♦ Fuego ♦ Posted February 28, 2009 Share Posted February 28, 2009 How lovely for you. I take it this means you are certain of your salvation. Well, I do have doubts sometimes. But all I can do is to trust in God's grace in Jesus. This grace means that my relationship with and standing before God is not based on my success or my behavior; it's based on Jesus Christ. This gives me hope. Too bad everyone doesn't experience this level of trust, isn't it? How would you account for the fact that many here have had faith and yet never certainty? Maybe they failed to understand God's grace; maybe the Church didn't ever explained it to them; or maybe they couldn't believe the grace is just for them. I dont' know, but it's very sad. I, for one, was quite certain of my salvation and of God's grace and mercy. Up until April of last year I was unshakingly confident in my Christianity and its truth. I had spent 30 years studying the scriptures, studying cults (to make sure I knew the difference), grounding myself in the orthodox beliefs of the church (so that I didn't get tricked by any new heretical ideas), teaching Bible studies, and many many hours of heartfelt worship for the amazing grace I had been given. Over the years I had questions, and sought answers diligently because I have always valued truth more than just about anything. Some answers made sense, and others were troubling. I was an avid follower of creation science and knew scientists that were also convinced of its reality. I read many books and watched lots of videos demonstrating the reality of creation science. I also spent many hours witnessing to Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses, and had at least some success. I was never abused in the church, and for the most part it was a pleasant experience. So please understand, I was not just a fringe person in the church, I was in it and of it. I loved Jesus. By April of 2008, I had stopped attending church due to some stark disagreements with the leadership, and hadn't found any congregations locally that were serious about God. I was still following the preaching of a particular evangelist that I had known for 10 years who called sin sin and was very black and white about following Christ as King. I had listened to and distributed hundreds of hours of his preaching, with thousands of stories of miracles which were the result of God responding to his no-compromise Christian lifestyle. I took God seriously, and preached the same to others. Then I caught this preacher saying something I knew was untrue, because I had video evidence that he was lying. This was deeply troubling to me. I then confirmed with others that he had done this repeatedly, casting serious doubt on all his tales of miracles. It took me about 6 months to conclude that this preacher and his followers were exhibiting several cult-like behaviors, and that I was better off without their influence. I had also been seriously investigating the idea of Hell, since it didn't seem to appear in the Old Testament or in the Jewish faith, and that struck me as very odd indeed. Why would God not tell people about something so important until the time of Jesus? I confirmed via talks with Jews and through other evidence that damnation was a concept that came from other pagan religions, not from Judaism. If Christianity was supposed to be the fulfillment of Judaism, then something was terribly wrong. I began to wonder if Christianity itself was legitimate. In the next month, I pored over the scriptures and whatever resources I could find on the Internet, and had to conclude that I had been lied to yet again. While this was disturbing and sad, it was also freeing and joyful, because it made so much sense. I didn't need to feel ashamed for normal emotions and desires, nor condemn others for their lifestyles that were outside the Christian norm. I am happier now than I have been in years, and I still continue to look into the scriptures and compare them with what I can verify as true, because truth is still the most important thing for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Badger Posted February 28, 2009 Share Posted February 28, 2009 Thanks for sharing your story, Fuego! I had also been seriously investigating the idea of Hell, since it didn't seem to appear in the Old Testament or in the Jewish faith, and that struck me as very odd indeed. Are you saying there was no any kind of conception of hell in the Old Testament or Judaism? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abiyoyo Posted February 28, 2009 Share Posted February 28, 2009 Thanks for sharing your story, Fuego! I had also been seriously investigating the idea of Hell, since it didn't seem to appear in the Old Testament or in the Jewish faith, and that struck me as very odd indeed. Are you saying there was no any kind of conception of hell in the Old Testament or Judaism? Are you saying there is a conception of Hell from the OT and Judaism? If so, proceed... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
♦ Fuego ♦ Posted March 1, 2009 Share Posted March 1, 2009 Thanks for sharing your story, Fuego! I had also been seriously investigating the idea of Hell, since it didn't seem to appear in the Old Testament or in the Jewish faith, and that struck me as very odd indeed. Are you saying there was no any kind of conception of hell in the Old Testament or Judaism? They may have been aware of it in the surrounding religions, but there is no record of it in historic Judaism. The term "sheol" was the grave, something that all people went to whether they were kings or common. In Kaballah (mystic Judaism), there is a purgatory-like place that is used to cleanse those who have been wicked, but then they come out and return to try again (reincarnation). But eternal damnation is not a Jewish concept. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Badger Posted March 1, 2009 Share Posted March 1, 2009 Fuego, I'm sure you know that sheol is not the only word for hell; there is also gehenna. Anyway, hell as an eternal punishment seems not to be completely foreign to Jewish. "There is also the implication that this punishment is an eternal one (Sib. Or. 2:292-310; Josephus Ant. 18:14; J.W. 2:163; 3.374-75). -- Though generally its fiery torments (b. Sabb. 39a: b. B. Bat. 84a) are believed to be limited in duration (m. 'Ed. 2:10; b. Sabb. 33b; b. Ros Has. 16b-17a), the thoroughly wicked do not reascend from it (b. B. Mes 58; b. Ros Has. 16b-17a)" (Dictionary of Jesus and the Gospels, s.v. "Heaven and Hell.") Rabbi Simmons says that, "a handful of people are too evil for Gehenom, and they are punished eternally. Pharaoh is one example." (Ask Rabbi Simmons: Afterlife in Judaism) According to http://www.jewfaq.org hell is "the place of spiritual punishment and/or purification for the wicked dead in Judaism is not referred to as Hell, but as Gehinnom or She'ol. According to most sources, the period of punishment or purification is limited to 12 months, after which the soul ascends to Olam Ha-Ba or is destroyed (if it is utterly wicked)." Now, not even all Christians believe that hell is eternal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charley Posted March 1, 2009 Share Posted March 1, 2009 All of this is a clear example of the insecurity induced by many faiths that then spreads like a disease. I think this works by the doubt compelling people to seek validation of their belief through participating in the church and proselytizing others to do so. After all, it "..... couldn't be wrong if so many people agreed.... ", no matter how little it added up to when thought out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
upstarter Posted March 1, 2009 Share Posted March 1, 2009 I seem to have joined this thread late, after it skipped the track and went to hell (so to speak), but I wanted a chance to respond to the OP. I echo Hans almost exactly. This was the one question I struggled with more than any other when I was a xtian. I answered more alter calls than I can count. I said prayers quietly in my own room and in my own heart. I was desperate for some confirmation that I was doing it right, that I was saved and would go to heaven. I was looking for the peace that passeth understanding... and it never came. I never felt whatever it was that the people around me were feeling. Then in my teens I encountered the idea of the unforgivable sin and I was pretty sure from that point on that I was doomed. To come out the other side of it and realize that it was all bull to start with and that I was struggling to feel something that was as real as pixie dust, that was the beginning of real freedom and peace. And just an aside, why doesn't this Badger creature have a squiddie? Heather Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abiyoyo Posted March 1, 2009 Share Posted March 1, 2009 Now, not even all Christians believe that hell is eternal. If you don't mind me asking, What are you beliefs Badger? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
♦ Fuego ♦ Posted March 2, 2009 Share Posted March 2, 2009 Fuego, I'm sure you know that sheol is not the only word for hell; there is also gehenna. Anyway, hell as an eternal punishment seems not to be completely foreign to Jewish. "There is also the implication that this punishment is an eternal one (Sib. Or. 2:292-310; Josephus Ant. 18:14; J.W. 2:163; 3.374-75). -- Though generally its fiery torments (b. Sabb. 39a: b. B. Bat. 84a) are believed to be limited in duration (m. 'Ed. 2:10; b. Sabb. 33b; b. Ros Has. 16b-17a), the thoroughly wicked do not reascend from it (b. B. Mes 58; b. Ros Has. 16b-17a)" (Dictionary of Jesus and the Gospels, s.v. "Heaven and Hell.") Rabbi Simmons says that, "a handful of people are too evil for Gehenom, and they are punished eternally. Pharaoh is one example." (Ask Rabbi Simmons: Afterlife in Judaism) According to http://www.jewfaq.org hell is "the place of spiritual punishment and/or purification for the wicked dead in Judaism is not referred to as Hell, but as Gehinnom or She'ol. According to most sources, the period of punishment or purification is limited to 12 months, after which the soul ascends to Olam Ha-Ba or is destroyed (if it is utterly wicked)." Now, not even all Christians believe that hell is eternal. Some Rabbis do echo that sentiment, but it is relatively late and not in the mainstream. This tends to show how vague a concept hell is in their thoughts. My point in all this was that something so utterly nasty as hell went completely unmentioned from Adam to Malachi, then suddenly appears in the preaching of John and Jesus where is it brought into stark description of "eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels", as well as a place of eternal suffering for all those that go through the "wide gate" or who ignore the suffering of others. Gehenna was where the other religions sacrificed children and the Jews burned garbage and the bodies of criminals, thus it became a symbol of wretchedness and evil. But God himself mentioned nothing of a burning afterlife, and given the proclivity of YHWH for blood and suffering, this is surprising but also very telling. As for Christians that don't believe it is supposed to be eternal, if they pick and choose the words they want, they can think that Jesus backs anything they happen to believe (including being porn stars...) Having stepped back from the whole thing and examined the religion of Christianity more objectively, I conclude is a synchretic gathering of beliefs that have no binding reality backing them up. That is why I felt safe in leaving it after 30 years of devotion. I think we've hijacked this thread enough, since the primary thrust was whether one felt or was convinced of being saved or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Badger Posted March 2, 2009 Share Posted March 2, 2009 If you don't mind me asking, What are you beliefs Badger? That the New Testament teaches eternal hell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vomit Comet Posted March 2, 2009 Share Posted March 2, 2009 When I first came across the "unforgivable" "blaspheme the holy spirit" part early on in my walk, I freaked out. I'd been all into Slayer, Venom, Cannibal Corpse, etc., and thinking satan was all cool and bad-ass (I was 15), before getting saved so I figured maybe my chances of having inadvertently done that were much higher than that of average unsaved teenagers. Well, one of the youth leaders put me at ease. He said "if you had done that, you wouldn't be wondering if you had done it. You would be laughing about it." So that put me at ease for the next 12 years, you could say. To this day I don't have the balls to do it. I'll sometimes say that Jesus can kiss my ass, suck my dick, etc., but that's about as far as I'll go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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