. How could someone SAY things like that, I asked myself? I left the church that night, DEEPLY offended. And I never went back. I finally decided that I couldn't stand the people there, the message being spread (in one Bible School, they had FIVE-YEAR-OLDS singing about how they needed to "turn people to God" so their souls wouldn't burn in Hell. What kind of message is that for a child?) I never made a better decision before in my life. Sorry, I'm ranting... Make of it what you will... QUOTE (Catia) The reason I am putting this is that music will also play a very important part in my book. I think it is a powerful magical force and I would like to know what music has helped others get through life. Don't assume it has to be rock or precicely on point; I have everything from Mozart and Vaughan Williams to David Bowie and AC/DC, Sarah Brightman to Nine Inch Nails. I agree - music is very powerful, very capable of eliciting strong emotional responses where there were none before... And it's a very strong healing tool - I should know, it's helped me quite a bit. Pink's "18-Wheeler" springs to mind right away, as well as "Just Like A Pill". Bryan Adams, too, with "Sound the Bugle", "Get Off of My Back", and "Here I Am". Also Savage Garden, U2, Deep Forest, Darude, Lebo M (the Lion King on Broadway has very, very inspiring music, as does Rhythm of the Pridelands). There are many more - but I have too many artists to list off FrogsToadBigGrin.gif -------------------- DEVIANT! You'll just have to look... ...and find out for yourself... 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Merlinfmct87 Posted April 18, 2005 Author Share Posted April 18, 2005 natasha Posted: Dec 27 2004, 12:31 AM Report PostQuote Post questioner ** Group: Members Posts: 29 Member No.: 390 Joined: 13-December 04 agnostic Ellen I had a father much like yours. On top of having to grow up with a father like that, at my church there were mostly single moms. So I had to hear about how lucky I was to HAVE a father. Meanwhile all the other kids and their moms got buttered up with sympathy while I was told how lucky I was then gone home to be beaten almost to death. To this day, I find myself loathing single parent families, resenting all the sympathy they get from our society as if no one else ever suffers but them. My father was constantly praised for being there, but I hated that he was there. I wanted him gone, I wanted to stop being abused, and I wanted to be "special" like all those other fuckers who didn't have to go through what I went through This post has been edited by natasha on Dec 27 2004, 12:32 AM Mini ProfilePMEmail Poster Top et64142 Posted: Dec 27 2004, 12:59 AM Report PostQuote Post doubter *** Group: Members Posts: 36 Member No.: 261 Joined: 1-November 04 Unsaved Hi Natasha. That really sucks. I feel for you. What denomination were you, Natasha? Ellen ----------------------------------------------------- Post edited at the request of the author ~ Reach This post has been edited by Reach on Dec 29 2004, 02:53 PM -------------------- "The world in which we live can be understood as a result of muddle and accident; but if it is the outcome of a deliberate purpose, the purpose must have been that of a fiend." --Bertrand Russell Mini ProfilePMEmail Poster Top Reach Posted: Dec 28 2004, 07:16 PM Report PostQuote Post apostate Group Icon Group: Paying Moderator Posts: 996 Member No.: 51 Joined: 4-October 04 No gods, No religion She was first Baptist, and later, Pentecostal. ----------------------------------------------------------- Do to several requests, this topic has been reopened. The posts that followed the previous post have been moved to Almost Anything Goes, the topic titled Backlashes, and that thread remains closed. If anyone has a problem with my actions please send me a PM or post a new thread, out of respect to those who wish to continue on this topic without all the unnecessary vitriol. Reach -------------------- ...another barefoot girl uncomfortable with man-made shoes. ...an unabashed atheist, to boot. ;-) Mini ProfilePMEmail PosterAOLYahoo Top et64142 Posted: Dec 28 2004, 07:27 PM Report PostQuote Post doubter *** Group: Members Posts: 36 Member No.: 261 Joined: 1-November 04 Unsaved Thank you, Reach. -------------------- "The world in which we live can be understood as a result of muddle and accident; but if it is the outcome of a deliberate purpose, the purpose must have been that of a fiend." --Bertrand Russell Mini ProfilePMEmail Poster Top erik the awful Posted: Dec 29 2004, 03:18 AM Report PostQuote Post strong minded ***** Group: Senior Members Posts: 217 Member No.: 83 Joined: 4-October 04 Militant Agnostic. I was raised Seventh Day Adventist. Anything bad in the news always ment that the world was about to end. Additionally, you have to apply doublethink to all things christian. I nearly escaped about 12 years ago, but not quite. The Church has consistently prevented clear thought. Church people consistently resent real questions. Church people consistently give pat answers that are usually crap. The Church induced some kind of brain damage. I hope I get my mind back someday. -------------------- dou·ble·think - Thought marked by the acceptance of gross contradictions and falsehoods, especially when used as a technique of self-indoctrination: “Doublethink... is a vast system of mental cheating” (George Orwell). Mini ProfilePMEmail Poster Top nonni Posted: Dec 31 2004, 02:17 AM Report PostQuote Post strong minded ***** Group: Senior Members Posts: 239 Member No.: 10 Joined: 4-October 04 none "How has Christianity harmed you?" is a very big, deep question. I don't think I can accurately answer it without writing a book of my own. Let me start out by telling you that it ruins your perception of yourself and your self esteem. Being "born again" is considered being "okay", and being "unsaved" is considered to be "not okay". Remember psychology class, the old I'm okay, you're okay, you think I'm okay, and all that? You get saved the first time thinking that that's the end of it. But it's not. Soon afterwards, you are bombarded with sermons, services and pastoral "challenges" that ask you if you "know that you know that you know" if you are "really" saved, or if you are just "walking the walk". These questions are asked with a very crafty undertone, an undertone that tricks you into answering negatively no matter how you felt about your faith when you walked in that morning. All around you, people are giving testimonies about how before they got saved, they were just walking the walk and attending church, but didn't *REALLY* have a *REAL* relationship with Christ, and now they do. All kinds of actions that you make, ways that you dress, things you say, questions you ask, mannerisms that you show and desires that you have are pointed out as "evidence that you aren't really save" or just "don't have a strong enough faith." Constantly in a very subtle manner, the rug is somewhat ripped out from under you, you are constantly subconsiously told that you aren't saved, or saved enough (okay) and it has brutal effects on your self esteem in the long run. This is only one example. I have many more. I hope it made sense, I am very tired tonight. I want to ask you about writing a book. I want to write a book of my own. It has nothing to do with Christianity. I want to write about my life experience working to help children. It won't be completely true to the absolute T, but it will be based on my experiences. There are a lot of good insights I have gotten on internet forums from anonymous people. For instance, I have come accross forums which actually debate adoption, when I never thought before that anyone could actually be against adoption. Now, if I write a book about two people sitting by a lake debating adoption and use totally different words and phrases, but just borrow the simple idea of debating adoption, those two people can track me down and sue me. In the same light, if you write a book about two people sitting in a coffee shop debating creationism vs. evolution, anyone who has ever had an online debate about that topic can track you down and sue you, even if you never mentioned the internet or their names or even used the same aspects of debate or the same words. People on the internet can track you down by some IP number or ISP number, and actually know where you live and all that, so I would be very careful if I were you! Plagiarism is very tricky, and to me, there doesn't seem to be any way not to committ it since everything that you can write about has been discussed by somewhere, sometime, someplace. We're probably even committing it right now, who knows. Anyway, food for thought. I get really freaked out over the idea of mad fucked up internet people tracking me down and suing me. To the point where, if I do write this book, it will be for therapudic purpouses only and not to be published. Good luck, and don't get sued. -------------------- If the grass is greener on the other side, it's probably because your neighbor is taking better care of his lawn. Mini ProfilePMEmail PosterUsers Website Top Godless Wonder Posted: Jan 1 2005, 04:29 AM Report PostQuote Post questioner ** Group: Members Posts: 31 Member No.: 59 Joined: 4-October 04 atheist QUOTE (et64142 @ Dec 23 2004, 02:53 PM) QUOTE (Godless Wonder @ Dec 23 2004, 06:09 AM) But there's another harm in there, in that 95% (a low estimate) of the women I'm likely to meet have had their minds poisoned against me since childhood. Hi GW. Can you expand on this? I'm not sure I know what you meant. Thanks! Ellen I mean that more than 95% of women around where I live are Christians, and have been since childhood, and they are not going to consider an atheist to be someone that they would ever want to marry -- or, as I put it, their minds are poisoned against me, and as someone else wrote above, Christians have this "saved == ok, unsaved == not ok" mentalitiy. And there's that whole "unequally yoked" verse... ugh. And now, because of this... it's fair to say that my mind might as well be poisoned against them, in that now I generally assume that theirs is poisoned against me, when before, I didn't assume this, and when I know that there is a very slight chance that this is not the case, as obviously there exist a few openly atheist/Christian marriages that manage to work. Also, since my experience with that woman, I learned a lot about Christianity in my efforts to understand where she was coming from (in the hopes that I'd convert (yeah, right) or that she'd deconvert). I learned more about Christianity than most Christians know by far, and more by far than all Christians that I've talked to about Christianity in real life seem to know. And the more I learned about it, the dumber it seemed to become, until I learned so much about it that I still have a hard time not assuming that all Christians are morons, and have to remind myself that this is not the case. I know they aren't really stupid,and that they can be as smart as anyone, (my ex-girlfriend wasn't stupid by any stretch) but I also know what they believe, or what they think they believe, and what the Bible says, and what they think it says, and oh, for fuck's sake, it's so stupid I want to cry for them, because I can't figure out what's wrong with their minds, and can't figure out how to fix them. (Yeah, yeah, who am I to say their minds are broken... I'm someone who's watched their minds break down in front of me and make them behave like morons, that's who I am.) So, to try to boil all that down a bit, Christianity divides humanity into "us" and "them" and requires it's adherents to reject reason in favor of faith, to even actively shut out any information which might challenge their faith -- in other words, to become "fools for Christ" as Paul puts it, or "morons" as I put it, and even though many Christians try to be tolerant of the (lack of) beliefs of others, there are some lines which they won't cross; they are required by their religion to be somewhat intolerant. This post has been edited by Godless Wonder on Jan 1 2005, 04:30 AM Mini ProfilePMEmail Poster Top et64142 Posted: Jan 2 2005, 10:39 PM Report PostQuote Post doubter *** Group: Members Posts: 36 Member No.: 261 Joined: 1-November 04 Unsaved I agree with you, Godless. I think you can say the same thing about politics, where the fanatics are just as intolerant. Just as I couldn't imagine being married to a religious fundie, neither could I fathom being married to a far-right winger, or even a right winger, for that matter . . . maybe I could handle someone who's on the right but leaning center. . . maybe. Lucky for me, my husband is neither a republican nor a xtian. You will find someone who wasn't poisoned against you!! Maybe you'll fall in love with a xtian, you never know. As long as she's open to other viewpoints, isn't a fundie, and doesn't try to convert you. That trying to convert people pisses me off. It's so arrogant! My husband's first marriage didn't work out, in part because his xtian wife and her mother were always trying to convert him. He went to church with her quite often, even though he didn't believe. Just like you, he was far more attentive and learned more about xtianity than did his wife and mother-in-law. On Sunday evenings, he would ask them specific questions about statements the pastor made, and neither of them would remember what the sermon was even about or what the pastor said. One Sunday he decided not to go to church with them, and his mother-in-law told her daughter (loudly, so that he could hear) that he must not love her if he wouldn't go to church with her. Yep, lots of xtians know absolutely nothing about tolerance. Good luck to you, Godless. Hope you find your godless girl! GONZ9729CustomImage1539775.gif Ellen -------------------- "The world in which we live can be understood as a result of muddle and accident; but if it is the outcome of a deliberate purpose, the purpose must have been that of a fiend." --Bertrand Russell Mini ProfilePMEmail Poster Top notblindedbytheblight Posted: Jan 6 2005, 09:16 PM Report PostQuote Post free thinker Group Icon Group: Paying Member Posts: 1812 Member No.: 66 Joined: 4-October 04 Nullifidian Merlin, I am going to honest with you and tell you that the harm I see being done (IMO) is not so much an intentional wrong but a wrong that comes about by the very thing they believe to be good. I used to be prejudice towards other races because I thought that was the right thing to believe, although horribly wrong. It's a frame of mind, a warped one yes, but still goes unnoticed by the believer or defended as being the right thing. I know we discussed this a little in PMs, but when I look at my sister and see there is no way she could ever purposefully harm me, she inadvertently does by what she allows herself to believe. -------------------- "...were values and ethical behavior the product of a freely choosing self ..., then indeed we’d be in trouble since we would have no way to train or control such a self. Fortunately it appears that such is not the case." Mini ProfilePMEmail Poster Top Fweethawt Posted: Jan 7 2005, 06:13 AM Report PostQuote Post free thinker ********* Group: Senior Members Posts: 1604 Member No.: 40 Joined: 4-October 04 I'm a Christian, GOD DAMMIT! QUOTE (notblindedbytheblight @ Jan 6 2005, 04:16 PM) I am going to honest with you and tell you that the harm I see being done (IMO) is not so much an intentional wrong but a wrong that comes about by the very thing they believe to be good. It's a frame of mind, a warped one yes, but still goes unnoticed by the believer or defended as being the right thing. I completely agree with these statements. Sometimes I can be so overwhelmed with thoughts on how many things that religion is a detriment to, that it hurts. LeslieHappyCry.gif -------------------- user posted image. Mini ProfilePMEmail PosterAOL Top formerfundie Posted: Jan 8 2005, 05:54 AM Report PostQuote Post doubter Group Icon Group: Paying Member Posts: 94 Member No.: 30 Joined: 4-October 04 no thanks--trying to quit Okay, I am going to TRY this and hope that perhaps it will eventually be helpful to someone else who may be has or has had some kind of similar issue. It's a bit personal--but then again-- How has christianity harmed me? Well, how about being told since I can ever even remember about being going to hell for anything and everything you did or are ever gonna do wrong? Yes, I realize that Jesus was supposed to have died for my mistakes and all, but, the problem is, where I ended up in the Pentecostal/Apostolic/WOF(Word of Faith) doctrine is that you were going to hell no matter what--I mean think about it--if you ever lied and didn't repent, you were going to hell, if you had a bad thought about someone else--hell, if you used foul language--hell, if you weren't submissive to your husband, didn't pay your tithe or taxes, had a negative opinion about the church or the President, had a drink, listened to secular music, watched secular tv shows, read anything other than christian books--and get this- ha-went to a secular college(my 'downfall from christendom and my deliverance from it!), etc--hell, hell, hell. I also thought for an extremely long time I was demonically possessed because I masturbated--and of course I found it difficult to NOT do this and so I went through all the guilt and shame associated with THAT and I also thought I was abnormal because I did do this(I thought there was something wrong with me for years and that it wasn't normal because no one ever told me it WAS normal, sheesh!), and of course KNEW I was going to hell because I did it and because I couldn't seem to stop and because I was demon possessed. Now many of you will likely laugh, but you have to realize that this was something I went to Pastors for to find the answers to and "deliverance" from. Then comes the utter hopelessness of realizing there's no "deliverance" from it. The mental anguish of never hitting a bullseye no matter what created quite an inferiority complex--I was never good enough--for anything. The constant trepidation of dying prematurely and going to hell has got to in and of itself create a ton of stress on someone--and stress takes its toll mentally, emotionally, and physically. I was always a top "performer" in any church I ever went to--and as someone else has previously stated, it prevented me from trying to achieve in other arenas such as education and career. I really was extremely mentally "boxed in." I lived in a fantasy world of angels and demons (creatures of mythology actually) and never realized how close an association they had to elves and trolls and fairies and stuff of fairytales. My brain didn't function outside the realm of religious association. Everything I did was God/church oriented, as was every purpose I did it for. Then I got thrown out into the real world and was completely unprepared for how to deal with it. The titanic was sinking and I didn't know how to swim, let alone swim in icy waters. It sucked, plain and simple. I'm glad someone finally saw fit to throw me a lifesaver. The chains came off when I left christianity--the mental chains--and some emotional chains. I know there's yin/yang--balance to everything--and there was good that came out of the affiliation with christianity--but in my opinion--it was very harmful, but I know that when you are immersed in it there is an extreme difficulty in seeing that harm because you really have to be on the outside looking in to see it. I think I changed more when I became an exchristian than when I became a christian. That's my sob story. If nothing else it may be good for a laugh, or even a cry, or two. LeslieLook.gif FF Mini ProfilePMEmail PosterYahoo Top Lizard Posted: Jan 9 2005, 02:03 PM Report PostQuote Post doubter *** Group: Members Posts: 38 Member No.: 389 Joined: 13-December 04 WE are all God.. I'm still being harmed, to a degree. Let me back up though. I never got fully involved in a church in real life. It was online, which I'm sure most of you know can be just as intense. I stepped away from it, got free..and then went back to it..full force, head on fundamentalism. Wanted to be accepted by "them". I think I harmed more people than I myself was harmed. I hurt many people by the attitude that prevails. My friends..who are/were Christians didn't even know me! I nearly got booted from one board for it (a Christian board at that!) I turned into a raging fool, briefly..very briefly. The icing on the cake came this morning. I checked the fundie board. I've been "deleted". No comment, no note, nothing. The thing is..I never posted anything there against their "beliefs"..it was because of something I posted at the other Christian board..from an idea I got here..and I can't find the post now..about Jesus and Paul. I called those who follow that hardline fundamentalism "Paulites"..I didn't even name them..nor did I even use the term "fundamentalist"..they assumed I was talking about them..and I was, but it wasn't so obvious..only to them..I guess "the shoe fit".. So..banned a second time from a fundamentalist board.. I'm not really "harmed" by this..more like..hmm..embarassed? I dunno. I'm looking for answers..for truth. Fundamentalism isn't it. I told someone earlier, I like the principles that Jesus set forth .."love your neighbor as yourself" to me is the big one. If everyone could just do that..well..then again, I know people who hate themselves..so that wouldn't work either, would it? lmao_99.gif Ok..harmed..yes, left to feel "less" a person because I didn't walk lockstep with them? After being told I didn't have to be just like them..should have known it was a lie! Left to feel "not good enough" to be a part of the inner clique of "xtians"..because I checked out other "things"..of the new age/metaphysical variety? -------------------- Life is but a dream...so when do we wake up? Mini ProfilePMEmail Poster Top Alexy_Lady Posted: Jan 9 2005, 08:29 PM Report PostQuote Post doubter *** Group: Senior Members Posts: 92 Member No.: 22 Joined: 4-October 04 Something to do with an Earthen Religion. Buckle your seatbelts. How have I been harmed by the church? Well, some of you may remember my post about my father and how I wanted to tell him about my not being a christian. Thing is, I haven't been a christian for almost 3 years now. However, before I deconverted, I was very much into christainity, to the point where it was the only thing keeping me afloat for awhile. One of you mentioned being a suicidal 8 year old? Well, I know somewhat how you feel, because I was a suicidal 10 year old. Let me explain a little better. I grew up with my father and stepmother in a southern baptist home. My father very much believed in "spare the rod, spoil the child," and if we got in trouble while he wasn't home, or while we were somewhere else, we got it doubly when we got home. The sight of the belt being removed was a common sight for me as well. As a child, I did everything I could to avoid it, to the point where I developed a complex for lying about and hiding anything that might get me into trouble. As the oldest child, I was the most responsible. I got lucky to be a female in this case, because eventually my dad began to go easier on me because of that. My brother, didn't get off so easy, and it killed me to see this. Many times I wanted to kill my father because I could hear the cries of my siblings and see the tears streaming down their faces afterwards. We all soon learned (there were four of us - girl, boy, girl, boy) not to talk about it afterwards, for bitter sounding wards could get you even more punishment. I got "saved" when I was seven, and sincerely believed I was. Still, I was wracked with the belief that I wasn't good enough. My father had a habit of praying for my sins as well as his own we he came and prayed with us at night. For awhile, I even believed that if I didn't pray before I went to bed I'd die in my sleep and go to hell. My father's bedtime prayers were long and boisterous, and it was all I could do to stay awake for fear of death and hell during these prayers. That'll fuck with a kid's head, let me tell you. As a child, I was also not allowed to listen to, read, or watch anything that wasn't approved by my father - school or no. If he didn't think I should be reading it, he'd send a note to school asking that I be excused due to my beliefs. My teachers never liked this, and I didn't either. I loved to read, and it killed me to have to parlay these messages to my teachers. Eventually, I quit taking them, and just told my father that they agreed. I read them in my free time at school, and often got in trouble for reading in class. *chuckle* I got in trouble a lot as a child for things like this. A few months after I turned ten, my father and step-mother got divorced, and we moved up to Indiana from Arkansas. All I had known I left, and I stayed with my mother for the rest of the school year so my father could get everything together for us to move. During this year, I learned exactly how sheltered I had been, and how rediculious I was, too. I had been so close to turning my back on religion, but at that time it was my only safe-guard. The only thing I really knew. So, I dove into it and held on for dear life. I only ended up staying with my mother for a year, and then my brother and I moved back in with my father - who was staying with my grandparents. This was fine with me, since I loved my grandparents dearly and their house was certainly big enough to accommodate us. My grandmother was a huge religious fanatic, and once again I was pulled back into the religious circle. By the time I was 13 I knew more about christianity and the bible than most kids my age knew about their favorite television show. I was once again sheltered, and didn't have my first "boyfriend" until I was 13 and in sixth grade. Even then, holding hands was discouraged, and I was only allowed to see him while there where responsible adults around. Not that I would have known what to do if we were alone. So, I forgot to mention how I became I suicidal 10 year old. Although I was living with my mother at the time, I still saw much of my father and was able to observe him in a way I hadn't before. I saw an angrier, less trustworthy side of the man I had previously believed to be almost as good as god. Now I know that he is as good as God, since of course I don't believe in God. FrogsToadBigGrin.gif Anyway, in seeing this, and in learning many new things that I hadn't previously known during my short stint in the secular world, I became very confused. My mother always talked about my father objectively, and tried her best not to say anything bad about him around us, even though I knew she was thinking it. My father, how ever, showed me his bastard side, and cursed my mother and previous stepmother numerous times. He grew angry and more controlling, and I got the brunt of a lot of this again due to being the oldest. I believed that I was evil and doomed for hell, and I was confused at how I could believe the two women to be good when my father was so adamant in telling me that they were evil. I also began to like boys (I was at that age, you know), and believed that that was wrong. Basically, not only did I believe I was doomed for hell, I was doubting my religion and I was angry at my father for starting all of this. Somehow, I made it my fault (which I have a habit to do in most situations), and grew very depressed and suicidal. I remember once I was standing in a tree in the back of our church, looking down at the ground and wondering what would happen if I dove out of it. Would I break my neck and die? Would I severely harm myself and land in the hospital? If I did die, would I end up in hell or heaven? No ten year old should ever have to think these things. This is only a small part of how religion harmed me. Needless to say, after diving right back into the religious circle, I had very low self esteem and believed I was doomed to hell. I knew I was saved, but did I? I eventually lost count of the times I "rededicated my life to Christ." Of course, outwardly, I seemed to be a healthy, happy, teenage girl. I've always been a good actress. Inside, I was being destroyed, and even while typing this I can feel the emotions that swirled around in me then. They weren't fun, and they weren't something that a teenager should have to deal with. I didn't know who I was. I was someone at home, someone at school, someone at church, someone in private - and they were all different someones. I was lost inside, and I didn't know up from down. Luckily for me, my father decided he was going to move again when I was 14, and this time I was given a choice. I chose to stay with my mother. My father accepted it, and cut off contact with me. That hurt me more than anything, but he claimed that I had made my choice and he would pray for me. In his mind, I had chosen hell and the devil. That also will fuck with your mind. I continued to go to church while living with my mother, praying fervently and becoming very emotionally unstable. Soon, church became an emotional stabilizer and lost the religious fervor. I still studied the bible, but now I was more objective and understood more as I read it. I picked out most of the contradictory items that I had been told to ignore as a child, and asked questions of everything. Slowly, my religion crumbled before me, and I lost faith. When I was 16, I quit church altogether, and began to research other religions. I met some people who were wiccan, and looked into paganism, where I currently am now. It took me a year to completely let myself go from religion, to re-culture myself from praying to a god that didn't exist and from wondering if this and that was going to send me to hell or not. I'm still not completely free from the bonds of religion, since my father and I have began to talk again. He's still incredibly fundamentalist, and I fear what will happen when he finds out that I'm a pagan. Luckily, I have my mother's side of the family who stands behind me, and I'm confident that at least part of my father's side with stand with me, too. But most of them are very strong in their Christain beliefs, and easily riled against those who aren't. It will probably be awhile until I tell them. I'm still recovering from my bout with Christainity, and I'm not sure I could handle another round coming from the ones I love. ((Sorry, this kind of turned into a long rant, but there it is.)) -------------------- user posted image ~~ ~~ ~~ ~~ ~~ My Livejournal ~~ My Photos ~~ ~~ ~~ ~~ ~~ Mini ProfilePMEmail PosterUsers WebsiteAOLYahooMSN Top unchainedhillbilly Posted: Jan 10 2005, 08:39 AM Report PostQuote Post questioner ** Group: Members Posts: 31 Member No.: 435 Joined: 26-December 04 Ben Stein is God We should start a club here for folks who were suicidal at a young age. Maybe we can have a contest to see who was suicidal first. I think I have you all beat- I was suicidal when I was EIGHT! The Wesleyan take on christianity requires constant repentance, and much like folks who have posted previously on this board, there's never any real confirmation that your'e finally 'good enough' to get into heaven. In fact, every Sunday, you're informed that you're not good enough, you need to do more, pay more, repent more, feel more, BE more. By the time I was eight years old, I was convinced that I had only two choices in life. I could continue to strive and repent hoping in vain that I could remain saved (that I didn't happen to inadvertantly die before repenting of my last comitted sin- or ghod forbid FORGET some sin and not repent of it), or I could just be done with it and be damned to hell. Given those two choices, I figured I might as well die and get it over with. I was too young to know exactly how a feller would go about killing himself, but I had this cheap (and rather dull) stainless steel hunting knife. I tried to stab myself with it, but I only managed to get a little blood. I felt pretty guilty about this for quite some time- not because I'd tried to kill myself, but because I was too much of a wuss to do it. An eight-year-old shouldn't have to deal with that sort of thing. To be fair, there's a significant amount of mental illness on both sides of my family- all of it intertwined with christianity, but the fact is, this wasn't about depression- this was about DAMNATION. While I'm bitching... here's another way christianity has harmed me. Some people think a man is born with a concience. I don't know if that's the case- I think maybe it's taught. When I was a kid, any sort of guilt or concience was always tied to GHOD. This or that was a sin... or "what would jesus think of you doing that?" My deconversion began at an early age, and I no longer considered myself christian after age 11 (though I had a week long holy-terror of a relapse when I was 13), and since then, I've never REALLY felt guilty about anything. There's no god... so what do I care if I lie/cheat/steal/beat? Of course, it was very rare that I was ever violent, and I've generally not made a practice of intentionally hurting people(with a few exceptions when I was young and stupid)... but I don't think it would've bothered me a bit if I would've. So THANKYOU JESUS for stealing my concience! I'm now older, wiser, and happily married to a beautiful atheist-leaning agnostic formerly methodist gal. She insists that I have a concience, and maybe I do... but if so, it only applies to her and maybe her mother (my mother-in-law is a hell of a gal). Short of the Almighty himself, nothing on this earth can instill guilt like a WOMAN! This post has been edited by unchainedhillbilly on Jan 10 2005, 08:55 AM -------------------- If we're all God's children, then what's so special about Jesus? 100% God-free for 14 years Mini ProfilePMEmail PosterYahoo Top Amethyst_Moonstar Posted: Jan 30 2005, 03:36 PM Report PostQuote Post strong minded ***** Group: Senior Members Posts: 339 Member No.: 380 Joined: 9-December 04 Chocolate! Let's see. I was raised by a fundamentalist Lutheran mom, and a dad who was moderate. No matter what I did, according to my mom, I was going straight to hell if it wasn't exactly what she wanted. She also told me constantly that I was never going to be good enough for anyone. You don't tell a young child that. It gets ingrained into their subconscious minds. I am a Bibliophile. Growing up, if something wasn't approved by the church, I couldn't read it. I have no doubt that she would've never let me read Harry Potter if it had been around when I was a kid. I grew up with low self-esteem from my mother's rants, and was constantly bullied by kids at a Lutheran school. The teachers did nothing. I highly suspect it was because I questioned what they said at times. Showing signs of intelligence is usually a Bad Thing if you go to a fundie school. She got cancer when I was about 12. I was constantly being bullied besides, and dealing with that stress was hard enough. I was depressed throughout most of high school, until she passed away. I had a few close friends, but I was far from popular. It was only in my senior year that my life started to turn around. I was a foreign exchange student. No longer being brainwashed by the church every Sunday, I was able to think clearly. When I went to college, I was finally able to find more friends who shared my interests. I suspect that I would have had much higher self-esteem had my mother not been a fundie, and had I not gone to a Christian school. My self-esteem has improved much since then, but I wish that my childhood had been happier. -------------------- People are stupid. They will believe anything they want to be true or fear to be true. -- Terry Goodkind, Wizard's First Rule Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlinfmct87 Posted April 18, 2005 Author Share Posted April 18, 2005 dream Posted: Jan 30 2005, 08:22 PM Report PostQuote Post questioner ** Group: Members Posts: 34 Member No.: 554 Joined: 30-January 05 Yes My former christian friend, whom I thought was a true friend, said that I either have to live for Jesus otherwise she can't be friends with me. Oh and there was this Christian guy who told me that "God" "told" him that we were supposed to be together in a romantic relationship, so this was back when I was a Christian. So finally I just felt uneasy about it, something just wasn't right, so I told him, and he got very angry. He said "you betrayed my trust, blah blah blah, pray and God will guide you and until you do that we can't talk to each other." He also told me that he literally heard the voice of God and that he was God's prophet. He was some piece of work, anyway, I really didn't give a shit if he heard from God or not, or if I betrayed his trust. I just didn't care about him. Truth is that I don't care if he lives or dies. He means nothing to me. He never really did. Then in November he contacts me and tells me how sorry he was for trying to force me into his belief system, blah blah blah. At that point, I just didn't care if he was sorry or not, if he jumps off a cliff and dies, so what? I just don't give a shit. He also admitted that he didn't hear from God. That didn't hurt me though. It was annoying having him trying to manipulate me to believe the way that he does. Frankly I think that he was just mentally sick, he maybe has schizophrenia..that's a mental disorder where people hear and see delusions and hallucinations. It's a serious disease. The thing is that he was just a joke. He made such an ass of himself claiming to be God's prophet, and he needs to just get a life. Really. I don't have much contact with him now, he is just weird!! So that was my little adventure in the christian church culture. This post has been edited by dream on Feb 1 2005, 10:06 PM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scitsofreaky Posted April 18, 2005 Share Posted April 18, 2005 I would say that it hurt me in a couple of ways. First, it destroyed my sense of self. It teaches/I was taught that we are inherintly evil, so we must reject ourselves, so I really didn't know much about myself, if that makes any sense. It also prevented me from expressing my emotions (mostly negative, but I really hadn't had many positive feelings growing up), which is still a problem for me to this day. It has probably affected me in more ways than I even know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
liquid ash Posted April 24, 2005 Share Posted April 24, 2005 Definately, loss of a sense of self since they teach that one must deny oneself. So scitsofreaky, your quote: Know thyself, be true to thyself is a very good one. But how can one truely know thyself when thyself changes so quickly. For me it was implanting fear so deep that it is difficult to overcome sometimes. Fear can become a habit that rolls over into many other areas of your life and in doing so holds you back from exploring yourself. So for me, it is fear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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