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nightflight
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There was a man about 2000 years ago. He lived his life, he ended up being captured by the Romans. He was put through an assembly line of torture. He was beaten, he was whipped, and in the end he was nailed to a cross and hung there until he died.

 

Once he died, he descended to Hell where he suffered the ultimate punishment - complete and utter separation from God.

 

No, not Jesus. I'm not talking about him. He was only in Hell for about 3 days - kind of a long weekend - he went there on Friday and came back on Sunday morning. I'm talking about the guy right next to him.

 

The thief who didn't accept Jesus just seconds before he died.

 

He went through the exact same beating that Jesus did, he went through either right before or right after Jesus. The same guards whipping him with the same whip. Then being marched down the same street carrying the same sort of cross. He was nailed to the cross the exact same way Jesus was, and when he died he descended to Hell - presumably the same way Jesus did. (For those of you who believe Jesus went to Hell during his little vacation.)

 

While in Hell - since Hell is complete and utter separation from God - he suffered the same way Jesus did. But for some reason he goes completely ignored. His suffering was the same - actually his suffering than Jesus because he's still there.

 

If the story is true, he's been in Hell suffering the same emotional, physical, and spiritual torture for almost 2000 years. Jesus was there for a day and a half.

 

In what way was Jesus' trip to Hell and his death the "ultimate" sacrifice, when the guy right next to him went through the exact same beating and has been spending far more time in eternal torture? How is his sacrifice any less than Jesus'?

 

http://www.toughquestionspodcast.com/

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There was a man about 2000 years ago. He lived his life, he ended up being captured by the Romans. He was put through an assembly line of torture. He was beaten, he was whipped, and in the end he was nailed to a cross and hung there until he died.

 

Once he died, he descended to Hell where he suffered the ultimate punishment - complete and utter separation from God.

 

No, not Jesus. I'm not talking about him. He was only in Hell for about 3 days - kind of a long weekend - he went there on Friday and came back on Sunday morning. I'm talking about the guy right next to him.

 

The thief who didn't accept Jesus just seconds before he died.

 

He went through the exact same beating that Jesus did, he went through either right before or right after Jesus. The same guards whipping him with the same whip. Then being marched down the same street carrying the same sort of cross. He was nailed to the cross the exact same way Jesus was, and when he died he descended to Hell - presumably the same way Jesus did. (For those of you who believe Jesus went to Hell during his little vacation.)

 

While in Hell - since Hell is complete and utter separation from God - he suffered the same way Jesus did. But for some reason he goes completely ignored. His suffering was the same - actually his suffering than Jesus because he's still there.

 

If the story is true, he's been in Hell suffering the same emotional, physical, and spiritual torture for almost 2000 years. Jesus was there for a day and a half.

 

In what way was Jesus' trip to Hell and his death the "ultimate" sacrifice, when the guy right next to him went through the exact same beating and has been spending far more time in eternal torture? How is his sacrifice any less than Jesus'?

 

http://www.toughquestionspodcast.com/

 

 

The Romans may have executed Jesus, but the decision was the Jews. The difference was the accusation of sin on Jesus. The other man was being executed for whichever crime he committed. Jesus did not commit a crime. Jesus spoke of Himself to be the One who was to come for the Jews. He was a prophet/messiah/rabbi, etc of the Jewish people, then the Jews killed Him.

 

He went on His vacation to death, hades, hell, the pit etc; He took the keys to this place. Nobody knows if this other man is still being eternally tortured, for over 2000 years.

 

I think the question was pretty weak.

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The difference was the accusation of sin on Jesus. The other man was being executed for whichever crime he committed. Jesus did not commit a crime.

 

The thief is experiencing eternal punishment for his sin, yet as Christianity teaches us, he was born a "sinner". Jesus was the god-man who could not sin.

 

Nobody knows if this other man is still being eternally tortured, for over 2000 years.

 

Those Christians who accept the doctrine of eternal torment do.

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Nobody knows if this other man is still being eternally tortured, for over 2000 years.

 

:twitch:

 

Er....and where the fuck ELSE would he be? You care to try and invent some kind of afterlife hell parole system that is mentioned NOWHERE in the bible?

 

And the "innocent man" argument for jesus is ridiculous. Even with our technology, DNA, and forensics....even though we've reduced the probability greatly with these tools...INNOCENT MEN STILL GET EXECUTED! You really want to try to tell me these men are "coved" because they all become christians before execution, don't EVEN try it! That is BS without proof.

 

And prior to the technology....the track record was a lot WORSE. LOT of innocent men of VARIOUS faiths have died and gone to hell WORLDWIDE.

 

Want to try for Jesus never sinned? Disobeyed his mom at some point. You really want to say a kid going off to speak in a temple when everyone is getting ready to leave and walking some ways outside the city can do that without disobeying mom and adoptive dad? Kids back then old enough to walk were given tasks of some kind...even a basic "Watch the donkey while we pack."

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Nobody knows if this other man is still being eternally tortured, for over 2000 years.

 

:twitch:

 

Er....and where the fuck ELSE would he be? You care to try and invent some kind of afterlife hell parole system that is mentioned NOWHERE in the bible?

 

And the "innocent man" argument for jesus is ridiculous. Even with our technology, DNA, and forensics....even though we've reduced the probability greatly with these tools...INNOCENT MEN STILL GET EXECUTED! You really want to try to tell me these men are "coved" because they all become christians before execution, don't EVEN try it! That is BS without proof.

 

And prior to the technology....the track record was a lot WORSE. LOT of innocent men of VARIOUS faiths have died and gone to hell WORLDWIDE.

 

Want to try for Jesus never sinned? Disobeyed his mom at some point. You really want to say a kid going off to speak in a temple when everyone is getting ready to leave and walking some ways outside the city can do that without disobeying mom and adoptive dad? Kids back then old enough to walk were given tasks of some kind...even a basic "Watch the donkey while we pack."

 

I guess he would be where everyone else would be. In Idon'tfreakinknow land. We know nothing other than what the book says about it, Right?

 

Wanna fight! :wicked:

 

Luke is the only Gospel that mentions Christ speaking to the others crucified with Him. Matthew says they both said to save them, in contrast to Luke. Mark and John have no mention of talks between the two. Even in logical assumption, in Luke; Jesus did not rebuke the man, the other thief rebuked the man, then asked Jesus to remember Him. Christ didn't say, today you will go to paradise, and you other, you will be tormented for eternity. What if He said it to both parties? Jesus rebuked Peter and even told his devil to get behind Him. Did Peter go to Hell?

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Christ didn't say, today you will go to paradise, and you other, you will be tormented for eternity. What if He said it to both parties?

 

The "you" ("thee" and "thou" in the Old English) is in the singular form, not the plural. The same is true for the Greek. So he could not have been addressing more than one person.

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Luke is the only Gospel that mentions Christ speaking to the others crucified with Him. Matthew says they both said to save them, in contrast to Luke. Mark and John have no mention of talks between the two. Even in logical assumption, in Luke; Jesus did not rebuke the man, the other thief rebuked the man, then asked Jesus to remember Him. Christ didn't say, today you will go to paradise, and you other, you will be tormented for eternity. What if He said it to both parties? Jesus rebuked Peter and even told his devil to get behind Him. Did Peter go to Hell?

And those of us who think the bible is a steaming pile of dogshit think you're arguing about the color of the wind.

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Christ didn't say, today you will go to paradise, and you other, you will be tormented for eternity. What if He said it to both parties?

 

The "you" ("thee" and "thou" in the Old English) is in the singular form, not the plural. The same is true for the Greek. So he could not have been addressing more than one person.

 

Which would mean, since He didn't say- to thee, you, thou; to the other man in condemnation, he possibly isn't in eternal torture? Fair? Apples for apples.

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Christ didn't say, today you will go to paradise, and you other, you will be tormented for eternity. What if He said it to both parties?

 

The "you" ("thee" and "thou" in the Old English) is in the singular form, not the plural. The same is true for the Greek. So he could not have been addressing more than one person.

 

Which would mean, since He didn't say- to thee, you, thou; to the other man in condemnation, he possibly isn't in eternal torture? Fair? Apples for apples.

 

 

So are you a universalist?

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Nobody knows if this other man is still being eternally tortured, for over 2000 years.

 

:twitch:

 

Er....and where the fuck ELSE would he be? You care to try and invent some kind of afterlife hell parole system that is mentioned NOWHERE in the bible?

 

 

Why the fuck couldn't god forgive after he was dead? He had his "perfect sacrifice" already... (Eternal punishment is never mentioned in the bible either. I am thinking there isn't even a Greek or Hebrew word that means "eternal".)

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And those of us who think the bible is a steaming pile of dogshit think you're arguing about the color of the wind.

 

Wait a minute! Now you have gone too far. You can't wipe your ass with a steaming pile of dogshit.

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Why the fuck couldn't god forgive after he was dead? He had his "perfect sacrifice" already... (Eternal punishment is never mentioned in the bible either. I am thinking there isn't even a Greek or Hebrew word that means "eternal".)

 

That's my point. Jesus was in no way connectible to the other guy on the cross; as far as eternal torturing. Which would make the tough question in the OP to me kinda weak. :shrug:

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YoYo,

 

Come on, answer the real question. I know that you are not too dense to figure it out.

 

What was so all fired sacrificey about getting the shit kicked out of him and getting tortured to death and then spending a few hours in hell? Lots of people have been through worse than that. When you sacrifice something you loose it. It's gone. It's kaput as far as the sacrificer is concerned. God didn't give his only begotten son. He just sort of lent him for a few tics of eternity. The point is that if Jesus really suffered our punishment for us, the poor bastard would still be getting pitchforked back into the fire even as we speak.

 

Remember the ram that was sacrificed instead of Isaac? That ram was supposed to be a type of Jesus no? The ram didn't get it's life back. It got burnt to a crisp.

And Abraham lifted up his eyes, and looked, and behold behind him a ram caught in the thicket by his horns. And Abraham went and took the ram, and offered him up for a burnt-offering in the stead of his son.

The ram was all gone.

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Come on, answer the real question. I know that you are not too dense to figure it out.

 

What was so all fired sacrificey about getting the shit kicked out of him and getting tortured to death and then spending a few hours in hell?

 

Hi Chef. :grin:

 

Seriously. Come on? The question is senseless. This Jesus was suppose to be the Jews Messiah. Some of which believed He was; followed Him, witnessed His miracles which He gave glory to their God, spoke of things outside the here and now, and then these same followers witnessed Him be executed Roman style, by their own suppose to be religious leaders, or priests.

 

Then they witnessed Him resurrect and speak to them. Jesus, according to John, in Revelations, says He has the keys to death and hell. Hence, He was something eternal from God. I simply pointed out that Jesus never said, Hey you, your going to eternal torment; as the Op states the man is enduring this very moment.

 

Even assuming the man went to hell. We are not God nor Jesus, so we as humans couldn't say where anyone is destined to say for all eternity. Maybe he's there, maybe he's not. Dunno.

 

To answer your question. Jesus was born of a virgin birth. Wouldn't that make Him God's only begotten Son?, assuming God isn't lying and He has other illegitimate children out there. If the God of Israel truly did send Jesus to be born in Mary, God claimed He was His only begotten child, then the God of Israel's child was executed by God's supposed people. That would be pretty profound in the community of Jews that accept it.

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Even assuming the man went to hell. We are not God nor Jesus, so we as humans couldn't say where anyone is destined to say for all eternity. Maybe he's there, maybe he's not. Dunno.
But the bible does say that punishment in hell is eternal. It says so in Luke 16:25-26
But Abraham said, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. 26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.’
So the bible does say that once you pass over into hell, you can't cross over into heaven or vice versa. And in Mark 16:16, Jesus says that everyone who doesn't believe and isn't baptized will go to hell. The other man on the cross didn't believe and wasn't baptized, so according to biblical doctrine, he's in hell.
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But the bible does say that punishment in hell is eternal. It says so in Luke 16:25-26.

 

But Abraham said, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. 26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.’

 

So the bible does say that once you pass over into hell, you can't cross over into heaven or vice versa. And in Mark 16:16, Jesus says that everyone who doesn't believe and isn't baptized will go to hell. The other man on the cross didn't believe and wasn't baptized, so according to biblical doctrine, he's in hell.

 

You forgot the rest of it.

 

Luke 16:27-31

27 "Then he said, 'I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father's house,

28 'for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.'

29 "Abraham said to him, 'They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.'

30 "And he said, 'No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.'

31 "But he said to him, 'If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.'"

(NKJ)

 

This would be a better verse to try to say Hell is eternal.

 

Rev 20:10

10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

(KJV)

 

Rev 20:12-15

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

(KJV)

 

That's the eternal Hell I see in my beliefs. So, my point. We are not the Judge.

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That's the eternal Hell I see in my beliefs. So, my point. We are not the Judge.
Speak English please, not Christianeze. Your whole post makes no sense and I don't understand your point. Did anyone else understand anything?

 

Christianeze? Nice. It seemed pretty self explanatory to me.

 

But the bible does say that punishment in hell is eternal. It says so in Luke 16:25-26

But Abraham said, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. 26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.’

 

So the bible does say that once you pass over into hell, you can't cross over into heaven or vice versa.

 

Luke. It mentions nothing of eternal torture. As far as the gulf that is fixed between them; it speaks in the past, or then present. It says they have Moses and the prophets. Jesus didn't say they had Moses, the prophets, and Himself. He said they had Moses and the prophets, which I would assume means that this depiction was before Christ died and got His keys to hell. Jesus is the one who told the story.Following me?

 

And in Mark 16:16, Jesus says that everyone who doesn't believe and isn't baptized will go to hell. The other man on the cross didn't believe and wasn't baptized, so according to biblical doctrine, he's in hell.

 

Mark. Jesus said that after He was dead and resurrected; that wouldn't apply to the other man as mentioned earlier.

 

English :ugh:

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Want to try for Jesus never sinned? Disobeyed his mom at some point. You really want to say a kid going off to speak in a temple when everyone is getting ready to leave and walking some ways outside the city can do that without disobeying mom and adoptive dad? Kids back then old enough to walk were given tasks of some kind...even a basic "Watch the donkey while we pack."

 

Case in point: I was "born again" at age eleven. After I deconverted I posed this question to my oldest sister. "What would have happened to me if I had died the day before being saved?" She didn't want to answer. She hemmed and hawwed. I pressed further. She finally admitted that I would go to hell! :huh: "For what possible reason?", I inquired. "Disobeying your parents.", she replied. :huh::huh: So there you have it folks! Jesus disobeyed his parents when he was left behind at the temple. He should have listened to his mother! Therefore he was not sinless! Sacrifice null and void! :crucified:

 

Yo Yo, you really believe this crap that you spew don't you? :funny:

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Rev 20:10

10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

(KJV)

 

You'd figure if God were so damn omnipotent, why wouldn't he have crushed Satan with his pinkie in the 1st chapter of Job?

 

God = tornado

Satan = tree

 

tornado > tree, therefore God > Satan

 

No need for lake of fire, no need for an apocalypse, no need for eternal torment.

 

The fact that God needs to torment some angel forever and ever shows the psychopathy of God more than it does the tempter.

 

To me, the God of the Bible is equitable to a child that likes to torture small animals.

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You'd figure if God were so damn omnipotent, why wouldn't he have crushed Satan with his pinkie in the 1st chapter of Job?

 

Because he wanted to collect on his bet with Lucifer! :grin:

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