A Sincere Apology

[Deva]

The OP at first is not interested in discussing anything in a thoughtful way, merely rendering an "apology" for others. Isn't the picture the OP posted enough in itself to make us all skeptical of her motives? Did you all see it? There is the Light leading all the poor storm-tossed people in the boat. There is plainly the "truth" which she is trying to lead us to. No thanks. There is not anything here that would lead to any sort of discussion that is not a complete waste of time IMO.

 

Wolf made her apology. Is that all? No. Now, as HereticZero points out its gotten onto a discussion of why hell is not real even though it is in the Bible. Why is one thing described in the Bible real and another not real? Pick and choose, interpretation. Well, many of us have decided there is nothing worthwile in it.

 

The OP speaks of "kindness and tolerance". As for kindness, sure, I'm all for it. I am working on it all the time. My response was much more restrained than it would have been even two years ago.

[chefranden]

A Lady Wolf in Sheep's Clothing?

 

I don't see that Ms. Wolf has exhibited signs of fundidumb yet. In rejecting hell she could be on her way to de-conversion. The very offer of an apology in this way rather than as a defense of church policy suggests that she may be at least unconsciously ashamed of the gospel. It could be that she could get her bearings and learn how to act among us so she doesn't get bitten in the ass so often.

 

It seems that a person has to at least start wondering what the purpose of a savior is when you know there is nothing to be saved from.

[florduh]

I am only here as she mentioned this forum in a few of her posts and how much it has helped her since leaving Christiantiy.

 

Hello, Lady Wolf.

 

As noted in your quoted remark, this site is for helping those who have escaped Christianity, in all its virulent forms.

 

The indoctrination (brainwashing) can take a toll on people who were vested in the religious community. We usually find that former church friends were not friends at all.

 

I, for one, assume your motives are good. Just don't forget why we're here. We've heard it, taught it, and preached it all before. I hope you will investigate further and see the ways we have come to conclude that Christianity is false.

[The-Captain]

Welcome to the forums Lady. You know you really don't have to apologize for other Christians, but I'm sure Maynoda would appreciate the gesture (and by extension so do I). If you do stick around, expect to be swamped with dialogue, the lion's have been a bit starved of late.

[white_raven23]

Welcome to the site Lady Wolf.

 

I will wait to see if you start pooping sermons before assuming you have religious motives for being here.

 

Some tips if you want to hang about:

 

1. The bible is not accepted as a factual archive depicting accurate events in history by most here. The book has some philisophical merits (as does the Tao Te Ching), but Lion lips start to pull back from the teeth when the book is treated as a tome of absolute truth.

 

2. This is one of few places on the 'net where folks can and will openly refute and 'talk back' to christians at all. There are those who may seem quite agressive towards you, but it's not personal. Religion has caused some pretty deep wounds in many here, and these folks need to get through all the stages of recovery on the way. One of those stages is Anger, and it's better to vent and snarl online than to suddenly go ballistic over a church invitation from a well meaning Great Aunt Martha in Real Life.

 

3. Want to make a good impression? Ask questions without being corrective or judgemental about the answers. Respond with understanding (not the same as agreeing, no one is required to agree...but understanding is paramount).

 

4. Don't assume ex-christian = strong atheist. It doesn't. Some folks have segued into other beliefs (some you may not have ever even heard of) in the journey of their deconversion. If you'd like someone to spell out where they stand personally, asking them is always better than assuming.

 

Again, Welcome to our little corner of the online world.

 

Party On!

 

:assshake:

[Abiyoyo]

Wolf made her apology. Is that all? No. Now, as HereticZero points out its gotten onto a discussion of why hell is not real even though it is in the Bible. Why is one thing described in the Bible real and another not real? Pick and choose, interpretation. Well, many of us have decided there is nothing worthwile in it.

 

Deva, in her defense. She did say earlier she would probably stick around for little bit :wink: ...Alright, carry on..Do your thing Deva.

 

Lady Wolf----Hmmm Ya know...if I didn't know better, I'd almost think you're afraid of me. Is this true? Afraid of little ole me?? LOL! But seriously..all joking aside, throw any labels you want on me. I stand by my character, and who knows, I might just stick around for a while, this place intrigues me;)

 

Oh, Welcome Lady Wolf, I'm the heretic resident Christian here

[Lady Wolf]

Wait...are you saying that my apology is disengenuous and fake, or Christianity in general?

 

Both -- but actually what I mostly had in mind was the "apology".

 

 

If Christianity in general, all I can tell you, is that unfortunately, one's beliefs and how others views them is in the eye of the beholder. I also think that it might not be wise to lump one's character with one's choice of religion;) We all stand or fall on our characters, and those same characters either mirror their beliefs, be they true beliefs or false.

 

Just don't even bother with the sincerity act. It won't fly here. You bet your bippy its in the eye of the beholder, but Christianity makes claims that are far beyond something like viewing a picture. If I lump character with a choice of religion, its only because of my personal experience with Christians.

 

I came here to apologize to one who was wrongfully persecuted and treated quite badly. Why? Because I disagreed with how she was treated and wanted her to know it.

 

Does that now mean you can leave?

 

I don't play nice lol, as a rule I try to be nice and show respect to everyone. Life is too short to creat negative energy and gain pleasure at the expense of another's pain don't you think? No fantasies here, just trying to show a little love and respect for my fellow man, or in this case woman;)

 

 

Wow!! You really have been hurt by Christianity haven't you. If so, I'm sincerely sorry for that. I myself came from a very controling religious background. I know how deep that can cut...look, I have no intention of prosylitizing on here to anyone, unless of course someone asks me a question about my beliefs. You all have been down that road, so what would be the point even, other than to sow strife and discord. You have absolutely nothing to fear from me, and I will refrain posting to you from here on, if that is your wish. I came here for the express purpose of offering an opology on behalf of others who didn't. I searched through the site looking for a forum where I would, at the very least be in mixed company. That's why I chose The Lion's Den...I figured there would be a few "lion tamers" as well as "lions." LOL! But all kidding aside, you have nothing to fear from me. I'm really not like that at all. I didn't even expect anyone to engage me in conversation, but when you all did, I decided to stick around for a bit. I hope that's alright? As for my picture I posted. I posted it because I didn't want there to be any mistake as to my beliefs. I find the picture comforting. My faith for me, is a light in this dark and confusing world, that's why I relate to that picture. I hope I've cleared up any misunderstandings and as I said, I will refrain from posting to you if that is your wish. Simply don't reply to this, and I'll just leave you alone as that seems to be what you want...I can respect that.

 

Blah, Blah,.....

 

Thanks for responding. Maynoda has seen my apology on the other forum and we are back in communication...life is good:D

 

So now you will leave?

[Antlerman]

Welcome to the site Lady Wolf.

 

I will wait to see if you start pooping sermons before assuming you have religious motives for being here.

 

Some tips if you want to hang about:

 

1. The bible is not accepted as a factual archive depicting accurate events in history by most here. The book has some philisophical merits (as does the Tao Te Ching), but Lion lips start to pull back from the teeth when the book is treated as a tome of absolute truth.

 

2. This is one of few places on the 'net where folks can and will openly refute and 'talk back' to christians at all. There are those who may seem quite agressive towards you, but it's not personal. Religion has caused some pretty deep wounds in many here, and these folks need to get through all the stages of recovery on the way. One of those stages is Anger, and it's better to vent and snarl online than to suddenly go ballistic over a church invitation from a well meaning Great Aunt Martha in Real Life.

 

3. Want to make a good impression? Ask questions without being corrective or judgemental about the answers. Respond with understanding (not the same as agreeing, no one is required to agree...but understanding is paramount).

 

4. Don't assume ex-christian = strong atheist. It doesn't. Some folks have segued into other beliefs (some you may not have ever even heard of) in the journey of their deconversion. If you'd like someone to spell out where they stand personally, asking them is always better than assuming.

 

Again, Welcome to our little corner of the online world.

 

Party On!

 

:assshake:

Nicely said WR.

 

Yes, by all means ask away Lady Wolf. I'm all about pluming all points of view about religious belief. I'm not an antagonist, just fascinated by the why and how of religious thought and love a good discussion about it with those who like to think about it as well, as opposed to just quoting standard responses. I don't disrespect all Christians, only those who behave badly using their religion as an excuse to justify their lack of effort on their part to understand people. I think we have more in common than not in this point of view about it.

[Lady Wolf]

Lady Wolf~

 

Please do understand that with this being a forum for people who have left Christianity, some here have developed a certain distrust of Christians who come here and may often interpret a Christian's first motive here as being to try to bring them back to Christianity. After all, members here have come here seeing this as a sanctuary, some having been scarred by mistreatment (which you have acknowledged).

 

While I personally do not mind constructive dialog here with a Christian, I just hope you keep in mind that there are those members here who tend to be suspicious of a Christian's motive here.

 

Of course, you will also find others who are more open to having a certain level of dialogue with Christians here as well.

 

Some are interested in being able to establish good relations. I certainly don't choose my neighbor's religion, but I certainly would like to be on good terms with my neighbors regardless of any difference in our beliefs.

 

<snip>

It's good to know that there are people such as yourself willing to extend an olive branch to a potentially harmful stranger. I can assure you I'm not and I have a deep respect for everyone's personal journey they're on, regardless of what form it takes. We all need to find our way do we not?

I appreciate Caretaker's words. I agree with them and they express my feelings as well. Everyone is at different places in their post-Christian experience (I liken it to the various stages of moving beyond a failed long-term relationship in ones life), others simply just dislike the views in general, perhaps never even having been involved themselves and are happy having nothing to do with it. There is no one-size fits all "believer" or "non-believer".

 

Personality for me, diversity is the name of the game, and my personality is one that isn't comfortable in becoming "comfortable" with any one set of beliefs as "the truth". There's truth in everything for me, just as there's error in everything. And I refuse to simply settle for trading one set of religious thought for another. There's too much in life to put up fences around it. And that explains why I left Christianity as a system and why I reject any system of thought that claims to be true because all others false. There's too much wonder and beauty in the world to plumb to put up walls around it, slapping labels on it as "true" or "false", motivated by a desire to be faithful to ones ideological camp.

 

Now that said, that you see the failings of those in your camp that you associate with as an embarrassment is telling to me on a certain level. You can correct me of course, but you seem to see how they behave as reflective of you on some level; that them acting as intolerant, suspicious, ill-mannered, unkind, stubborn, closed-minded, persecuting, in a word - religious, somehow weakens your beliefs by association. You don't see their behavior as reflective of what being Christian means to you and feel a need to defend the belief system by apologizing for those adherents to it whose behaviors don't reflect your beliefs within the same system.

 

Here's the point. That their behavior as a social group disturbs you reveals that your "faith" in it is in fact tied to it as a social system. Christianity is not really as much about a personal belief in God and your individual religious experience, as it is a social experience. Now, with that said, do you see that calling it "the truth", with the singular, exclusionary language, is really more a matter of symbolic rhetoric and not a factual thing? And that the insistence on that is really more about defining social camps, rather than establishing a basis for knowledge and understanding? I see no difference in the secular camp labeling and branding religious symbolic thought as "false". It's all about defining social groups, not pursuing knowledge and wisdom.

 

I'm hardly laying down much of a groundwork here for this, but I guess what I'm getting it is wanting to ask do you see that perhaps what you're seeing in the social group you're a part of that you see as faulted, might simply be symptomatic of a larger issue? That maybe its not a question of believing the truth, as it is about opening up our belief systems to allow for greater understandings? Do you think that the rhetoric of "the truth" in the singular is more problematic in this current culture than helpful? Do see your friend's bad behavior as reflective of greater problem, not just "fallen humanity", but a broken social system?

 

Not sure how well I put my thoughts together in this post, but I'll toss it out there and see if it sticks...

 

Hi Antlerman:)

 

This is a very deep post, let me give it a shot and see if I'm understanding you...I think that anyone can slap a label on themselves and then live how they're going to live and treat others how they're going to treat others regardless of whether or not the tennants of their beliefs support there actions. Does that make any sense? I felt compeled to come here to apologise for a wrong done to a non-Christian by people posing as Christians. I don't believe that Christ would have ever treated Maynoda the way those claiming to follow His ways treated her. In other words, I did not come here so much for apologetics of the religion, rather I came here to apologize on behalf of one who was treated quite badly and some damning labels slapped on her just because she didn't "fit in."

 

With that said, I think it's fair to point out that the forum this happened was not a Christian forum...far from it in fact. It is a conspiracy type of forum where pretty much anything and everything goes. It draws a lot of religion to it though because of it's name. But really anything and everything goes. Opinions are free to be discussed, debated, you name it. You've got to have a pretty thick skin to go there, because all though there are moderators to stop illegal acitivity, they pretty much let the discussions roam free. That's why Maynoda was as viciously attacked as she was, because that kind of thing is allowed to go on and visitors enter at your own risk! LOL! You guys are pretty tame in comparison;)

[Lady Wolf]

... I simply cannot reconcile that with a loving God. It makes absolutely no sense to me. A just god would have no reason to punish endlessly with no lesson to be learned from it. What would be the point beyond sadism?? And If I could never conceive of doing such a thing to my worst enemy...how can I be more just than my own creator? OTOH if you're not refering to the hell doctrin, than I'm afraid you've lost me lol! Then again, it's late and my brain's not working too well right now. Would you care to elaborate?

 

Oh oh, that's how Ex-Christianity starts. First you see one thing is absurd then it's another. After awhile it's the whole shebang. Welcome to Ex-Christian.

 

Thank you for the warm welcome:) I may have my doubts about certain things, and I'm not exactly what people refer to as a fundementalist, but I'm not ready to throw the baby out with the bathwater;)

[Deva]

Wow!! You really have been hurt by Christianity haven't you. If so, I'm sincerely sorry for that.

 

I don't need your sympathy, please take it elsewhere.

 

 

As for you YoYo:

[Lady Wolf]

A Lady Wolf in Sheep's Clothing?

 

I don't see that Ms. Wolf has exhibited signs of fundidumb yet. In rejecting hell she could be on her way to de-conversion. The very offer of an apology in this way rather than as a defense of church policy suggests that she may be at least unconsciously ashamed of the gospel. It could be that she could get her bearings and learn how to act among us so she doesn't get bitten in the ass so often.

 

It seems that a person has to at least start wondering what the purpose of a savior is when you know there is nothing to be saved from.

 

No, not ashamed of the gospel. Nothing to be ashamed of there imho. Ashamed of those who would wear the label of Christianity as a sword to weld distruction wherever they go, and when attacked back use the shield of self rightousness to defend their bad fruit/actions/character.

[Lady Wolf]

I am only here as she mentioned this forum in a few of her posts and how much it has helped her since leaving Christiantiy.

 

Hello, Lady Wolf.

 

As noted in your quoted remark, this site is for helping those who have escaped Christianity, in all its virulent forms.

 

The indoctrination (brainwashing) can take a toll on people who were vested in the religious community. We usually find that former church friends were not friends at all.

 

I, for one, assume your motives are good. Just don't forget why we're here. We've heard it, taught it, and preached it all before. I hope you will investigate further and see the ways we have come to conclude that Christianity is false.

 

Noted and understood...I may take you up on your offer and hang around for a bit and do some reading. Peace:)

[Lady Wolf]

Welcome to the forums Lady. You know you really don't have to apologize for other Christians, but I'm sure Maynoda would appreciate the gesture (and by extension so do I). If you do stick around, expect to be swamped with dialogue, the lion's have been a bit starved of late.

 

Thank you Doctor:) LOL!!! I see what you mean! hehehe, they probably wouldn't like the taste of me though, as I mostly consist of fruit, and as I understand they tend to be meat eaters don't they? But I'll let them have a little taste of me and then they can decide LOL! Nice kitties:D

[Dhampir]

Christianity as a sword

 

Matthew 10:34

"Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.

 

I don't think that's very relevant to much, I just wanted to note the similarity in the language you used to that verse.

 

At any rate, people do things all the time with good intentions that harm others. And you can cry about how you were just trying to help all day, but the bottom line is if someone doesn't appreciate it, they are well within their rights to do so. I am referring to your need to apologize for other's actions, especially considering that none of those other people apologized themselves. It is being lashed out against because it seems that you think that any other reasons a person leaves the faith are invalid, or un-thought out. That may not be the case with you, but typically, when someone proffers such an apology (and it does happen a lot around here) that's the underlying belief.

 

 

 

QUOTE (chefranden @ Mar 10 2009, 11:34 AM) *

A Lady Wolf in Sheep's Clothing?

 

I don't see that Ms. Wolf has exhibited signs of fundidumb yet. In rejecting hell she could be on her way to de-conversion. The very offer of an apology in this way rather than as a defense of church policy suggests that she may be at least unconsciously ashamed of the gospel. It could be that she could get her bearings and learn how to act among us so she doesn't get bitten in the ass so often.

 

It seems that a person has to at least start wondering what the purpose of a savior is when you know there is nothing to be saved from.

 

 

No, not ashamed of the gospel. Nothing to be ashamed of there imho. Ashamed of those who would wear the label of Christianity as a sword to weld distruction wherever they go, and when attacked back use the shield of self rightousness to defend their bad fruit/actions/character.

 

Anyway, I think you are a little too quick to respond. That's one of the reasons people don't see the points we're trying to get across. Instead of responding as quickly as you do, I think you should actually consider it for a few days. After all, the preceding was said by Chef in response to your rejection of... a part of the gospel, and you snap back immediately that there's nothing to be ashamed of in that same gospel. Might be a little knee-jerk if you think about it. That being said, do not respond to this immediately. You'll just be proving my point.

[Guest end3]

Oh oh, that's how Ex-Christianity starts. First you see one thing is absurd then it's another. After awhile it's the whole shebang. Welcome to Ex-Christian.

 

Sometimes I think I almost bought the t-shirt.....leave now lady before it's too late!

[Lady Wolf]

Welcome to the site Lady Wolf.

 

I will wait to see if you start pooping sermons before assuming you have religious motives for being here.

 

Some tips if you want to hang about:

 

1. The bible is not accepted as a factual archive depicting accurate events in history by most here. The book has some philisophical merits (as does the Tao Te Ching), but Lion lips start to pull back from the teeth when the book is treated as a tome of absolute truth.

 

2. This is one of few places on the 'net where folks can and will openly refute and 'talk back' to christians at all. There are those who may seem quite agressive towards you, but it's not personal. Religion has caused some pretty deep wounds in many here, and these folks need to get through all the stages of recovery on the way. One of those stages is Anger, and it's better to vent and snarl online than to suddenly go ballistic over a church invitation from a well meaning Great Aunt Martha in Real Life.

 

3. Want to make a good impression? Ask questions without being corrective or judgemental about the answers. Respond with understanding (not the same as agreeing, no one is required to agree...but understanding is paramount).

 

4. Don't assume ex-christian = strong atheist. It doesn't. Some folks have segued into other beliefs (some you may not have ever even heard of) in the journey of their deconversion. If you'd like someone to spell out where they stand personally, asking them is always better than assuming.

 

Again, Welcome to our little corner of the online world.

 

Party On!

 

:assshake:

 

Hi White Raven and thank you for the warm welcome and the tips. I'll begin by addressing each one, this might be the best and quickest way for others to know what I stand on as a Christian.

 

1. I have many struggles with the cannon of 66 that Christianity holds to be God's word. The reason why, is because of the glaring differences in God between the OT and the NT. Either He is two different people, or he is bi-polar...or what is written down comes from a controling agenda. With that said, I also believe there are many thing in this book that we can learn from and especially in the NT. There is much to be gleaned on how to love each other and live our lives as peacefully and with fairness and justice as we can. I also don't hold to the innerancy of it, simply because I have seen in my own life time the many different translations that have come about. Especially the interpretive ones! Common sense tells me that if the Bible can change this much just in my short life span, I KNOW it has changed much more than that before I was even thought of.

 

Speaking of common sense, I hold to beliefs that within that framework. I'm not talking about science vs. supernaturel or things of the physical nature, rather I'm speaking to straight common sense as it pertains to how one thing holds up against another. If it doesn't hold water, I simply don't believe it. Of course, this is after careful study and much prayer about it, but I don't hold to things that don't have any common sense. Such as the docrin of Hell as most of Christianity views it. Why would God punish for all eternity? What would be the point? Even Jesus when He descended into Hell was only there for 3 days. If He was supposed to take our punishment, then He would still be there would He not? Now that does not mean that I don't believe in a JUST God who will somehow reconcile sin with justice.

 

2. I agree and feel free to snarl away, but if the teeth get to close, I might have to do a bit of scratching behind those ears to get that motor going again;)

 

3. I'm all for agreeing to disagree. I think that is one of the most peaceful statements in the world. I just wish more relgions and people would ecompass it. We're all on our own journeys and we're all at different places on those journeys. Respect and tolerance is a must for all religions. As long as those religions remain within the framework of human and civil rights.

 

4. Thank you, I'll keep that in mind. LOL! Mainstream Christianiaity would probably see me as NOT a "true" Christian based on my doctrinal stand or should I say lack thereof? But I'm not about emulating labels...rather I'm about retaining what I know to be true based on personal experience, and searching for "the rest of the story" as Paul Harvey would say, may he RIP. The world lost a beautiful soul when he passed. It is truly our loss...

[Lady Wolf]

Wolf made her apology. Is that all? No. Now, as HereticZero points out its gotten onto a discussion of why hell is not real even though it is in the Bible. Why is one thing described in the Bible real and another not real? Pick and choose, interpretation. Well, many of us have decided there is nothing worthwile in it.

 

Deva, in her defense. She did say earlier she would probably stick around for little bit :wink: ...Alright, carry on..Do your thing Deva.

 

Lady Wolf----Hmmm Ya know...if I didn't know better, I'd almost think you're afraid of me. Is this true? Afraid of little ole me?? LOL! But seriously..all joking aside, throw any labels you want on me. I stand by my character, and who knows, I might just stick around for a while, this place intrigues me;)

 

Oh, Welcome Lady Wolf, I'm the heretic resident Christian here

 

Hello, I really like your avatar! But I'd like it even more if it said, "he wants his truth back." Sadly religion has muddied the water so much that His true message has been all but lost I'm afraid:( Much like the Pharisese muddied the old law to the point that it became so legalistic noone could follow it. I'm afraid that we will never learn. :sigh:

[Lady Wolf]

Welcome to the site Lady Wolf.

 

I will wait to see if you start pooping sermons before assuming you have religious motives for being here.

 

Some tips if you want to hang about:

 

1. The bible is not accepted as a factual archive depicting accurate events in history by most here. The book has some philisophical merits (as does the Tao Te Ching), but Lion lips start to pull back from the teeth when the book is treated as a tome of absolute truth.

 

2. This is one of few places on the 'net where folks can and will openly refute and 'talk back' to christians at all. There are those who may seem quite agressive towards you, but it's not personal. Religion has caused some pretty deep wounds in many here, and these folks need to get through all the stages of recovery on the way. One of those stages is Anger, and it's better to vent and snarl online than to suddenly go ballistic over a church invitation from a well meaning Great Aunt Martha in Real Life.

 

3. Want to make a good impression? Ask questions without being corrective or judgemental about the answers. Respond with understanding (not the same as agreeing, no one is required to agree...but understanding is paramount).

 

4. Don't assume ex-christian = strong atheist. It doesn't. Some folks have segued into other beliefs (some you may not have ever even heard of) in the journey of their deconversion. If you'd like someone to spell out where they stand personally, asking them is always better than assuming.

 

Again, Welcome to our little corner of the online world.

 

Party On!

 

:assshake:

Nicely said WR.

 

Yes, by all means ask away Lady Wolf. I'm all about pluming all points of view about religious belief. I'm not an antagonist, just fascinated by the why and how of religious thought and love a good discussion about it with those who like to think about it as well, as opposed to just quoting standard responses. I don't disrespect all Christians, only those who behave badly using their religion as an excuse to justify their lack of effort on their part to understand people. I think we have more in common than not in this point of view about it.

 

In that case, you and I are going to get along just fine. While I do hold to certain beliefs, those beliefs are rock solid to me based upon personal spiritual experience. I think that it's very important to weigh everything doctrinal against common sense and guidance through prayer, and that goes for whatever diety you believe in. Anyone can say anything, but that doesn't necessariy make it so. Again, I'm speaking to doctrinal views, and not so much the physical laws of nature on this planet. I do believe in the super naturel, miracles, broken laws of nature etc. But when it comes to beliefs in general such as doctrinal viewpoints, it needs to add up, or I'm not buying into it. I too have been hurt/misled by controling religions. I'm still searching for a church home, and I'm begining to believe that such a thing no longer exists. If I'm wrong and it does, I know that He will lead me to it. Until then, I enjoy bouncing ideas off of people who also like to bounce ideas;)

[Lady Wolf]

Christianity as a sword

 

Matthew 10:34

"Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.

 

I don't think that's very relevant to much, I just wanted to note the similarity in the language you used to that verse.

 

At any rate, people do things all the time with good intentions that harm others. And you can cry about how you were just trying to help all day, but the bottom line is if someone doesn't appreciate it, they are well within their rights to do so. I am referring to your need to apologize for other's actions, especially considering that none of those other people apologized themselves. It is being lashed out against because it seems that you think that any other reasons a person leaves the faith are invalid, or un-thought out. That may not be the case with you, but typically, when someone proffers such an apology (and it does happen a lot around here) that's the underlying belief.

 

 

 

QUOTE (chefranden @ Mar 10 2009, 11:34 AM) *

A Lady Wolf in Sheep's Clothing?

 

I don't see that Ms. Wolf has exhibited signs of fundidumb yet. In rejecting hell she could be on her way to de-conversion. The very offer of an apology in this way rather than as a defense of church policy suggests that she may be at least unconsciously ashamed of the gospel. It could be that she could get her bearings and learn how to act among us so she doesn't get bitten in the ass so often.

 

It seems that a person has to at least start wondering what the purpose of a savior is when you know there is nothing to be saved from.

 

 

No, not ashamed of the gospel. Nothing to be ashamed of there imho. Ashamed of those who would wear the label of Christianity as a sword to weld distruction wherever they go, and when attacked back use the shield of self rightousness to defend their bad fruit/actions/character.

 

Anyway, I think you are a little too quick to respond. That's one of the reasons people don't see the points we're trying to get across. Instead of responding as quickly as you do, I think you should actually consider it for a few days. After all, the preceding was said by Chef in response to your rejection of... a part of the gospel, and you snap back immediately that there's nothing to be ashamed of in that same gospel. Might be a little knee-jerk if you think about it. That being said, do not respond to this immediately. You'll just be proving my point.

 

While I can appreciate your admonishment to think about things before responding, I believe I know my own mind better than others who have only just met me.

 

As to my statement about welding the sword. I purposely used it, because I wanted to imply that some Christians take that particular verse as an excuse as well as downright divine permission to be nasty and cruel to others. countless wars have been waged over that verse alone. It reminds me of why I hate the old hymn "Onward Christian Soldiers" again common sense, how can one love one's enemy, turn the other cheek, do good to them who hate you, and then battle and slaughter them in war. Makes no sense. You are either loving, and tolerant, or you are devisive and hateful. You can't have it both ways...Whether or not it is a true statement or one put into the cannon of the 66 to sow discord remains to be seen. Perhapse it was misinterpreted and then in turn, mistranslated. I don't know, but I used it in this case to prove a point.

[Lady Wolf]

Oh oh, that's how Ex-Christianity starts. First you see one thing is absurd then it's another. After awhile it's the whole shebang. Welcome to Ex-Christian.

 

Sometimes I think I almost bought the t-shirt.....leave now lady before it's too late!

 

Hello end 3 LOL! warning noted, however I think I might stick around for a bit. I'm rather enjoying getting to know all of you:) Is that your little guy in your avatar? What a cutie! "I can too drive!" Reminds me of my oldest. At the age of 4 she wanted to drive and she knew how! And no one could tell her otherwise hehehe 21 now and hasn't changed a bit! She's a real type A personality. She's been a real blessing to us:) She's in college now majoring in nursing. Wants to become a flight nurse and believe you me she'll do it too! I pity the first doctor who crosses her path! LOL!!!

[Abiyoyo]

As for you YoYo:

 

:tongue:

[Antlerman]

In that case, you and I are going to get along just fine. While I do hold to certain beliefs, those beliefs are rock solid to me based upon personal spiritual experience. I think that it's very important to weigh everything doctrinal against common sense and guidance through prayer, and that goes for whatever diety you believe in. Anyone can say anything, but that doesn't necessariy make it so. Again, I'm speaking to doctrinal views, and not so much the physical laws of nature on this planet. I do believe in the super naturel, miracles, broken laws of nature etc. But when it comes to beliefs in general such as doctrinal viewpoints, it needs to add up, or I'm not buying into it. I too have been hurt/misled by controling religions. I'm still searching for a church home, and I'm begining to believe that such a thing no longer exists. If I'm wrong and it does, I know that He will lead me to it. Until then, I enjoy bouncing ideas off of people who also like to bounce ideas;)

Yeah, I suspected so from your first post. I'm a pretty instant judge of someone's integrity, or lack of it. I didn't have any concerns about your sincerity. I'm looking forward to opening some healthy discussion with you, but be prepared to being stretched a bit...

 

I'm hoping to offer a good response later to other your points, but wanted to say to your last few sentences above, that oddly I very much understand exactly what you mean. In short, for me it all centers around being sincere. It's about loving knowledge and truth above the worship of belief. And in the beginning of this long journey of my own, it began with saying to myself, that if God were to judge me for breaking with the beliefs that were part of my church at the time, that I trusted that I would be judged on the integrity of my heart and its desire to honor truth. In everything since that has continued to be the center of path, even though what I believe now essentially challenges every core doctrine of historic Christian belief. Yet even though I may not believe in an actual deity, my beliefs do not disrespect the heart of why most people believe for reasons of finding meaning to the questions of existence. Its in that recognition, that I am able to bridge that gap to meet people as humans. In short, its language systems. Symbolic words that represent a common heart. That does not mean however that I accept the heart behind the antagonist uses of the symbols.

 

Just a couple quick thoughts to ponder until later....

[Neon Genesis]

Speaking of common sense, I hold to beliefs that within that framework. I'm not talking about science vs. supernaturel or things of the physical nature, rather I'm speaking to straight common sense as it pertains to how one thing holds up against another. If it doesn't hold water, I simply don't believe it. Of course, this is after careful study and much prayer about it, but I don't hold to things that don't have any common sense. Such as the docrin of Hell as most of Christianity views it. Why would God punish for all eternity? What would be the point? Even Jesus when He descended into Hell was only there for 3 days. If He was supposed to take our punishment, then He would still be there would He not? Now that does not mean that I don't believe in a JUST God who will somehow reconcile sin with justice.

I have several questions. First, where in the bible does it say Jesus went to hell at all? I'm not aware of any such scriptures in the bible and I'm pretty sure that was just some doctrine the Catholic church made up. Second of all, if you don't believe in eternal hell, do you believe in a temporary hell? Third, how do you define what sin is? As for your opening post, your motivations may be sincere, but as already pointed out, an apology doesn't mean much if it doesn't come from the person that did the injustice. I also think that the phrase "unChristian" has pretty much become useless at this point because it seems like most Christians accuse the other Christians of being "unChristian" when they do things that they don't agree with. But unfortunately, nobody knows for certain what Jesus really meant when he preached his gospel, so it's all a matter of faith as to how you interpret scriptures and decide what counts as "unChristian", which doesn't mean much to non-Christians. Also, when people say an immoral action is "unChristian", it has the tendency to make it sound like you think this behavior is characteristic of people who are non-Christians. This isn't to say that's what you intended. I'm just saying that the phrase "unChristian" is meaningless at this point and can be taken to seem offensive, even though you may not mean it that way. If you believe something was done that was unjust, why not believe it was unjust because it was unjust? Not because it was unChristian? Again, I'm not saying you may have ill intentions, I'm just saying these phrases like that don't mean much anymore. But welcome to the forums!

[Vixentrox]

I think she is sincere in her own mind about the apology though it's also misguided to some degree. I also don't think it matters a whole lot. The majority of us on this site have been Christians, been wronged by Christians, and have been victimized by it, and have been on the other side of the patronizing of things for which we regret. The apology about "un-Christian" like behavior is kinda like an SS doctor apologizing for the horrible train ride to the death camps but then selecting them for the gas chamber anyway. Christians often apologize for the "fake Christians" without even understanding that to some other sect, they themselves are the "fake Christians".

 

Hmmm interesting way of viewing a sincere apology. If you are using gas chamber as a euphamism to describe the hell doctrin that many Christians stand by, than you would be wrong. I myself have many questions about Hell. I don't hold to the place of eternal torture that many do. I simply cannot reconcile that with a loving God. It makes absolutely no sense to me. A just god would have no reason to punish endlessly with no lesson to be learned from it. What would be the point beyond sadism?? And If I could never conceive of doing such a thing to my worst enemy...how can I be more just than my own creator? OTOH if you're not refering to the hell doctrin, than I'm afraid you've lost me lol! Then again, it's late and my brain's not working too well right now. Would you care to elaborate?

If you do not believe in hell, what do you need to be saved from? Why a savior? Could you concieve of the other atrocities your god committed in the Old Testament? If Jesus and the Father are one then Jesus is just as guilty of the crimes is he not? Or do you also reject that Trinity doctorine? Are you even sure you are a Christian and not some sort of cultist heritic?