Neon Genesis Posted February 14, 2009 Share Posted February 14, 2009 Saved from what for what? Does the bible answer that? Does that verse, chapter or book answer that? Maybe being saved has nothing to do with what happens after you die?Huh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rabbi tt Posted February 14, 2009 Share Posted February 14, 2009 Saved from what for what? Does the bible answer that? Does that verse, chapter or book answer that? Maybe being saved has nothing to do with what happens after you die?Huh? What are we supposedly saved from and for what? Saved from hell for heaven? I don't think so. (Sounds like hell is the default. That would certainly make the whole theistic explanation of creation rather idiotic) Didn't Jesus supposedly say that the kingdom of god is neither here nor there, (up or down, in another time and place, etc), but WITHIN? Sounds to me like heaven and hell are not anything after death at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chefranden Posted February 15, 2009 Share Posted February 15, 2009 Hell is eternal, I am saying we don't go anywhere until the day of judgment. Matthew 25:31"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. 32All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. 34"Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.' 37"Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?' 40"The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.' 41"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.' 44"They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?' 45"He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.' 46"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life." Don't you find it interesting that there is nothing in here about belief in resurrections, virgin births, trinities, floods deeper than the Himalayas height, waking on water, prayer magic, pre or post millenniums, righteous deeds being filthy rags, the God of the bible, Jesus...? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snafutopia Posted February 18, 2009 Share Posted February 18, 2009 Am curious as to why it seems a lot of ex-c's say complimentary things about Jesus. First, I'm not sure what you mean with "a lot of ex-c's?" Most of the time I hear people complaining that we are all and only venom spewing anti-Christians who hates everything and deny everything. So it's interesting to hear that "a lot" of us now suddenly are the opposite. oops sorry I was generalizing. It just seems that lately a lot of things I've read by ex-c's or at least nonreligious people are along the lines of "Well, Jesus was a good person, just misunderstood" (or whatever). It's just surprising to me, and reading the remainder of your reply I guess I'm still (even after all these years) angry and hostile toward Jesus, especially the Jesus I was taught about in the Baptist church, and the Jesus I read about in the Bible -- but maybe that's because I'm still subconsciously assuming the Jesus in the Bible really said the things the Bible says he said lol uh never mind. I just was surprised that a non-christian was saying complimentary things about a person who I believe was a lying scammer. When of course I don't know whether he was or not, or even if he was even a real person at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted February 18, 2009 Share Posted February 18, 2009 oops sorry I was generalizing. I'm good at that too. It just seems that lately a lot of things I've read by ex-c's or at least nonreligious people are along the lines of "Well, Jesus was a good person, just misunderstood" (or whatever). Nah, not many. Some of the Christians on this website do, a few non-Christians say there's a possibility that Jesus existed as a real human being, but he wasn't any God-son, miracle worker, or fabulous Tarzan with Santa Clause features. But just regular Joe Blow, who got a group of people following him, because he spoke up again Rome, against religious stagnation, and perhaps he connected with the people on a more JFK level. Maybe Jesus, as a human, was like MLK? "I have a dream." And people thought his toga was quite in, since green was out, and black was the new white... you know, there are many perspectives, and my point was more like, sure, I can go as far as accept the possibility to think that Jesus was some flower-power dude with hippie quotes. But in the end, the Gospels and Paul's writings were peoples ideas and made up stories about it. Perhaps the New Testament doesn't contain one single quote from the original Jesus. Perhaps the human Jesus was a fish monger, and not a carpenter, and perhaps he spoke about how to qualify the best weed, but later the second and third generation of "Paulists" wanted a more religious figure, and rewrote the whole story. You see what I'm saying? It's just surprising to me, and reading the remainder of your reply I guess I'm still (even after all these years) angry and hostile toward Jesus, especially the Jesus I was taught about in the Baptist church, and the Jesus I read about in the Bible -- but maybe that's because I'm still subconsciously assuming the Jesus in the Bible really said the things the Bible says he said lol But how can you be angry and hostile towards a fictitious person? Lord Voldemort was evil, but I don't hate him. Harry Potter was a bit corny, but I don't love him, hate him, despise him, like him, or ... You see? The Jesus you are angry with doesn't exist, and never existed, so to write favorable about the leader of the Essene cult, whose name maybe was Bob, doesn't really make Jesus the fantasy guy look better. Harry Potter was most likely based upon some real person Rowlings met in real life. Maybe his name was Calvin Wedge, or Andrew Fowler, or ... so if I wrote Calvin or Andrew were good students and never caused any trouble, it doesn't mean Harry, the imaginary guy, suddenly did good in school. uh never mind. I just was surprised that a non-christian was saying complimentary things about a person who I believe was a lying scammer. When of course I don't know whether he was or not, or even if he was even a real person at all. No, you're talking about the other Jesus. Yes, he was a lying scam artist, but the Jesus who everyone mistook for a magician and said things like, "Wash your hands before you eat dinner," could have been a guy we all could have a beer with. I'm not sure I can blame Bob for Paul's spinning and advertising Bob as the Holy Christ of God. If anyone is to blame, it's the story makers, and the spin-doctors, who came after and made the regular wine drinking dude in sandals and just a few cool quotes to become this gigantic idea of embodiment of eternal power. I can understand your anger with Jesus, religion, Christianity, and so on, and no one will take that away from you. But one day, you might, just as I did, wake up and realize that it's more efficient to direct your anger to those who actually are responsible for the harm they're causing us. And that's the people who still think they got it all figured out and that animals can talk, fruits can make you a bad person, and iron stops God from moving, and all that other crap. The people who carry the torch are the ones who make up the stories and maintain them and force them down our throats. They need to turn around. Jesus, if he existed, is dead. He doesn't threaten me anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwc Posted February 18, 2009 Share Posted February 18, 2009 Why do people accept the basic outline of the story for old "jesus" (he was some carpenter, roving preacher/healer finally Roman/Jewish whipping boy) but toss all the rest? There's actually next to nothing in the stories that speak of him as a person so what people think they know is a lot like the nativity plays (mostly made up junk, meaning non-biblical, that fills in the gaps). So what's left? A bunch of silly parables and sayings that people think speak to the "true essence" of the guy. But even knowing that most of those were rip-offs from elsewhere they cling to the idea that he was still from back-woods preacher man that is worth their time in understanding. What's left? If there was a "jesus" he was born. He may have spoke. He may have eaten. He may have done some stuff. And he died because no one lives forever. But why accept an already fictional story as having lots of truth in it? If he took time to walk around maybe he was really rich? No need to work. Since he managed to avoid the evil Jews time and again maybe he had power? Not just dumb luck. Maybe he had followers because he was a teacher or maybe he was a patron? Maybe there are other ways of seeing this "humble" little man. A little man gets killed fast. A powerful man gets away with things. Too a point. mwc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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