Neon Genesis Posted March 4, 2009 Share Posted March 4, 2009 Why is it that whenever xtians come here for the purpose of reconverting us and saving our souls, they always end up leaving with their tails behind their legs two or three pages later? I frankly find this to be rather cowardly of them to just leave and never come back without having the guts to apologize or admit they were wrong. Even most of the xtians that come here regularly do this in the threads they post in. They'll try to convert us in these threads but then when they get backed into a corner, they just pack up their bags and move to another thread. They don't even admit they were wrong about their claims. They just drop the thread for another one and I don't understand why they bother staying around when they should know by now they aren't going to convince anyone here. I don't care if they post here or not. I just don't get why when even Jesus said if somebody doesn't convert, to dust off the sandals on your feet. I also feel insulted when the xtians come here to convert us but then turn around and complain that they don't have enough time to answer all our questions because they apparently have something more important to do than saving souls. It's like they think our salvation is unimportant in the grand scheme of things. If you don't think our salvation was all that important to begin with or you had such important things to do more than saving us, why bother posting in the first place? And didn't Jesus say you were supposed to put saving souls as your top priority above everything else? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted March 4, 2009 Share Posted March 4, 2009 They can't afford to admit they don't know something, or being wrong, since they believe they are the representatives of the absolute, universal, objective, and undeniable truth. If you think you are right, admitting you are wrong would mean you weren't right, and it hurts the ego. And it hurts the ego because it rattles the persons view of reality. They think they have the answer to how things works, and it creates a stability and security, but by shaking it, it is all at danger. And... this applies to all of us. We are limited creatures trying to figure out the world, and when we finally think we got it, someone comes along and tells us we're wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator florduh Posted March 4, 2009 Super Moderator Share Posted March 4, 2009 I think they aren't expecting to encounter such an awesome brain trust as we have here. It's intimidating to someone who just barely got through Apologetics 101. A lot of people here are two or three degrees ahead of them in Theology, Philosophy and the sciences. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
upstarter Posted March 4, 2009 Share Posted March 4, 2009 Oh that's us all over... the awesome brain trust. But yes, I think that's essentially it. They all assume that we must just be deluded or not heard the "right" message and that all they need to do is drop in their pearls of wisdom and we'll all open our eyes and shout Hallelujah. When that doesn't happen, they have nothing more to offer. Most of them don't even wait around to see if their brand of The Truth does it's work. Heather Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kathlene Posted March 4, 2009 Share Posted March 4, 2009 Honestly at the end of the day, I think these christians just think we are deluded, angry, bitter, resentful people who walked away from god. No amount of philosophical and intellectual debate will get them to see otherwise. How can you possible have any rational thinking conversation with them, when we all know for a fact they think we are under the devil's spell and our eyes have been clouded over? Will anything ever penetrate through that thinking? No, not likely. I talk with a christian friend quite regularly and tell him about this site, and all he thinks it is, is a bunch of people who felt they were mistreated or bitter about god and who get together and whinge about it. To me there is no hope of reconciling the two different schools of thought. One spiritual and highly deluded, the other rational, reasonable and functioning. Never the twain will these two meet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest QuidEstCaritas? Posted March 4, 2009 Share Posted March 4, 2009 Honestly at the end of the day, I think these christians just think we are deluded, angry, bitter, resentful people who walked away from god. No amount of philosophical and intellectual debate will get them to see otherwise. How can you possible have any rational thinking conversation with them, when we all know for a fact they think we are under the devil's spell and our eyes have been clouded over? Will anything ever penetrate through that thinking? No, not likely. I talk with a christian friend quite regularly and tell him about this site, and all he thinks it is, is a bunch of people who felt they were mistreated or bitter about god and who get together and whinge about it. To me there is no hope of reconciling the two different schools of thought. One spiritual and highly deluded, the other rational, reasonable and functioning. Never the twain will these two meet. Yeah, that's the problem. You really cannot just be a "survivor" of something like X-tianity, it's got to be whining, moaning, complaining, etc, etc. I know from my own experience that when I investigated X-tianity in general I wasn't in a frame of mind where I was mad with "God" or the "Church" or "Christ" or "X-tianity" at all really. I was extremely angry and full of hate towards my former group, but that group was hardly "X-tianity" on the whole. It wasn't until after much research on the net and thoughtful discussion and deep thought that I reached the immovable conclusion that what's known/taken-as "X-tianity in general" is patently absurd. In fact the way I was rescued from the group seemed miraculous to me until I had a chance to look at things from a different angle.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thurisaz Posted March 5, 2009 Share Posted March 5, 2009 Agreed to most what's been said. The average morontheist is not prepared for a reasonable discussion. They come in here after their cult Führers have taught them the Magic Words that will insta(re)convert everyone, or so they think. They honestly believe they only need to mumble their spell and we'll come back to the cult immediately. Then... SHOCK!... they find out that it just ain't so. Remember that I've stated my conviction before already, several times, that you don't (and can't actually!) debate with a morontheist. There is no brain activity on the other side. The "best" you can get is that the morontheist scans your statements for keywords and pukes up a response based on the keywords detected. And when the morontheist finds that it can't get ahead without activating its brain, it runs - because it knows that this would mean the quick death of its "secure knowledge to be Right". So what are they to conclude? Either that they and their Führers are really wrong (MUST NOT BE!!!)... or that "we" are all just deluded/seduced/brainwashed/whatever. And we all know that da wholly babble presents a perfect pocket universe within that you can explain everything without challenging the foundations of your brainwashing. The last line of "defense" is "oh you're just a scoffer like da babble predicted there will be!!!". It would be hilarious if it wasn't affecting (and ruining) real persons' lives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LNC Posted March 5, 2009 Share Posted March 5, 2009 Why is it that whenever xtians come here for the purpose of reconverting us and saving our souls, they always end up leaving with their tails behind their legs two or three pages later? I frankly find this to be rather cowardly of them to just leave and never come back without having the guts to apologize or admit they were wrong. Even most of the xtians that come here regularly do this in the threads they post in. They'll try to convert us in these threads but then when they get backed into a corner, they just pack up their bags and move to another thread. They don't even admit they were wrong about their claims. They just drop the thread for another one and I don't understand why they bother staying around when they should know by now they aren't going to convince anyone here. I don't care if they post here or not. I just don't get why when even Jesus said if somebody doesn't convert, to dust off the sandals on your feet. I also feel insulted when the xtians come here to convert us but then turn around and complain that they don't have enough time to answer all our questions because they apparently have something more important to do than saving souls. It's like they think our salvation is unimportant in the grand scheme of things. If you don't think our salvation was all that important to begin with or you had such important things to do more than saving us, why bother posting in the first place? And didn't Jesus say you were supposed to put saving souls as your top priority above everything else? I am still here. I've been travelling and unable to post for a bit. BTW, I can't convert anyone, that's not my job. I am here to answer questions and to challenge assumptions. However, since I am invovled on the other thread and having a hard time keeping up there, I am not going to add to my efforts by posting any more here. So, if you want to jump into it, join us on the Open Discussion With Lnc thread. Cheers! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator florduh Posted March 5, 2009 Super Moderator Share Posted March 5, 2009 I gave up seriously debating with them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abiyoyo Posted March 5, 2009 Share Posted March 5, 2009 I am still here. I've been travelling and unable to post for a bit. BTW, I can't convert anyone, that's not my job. I am here to answer questions and to challenge assumptions. However, since I am invovled on the other thread and having a hard time keeping up there, I am not going to add to my efforts by posting any more here. So, if you want to jump into it, join us on the Open Discussion With Lnc thread. Cheers! :wtf: You can read these current replies, but not the ones in the thread dedicated to you.....also calling you out on coping and pasting from other sites. ???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neon Genesis Posted March 6, 2009 Author Share Posted March 6, 2009 BTW, I can't convert anyone, that's not my job. I am here to answer questions and to challenge assumptions.Isn't this the same thing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Looking4Answers Posted March 6, 2009 Share Posted March 6, 2009 BTW, I can't convert anyone, that's not my job. I am here to answer questions and to challenge assumptions. Riiiiiight. That's god's job (to convert the unconverted). Isn't he doing a piss-poor job of it? I mean, if the vast majority of all who have ever lived will end up in hell then that would mean that who ever IS doing the job is failing miserably. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neon Genesis Posted March 6, 2009 Author Share Posted March 6, 2009 And if God is the one doing all the converting instead of his followers, isn't God violating our freewill? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LNC Posted March 6, 2009 Share Posted March 6, 2009 :wtf: You can read these current replies, but not the ones in the thread dedicated to you.....also calling you out on coping and pasting from other sites. ???? Sorry, that thread was closed before I could get back to it today. I have been travelling this week and so it was difficult to do much on the site. Now, regarding the issue of copying and pasting, I saw that claim and yet I didn't see any evidence put behind it. Can you provide some? It would be easy to prove if it were true, but the fact is that I don't copy and paste. I write my own words and thoughts. Now, if the question is whether my arguments are original? Not any more than yours or anyone else's on this site. My arguments go back as far as Augustine, Aquinas, and other great thinkers from the past. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LNC Posted March 6, 2009 Share Posted March 6, 2009 BTW, I can't convert anyone, that's not my job. I am here to answer questions and to challenge assumptions.Isn't this the same thing? If it is, you and I are both guilty, as is nearly everyone else on this site. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LNC Posted March 6, 2009 Share Posted March 6, 2009 BTW, I can't convert anyone, that's not my job. I am here to answer questions and to challenge assumptions. Riiiiiight. That's god's job (to convert the unconverted). Isn't he doing a piss-poor job of it? I mean, if the vast majority of all who have ever lived will end up in hell then that would mean that who ever IS doing the job is failing miserably. No, he is actually saving every person whom he intends to save. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LNC Posted March 6, 2009 Share Posted March 6, 2009 And if God is the one doing all the converting instead of his followers, isn't God violating our freewill? Nope, he makes us spiritually alive and then we can choose to put our trust in him. There is no violation of will involved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skeptic Posted March 6, 2009 Share Posted March 6, 2009 BTW, I can't convert anyone, that's not my job. I am here to answer questions and to challenge assumptions. Riiiiiight. That's god's job (to convert the unconverted). Isn't he doing a piss-poor job of it? I mean, if the vast majority of all who have ever lived will end up in hell then that would mean that who ever IS doing the job is failing miserably. No, he is actually saving every person whom he intends to save. So god doesn't want to save some people? You're telling me and all of these people who don't intend on coming "back to the fold" that god wants us to go to hell? Why should I worship a deity who wants me to burn for all eternity? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neon Genesis Posted March 6, 2009 Author Share Posted March 6, 2009 If it is, you and I are both guilty, as is nearly everyone else on this site.Guilty of what? Nobody asked you to come here. You're the one who came here claiming to know the truth and to challenge our "assumptions" as if we somehow got Christianity wrong when were in it. If you're here to challenge our assumptions, then you obviously think you have the truth and want us to believe it. And weren't you the one who claimed Moljinir going through emotional difficulties deconverting was somehow proof he's wrong and you're right? What else do you call that but attempting to convert? Isn't lying a sin in xtianity? So why are you lying about your intentions? Why don't you pluck the shard out of your own eye before you come here to challenge our "assumptions?" How did you even know we were making assumptions before coming here unless you already had an ulterior motive? Do you think you're an all-knowing god or something? No, he is actually saving every person whom he intends to save.Wait, I thought you said that God wasn't violating our freewill? Yet if people are only saved because God intended them to be, how is that not a violation of freewill? Make up your mind already. Nope, he makes us spiritually alive and then we can choose to put our trust in him.How can he make us spiritually alive without violating free will? And if God is the one making people spiritually alive, why do you bother coming here since God apparently doesn't need you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LNC Posted March 6, 2009 Share Posted March 6, 2009 So god doesn't want to save some people? You're telling me and all of these people who don't intend on coming "back to the fold" that god wants us to go to hell? Why should I worship a deity who wants me to burn for all eternity? God's desire is that all would be saved; however, he will not violate our free will. It is not God's desire that you burn in hell for eternity; yet, if you choose to remain in rebellion against him, he won't force you to be with him for eternity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted March 6, 2009 Share Posted March 6, 2009 God's desire is that all would be saved; however, he will not violate our free will. It is not God's desire that you burn in hell for eternity; yet, if you choose to remain in rebellion against him, he won't force you to be with him for eternity. But somehow he already knows what we will choose? ... Forget it. I don't want to get into yet another hopeless exercise in circumlocutory discourse. From our earlier discussion it's obvious we're too disparate to get anywhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LNC Posted March 6, 2009 Share Posted March 6, 2009 Guilty of what? Nobody asked you to come here. Actually, you are wrong, I was asked to come here from a discussion with one of the members on this site that we were having at another site. You seemed to imply in your earlier post (and I may be mistaken as your response was not specific) that answering questions and challenging assumptions was akin to trying to converts someone (if I am wrong about your question, then please clarify), and I merely indicated that nearly everyone on this site seems to be asking questions and challenging assumptions, and therefore, trying to convert others to their way of thinking (if your assumptions correct, with which I don't really agree). You're the one who came here claiming to know the truth and to challenge our "assumptions" as if we somehow got Christianity wrong when were in it. If you're here to challenge our assumptions, then you obviously think you have the truth and want us to believe it. And weren't you the one who claimed Moljinir going through emotional difficulties deconverting was somehow proof he's wrong and you're right? What else do you call that but attempting to convert? Isn't lying a sin in xtianity? So why are you lying about your intentions? Why don't you pluck the shard out of your own eye before you come here to challenge our "assumptions?" How did you even know we were making assumptions before coming here unless you already had an ulterior motive? Do you think you're an all-knowing god or something? We all believe that we are right, don't we? Your questions imply that you think I am wrong, which would mean that you know the truth and that I am not in line with the truth. So, in essence you are accusing me of that which you are guilty. Really, we all believe that are are right about what we believe, otherwise, why believe it? I don't remember claiming that Moljinir was going through emotional difficulties, if you have evidence to prove otherwise, please produce it. Again, I can't convert anyone to Christianity, that is clear from the Bible, it is only God who does the converting. Yes, lying is a sin, and I am guilty of it all too often, as is everyone else on this planet if we are honest with ourselves. However, I don't believe I am lying about what I am saying here. Now, I may be mistaken, which is very possible, but I am not willfully lying. Part of the reason that I am here is to be challenged by all of you as well, so if you believe I am mistaken, which you have indicated, we can have an honest discussion about it and find out where the truth lies. The last thing that I am is an all-knowing god, or any other kind of god for that matter. Just a mere fallible and fallen human being created in the image of God. Wait, I thought you said that God wasn't violating our freewill? Yet if people are only saved because God intended them to be, how is that not a violation of freewill? Make up your mind already. He isn't, as you can see from my response earlier. How can he make us spiritually alive without violating free will? And if God is the one making people spiritually alive, why do you bother coming here since God apparently doesn't need you? I don't know, do you know of patients that die on the operating table that object to being brought back to life? The fact that we are spiritually dead indicates that we have no will to be violated in that respect. If you disagree, maybe you can tell me how that would work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LNC Posted March 6, 2009 Share Posted March 6, 2009 God's desire is that all would be saved; however, he will not violate our free will. It is not God's desire that you burn in hell for eternity; yet, if you choose to remain in rebellion against him, he won't force you to be with him for eternity. But somehow he already knows what we will choose? Yes, God's knowledge of us is not bound by time as our knowledge is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abiyoyo Posted March 6, 2009 Share Posted March 6, 2009 God's desire is that all would be saved; however, he will not violate our free will. It is not God's desire that you burn in hell for eternity; yet, if you choose to remain in rebellion against him, he won't force you to be with him for eternity. So, who is in control of hell, God or Satan? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted March 7, 2009 Share Posted March 7, 2009 Yes, God's knowledge of us is not bound by time as our knowledge is. Does he know that I don't believe in him because I don't think there's enough evidence of him? And is he then capable of giving me enough evidence to convince me of his existence? (Damn, I'm addicted to debating these topics... I need to go to some Debating God's Existence Anonymous.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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