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Guest Zoe Grace

"You choose to go to hell"

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Guest Zoe Grace

I've heard many christians, including the one I spoke with at length tonight, say: "You choose to go to hell." NO YOU DO NOT.

 

Why not?

 

Because who does or doesn't go to hell according to christians is not about living a moral decent life. It's not about being a good person. It's about choosing the correct set of myths to follow and belief is not a choice.

 

You dont' have the free will to belief any way you want.

 

If your mind cannot wrap around a concept you can't believe in it.

 

You can give me all kinds of arguments as to why Santa Claus exists and I'm never going to believe it. I cannot choose to believe in Santa Claus.

 

Similarly I cannot choose to believe in other things I find illogical, such as Adam and Eve, Noah's Ark, the tower of babel, Jesus etc. These things make no more sense to me than anyone else's set of mythology.

 

The Christian says: "You go to hell because you choose to go to hell. You choose to reject what is offered freely to you, the gift of salvation, you choose to ignore and not acknowledge the gift and that is wrong."

 

WE DON'T BELIEVE THE GIFT EXISTS! We aren't snubbing our nose at your deity's precious gift. We don't believe your god exists to give us a gift. We've seen no solid proof that shows your god is THE GOD.

 

WE LACK BELIEF. Why would any loving god...or even any just god, punish someone for what they don't believe?

 

Sure, I could TRY to believe it. I could TRY to ignore all the doubts I always had. I could try very hard. But then I would be back in the same old shit...the constant fear of "losing my salvation" the constant fear of hell and the rapture and demons and all sorts of things "out to get me." Is that really worth it, on the very off chance that your myths out of all the other myths just happen to be true?

 

Am I expecting too much to expect that a loving deity would know the hell I've already been through with that particular belief system?

 

Why on earth would I waste my time TRYING to believe something I DON'T believe in order to not "CHOOSE" hell.

 

People who believe this are sick. People who try to perpetuate this belief...visit mental torture on others and should be ashamed.

 

It's very difficult to have this discussion with someone without it opening up some past wounds.

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I used your argument on a Christian forum one time. It was universally ignored. I explained to them that the “Plan of Salvation” was unfair because it assumed that I had the ability believe in their faith. I don’t! No matter how much I wanted to believe in the Christianity, my mind refused to believe it could even be possible.

 

The few people who did respond posted just what I expected.

 

1) I must be lying.

 

That about what I expected. When in doubt, blame the victim.

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Because who does or doesn't go to hell according to christians is not about living a moral decent life. It's not about being a good person. It's about choosing the correct set of myths to follow and belief is not a choice.

 

You dont' have the free will to belief any way you want.

 

If your mind cannot wrap around a concept you can't believe in it.

 

Exactly, but brainwashed Christians will never understand that.

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Something that I can't ever wrap my mind around is that an all powerful deity...we are talking ONE being here...is intimately concerned with the invidivual actions of every single living breathing person.

 

That would be like me concerning myself with every ant on the planet. The whole thing is just too bizarre and strikes me as obviously human made...it's too "self-important" to be empirically true.

 

Exactly. If I'd created the universe, I'd spend the rest of eternity on vacation.

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Wow Zoe, that was well put! !

 

Thanks for that terrific point!

 

Bongo

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You dont' have the free will to belief any way you want.

Actually I think there is sort of a problem with this argument. People can believe anything they want, as long as they "have faith". Isn't that how most of us became Christians in the first place? So I think people can choose to believe whatever they want. It sounds like what you are saying is that people who think critically can't choose to believe anything they want because faith is no substitute for evidence. And on that I totally agree.

 

The Christian argument is we have a choice between Jesus and hell. But what if we decline to choose? Is that in itself a choice, or is that exercising our free will to not make choices in the first place? But lets say that's not an option. If it's not an option, then aren't we being forced to make a choice against our will? Do we have free will in that case? Lets say a rapist breaks into a woman's house and gives her a choice of a.) being brutally raped, or b.) having her throat sliced open. Would that defense hold up in any court of law? "You're Honor, my client did not rape this women, she chose to have sex with him of her own free will!" NO! But according to Christian reasoning on choices, she DID choose to be raped of her own free will, or she did chose to be murdered. Sorry, but just because you call the rapist "loving" doesn't make him any less of a rapist, and it doesn't make rape right. It's the same thing with a bully which is basically what God is.... a bully who forces a kid to choose between giving him is lunch money or being beat up is still a bully even if you call him loving :nono:

 

Anyway in my opinion telling us we "choose" hell is just ridiculous. We're being forced there by a "loving" bully for not choosing to have faith and believe the absurd :Wendywhatever:

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Could you CHOOSE to believe in santa claus, TRULY REALLY believe santa claus was real if you REALLY REALLY wanted to?

Not now, because I think critically. Which is the same reason I don't believe in God. Why is it that Christians don't believe in Santa Claus, but they do believe in God? Because they choose to through faith. They know there's no physical evidence that he exists, but they believe anyway. Because they choose to. Right?

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Xianity fails just on the fact that everyone is an infidel. EVERYONE IS AN INFIDEL. Every religionist makes naked assertions in defending thier beliefs in thier gods and the invented bribes and threats that go with thier mythologies.

 

Religion is an invented solution to an invented problem. Thats because it is a very lousy guess as to why things are the way they are and why we are the way we are.

 

I can use the same empty threats and bribes to defend any absurd and untestable belief system. A god really expects us to have confidence in an alleged god given message and an alleged god given solution to sufferening based SOLEY on naked assertions/circular logic that uses empty threats and bribes as its only hook without really proving it is true and truly has merit? Puh-leeezzz!

 

A thing can only have merit to humans if it can be demonstrated to enable us to reduce suffering as well as promote life and freedom. WANTING LONG LIFE FREEDOM AND HAPPINESS is something inherent in us all and a real creator god would respect that if it created us with those traits. Those traits are self evident and so religion is debunked just on those self evident attributes of the human animal. Based on these self evident things a loving personal god would base its relationship with us on those things that are inherent in us. Cut and dry.

 

Anyone who can't realize this has been brainwashed to overlook these self evident things.

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One thing about it. You have got to give the writers of the bible credit. They managed to supply their minions with a ready-made answer for everything. When your mind is engulfed by the dogma, you automatically have a built-in response that no amount of reasoning can penetrate. Here is the christian's built in reponse for unbelief:

 

"You are unable to believe because you have set yourself up as your own god. You are unwilling to bow before the creator because you insist on going your own way and you refuse to acknowledge the fact that you are sinful. You have allowed yourself to be deceived by the Father of All Lies. Go ahead. But in the end you will face the judgement of a holy and righteous God and pay the penalty for your error through all eternity"

 

There can be no other explanation. The inability to believe certainly cannot be because the Bible contradicts itself, or because it violates your personal intrinsic beliefs, or because it isn't consistent with known history, or because science has shown it to be faulty.

 

Like I've said before, the dudes who wrote the bible may have thought that the world was flat, but they sure as hell understood the human psyche.

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I find myself getting more and more irritated by the claim that you choose to go to hell. I tend to argue that if I commit a crime, I do not arrest myself. I do not put myself on trial. I do not judge myself . I do not sentence myself and I do not throw myself into jail.

 

I find that argument brings up a lot of side tracking and slithering around the issue by Christians.

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Doesn't the Bible say that nobody comes to the father unless the father draws them? If that is so, how does anyone have a choice, unless god is drawing them, which clearly he does not draw everyone. If he did, it wouldn't also say in the bible that he has created some as vessels of righteousness and others as vessels of wrath. So even the bible says that believing is not a choice. We also know from the bible that god plays favorites, since according to their own book for thousands of years he only preferred on small group of people out of all others in the world.

 

I think people in most religions tend to feel that because they were saturated with their religion to the point that they feel it makes sense and is worthy of a 2nd, 3rd and 4th look; that everyone has that same level of saturation and feels that same level of it making sense. From what I have read of Islam, they also have this same belief, that all others are just denying allah and mohammed.

 

 

I agree. Even when I was a brainwashed Christian this always perplexed me. If God already has you selected then why in the hell does anyone else even need to try? If we are all destined for hell anyway then fuck it...

It is like somekind of sadistic cosmic Hindu caste system.

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Christians tell us that the damned "choose Hell" because that is the only way they can exonerate their god from blame. It also assuages the guilt they must feel for believing such a horrible thing

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Isn't there something in the NT about the pot not questioning the potter, 'Why have you made me thus?' I got the impression that god picks who he wants to give faith to, and damns those to unbelief against their will (or at least w/out consulting them).

 

So which is it? Does god create us to be faithful/unfaithful, or is it our choice? :shrug:

 

And at any rate, no one chooses hell. Even if you're Pol Pot, no one wants to burn in hell for all eternity. God throws everyone in hell against their will, no matter how evil they are.

 

Xtians, don't fool yourselves. To say 'you chose it' is just a snide, hypocritical way of saying 'you deserve it'. :ugh:

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Haha, just from this discussion alone, it shows the insanity of Christianity. I mean, just listen to their arguments and what they talk about in order to "preach the good news." How it's good news, I'll never know.

 

Christian: Adam and Eve were deceived by the serpent from the tree of knowledge.

 

Okay, if God knew that these two were going to be deceived from the tree of knowledge and the serpent. Why the hell would he put that tree of knowledge in the garden? Did he think that these two wouldn't eventually notice? Because they were deceived, they were thrown out of the garden? Okay!

 

Didn't God also say that they would die if they ate from the tree of knowledge? He already lied to them once! They didn't die. What kind of crap is that?

 

Then there's the Noah's flood myth, which is similar to Manu and the fish or the one about Utnapishtim. Just how can this be literal?

 

And ever since that, God has "favoured" the Israelites, blah blah blah...commanded people to kill opposing civilians. Blah blah blah. He just contradicts himself, but believers are told not to question him...cause everything he does is "just." Hmm, that's like a person being brainwashed to be a criminal and no matter how unjust his "keeper" is, he will not question him. How asinine.

 

Let's see, splitting the sea in half, talking donkey, a big muscular man named Samson who was the strongest of them all!....David humping Bathseba....then God killing off their baby. A King getting eaten alive from the inside by flesh eating bugs or whatever. Daniel in the Lion's Den...and his friends in a furnace. Jonah inside the belly of a big fish for three nights. Yeah, it's all pretty literal so far.

 

But then, Christians will always "interpret" inconclusive sentences so that it fits their explanations. They'll be like, "Oh, that doesn't mean that...but it means THIS." Where is the source? Then you have a dozen others within the same faith in disagreement with the interpretation, so now they battle each other as denominations. All over a freakin' book of myths.

 

The only conclusion these Christians can make about God not talking directly with people or having all those extraordinary things happening like in the OT is -- JESUS. Jesus turned water to wine, walked on water and other hocus pocus. Okay, how nice.

 

Then, it's back to the whole "I'm God, I'll throw you in Hell for not believing in my Son...but I sent him down to die for you so that you can all feel my love. Yeah, I love you all, but the cost of your sins is eternal punishment in Hell. Uh wait...yeah, I'm right and you're wrong...so obey! I made Adam and Eve, but they made a mistake...err, even though I made the mistake of getting them to sin...yet I gave them free will to choose to follow me or the devil, but they didn't know and ate off the tree of knowledge, yet I blame them! Someone needs to take the blame! Wait, they didn't have free will...I pre-destined them to do what they did. Hmm, I confuse myself...but in the future, there will be Christians who will defend me and my word and interpret it so that it doesn't contradict itself. Oh man, I'm too stressed from working six days. I don't want to leave these people alone, I will monitor them 24/7...but time is eternal here where I am. I also made these women attractive, but you men cannot touch them! That's a sin! You lied? That's a sin! This and that is a sin too! You heathens! Oh wait, I almost forgot...I started all of this, blame Satan! Yeah, it's not like I'm alone either...I have two others with me. I watch the world as it spins, but I don't care if these babies die in genocide or if these women are raped or if all this violence continues among nations."

 

I think I'll stick with the rational and logical way of thinking. They should just go rent Ghostbusters if they're so highly favourable of fantasy and the supernatural realm that they have created for themselves.

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Something that I can't ever wrap my mind around is that an all powerful deity...we are talking ONE being here...is intimately concerned with the invidivual actions of every single living breathing person.

 

That would be like me concerning myself with every ant on the planet. The whole thing is just too bizarre and strikes me as obviously human made...it's too "self-important" to be empirically true.

Yikes...I used to worship an obsessive-compulsive busybody! :ohmy: :Doh: How stupid of me. :screams:

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Factual belief is not a matter of volition: it's a matter of honesty. You don't believe in the Pythagorean theorem because you've willed or chosen it to be true, you believe in it because the facts are laid bare before you and there is only one possible conclusion. If you believe the contrary, it is either ignorance or self-deception, and I doubt a swanky fella like God would respect either.

 

I believe there is no god (yeah, I'm a positive atheist) because the facts have been laid bare before me and there is only one possible conclusion. God doesn't exist.

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Actually I think there is sort of a problem with this argument.  People can believe anything they want
Could you CHOOSE to believe in santa claus, TRULY REALLY believe santa claus was real if you REALLY REALLY wanted to?

I can see your point. When I was a christian and accepted jesus into my life there was never a point where I asked myself "Hmmm...do I believe this or I don't". For some reason or another my brain just accepted it. Probably because of loaded questions like "Do you want to go to heaven", "Do you want to avoid hell", or "do you accept jesus christ as your lord". These are loaded because your mindset automatically shifts to assume heaven, hell and jesus are real things in order to answer the question. My mind was probably also quick to believe because everyone around me believed. Also I was a kid, i thought santa clause was real. MY mind was innocent and willing to accept new information and christianity was right there for me.

 

But I want to ask this. Is belief a choice period? Like do I choose to believe giant squids exist even though I never seen one or does my brain just accept it as truth?

 

 

One thing about it. You have got to give the writers of the bible credit. They managed to supply their minions with a ready-made answer for everything.

I don't think so really. I think christians just force out an answer for everything by nit picking at their book. I'm pretty sure that they thaught up most arguments and rebuttals during the time they were trying to get the rest of there world to believe this cult

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As has been pointed out, no-one chooses to go to hell. The idea is absurd in the extreme.

 

As has also been said, there is no free will in the Bible. Romans 9 said God loved Jacob but hated Esau, before they had ever been born or done any good or evil, that His purpose according to election might stand - "not by works, but by Him that calleth", etc....

 

Consistent Christians would have to say that God chooses some for salvation, but "passes over" the rest by leaving them in their fallen state. Since no-one ultimately knows who is elect or reprobate until the last judgment, nobody can claim they haven't been chosen for salvation until they die without having experienced it.

 

That is, apart from a few unlucky folk. Unfortunately some people like myself end up in a state of irremediable reprobation before death. I am talking about the sin against the Holy Ghost - breaking your conscience. Believe me, it happens (I went through it myself). If the conscience breaks down, it's all over. You will never feel any guilt again - only remorse.

 

Because of my experience, one part of me thinks Christianity might be true. But there are so many problems with it that I wonder what to think. Taken to its logical conclusion, predestination means people like me would never have been saved. There can't be any 'if I did that it wouldn't have happened' kind of reasoning. One cannot make themselves elect. You either are or aren't.

 

In the light of my own experience, Christianity sucks. I put in 30 years of prayer, Bible reading, pleading with God, striving and looking for a "new birth" experience. It never happened. I messed up big time. But since I was never elected in the first place, I was going to be damned anyway.

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