Every Knee Shall Bow, And Every Tongue Confess

[Vomit Comet]

I don't get it.

 

- If every knee shall bow and every tongue confess, why fucking bother with evangelicism? It looks like God's eventually gonna get around to doing it himself.

 

- Or are most those people gonna be FUCKED anyways because they didn't accept the Gospel before God showed up? Or, in other words, will you be saved only if you were part of the 10% of humanity that drank the Kool-Aid before the Kool-Aid Man came crashing through the brick wall? You know, how Jesus said that Abraham said "if Moses and the Prophets are not enough..."

 

 

:wtf:

[florduh]

This should explain it:

The REAL Truth

[Mr. Neil]

It's basically something for Christians to jerk off to, because they think there's actually going to be an afterlife where non-believers will actually come before God to be judged. It's mental porn for fundies.

 

"Uhh...Yeah, God's gonna getcha!"

 

*fap!* *fap!* *fap!*

 

"He'll show you! You'll bow before your king."

 

*fap!* *fap!* *fap!*

 

"Yeah, right before he throws your ass into a lake of fire!"

 

*fap!* *fap!* *fap!*

 

"Fuckin' atheist"

 

*fap!* *fap!* *fap!*

[centauri]

I don't get it.

 

- If every knee shall bow and every tongue confess, why fucking bother with evangelicism? It looks like God's eventually gonna get around to doing it himself.

 

- Or are most those people gonna be FUCKED anyways because they didn't accept the Gospel before God showed up?

 

It's a shameless rip-off of the Hebrew scripture and inserts Jesus into it.

 

Philippians 2:9-11

Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

 

This is just another Christian attempt to make Jesus the center of attention and power.

It steals a concept from the "Old Testament" and distorts it to fit the savior mold Paul was advertising.

The Old Testament isn't talking about Jesus. There are no saviors other than God.

Isa 45:22-23

Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.

I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me(God, not Jesus) every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

[Neon Genesis]

Doesn't Revelation prophecy that even when Jesus returns in the Second Coming, there will still be people who will reject him? So how can both prophecies be right? And what about that whole unpardonable sin business?

[mwc]

Doesn't Revelation prophecy that even when Jesus returns in the Second Coming, there will still be people who will reject him? So how can both prophecies be right? And what about that whole unpardonable sin business?

Where does jesus return in Revelation? I've read it pretty thoroughly and I'm fairly certain that isn't really in there but read into there.

 

Having you been speaking ill of the HS again? Just looking at that it looks like the words involved relate to the LXX concepts of the Jubilee where the servants would be freed and so if you blaspheme the HS you won't get that release. Strangely enough there is nothing I can find that allows for someone to hold a person in bondage for such a reason so unless I can this would appear that "god" is violating his own rules here. This would also mean that humans would be seen as a type of indentured servant rather than strictly as slaves. This would mean every "Jubilee" we should be set free. This would indicate a cyclical type of universe rather than a linear one. This would also mean that we would be "slaves" to our own kind (ie. Jews to to Jews in the bible) so this would mean "god" to "god" but we're told we're slaves to "sin" (Satan?) and so this muddies the issue as to who would "release" us and why.

 

mwc

[♦ Fuego ♦]

Doesn't Revelation prophecy that even when Jesus returns in the Second Coming, there will still be people who will reject him? So how can both prophecies be right? And what about that whole unpardonable sin business?

My take on it was that this was not a conversion experience, but one of a conquering king forcing his newly conquered subjects to bow (just before he tortures them to death). Can you feel the love yet?

I think Florduh's link to the alien/god site was interesting, since the "New Jerusalem" sounds like a big ship coming down to establish world dominance. Sounds kind of similar to the Necromongers in "The Chronicles of Riddick".

[Abiyoyo]

Doesn't Revelation prophecy that even when Jesus returns in the Second Coming, there will still be people who will reject him? So how can both prophecies be right? And what about that whole unpardonable sin business?

Where does jesus return in Revelation? I've read it pretty thoroughly and I'm fairly certain that isn't really in there but read into there.

 

Having you been speaking ill of the HS again? Just looking at that it looks like the words involved relate to the LXX concepts of the Jubilee where the servants would be freed and so if you blaspheme the HS you won't get that release. Strangely enough there is nothing I can find that allows for someone to hold a person in bondage for such a reason so unless I can this would appear that "god" is violating his own rules here. This would also mean that humans would be seen as a type of indentured servant rather than strictly as slaves. This would mean every "Jubilee" we should be set free. This would indicate a cyclical type of universe rather than a linear one. This would also mean that we would be "slaves" to our own kind (ie. Jews to to Jews in the bible) so this would mean "god" to "god" but we're told we're slaves to "sin" (Satan?) and so this muddies the issue as to who would "release" us and why.

 

mwc

 

Angel of the Lord preaches the Gospel, Jesus is the Lamb that can open the scroll, also the Lamb, of the Lamb's book of life

[mwc]

My take on it was that this was not a conversion experience, but one of a conquering king forcing his newly conquered subjects to bow (just before he tortures them to death). Can you feel the love yet?

I think Florduh's link to the alien/god site was interesting, since the "New Jerusalem" sounds like a big ship coming down to establish world dominance. Sounds kind of similar to the Necromongers in "The Chronicles of Riddick".

The "New Jerusalem" is 12,000 stadia cubed (the 12 being the significant number which is destroyed in translations--it works out to 144,000 cubed in their old math but I don't recall how...but note the connection to the rest of the Revelation). The shape is also the same as the temple naos (the holy of holies was a cube) meaning this new city is one gigantic Holy of Holies built to perfect spec (or to the author's perfect spec). It sounds utterly ridiculous but it makes sense in context of the vision (and only in that context).

 

mwc

[Deva]

Doesn't Revelation prophecy that even when Jesus returns in the Second Coming, there will still be people who will reject him? So how can both prophecies be right? And what about that whole unpardonable sin business?

My take on it was that this was not a conversion experience, but one of a conquering king forcing his newly conquered subjects to bow (just before he tortures them to death). Can you feel the love yet?

I think Florduh's link to the alien/god site was interesting, since the "New Jerusalem" sounds like a big ship coming down to establish world dominance. Sounds kind of similar to the Necromongers in "The Chronicles of Riddick".

 

That is exactly how I understand the "every knee shall bow" verse. If you are not going to do it voluntarily, you will be made to do it at the end. There is no salvation involved, since it is too late. This God is a monster, yet we are constantly hearing that God is love.

 

Major question, why does God have to hide himself and his power until this particular time? If he is real, and our entire eternal future depends on us knowing and obeying him, why isn't he more convincing now, during this life, when there is time? What convincing proof do we have? A book with numerous inaccuracies and full of terrible deeds by this God. He must be sadistic.

[Deva]

The "New Jerusalem" is 12,000 stadia cubed (the 12 being the significant number which is destroyed in translations--it works out to 144,000 cubed in their old math but I don't recall how...but note the connection to the rest of the Revelation). The shape is also the same as the temple naos (the holy of holies was a cube) meaning this new city is one gigantic Holy of Holies built to perfect spec (or to the author's perfect spec). It sounds utterly ridiculous but it makes sense in context of the vision (and only in that context).

 

mwc

 

Being a Trekkie, this makes me picture in my head a huge Borg ship coming down from space. A big, giant cube. We are the Borg, you will be assimilated, resistance is futile!

[Deva]

- If every knee shall bow and every tongue confess, why fucking bother with evangelicism? It looks like God's eventually gonna get around to doing it himself.

 

In a slightly different context to your question, I heard this asked of Presbyterian R.C. Sproul in a class. Since Calvinists like Sproul believe that we are predestined to heaven or hell, why bother? His answer was because Christ commanded us to "go into all the world and preach the gospel". That is why. It doesn't make sense, but it always comes to the point where you run up against this wall-- which is God said it, so we do it without question.

[Mr. Neil]

Since Calvinists like Sproul believe that we are predestined to heaven or hell, why bother? His answer was because Christ commanded us to "go into all the world and preach the gospel". That is why.

Even though Calvinism is obnoxious, I do like that it shortens the argument quite a bit. They make very few apologetic excuses for believing absurd and barbaric things.

 

Atheist: "So wait, you actually believe that the reason I'm a godless heathen is because God made me that way."

Calvinist: "That's correct."

Atheist: "And someone who is predestined to hell can never be saved, right?"

Calvinist: "Yep."

Atheist: "And when God ordered the Isrealites to go about killing other nations, killing every man, child, and livestock, but keeping the women as "war booty" (clearly indicative of rape) you don't have a problem with this?

Calvinist: "Why should I? If God revealed it to be so, then it must be so. Who am I to question God?"

Atheist: "... um... See ya!"

 

And yes, I have seen Calvinists admit that keeping the women for themselves meant that they could rape them and not have problem with it. When someone can detach themselves so thoroughly, there's no point in arguing with them. Might as well go argue with someone a little more sensible. Like a catholic.

[mwc]

Being a Trekkie, this makes me picture in my head a huge Borg ship coming down from space. A big, giant cube. We are the Borg, you will be assimilated, resistance is futile!

If this is the Borg then where is the reference to the battle at Wolf 359?

 

Besides, I'm quite certain that when the original Borg came up with their "collective" idea that a lot of people thought it was bliss (and there's probably plenty that still do). Even though the Trek writers say otherwise I can imagine lots of folks walking willingly into the collective for all that it offers (ie. power, stability, etc.).

 

Though the idea of a cube representing "perfection" isn't that crazy. I can see why they would have chosen that shape. And when taken with the idea that the "new" Jerusalem (the Greek word for new here is as in "new to you" and not brand new) is one big Holy of Holies and the people within it are essentially all now High Priests (not just priests since, as you know, only HP's could enter the holiest place) then you can start to see why it's written how it is. Only those worthy of such a place get it. This is the super version from heaven landing on earth (like a Borg ship but they more crashed onto planets).

 

But, even Revelation states that people (lowlifes of varying types) won't be able to enter the city). So it seems that even once you acknowledge "god" and all his goodliness it really won't matter. Maybe you'll get tossed in the fire. Maybe you'll live outside the wonder cube. The book simply can't decide.

 

mwc

[♦ Fuego ♦]

I've heard one other opinion that the shape isn't a cube but a pyramid. It could still have the same dimensions if it had a square base.

 

When my mom died years ago, my pastor tried talking to my unbelieving dad about how amazing this New Jerusalem was going to be. Dad just kind of looked at the pastor like he was humoring a nut case.

[♦ Fuego ♦]

Being a Trekkie, this makes me picture in my head a huge Borg ship coming down from space. A big, giant cube. We are the Borg, you will be assimilated, resistance is futile!

 

I wonder Star Trek got the idea for the Borg ship from this imagery.

 

It all started so quietly, so one suspected. Nice young drones knocking on the door with Borg literature in their appendages, "We like to share a message of assimilation with you." Then they started getting into government positions and passing laws to make people quit acting in ways they considered futile. Then they got more and more aggressive, people started fighting back. Reason meant nothing to them, only their mission. Even their daycare centers were really only there to capture the minds of the young. They got stronger and built better protections. Now they control a whole section of the galaxy.

[♦ Fuego ♦]

Need I say more...

 

http://web.archive.org/web/20050211101410/...elism/index.htm

[mwc]

I've heard one other opinion that the shape isn't a cube but a pyramid. It could still have the same dimensions if it had a square base.

I've heard this too. It's an interesting thought but doesn't really fit into the Jewish religion (xian either for that matter). Even Egyptian temples had a square/rectangular (cubed) naos (holy of holies) so that shape seems the logical one to choose especially in this case given the other info in the text.

 

When my mom died years ago, my pastor tried talking to my unbelieving dad about how amazing this New Jerusalem was going to be. Dad just kind of looked at the pastor like he was humoring a nut case.

He should have been impressed with "gold as clear as glass" considering that is a property that gold doesn't exhibit. Gold becomes opaque the more pure it is refined (though the ancients thought otherwise). This is some gold that isn't gold. Only "god" can do the contradictory I guess.

 

mwc

[Big.blue.nation]

Doesn't Revelation prophecy that even when Jesus returns in the Second Coming, there will still be people who will reject him? So how can both prophecies be right? And what about that whole unpardonable sin business?

My take on it was that this was not a conversion experience, but one of a conquering king forcing his newly conquered subjects to bow (just before he tortures them to death). Can you feel the love yet?

I think Florduh's link to the alien/god site was interesting, since the "New Jerusalem" sounds like a big ship coming down to establish world dominance. Sounds kind of similar to the Necromongers in "The Chronicles of Riddick".

 

That is exactly how I understand the "every knee shall bow" verse. If you are not going to do it voluntarily, you will be made to do it at the end. There is no salvation involved, since it is too late. This God is a monster, yet we are constantly hearing that God is love.

 

Major question, why does God have to hide himself and his power until this particular time? If he is real, and our entire eternal future depends on us knowing and obeying him, why isn't he more convincing now, during this life, when there is time? What convincing proof do we have? A book with numerous inaccuracies and full of terrible deeds by this God. He must be sadistic.

 

Good point...I like that perspective on it!

 

I've always been confused on this verse and from my perspective almost seemed like someone although damned, would have to bow. It to me paints god as some mean-spirited sadistic tyrant if that is the case. I think it was added, twisted and/or manipulated into the scriptures in my opinion.

 

However, if we look at the beliefs of the earliest Xian believers who believed in a form of universalism and god's redeeming of all mankind, it starts to make a little more sense. We're just so used to the fire and brimstone, vindictive god version of Xianity which began after 300 A.D. once the roman empire endorsed version became militant and took over, basically destroying what good may have remained of the faith.

[Ouroboros]

He should have been impressed with "gold as clear as glass" considering that is a property that gold doesn't exhibit. Gold becomes opaque the more pure it is refined (though the ancients thought otherwise). This is some gold that isn't gold. Only "god" can do the contradictory I guess.

Talking about gold. Why would God have gold? First of all, gold doesn't have some intrinsic value in itself, it's valued because it has certain properties as a metal. It's soft, it's shiny, and things like that, but I mean, why would God have gold, or even need it? Most of the value of gold is a matter of what value we humans put on it, so basically God is valuing gold because we think it's shiny and valuable. Very strange... God like what we like, because... well, because God is human!

[OpheliaGinger]

When I was in the Church of Christ, the doctrine was that once God shows himself, no matter if you bow down and then believe, you are still doomed to hell because if you didn't believe before hand you were not saved. I guess it would be like having an extremely harsh teacher that told the class when a paper was due, but you were out sick and you had no idea there was ever a paper assigned, you will get a 0 for turning it in a day late.

[Mr. Neil]

I think it's more like having a washing machine. The washing machine is the human body, and God puts the dirty souls in the human body so that they can be cleaned of sin. But it's a weird kind of washing machine, because instead of God simply pressing the on-button, the soul in the washing machine needs to first confess that it is dirty and that it needs God/Jesus/Magic Sky King to clean it. Then, and only then, does the wash cycle take place which cleans the soul. However, if the machine dies, and the soul is set free before being put through the revelation cycle, then the soul is forever dirty, and cannot be placed on God's eternal clothesline. For some reason, God, despite his all-powerful, all-knowing nature, cannot clean souls without human body machines.

 

You'd think the guy would have heard of Woolite!

[Neon Genesis]

Talking about gold. Why would God have gold? First of all, gold doesn't have some intrinsic value in itself, it's valued because it has certain properties as a metal. It's soft, it's shiny, and things like that, but I mean, why would God have gold, or even need it? Most of the value of gold is a matter of what value we humans put on it, so basically God is valuing gold because we think it's shiny and valuable. Very strange... God like what we like, because... well, because God is human!

And why would we need gold in heaven anyway? Gold is useless unless you can spend it on something. Why not give us 72 virgins or something? At least with sex you could do something with it.

[Mr. Neil]

Oh fuck that! Why would you want a bunch of girls who've never had sex when you can have one who knows what the hell she's doing?

 

And yes, I'm paraphrasing Walter from Jeff Dunham's stand-up routine.

[Vomit Comet]

Well, you'd have all the time in the universe to break 'em in.

 

I mean, shit, 72 sexy young women. Seventy-two.

 

Warning: y'all should know what the black-out indicates...

 

 

I have an image of 72 hot chicks, all greased up in baby oil, writhing away in a massive lesbian orgy atop a giant pile of pillows. And forty feet above them, there I am on a high diving board preparing to take the plunge. And then I jump. "Here I come!!!! Bellyyyyy Flaaawwwwwwwp!!!!!!" I slam into the pillows and send a bunch of them tumbling into the air, shrieking and giggling with delight, and they land on... me. Since it's the afterlife I don't have to worry about being smothered or getting my ribs broken or whatever when the entire pile caves in on me.

 

 

...and now back to your regularly scheduled civil discourse.