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Goodbye Jesus

Moral Parasites


MathGeek

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Maybe they do. What makes it stick then? The Greeks failed time and time again, becoming dictated.

Just like the Church, Communism, Fascism, Democracy of different kinds, Empires, Dictators, Kingdoms... nothing is forever. The longest lasting empires were the Egyptian and the Chinese, so if the proof is in the pudding, considering the ruler as God seems to work best.

 

Greek philosophy was great, until it was done.

Done? We're living it, breathing it, and talking about it right now. It's still valid and still make impact on modern Philosophy. It's like saying no one listens to Classical Music anymore.

 

Maybe the Greeks of ole' failed to establish peace in Rome because the One True God knew they were seeking other Gods. Maybe thats why He sent Jesus to stir the pot up a bit? :grin:

They did have peace for quite some time. Pax Romana wasn't just a buzzword. Sure, they had insurgence, but in big parts it was progress until the inbreed of the rules became a genetic problem, and a truckload of other issues too. But philosophy wasn't really the reason for the fall of Rome.

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Near the time of Christ, Rome became an Empire again. If Jesus's supposed ministry was timed around 300bc then I would be more apt to agree. But it wasn't.

Okay, maybe Jesus wasn't influenced by Greek Philosophy, but then, when Jesus supposedly spoke about the Golden Rule, how can we be sure it was a later redaction, added by the Hellenistic Jews led by Paul?

 

And I'm not sure why Jesus had to live at the time of Plato to be influenced by Plato's writings? Aren't you influenced by the Bible? That was written 2,000 years ago. So with your mode of argument, you can't be Christian or influenced by the writings in the Gospels since you didn't live 2,000 years ago.

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Maybe that lies the confusion between Paul and Jesus; and the thousands of sects of Christianity. Different veiws.

You mean God is divided? Or just the followers are divided how to understand God? Doesn't the former imply a mutable God, and the latter unclear understanding of God and allow multiplicity and universal inclusion of beliefs?

 

Regarding the Hellenistic Judaism in Judea before Jesus and influence of Philo, and how it most likely got marginalized around 70 AD by a probable incorporation into Paul's Christianity, look at this article from Wiki: Hellenistic Judaism.

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And I'm not sure why Jesus had to live at the time of Plato to be influenced by Plato's writings? Aren't you influenced by the Bible? That was written 2,000 years ago. So with your mode of argument, you can't be Christian or influenced by the writings in the Gospels since you didn't live 2,000 years ago.

 

I can if it is flourished content where I live. I am saying that at the time of Christ; the content and influence weren't as strong. I would especially assume not in a Jewish settlement. Orthodox Jews and Hellenistic Jews were not agreeing about the time of Christ. From the wiki reference you gave me.

 

The people, who did not want to continue to be governed by a corrupt and Hellenized dynasty, appealed to Rome for intervention, leading to a total Roman conquest and annexation of the country, see Iudaea province.

 

Nevertheless, the cultural issues remained unresolved. The main issue separating the Hellenistic and orthodox Jews was the application of biblical laws in a Hellenistic (melting pot) culture.[3

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most religious people would admit that morals can be deduced without the bible. :Doh:

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YoYO:

Did they not have Gods; Did their Gods influence their works?

 

EXACTLY how does god influence anyone's works or ethics? and how do you know which god is god?

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most religious people would admit that morals can be deduced without the bible. :Doh:

 

Then the Bible is not indispensible.

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And I'm not sure why Jesus had to live at the time of Plato to be influenced by Plato's writings? Aren't you influenced by the Bible? That was written 2,000 years ago. So with your mode of argument, you can't be Christian or influenced by the writings in the Gospels since you didn't live 2,000 years ago.

 

I can if it is flourished content where I live. I am saying that at the time of Christ; the content and influence weren't as strong. I would especially assume not in a Jewish settlement. Orthodox Jews and Hellenistic Jews were not agreeing about the time of Christ. From the wiki reference you gave me.

Not even Jerusalem? One of the core cities for travel and trade between the northern part of Roman empire and the southern? Wasn't Jerusalem the place where the 500 started to speak in tongues during the Pentecost? Where people and travelers from "all the world" were represented and heard "their own language spoken?" Well, I guess not then. They probably took a longer route around Israel when shipping animals and jewels and what-nots to and from Egypt. Israel, just a small settlement with a few farmers and a handful of fishermen. Totally disconnected from history, culture, and travelers.

 

And are you telling me that the disagreement of Jesus birth between them is the evidence Jesus wasn't influenced by Greek ideas? That's a very strange argument.

 

Philo from Alexandria is evidence for the influence, and he was born around the same time as Jesus. He wrote books before Paul was converted. He was a student before the disciples met Jesus. And you're telling me they weren't influenced? What about the use of the word "Logos" in John's Gospel. Do you claim it has nothing to do with how Philo or Aristotle used it? Or the number of the fish in one of the Gospels matches a magical numbers by the Pythagoreans in relation to circles? Nothing you say. And yet the evidence is there.

 

Well, too sad you don't see it. I find it to be very clear and obvious.

 

The people, who did not want to continue to be governed by a corrupt and Hellenized dynasty, appealed to Rome for intervention, leading to a total Roman conquest and annexation of the country, see Iudaea province.

Yes, but being influenced by ideas is not just removed by a dictum. Things see can be un-seen. Things thought can't be un-thought. People were influenced, the same way people are today. We usually don't even notice it. Commercials, media, chatting with friends and neighbors, we change our ideas, we adopt, adjust, think different, it's just the way it is.

 

Nevertheless, the cultural issues remained unresolved. The main issue separating the Hellenistic and orthodox Jews was the application of biblical laws in a Hellenistic (melting pot) culture.[3

Was Jesus an Orthodox Jew? Wasn't that the whole idea that Jesus brought a new light and understanding of God to the Jews? A new angle, a new approach, a new insight? And now you're denying it by putting him in the orthodox Jew category?

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most religious people would admit that morals can be deduced without the bible.

I sure hope so, but it rarely looks that way from the conversations we have on this board. :HaHa: Even though I think both you, Yoyo, and End3 are fairly decent people, and in meat-life we'd probably have no problems sitting at the bar heaving some good beers.

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Okay, maybe Jesus wasn't influenced by Greek Philosophy, but then, when Jesus supposedly spoke about the Golden Rule, how can we be sure it was a later redaction, added by the Hellenistic Jews led by Paul?

 

Judaism already had the golden rule.

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Judaism already had the golden rule.

 

And these guys already had the golden rule too:

 

"Do not to your neighbor what you would take ill from him." (Pittacus)[3]

"Avoid doing what you would blame others for doing." (Thales)[4]

"What you wish your neighbors to be to you, such be also to them." (Sextus the Pythagorean)[5]

"Do not do to others what would anger you if done to you by others." (Isocrates)[6]

"What thou avoidest suffering thyself seek not to impose on others." (Epictetus)[7]

"It is impossible to live a pleasant life without living wisely and well and justly (agreeing 'neither to harm nor be harmed'[8]),

and it is impossible to live wisely and well and justly without living a pleasant life." (Epicurus)[9]

You see how similar they are even in phrasing? Much closer to the Jesus version than the Juda version.

 

And here's the Juda version:

You shall not take vengeance or bear a grudge against your countrymen. Love your fellow as yourself: I am the LORD. ”

 

— Leviticus 19:18[30]

“ The stranger who resides with you shall be to you as one of your citizens; you shall love him as yourself, for you were strangers in the land of Egypt: I the LORD am your God. ”

 

— Leviticus 19:34[30], the "Great Commandment"

 

The Sage Hillel formulated the Golden Rule in order to illustrate the underlying principles of Jewish moral law:[31]

 

That which is hateful to you, do not do to your fellow. That is the whole Torah; the rest is the explanation; go and learn.[32]

 

Which ones do you feel are more closely resembling the Gospel version?

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most religious people would admit that morals can be deduced without the bible.

I sure hope so, but it rarely looks that way from the conversations we have on this board. :HaHa: Even though I think both you, Yoyo, and End3 are fairly decent people, and in meat-life we'd probably have no problems sitting at the bar heaving some good beers.

 

:woohoo:

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Judaism already had the golden rule.

 

And these guys already had the golden rule too:

 

"Do not to your neighbor what you would take ill from him." (Pittacus)[3]

"Avoid doing what you would blame others for doing." (Thales)[4]

"What you wish your neighbors to be to you, such be also to them." (Sextus the Pythagorean)[5]

"Do not do to others what would anger you if done to you by others." (Isocrates)[6]

"What thou avoidest suffering thyself seek not to impose on others." (Epictetus)[7]

"It is impossible to live a pleasant life without living wisely and well and justly (agreeing 'neither to harm nor be harmed'[8]),

and it is impossible to live wisely and well and justly without living a pleasant life." (Epicurus)[9]

You see how similar they are even in phrasing? Much closer to the Jesus version than the Juda version.

 

Freaky. I just read that. Wiki? Are you following me Hans? :Hmm:

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most religious people would admit that morals can be deduced without the bible.

I sure hope so, but it rarely looks that way from the conversations we have on this board. :HaHa: Even though I think both you, Yoyo, and End3 are fairly decent people, and in meat-life we'd probably have no problems sitting at the bar heaving some good beers.

 

My religion doesn't allow me to drink :yelrotflmao: yeah, good thing I am not legalistic.... :68:

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Freaky. I just read that. Wiki? Are you following me Hans? :Hmm:

Muahaha... Yes... I planted a remote control virus when you weren't looking!

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Was Jesus an Orthodox Jew? Wasn't that the whole idea that Jesus brought a new light and understanding of God to the Jews? A new angle, a new approach, a new insight? And now you're denying it by putting him in the orthodox Jew category?

 

That's a good point Hans. But does it make Christianity bogus?

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My religion doesn't allow me to drink :yelrotflmao: yeah, good thing I am not legalistic.... :68:

Your religion? You're a Muslim or Mormon? Christianity doesn't forbid drinking, you know that right? Paul even recommended it, and it's red wine that turns to Jesus's blood, not red grape juice. And the miracle with water to wine, it wasn't water to rootbeer.

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The Bible wasn't written and/or translated to Christianese, but to Greek. Go figure. Maybe they totally killed every Greek, but somehow magically knew the Greek language, just for the heck of it?

 

Some of the mistakes in the Gospels (if I recall correctly, MWC you can get me straight) were made based on mistranslations of the Torah to Greek. Like the "virgin" thing for instance. Which shows that the writers were familiar with the Greek translation of the Torah, and not Arameic or Hebrew. I also think (but this one I'm very unsure of) that during the time of Jesus himself, the Torah was used in Greek and not Hebrew. MWC, do you know anything about this part and can fill in on the different aspects?

There are others that are probably much better versed in this aspect of things than I am but I can say that the "virgin" thing is from the prophets and not the Torah (aka the Pentateuch) so it becomes beside the point. :)

 

I haven't been following your discussion. What are you asking exactly? I think the gospels were written quite a bit after the time of "jesus" which kind of affects my answer. But if I'm understanding this then the gospel authors appeared to have used the LXX (a Greek translation...there were a few) rather than the MSS (the Hebrew) to base their "prophecy" on.

 

mwc

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Was Jesus an Orthodox Jew? Wasn't that the whole idea that Jesus brought a new light and understanding of God to the Jews? A new angle, a new approach, a new insight? And now you're denying it by putting him in the orthodox Jew category?

 

That's a good point Hans. But does it make Christianity bogus?

No, that's not my argument at all. My argument is actually that Christianity is a composition of other philosophies and beliefs. My point is that Philosophy, without the thought and reasoning that God must be in the mix, can lead to the same moral code as any religion you provide, including Christianity. Morality does not grow out of religion, but out of thought and reason. If a religion borrows ideas, or even spend time doing the real work of thinking, they can arrive to the same ideas, with or without God in the formula.

 

There must be a reason to why two thirds of the world can live without totally annihilating each other, and yet not be Christians. Or let me rephrase that: currently only 1/3 of the world is Christian, and yet the other part is capable of living, striving, progressing, creating society, culture, entertainment, love, respect, law, and art. If Christianity was a requirement for those things to exist, then the world would show it to be the case, but it doesn't. And the reason is, we can be moral without the consideration of God. But if you personally are wired in such a way that there's no way you can behave without a belief in God, well then, so be it, you're that kind of person, but obviously from observation of the real world, people are capable of doing it without your particular God, or even in some cases without God overall.

 

Does the regular Chinese man, or Hindu man, or Buddhist person in Japan, run around fornicating, raping, murdering, and stealing everything he puts his hands on? If not, how, if they never heard about Jesus? If your answer is that God planted morality in them, well then, there you have it, even the unbeliever have morality planted in them. The only difference is that I believe my morality is planted in a different way than you, but that is of course a different question.

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There are others that are probably much better versed in this aspect of things than I am but I can say that the "virgin" thing is from the prophets and not the Torah (aka the Pentateuch) so it becomes beside the point. :)

Ah, well you see, those things are a bit blurry and confused for me. :)

 

I haven't been following your discussion. What are you asking exactly? I think the gospels were written quite a bit after the time of "jesus" which kind of affects my answer. But if I'm understanding this then the gospel authors appeared to have used the LXX (a Greek translation...there were a few) rather than the MSS (the Hebrew) to base their "prophecy" on.

My question is about if Jesus read the scriptures (Torah, prophets, poets, etc) in Greek, Hebrew, or Arameic? Our discussion is currently a bit about how much (or little) Jesus could have been influenced by Greek thought and philosophy. It's obvious that the Jews living outside Israel were, looking at Philo and others, but Israel was also influenced a few hundred years before Jesus, and the question is if Jerusalem, and the teachings, and the culture, could have been to some degree Hellenized already, and Jesus thoughts (like the Golden Rule) might have been borrowed (even unconsciously) from the Greeks.

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No, that's not my argument at all

 

I was getting back to the topic :phew: I would suggest that Jesus/ His followers converted the Greeks/Roman Empire into monotheism; making Christianity a pivotal point in structuring all the Greek philosophy? Past Greek culture included the Delphic oracle. Right?

 

 

 

 

Does the regular Chinese man, or Hindu man, or Buddhist person in Japan, run around fornicating, raping, murdering, and stealing everything he puts his hands on? If not, how, if they never heard about Jesus? If your answer is that God planted morality in them, well then, there you have it, even the unbeliever have morality planted in them. The only difference is that I believe my morality is planted in a different way than you, but that is of course a different question.

 

Different strokes for different folks I guess. Didn't some of Asia go through Hellenization as well?

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I guess the key for my view here is that Judaism believed in One God. The Greeks did not. (I do wonder, since into thought here, if that's where the whole trinity; Father, Son, Holy Spirit came from). :scratch: Makes sense. Please Rome, and Christianity will flourish. Christianity even though intertwined with Greek philosophy, was not Greek philosophy in actuality. It was Christianity. :phew: With me?

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I was getting back to the topic :phew: I would suggest that Jesus/ His followers converted the Greeks/Roman Empire into monotheism; making Christianity a pivotal point in structuring all the Greek philosophy? Past Greek culture included the Delphic oracle. Right?

Well, I think we're at the point where I'm sure at all. The previous points I'm fairly certain on, but exactly what Christianity managed to provide which the old religions didn't, I'm not sure I can answer. I heard one something at one lecture about it, but it's lost in my memory. I think the new thing with Christianity was the personal part of it, that it wasn't some gods in some distant space doing their things, but that it was more close to the person, and at the same time played hard on the Hero myth which probably was just as popular then as it is today. People in general like their heroes, and the Jesus story definitely got some of the Hero stuff mixed in. There are a lot of similarities between Jesus and Superman, and it's not accidental.

 

Most hero stories are based on the idea of supererogatory acts beyond duty and virtue. It's more than just doing good, but doing more than good, like the firemen risking his life saving the kid in a burning building.

 

Different strokes for different folks I guess. Didn't some of Asia go through Hellenization as well?

That I don't know. Confucianism and Taoism was before Greek philosophy (I think), and yet both of them contain the concept of the Golden Rule.

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I guess the key for my view here is that Judaism believed in One God. The Greeks did not. (I do wonder, since into thought here, if that's where the whole trinity; Father, Son, Holy Spirit came from). :scratch: Makes sense. Please Rome, and Christianity will flourish. Christianity even though intertwined with Greek philosophy, was not Greek philosophy in actuality. It was Christianity. :phew: With me?

Just like Southern Baptists aren't real Christians?

 

It's all intertwined. I don't see it as a line, or chain of dependency, but rather like large dots of different colors overlapping and having influence, or being influenced from many different views.

 

You see, I'm not saying Christianity is 100% Greek philosophy, or vice versa, but that Greek philosophy is definitely part of what Christianity contains, as well as many other religions, political views, or ideologies. My personal opinion is that Christianity ruined it, not improved it, but that's my opinion.

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Different strokes for different folks I guess. Didn't some of Asia go through Hellenization as well?

 

That I don't know.

 

Supposedly, they did.

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