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I'll admit it. I started reading this thread at the last page. But I wanted to comment on this one sentence:

 

God's desire is that all would be saved; however, he will not violate our free will. It is not God's desire that you burn in hell for eternity; yet, if you choose to remain in rebellion against him, he won't force you to be with him for eternity.

 

Notice that LNC emphatically states that god will not violate our free will. Can you (or anyone) prove that from the Bible? How can you say that so emphatically as if it is an absolute truth taught in the Bible? Some Christians very strongly deny that the Bible states men have free wills at all. Some only maintain that only the original man and woman, Adam and Eve, had free wills and lost this freedom when they disobeyed by eating of the forbidden fruit. Still others state that man is still a free agent with the freedom to accept or reject god. What LNC states so emphatically, as if it is an undeniable Bible fact, is something that the best of theologians have debated ad nauseum for millenia.

 

My point? If something, such as free will, is so hotly debated in Christian circles, then it cannot really be used as a proof for how god does or does not function. You can "prove" that the Bible teaches that god wants people to be "saved." But you cannot "prove" that man has a free will (biblically).

 

LNC also states that god does not desire that people burn in hell eternally. While I personally think the Bible teaches this (and, no, I don't believe the Bible), this is, once again, a hotly debated topic among theologians and has been for centuries on end. Some see annihilation. Some see eternal punishment. Some see the Virgin Mary in a cinnamon bun. Once again, the topic is debated enough to make it something that cannot be honestly used in an argument.

 

And I think that if god did desire people to burn in hell for an eternity, then he would not have created hell in the first place and would not have made it so easy to get that that, according to the Bible, wide is the road that leads there and many (the vast majority) find it. Quite the contrary: it seems that god does desire people to go to hell (if one believes the Bible) and, in fact, delights in the destruction of the wicked (according to the Bible).

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So god doesn't want to save some people? You're telling me and all of these people who don't intend on coming "back to the fold" that god wants us to go to hell? Why should I worship a deity who wants me to burn for all eternity?

 

God's desire is that all would be saved; however, he will not violate our free will. It is not God's desire that you burn in hell for eternity; yet, if you choose to remain in rebellion against him, he won't force you to be with him for eternity.

 

Johnny Yuma was a rebel! :begood:

 

He'll force you to be in hell instead! You have to have something to rebel against to be rebellious. We were born. We live life. Christianity is a closed belief system that claims to know all about god, when its' claims are erroneous. We may choose to believe or not believe a lie. No cause for rebellion.

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And I think that if god did desire people to burn in hell for an eternity, then he would not have created hell in the first place and would not have made it so easy to get that that, according to the Bible, wide is the road that leads there and many (the vast majority) find it. Quite the contrary: it seems that god does desire people to go to hell (if one believes the Bible) and, in fact, delights in the destruction of the wicked (according to the Bible).

Very true. Why make it easier to go to Hell then Heaven, if Heaven was the ultimate idea? The answer seems to be that the goal is not to get people to Heaven, but rather it's a game.

 

If God knows already who is going there and who is not, then why even play out the game? Why not just take all our souls and send us there right now? Since there is a definite answer to what we will decide and where we will go, it seems rather pointless to try to do either or. Whichever kind of faith I have when I die, that was the plan all along anyway, so why even try to convert people or ask ourselves if God exists? If I end my life not believing, that was the plan, and I should accept eternal torture.

 

And that is God's love?

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God's desire is that all would be saved; however, he will not violate our free will. It is not God's desire that you burn in hell for eternity; yet, if you choose to remain in rebellion against him, he won't force you to be with him for eternity.

 

Is your gawd omniscient and the creator of everything? Or is this the time for you to admit that your cult's dogma is a lie?

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I must have been having a stroke when I wrote the following:

 

And I think that if god did desire people to burn in hell for an eternity, then he would not have created hell in the first place and would not have made it so easy to get that that, according to the Bible, wide is the road that leads there and many (the vast majority) find it. Quite the contrary: it seems that god does desire people to go to hell (if one believes the Bible) and, in fact, delights in the destruction of the wicked (according to the Bible).

 

Though I think that most of you understood me. Let me rephrase that!

 

And I think that if god did NOT desire people to burn in hell for an eternity, then he would not have created hell in the first place and he would not have made it so easy to get there, especially since the Bible states that wide is the road that leads there and many (the vast majority) find it. Quite the contrary: it seems that god does desire people to go to hell (if one believes the Bible) and, in fact, delights in the destruction of the wicked (according to the Bible).

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L4A,

 

I make those mistakes all the time. It's so frigging annoying to go back to ones own posts a day or two later and realize all the mistakes. But I think we somehow managed to read that "NOT' in there anyway. :)

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Notice that LNC emphatically states that god will not violate our free will. Can you (or anyone) prove that from the Bible?

 

Jonah is a good example of God can and will violate freewill. Jonah refused to preach to Nineveh, and God supposedly had him swallowed by a whale, facing death. Pharaoh in Egypt, supposedly, God changed his heart, brought plagues on them. I would see that as violating freewill. God has always seemed to Biblically punish those that don't obey His commands.

 

Maybe freewill, is often confused with choice. We have a choice to make our own decisions, in this world, but if God were to give an order for someone to do this or that, then it seems God has Biblically interrupted freewill, and choice, to either punish those people, person, or get them to do what He commanded them to do. Biblically, that is.

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Now, regarding the issue of copying and pasting, I saw that claim and yet I didn't see any evidence put behind it. Can you provide some? It would be easy to prove if it were true, but the fact is that I don't copy and paste.

 

Shantonu on more than one occasion put up the sites you were getting your info from.

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Jonah is a good example of God can and will violate freewill. Jonah refused to preach to Nineveh, and God supposedly had him swallowed by a whale, facing death. Pharaoh in Egypt, supposedly, God changed his heart, brought plagues on them. I would see that as violating freewill. God has always seemed to Biblically punish those that don't obey His commands.

Very true. It does say in NT that God supposedly hardened Pharaoh's heart. So it is a direct infringement on the idea of free will in that case, only for the purpose to get Israel out of Egypt. So if God could override free will for the purpose of saving a tribe, then it shouldn't be impossible for God to override free will to save people from Hell. It is like I said before, the God of Philosophy is not the same as Bible God.

 

Maybe freewill, is often confused with choice. We have a choice to make our own decisions, in this world, but if God were to give an order for someone to do this or that, then it seems God has Biblically interrupted freewill, and choice, to either punish those people, person, or get them to do what He commanded them to do. Biblically, that is.

Free will is a very difficult topic regardless if God is in the mix, that's for sure. Do we ever make a choice or decision out of thin air, or do we tend to do it because of a whole bunch of preconditions?

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Free will is a very difficult topic regardless if God is in the mix, that's for sure. Do we ever make a choice or decision out of thin air, or do we tend to do it because of a whole bunch of preconditions?

 

Depends. I think that can be divided a few ways. Influence of peers, work/home structure, family structure, religious structure, self-character, and agenda. I think that someone can make a choice that someone else would perceive was out of thin air, yet it still had preconditions to the other person? Make sense. I think our environment has much to do with the 'freewill, choice' belief. If someone was in a Islamic mosque, they probably would shout, Jesus is the way. Yet, they are physically able to do so.

 

I don't think we really have freewill. I am trying to think of an instance in the Bible, where God/Jesus communicated to someone; and they said Nope, maybe next time and God/Jesus left them be. ?? Biblically, unto God, I don't think their is a freewill, but .........there is? :scratch:

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Depends. I think that can be divided a few ways. Influence of peers, work/home structure, family structure, religious structure, self-character, and agenda. I think that someone can make a choice that someone else would perceive was out of thin air, yet it still had preconditions to the other person? Make sense. I think our environment has much to do with the 'freewill, choice' belief. If someone was in a Islamic mosque, they probably would shout, Jesus is the way. Yet, they are physically able to do so.

That's like calling "robbery" in a bank, or "bomb" in an airplane.

 

I don't think we really have freewill. I am trying to think of an instance in the Bible, where God/Jesus communicated to someone; and they said Nope, maybe next time and God/Jesus left them be. ?? Biblically, unto God, I don't think their is a freewill, but .........there is? :scratch:

That's a good question. Does the Bible really teach much about free will? I know at least one verse that hints to it, but it's not really taught. It would have been nice if God could have provided with a full textbook explaining human nature and conditions, using philosophy, biology, psychiatry, physics... Maybe we would have understood God better if he had done that? Now we're stuck with old musty thinkers who can't agree but are very skilled in verbal assaults. Just think about how much we are supposed to trust scholars to know if the Bible say this or that, and if a thing happened or not, and we have to trust philosophers to explain the logical or illogical conditions for different attributes of God. Why didn't God tell us from the start? Why do we (humans) have to figure it out, and try to decide which old-long-bearded-guy is more correct?

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Does he know that I don't believe in him because I don't think there's enough evidence of him? And is he then capable of giving me enough evidence to convince me of his existence?

 

(Damn, I'm addicted to debating these topics... I need to go to some Debating God's Existence Anonymous.)

 

No, he actually knows the real reason that you say you don't believe in him. He has already given sufficient evidence of his existence. The Apostle Paul wrote that we suppress the truth in unrighteousness and are therefore held accountable to that fact by God.

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So, who is in control of hell, God or Satan?

 

Well, as a former pastor of mine used to say, even the devil is God's devil.

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So, who is in control of hell, God or Satan?

 

Well, as a former pastor of mine used to say, even the devil is God's devil.

 

Then hell is God's as well. Right?

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Notice that LNC emphatically states that god will not violate our free will. Can you (or anyone) prove that from the Bible? How can you say that so emphatically as if it is an absolute truth taught in the Bible? Some Christians very strongly deny that the Bible states men have free wills at all. Some only maintain that only the original man and woman, Adam and Eve, had free wills and lost this freedom when they disobeyed by eating of the forbidden fruit. Still others state that man is still a free agent with the freedom to accept or reject god. What LNC states so emphatically, as if it is an undeniable Bible fact, is something that the best of theologians have debated ad nauseum for millenia.

 

My point? If something, such as free will, is so hotly debated in Christian circles, then it cannot really be used as a proof for how god does or does not function. You can "prove" that the Bible teaches that god wants people to be "saved." But you cannot "prove" that man has a free will (biblically).

 

LNC also states that god does not desire that people burn in hell eternally. While I personally think the Bible teaches this (and, no, I don't believe the Bible), this is, once again, a hotly debated topic among theologians and has been for centuries on end. Some see annihilation. Some see eternal punishment. Some see the Virgin Mary in a cinnamon bun. Once again, the topic is debated enough to make it something that cannot be honestly used in an argument.

 

And I think that if god did desire people to burn in hell for an eternity, then he would not have created hell in the first place and would not have made it so easy to get that that, according to the Bible, wide is the road that leads there and many (the vast majority) find it. Quite the contrary: it seems that god does desire people to go to hell (if one believes the Bible) and, in fact, delights in the destruction of the wicked (according to the Bible).

 

Maybe, I should have put that differently, God doesn't have to violate free will to save anyone as I explained earlier.

 

There are two ways of looking as will. Theologians have referred to the two types of will expressed by God in various ways over the years, including his sovereign will vs. his moral will, his preceptive will vs. his decretive will, his efficient will vs. his permissive will, his secret will vs. his revealed will, etc. The bottom line is that there are some things that he wills, but permits freedom, and other things that he wills that definitely come to pass. So, there is both a level of freedom that God permits man and a level where God imposes his sovereign will. It would be what I would refer to as the free agency of man.

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No, he actually knows the real reason that you say you don't believe in him.

Obviously he doesn't. Because if he did, he could change my mind. He could give me enough arguments for me to believe, but he doesn't.

 

My last action as label Christian I prayed to God. I was losing my faith, I had a hard time believing in the Christian God, so I prayed one time to ask God to give me any evidence or anything that I could hold unto so I could believe. But unfortunately it was silent. I haven't seen anything, or heard anything, neither miraculous nor from any human being (including you) to which has convinced me that God exists. If God exists, he would know what I'm asking for. And since you're a human, the challenge is for you to ask God what it is I need, so you can give it to me. But obviously (again), God doesn't speak to you.

 

He has already given sufficient evidence of his existence.

Obviously he has not, since I don't believe.

 

The Apostle Paul wrote that we suppress the truth in unrighteousness and are therefore held accountable to that fact by God.

Again, obviously Paul is wrong. Since he presents conclusions based on religious presumptions and prejudice.

 

Same old stuff. Have heard these arguments for years now. Seriously, is that all you religious can come up with? Your arguments here only confirmed that you don't know if God exists or not, and you make excuses for what would be a natural act by a loving God. You're the spokesperson for God, saying "I'm sorry, but God is busy, but I can tell you what he meant to say." I don't buy that. If God exists, God would know what I need to believe. After all I was Christian for 30 years, but when faith falters, only God can save it and I asked, but God choose not to or I only spoke into thin air.

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He'll force you to be in hell instead! You have to have something to rebel against to be rebellious. We were born. We live life. Christianity is a closed belief system that claims to know all about god, when its' claims are erroneous. We may choose to believe or not believe a lie. No cause for rebellion.

 

God neither forces people into hell, nor forces people into heaven. I don't know where you get the idea that Christianity claims to know all about God. If God could be known by by man completely, he would not be God. Now, you claim that Christianity has erroneous claims about God, which requires that you have superior knowledge about God. Let me ask you, from where do you derive your knowledge, and what knowledge do you you have that proves that Christianity holds erroneous views? If God is true, and if his existence demands our allegiance, and if we choose to resist that allegiance, then that would, by definition, be rebellion.

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So, who is in control of hell, God or Satan?

 

Well, as a former pastor of mine used to say, even the devil is God's devil.

So the same rules, morals, free will, logic, etc apply to the Devil? Even first cause, prescience, omniscience...? God knew Satan would rebel, and God knew he had to create Hell, and he knew he would have to send billions of people to Hell for eternal torture.

 

It's all just a game to God or a big experiment. But why do that? He already know what will happen? So God must be extremely bored. Why does God need humans with free will doing good and believing in him so he can have them for eternity in a some magical land of Oz? What is the purpose of God doing all this?

 

Based on the "absolute" morality planted in me by my God, I would say that your God is sick.

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Is your gawd omniscient and the creator of everything? Or is this the time for you to admit that your cult's dogma is a lie?

 

I don't have a gawd, but God is omniscient and the creator of everything. I also don't belong to a cult. However, if you believe that I am following a lie, I would be happy to discuss these claims if you have specific ones to put forth.

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Free will is a very difficult topic regardless if God is in the mix, that's for sure. Do we ever make a choice or decision out of thin air, or do we tend to do it because of a whole bunch of preconditions?

 

Depends. I think that can be divided a few ways. Influence of peers, work/home structure, family structure, religious structure, self-character, and agenda. I think that someone can make a choice that someone else would perceive was out of thin air, yet it still had preconditions to the other person? Make sense. I think our environment has much to do with the 'freewill, choice' belief.

 

I agree with YoYo, as I lean towards the "no freewill" camp. I don't see how we could make totally "free" choices in anything. We have wills and choices, but we don't make them totally free from influences and experience, IMHO.

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I agree with YoYo, as I lean towards the "no freewill" camp. I don't see how we could make totally "free" choices in anything. We have wills and choices, but we don't make them totally free from influences and experience, IMHO.

And I agree too.

 

We make choices based on past experience, and thoughts derived from those experiences. If I had the life of LNC, I most likely would be a stubborn Christian just like him. But if LNC had had my life, it is very plausible he wouldn't be Christian, but a de-convert just as me. It kind of touches on the subject of moral luck.

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Jonah is a good example of God can and will violate freewill. Jonah refused to preach to Nineveh, and God supposedly had him swallowed by a whale, facing death. Pharaoh in Egypt, supposedly, God changed his heart, brought plagues on them. I would see that as violating freewill. God has always seemed to Biblically punish those that don't obey His commands.

 

Maybe freewill, is often confused with choice. We have a choice to make our own decisions, in this world, but if God were to give an order for someone to do this or that, then it seems God has Biblically interrupted freewill, and choice, to either punish those people, person, or get them to do what He commanded them to do. Biblically, that is.

 

Actually, the Bible says that Jonah was swallowed by a large fish, not a whale which is a mammal rather than a fish. Now, how is God having Jonah swallowed by a fish in some way a violation of his free will? That would be like saying that traffic jams violate my free will as I desire to get to work in a timely fashion. Jonah freely chose to change his choice after being redeposited on dry land. God hardened Pharohs heart, of which we don't quite understand the implications, however, Pharoh freely made the choices that he did and was and is held accountable to them.

 

God gives a command and then it is up to us as to whether we will obey that command. So, there could be some confusion as to what free will is and what free choice is. Again, I subscribe to free agency, which allows for both man's choice and God's sovereignty to work together.

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He'll force you to be in hell instead! You have to have something to rebel against to be rebellious. We were born. We live life. Christianity is a closed belief system that claims to know all about god, when its' claims are erroneous. We may choose to believe or not believe a lie. No cause for rebellion.

 

God neither forces people into hell, nor forces people into heaven. I don't know where you get the idea that Christianity claims to know all about God. If God could be known by by man completely, he would not be God. Now, you claim that Christianity has erroneous claims about God, which requires that you have superior knowledge about God. Let me ask you, from where do you derive your knowledge, and what knowledge do you you have that proves that Christianity holds erroneous views? If God is true, and if his existence demands our allegiance, and if we choose to resist that allegiance, then that would, by definition, be rebellion.

 

Heaven/hell are the only options and if we disagree with the bible, we are assigned to hell. No choice on our part. You only fool yourself to buy into it.

 

Biblical Christianity displays it's version of god, and claims its god is the true god. We have no way of knowing anything about god. God is a mystery, if god exists. So, the bible is false and has not proven anything objectively verifiable about god. Don't play games and pretend you haven't read any of my past posts on the subject.

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I agree with YoYo, as I lean towards the "no freewill" camp. I don't see how we could make totally "free" choices in anything. We have wills and choices, but we don't make them totally free from influences and experience, IMHO.

And I agree too.

 

We make choices based on past experience, and thoughts derived from those experiences. If I had the life of LNC, I most likely would be a stubborn Christian just like him. But if LNC had had my life, it is very plausible he wouldn't be Christian, but a de-convert just as me. It kind of touches on the subject of moral luck.

 

Too bad for LNC! Maybe he'll have better luck in the future. :help:

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