curious Posted February 20, 2009 Share Posted February 20, 2009 All this rage just consumes me...all day every day....AAARGH!! But the part that is even harder for me is who does one direct that anger toward? I could be angry with myself. I mean I willingly gave my child away without even an ounce of struggle...just handed her over. So do I get angry with myself? Well, no. I can't do that...I really BELIEVED the doctrine...I believed it was the right thing to do because it was god's will. And back then I truly believed that. So do I blame the pastor who orchestrated it? Well I can't really do that if I won't blame myself. He too really BELIEVED the doctrine and believed it was god's will. Do I blame the people who took her? Well I can't do that either...they are in the same boat....they believe this stuff. So in the end if I am going to forgive myself for giving her to them and being weak minded....how can I blame anyone else? So who does one blame when there is no one to blame and it seems that every single person involved is a victim of a thousand lies? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyle Posted February 20, 2009 Share Posted February 20, 2009 It is the struggle we all face. I'm sorry for your loss. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legion Posted February 20, 2009 Share Posted February 20, 2009 I believe if we blame others we become bitter. If we blame ourselves, we become depressed. If we blame the circumstances, we try to escape (e.g. alcohol and drugs). If possible I think it is preferable to simply learn a lesson and keep on trucking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted February 20, 2009 Share Posted February 20, 2009 I look at Christianity the same way as I look at the flu, getting a cold, or any other disease, which is: I can't blame the virus for being a virus and I can't blame someone else for getting sick from it. It is what it is, and I have the responsibility for myself, to learn how to avoid getting infected, but also responsibility to my kids and family to protect them, and also the responsibility when I'm sick to not pass it on to others. I'm at the point where I can't really blame the Book or the people who is fooled by it. The ones who engineered it and ultimately have some responsibility of starting the farce, and to some degree can be blamed, Peter, Paul, at al, are dead. In the end, blaming might not be the answer to sort it all out, but rather awareness and skill to avoid it in the future, because Christianity is not the only mind-virus out there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legion Posted February 20, 2009 Share Posted February 20, 2009 By the way, welcome to the forums Curious. I am glad to see you here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curious Posted February 20, 2009 Author Share Posted February 20, 2009 Thanks for the welcome....I am soooo glad I found this site. I have joined a couple of groups since trying to come to grips with this stuff. Mostly groups with people who were in the same "network" I was caught up in. All the groups I have joined have been very helpful....just having someone to talk to about it. I agree Hans...I know what you say is true....just hard to do. I WON'T forgive anyone involved as I do truly believe that my young and undeveloped mind was taken advantage of. I have seen a lot of abuse...not just spiritual. The unwillingness of the church to admit any wrongdoing causes me to feel like I don't have to forgive them....they don't think they were wrong. The whole process of giving my child away was not only unheard of and unethical...I found out later it was illegal. Bastards!! I wish I had someone to direct the anger toward. Anywho.....don't want to be sad today so I will focus on re educating myself for now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyle Posted February 20, 2009 Share Posted February 20, 2009 I look at Christianity the same way as I look at the flu, getting a cold, or any other disease, which is: I can't blame the virus for being a virus and I can't blame someone else for getting sick from it. It is what it is, and I have the responsibility for myself, to learn how to avoid getting infected, but also responsibility to my kids and family to protect them, and also the responsibility when I'm sick to not pass it on to others. I'm at the point where I can't really blame the Book or the people who is fooled by it. The ones who engineered it and ultimately have some responsibility of starting the farce, and to some degree can be blamed, Peter, Paul, at al, are dead. In the end, blaming might not be the answer to sort it all out, but rather awareness and skill to avoid it in the future, because Christianity is not the only mind-virus out there. Well said. I think I learn a tidbit every day from this place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sheri butterfly Posted February 20, 2009 Share Posted February 20, 2009 curious, perhaps if you look at your new found understandings as discovery and liberation, with the potential for so much growth. It would be easier for you.....maybe...... this construct is passed on in ignorance and you have a opp to end the cycle ...all the best hun.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curious Posted February 20, 2009 Author Share Posted February 20, 2009 Yes...in an odd way I am somewhat excited about this world in front of me. I am studying Wicca right now...it seems to me to be a beautiful religion. But I am a little gun shy as I am fearful of myself just trying to grab onto another religion to replace my old one. So I am just reading and studying right now. Trying to process all these feelings that come and go. I know I will be fine at some point....this coming to grips stage really sucks though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted February 20, 2009 Share Posted February 20, 2009 Stay excited. Stay out of stagnation. Keep on learning. Change, move, feel, think, be, and things will get better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwc Posted February 20, 2009 Share Posted February 20, 2009 The unwillingness of the church to admit any wrongdoing causes me to feel like I don't have to forgive them....they don't think they were wrong. The whole process of giving my child away was not only unheard of and unethical...I found out later it was illegal. Bastards!! I wish I had someone to direct the anger toward. Instead of directing your anger "toward" (as you put it) why don't you rethink things a bit and do what some frustrated people do and get your anger out in a different way? What I'm saying is you say you discovered what happened was illegal. Was this reported? Has any statute of limitations expired? Has this group done this to other people? Are they still doing such things? You can channel your energy into these activities which will allow you to take on an active, rather than passive, role. You can go after them for once. But not in a negative way (which is probably what is rolling around in your mind) but in a positive way. I'm sure that if they did it to you they likely did it to others and it probably wouldn't take long to gain allies. Just a thought. mwc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curious Posted February 20, 2009 Author Share Posted February 20, 2009 The unwillingness of the church to admit any wrongdoing causes me to feel like I don't have to forgive them....they don't think they were wrong. The whole process of giving my child away was not only unheard of and unethical...I found out later it was illegal. Bastards!! I wish I had someone to direct the anger toward. Instead of directing your anger "toward" (as you put it) why don't you rethink things a bit and do what some frustrated people do and get your anger out in a different way? What I'm saying is you say you discovered what happened was illegal. Was this reported? Has any statute of limitations expired? Has this group done this to other people? Are they still doing such things? You can channel your energy into these activities which will allow you to take on an active, rather than passive, role. You can go after them for once. But not in a negative way (which is probably what is rolling around in your mind) but in a positive way. I'm sure that if they did it to you they likely did it to others and it probably wouldn't take long to gain allies. Just a thought. mwc OH you have no idea the hundreds of mothers out there that I have found. Situations are not identical but they are very similar and all involve the same church/group of people. For myself, it was 15 years ago that I gave her away and she is now an adult so I'm not sure battling this group of people would be beneficial to my relationship with her. There have been many many people who have tried to go after these folks but they have had a lot of political and governmental support as well. It's hard to beat that. And anytime you think they just might get shut down...they move into another state. So in short...I think it would be a fruitless battle for myself and could possibly bring more harm than not as I DO want to rebuild a relationship with my child. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwc Posted February 20, 2009 Share Posted February 20, 2009 OH you have no idea the hundreds of mothers out there that I have found. Situations are not identical but they are very similar and all involve the same church/group of people. For myself, it was 15 years ago that I gave her away and she is now an adult so I'm not sure battling this group of people would be beneficial to my relationship with her. There have been many many people who have tried to go after these folks but they have had a lot of political and governmental support as well. It's hard to beat that. And anytime you think they just might get shut down...they move into another state. So in short...I think it would be a fruitless battle for myself and could possibly bring more harm than not as I DO want to rebuild a relationship with my child. You're right. I have no idea. I can't even truly empathize since it's such a foreign thought to me. It's sad that these groups create such lose-lose situations. That's why it seems that if enough people like yourself could manage to do something it would be a wonderful thing for other potential victims and a great outlet for your rage. But I wouldn't have you risk your potential relationship. It may be something to keep in mind for the future though. It could help other young mothers avoid the same situation. I definitely do wish you well trying to work through everything. mwc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seeker630 Posted February 22, 2009 Share Posted February 22, 2009 for Curious------------- I'm at a loss here. Are you going to post your story in the Testimonials thread soon? I would like to see what it was that happened with your child and the church you belonged to. I checked and it doesn't appear that you've actually posted any details yet. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curious Posted February 23, 2009 Author Share Posted February 23, 2009 for Curious------------- I'm at a loss here. Are you going to post your story in the Testimonials thread soon? I would like to see what it was that happened with your child and the church you belonged to. I checked and it doesn't appear that you've actually posted any details yet. Thanks Welllll....I'm a little apprehensive to name names just yet and am fearful of someone being able to put 2 and 2 together if I do tell my story. I only found my child a year ago and am working very hard at trying to build a relationship with her. As I said, she was raised by very strong supporters of the place I am speaking of and the last thing I want/need right now is for my new found child to run away from me because I'm a heretic. I have been very very careful who I have shared this with....but in time hopefully I will feel more secure. I'm sorry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JessicaSideways Posted February 23, 2009 Share Posted February 23, 2009 Being converted into a Christian is just like becoming a zombie. You scour the earth, seeking the brains of other living individuals to satisfy your own needs (to get into a higher standing with god) and then go on to the next victim as soon as you feasted on the brain. The only difference between Christainity and being a zombie is the fact that with Christianity, there is hope that one can shake it off, whereas I have never heard of a zombie being turned back into a human. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curious Posted February 23, 2009 Author Share Posted February 23, 2009 Being converted into a Christian is just like becoming a zombie. You scour the earth, seeking the brains of other living individuals to satisfy your own needs (to get into a higher standing with god) and then go on to the next victim as soon as you feasted on the brain. The only difference between Christainity and being a zombie is the fact that with Christianity, there is hope that one can shake it off, whereas I have never heard of a zombie being turned back into a human. Huh? I am confused by this post...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted February 23, 2009 Share Posted February 23, 2009 Huh? I am confused by this post...... I think she is referring to the process of evangelizing. One Christian trying to convert others, non-Christians. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R. S. Martin Posted February 24, 2009 Share Posted February 24, 2009 I believe if we blame others we become bitter. If we blame ourselves, we become depressed. If we blame the circumstances, we try to escape (e.g. alcohol and drugs). If possible I think it is preferable to simply learn a lesson and keep on trucking. What he's describing is acceptance and growth. It takes work to reach acceptance, but that is the only place we can have any peace at all, I think. Best, Phanta That's what I find for myself. I value what I learned. It could not have been learned any other way. I would not wish any other human being the excruciating experiences but since I went through it, I'm going to salvage what can be salvaged and that is the lessons learned. I forget the man's name but an educated concentration camp survivor did the same. I think he was a trained psychologist so he put his training to use and wrote a book afterward. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R. S. Martin Posted February 24, 2009 Share Posted February 24, 2009 You're probably right. Sometimes I get names mixed up but I thought it was Frankl. I had in mind the title of the book was Why Bad Things Happen to Good People. Apparently I had the title wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seeker630 Posted February 24, 2009 Share Posted February 24, 2009 I believe if we blame others we become bitter. If we blame ourselves, we become depressed. If we blame the circumstances, we try to escape (e.g. alcohol and drugs). If possible I think it is preferable to simply learn a lesson and keep on trucking. What he's describing is acceptance and growth. It takes work to reach acceptance, but that is the only place we can have any peace at all, I think. Best, Phanta That's what I find for myself. I value what I learned. It could not have been learned any other way. I would not wish any other human being the excruciating experiences but since I went through it, I'm going to salvage what can be salvaged and that is the lessons learned. I forget the man's name but an educated concentration camp survivor did the same. I think he was a trained psychologist so he put his training to use and wrote a book afterward. Your are thinking of Joseph Campbell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seeker630 Posted February 24, 2009 Share Posted February 24, 2009 I forget the man's name but an educated concentration camp survivor did the same. I think he was a trained psychologist so he put his training to use and wrote a book afterward. Your are thinking of Joseph Campbell. Joseph Campbell was a scholar of comparative religion and mythology. He wasn't a concentration camp survivor. Phanta Sorry------part of his work involved camp survivors, and that is what I was remembering. It's been a while since I read his books. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
noob Posted February 25, 2009 Share Posted February 25, 2009 I believe you are thinking of Victor Frankl. The book is Man's Search for Meaning. It's been a few years since I read the book, but I remember that I loved it!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seeker630 Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 I believe you are thinking of Victor Frankl. The book is Man's Search for Meaning. It's been a few years since I read the book, but I remember that I loved it!!! I think you're right-------it's been so long ago that I read it that I got the two confused. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R. S. Martin Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 Back to the original question of the thread: Who do we blame for our religious indoctrination and all that goes with it... I've given that a lot of thought myself--so much so that I found myself going in circles--and I was still MAD!!! I can blame my parents. But they were under pressure of their parents. And they were under pressure of the church. I could blame the deacon who lived across the road, or the preacher who lived up the road. But they were under pressure of the bishop. And the bishop had taken vows when he was ordained... Some of these people were no longer alive but they lived on in people's memories so that it seemed to them like they were alive and these vows were as real as the day he had taken them. Besides, many witnesses still lived and would hold him to it. Possibly not everyone else on these forums comes from communities that were centuries old and where everyone's great-grandfathers tangled with everyone else's great-grandfather, but I think the stories are similar. Everyone is everyone else's brother's and sister's keeper, bound in conscience before God for time and eternity. How rigid and dysfunctional these bounds were is only a matter of degree. But if we really look at what "god" is--probably nothing more than the strongest alter-ego in the crowd--then if we consider that all of the crowd is bound to this alter-ego for time and eternity.....anybody else get the feeling somebody needs a lynching, (metaphorically, of course)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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