Prysm Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 I've gotten this vibe from a few people that being a skeptic/agnostic/atheist/rational is such an unfeminine thing. Have any of you experienced that sort of attitude before? I've been told many times in my life that I'm "such a guy" for being more logical than emotional. Just wondering if any of you have encountered this, and if so, does it bother you? I'm new enough to this identity that I haven't really formed an opinion about this stereotype. I'm really interested in hearing any stories about being a female ex-c, if you have any. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Japedo Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 Confidence of knowing who you are can be intimidating to some. Don't let it bother you. I think being a strong women is a good thing, and its not being masculine. All of us have strengths and weakness I don't think it stays with any one sex. My house is run different then most, my husband is the nurturer and I'm the disciplinarian. It works for us, Thing is, I don't know my place, and I take comfort in that.. ETA: Stereo types are meant to be broken. Growing up in a fundy house I can tell you I am polar opposite then I was taught, I thank the gawds for it too! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
white_raven23 Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 Ah....good times!! Anyone who says anything to me that is based in sterotypical gender roles gets a mighty weird look from me. I get this more because of me just being ME than my beliefs specifically. Most people who feel safe and secure in their gender roles thinking don't even MAKE it to religion before they decide they are done talking to me, and they disapprove of what they DO know about me already anyway! The few who did make it to the religion question were already so shell-shocked by everything else, there wasn't much left to impact. I don't think in terms of myself as "being female" I have a highly developed androgenous personality and sense of interests. The fact of my physical parts is rather secondary to me actually. Wasn't raised with the "girls do this, or don't do that" crap. I had just as many He-Man figures as I did Barbie dolls. I was very tomboyish in a lot of ways, still am. A lot of folks assume that to be a pre-cursor for lesbianism, even some lesbians believe that...but I don't think it's true or I'd be attracted to other women. Men have trouble with me because I'll "hunt" them as much as they will hunt me. Fortunately there are plenty of guys out there whose masculinity is not threatened by that, lesser guys need no special consideration (though I do enjoy scaring the shit out of them). Folks locked in the mental prison of gender roles are not folks I befriend (as much to their own relief as mine). So what they think doesn't matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodsmoke Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 Y'know, the thought occurs I really need to start encouraging other people to think like this. That way I get all the smart, sassy women to myself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amethyst Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 Never heard of that before, and I'm a woman. There are actually several women's skeptical sites out there on the net, I believe one of them is called Skepchicks. Being an intelligent woman is not a bad thing! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HelloWorld Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 I have not received comments like this directly pertaining to being an ex-c but... -I have always been brutally honest. -I am extremely direct...and sometimes lack diplomacy. -I am always asking why. My sister has told me on several occasions that it drives her nuts that I always what to know "why this" and "why that". She has also knocked me for "analyzing everything". -I have been told that I can be very intimidating. -I tend to lack the degree of empathy tyically "expected" of females. -I'm loud and I like to argue. -I have also been called "too intellectual" by my mom and sister. All of that considered, I would not call myself "un-feminine". I have my girlie and mushy moments, but I would never consider myself mushy, gushy, girlie girl. I occasionally enjoy "dressing up" and "getting pretty". But, I get really uncomfortable around "pretty", preppy, "perfect", soft, gushy girls. I also hate dumb girls....and those girls who are so "sweet". I can count on one hand the number of female friends I have had over the course of my life. I like being around girls similar to myself. They are not that common, and most of those I have friended don't fit that card. Actually, my best friends fall into three classes: -Intellectual non-girlie females (smallest group) -Intellectual straight males (I cannot emphasize how much I hate tools and jocks.) (currently the largest group) -Refined, artistic, and intellectual gay men. (second smallest group...by far the largest group in high school) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
godlessgrrl Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 I have a blog dedicated to the intersections of atheism and feminism. (PM me if you want the link.) I started it because it seemed to me that male atheists outnumbered female ones, and I wanted to know why. I still do want to know why, and whether it's really that the numbers are skewed, or if it's just an impression, or if female atheists are just quieter, or what. The people who tend to have the biggest problem with me being female and an atheist are hardcore misogynist fundies (especially male ones). They seem to take my atheism as a loathsome betrayal of my femininity and a depraved total rejection of the "proper" gender role ordained for me by their god. Which it is, in large part. The proper godly role for me in Xianity was to be an upright, submissive, modest wife, an accessory and "helper" to my godly Xian husband; my purpose in life was to serve god by serving my man, providing him with a supportive, loving home and popping out as many good little Xian babies as god saw fit to give me. To which I say: fuck that shit, gramma. I am more than a vessel for some godly man's seed, fuckyouverymuch. For me, rejecting Xianity was crucial to developing a more healthy gender role for myself. Winding up as an atheist is probably partly an offshoot of that, as so many religions have such unhealthy, degrading options for women. I reject them all. Going by cultural gender roles, logic, reason, skepticism and intellect are considered "masculine" things. Emotional and social matters, by contrast, are "feminine". Religion is a very emotional and social thing, atheism is associated with rationalism and intellect; hence the perception that religion is feminine and atheism is masculine makes some sense. For people who buy into traditional gender roles, encountering a woman who doesn't fit the feminine mold can be a little disconcerting. Folks don't quite know what to do with us independent-minded, freethinking, smart uppity chicks. Anyhoo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
white_raven23 Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 I reject being a babymachine too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jedah Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 vibe from a few people that being a skeptic/agnostic/atheist/rational is such an unfeminine thing. The people telling you this are clueless. Being one of the few women who manage to break free from the chains of bullshit is hot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OpheliaGinger Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 It's just a stereotype perpetuated by chauvinistic religious men. I would like to say that I am more logical then emotional but I am subject to mood swings due to hormonal changes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prysm Posted February 13, 2009 Author Share Posted February 13, 2009 I should probably clarify... I don't feel bad about being who I am, and I don't see myself as any less of a female for my non-traditional personality. I, also, have rejected being a babymachine, and I held firm to that in the face of pastors, in-laws, and our premarital coach couple who insisted that to be a good youth pastor's wife I needed to breed breed BREED! (Literally, they told us that "The Muslims are winning the war in the bedroom"! My womb is now a barracks?) But now, outside of the faith, I still feel a bit out of place. For instance, our atheist meetup group had about a 1:5 ratio. I've always had a hard time finding worthwhile female friendships, and the ones I do form are with admittedly weak-minded girls. We just accept our differences and develop an understanding based on our commonalities. I guess I thought that the weird glazed look that was so pervasive at any xtian woman's event was unique to the xtian faith, yet I still can't seem to find any women like me. All the stats show atheists as generally male. I'm used to male friendships, but I've always hoped to find some similar qualities in a female friend. So, do any of you actually have friendships with other women of a similar personality? If so, how the hell did that happen? Maybe it's just the curse of living in Nebraska. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
♦ Fuego ♦ Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 Have you ever visited Laci Green's YouTube channel? (http://www.youtube.com/user/gogreen18) She is confident, articulate, and a very lovely young woman. Oh, and overtly atheist. This is the name of the video that introduced me to her: "Why Atheists Care About YOUR Religion" I'd say she is living proof that having a good mind and an assertive manner doesn't detract from her femininity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tabula Rasa Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 . Men have trouble with me because I'll "hunt" them as much as they will hunt me. Fortunately there are plenty of guys out there whose masculinity is not threatened by that, lesser guys need no special consideration (though I do enjoy scaring the shit out of them). If only there were more women like you whiteraven! A lot of us guys aren't good at "hunting" and really wish more women hunted us instead. Calling all big bad she-wolves, calling all big bad she-wolves.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amethyst Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 So, do any of you actually have friendships with other women of a similar personality? If so, how the hell did that happen? Maybe it's just the curse of living in Nebraska. My best friend irl is atheist and an Ex-Christian too. I know her through Starfleet, actually. I have noticed that female geeks have a tendency to be more open minded than female non-geeks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodsmoke Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 . Men have trouble with me because I'll "hunt" them as much as they will hunt me. Fortunately there are plenty of guys out there whose masculinity is not threatened by that, lesser guys need no special consideration (though I do enjoy scaring the shit out of them). If only there were more women like you whiteraven! A lot of us guys aren't good at "hunting" and really wish more women hunted us instead. Calling all big bad she-wolves, calling all big bad she-wolves.. Seriously. I'm all about being egalitarian, let's spread the rejection around a little. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neon Genesis Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 Speaking of female atheists, has anyone read the works of Ayaan Hirsi Ali? I keep meaning to read her books sometime but I don't know much about her other than that she's an ex-Muslim atheist but she doesn't seem to get as much attention as popular male atheists like Dawkins and Hitchens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodsmoke Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 There's also the fact, despite the perceived novelty of being a female atheist, an ex-Muslim simply doesn't have as much relevance in western culture as ex-Christians like Dawkins and Hitchens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HelloWorld Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 Just to add another bit to the discussion. While I do not think that there should be any enforced gender roles, I do think that there are some real differences between men and women. I am of the opinion that more men than women tend to use predominantly logic and reason when relating to the world, processing the world, and making decision in the world. I also think, however, that this differences is augmented by centuries of repression and gender role indoctrination. I think this is why you see fewer women than men admitting atheism or agnosticism. This is just my opinion...I am not really promoting it as much as sharing it. I freely admit I could be completely off my rocker. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
godlessgrrl Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 I've seen Hirsi Ali interviewed. I have one of her books on the nightstand, next in line after Plato. There are some awesome female atheists out there, but they don't seem to have the same rock star status as the guys do. I mean the "Four Horsemen" are all guys; you hear plenty of people vilify Dawkins, but nobody seems to attack, say, Julia Sweeney. (Although mention Madalyn Murray O'Hair and they'll have a conniption fit.) Maybe I'll do a series of blog posts with bios of contemporary female atheists. Hmmm..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyle Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 Have you ever visited Laci Green's YouTube channel? (http://www.youtube.com/user/gogreen18)She is confident, articulate, and a very lovely young woman. Oh, and overtly atheist. This is the name of the video that introduced me to her: "Why Atheists Care About YOUR Religion" I'd say she is living proof that having a good mind and an assertive manner doesn't detract from her femininity. Wow. I mean...uh...she has some great points. In all seriousness. She is doing a great job with those rants of hers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jedah Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 http://www.youtube.com/user/gogreen18 Oh look, TheAmazingAtheist grew boobs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClaraOlive Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 I think it's an insult to refer to intelligent women as "un-girly". Intelligence IS a feminine trait, just as much as it is a masculine one. By labeling stupid women as more feminine, we're really just hurting ourselves. What I have noticed is that it seems that a lot more men have come forward to say that their deconversion was one of the main contributors to ending their marriage (and on a non-religious subject, that a desire not to have children was also an issue). Are there any other women here who deconverted and then got divorced? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pitchu Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 I think one has to live a long life to gather very many atheist women friends. I've had two, but most of my women friends hold some sort of god-concept, however vague and unimportant "god" is to them. I'm generally more interested in a woman's quirkiness than her religious orientation. I'll befriend her for her singular approach to thinking and acting, her odd (preferably sardonic) sense of humor, her off-beat behavior and her vibrancy. These things are more important to me, in a friendship, than that she be an atheist. Also, these women are not only comfortable with my atheism, they're kinda smug about the fact that they have their very own atheist friend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
godlessgrrl Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 Are there any other women here who deconverted and then got divorced? Sort of. I started the process of deconversion when I was about 25 or so. I was married to my first husband at the time. My deconversion and divorce were certainly linked, but it's tricky to say whether or not either one led to the other. It's more like the collapse of my marriage fed both the deconversion and eventual divorce. But I probably couldn't have divorced if I hadn't at least partly deconverted. I had a very emotionally barren marriage to a very neglectful, indifferent husband. We were both devout believers at the time, however, so there was a strong push, both from external pressure and from internal conviction, that we had to stay together at all costs because that was what God wanted and what the Bible said we should do. So I stayed and worked alone on a terrible, broken marriage that never should've happened in the first place. I got to a point where I was so miserable that I felt the only options left were suicide, homicide, or divorce - which was a crucial point in my deconversion, because I realized that a deity that would condemn anyone to a lifetime of misery like that was a really shitty deity. I ditched the deity (or at least went into "seeker" mode, anyway) and got a divorce. But I don't look at it like my deconversion caused my divorce. It's more like my need for sanity compelled the divorce, while simultaneously pushing my deconversion along nicely. Others' mileage may vary, of course. I also think that it insults women to put "intelligence" or "intellect" in strictly the "masculine" category. But that's where it's landed, as far as gender constructs go. I think it worth the effort to nudge intelligence into the realm of the gender neutral, along with a lot of other traditional gender attributes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prysm Posted February 13, 2009 Author Share Posted February 13, 2009 I also think that it insults women to put "intelligence" or "intellect" in strictly the "masculine" category. But that's where it's landed, as far as gender constructs go. I think it worth the effort to nudge intelligence into the realm of the gender neutral, along with a lot of other traditional gender attributes. I agree that this is an insult, but it seems that we still need to convince the other ladies of this. I don't feel any less feminine for my intellect, but it is consistently other women who label me as masculine. I'm all for changing attitudes and assumptions, but our own gender isn't really helping. I just wondered what the odds were of finding a friendship of equals. I'm not expecting to find an atheist friend necessarily, but something like what pitchu described would be nice. It's just frustrating that I never seem to have difficulty finding male friendships of a worthy caliber, but female friends of equal quality are just so rare. Besides, as a married woman I have a greater drive to find same-gender friends, even though my husband is incredibly confident in our relationships and doesn't question my fidelity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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