A Sincere Apology

[chefranden]

...First, where in the bible does it say Jesus went to hell at all? I'm not aware of any such scriptures in the bible and I'm pretty sure that was just some doctrine the Catholic church made up...

 

When the creed is explained, the descent into hell refers only to the grave. That clause is a declaration of belief that Jesus was really dead, before his resurrection. Or anyway that's what I remember.

[Thackerie]

...First, where in the bible does it say Jesus went to hell at all? I'm not aware of any such scriptures in the bible and I'm pretty sure that was just some doctrine the Catholic church made up...

 

When the creed is explained, the descent into hell refers only to the grave. That clause is a declaration of belief that Jesus was really dead, before his resurrection. Or anyway that's what I remember.

 

I am, apparently, in a weird mood today. As soon as I read the above, I thought of one of the songs from the classic Wizard of Oz movie:

 

"Not only is he merely dead;

he truly is sincerely dead."

 

OK, I'll go now and try to find something more productive to do.

[GypsyMoon]

This topic is really confusing to read.

[freeday]

If you do not believe in hell, what do you need to be saved from? Why a savior? Could you concieve of the other atrocities your god committed in the Old Testament? If Jesus and the Father are one then Jesus is just as guilty of the crimes is he not? Or do you also reject that Trinity doctorine? Are you even sure you are a Christian and not some sort of cultist heritic?

 

Our own hedonism and egocentrism. I feel altruism benefits the self and society as a whole. Would you not agree?

[Dhampir]

While I can appreciate your admonishment to think about things before responding, I believe I know my own mind better than others who have only just met me.

No one knows how you're going to look at things once you've considered them for a long time, not even you-- That's why I said don't respond to me immediately. It's got nothing to do with what others think, though some of us do have a clue how you might see things once you've confronted in your own thoughts the ideas laid before you.

 

What I'm concerned about is the very human, particularly christian propensity toward considering something for a short time, and then quickly giving an answer so that you never have to think about it again.

[freeday]

Oh oh, that's how Ex-Christianity starts. First you see one thing is absurd then it's another. After awhile it's the whole shebang. Welcome to Ex-Christian.

 

Sometimes I think I almost bought the t-shirt.....leave now lady before it's too late!

 

Hello end 3 LOL! warning noted, however I think I might stick around for a bit. I'm rather enjoying getting to know all of you:) Is that your little guy in your avatar? What a cutie! "I can too drive!" Reminds me of my oldest. At the age of 4 she wanted to drive and she knew how! And no one could tell her otherwise hehehe 21 now and hasn't changed a bit! She's a real type A personality. She's been a real blessing to us:) She's in college now majoring in nursing. Wants to become a flight nurse and believe you me she'll do it too! I pity the first doctor who crosses her path! LOL!!!

 

 

leave now before you are an ex-christian, they are exceptionally persuasive with their loquacious dialectic. I only remain a christian by hiding in seclusion and reading the Bible to abrogate their philosophy.

 

Also, nursing is a great field of choice.

[centauri]

I have several questions. First, where in the bible does it say Jesus went to hell at all? I'm not aware of any such scriptures in the bible and I'm pretty sure that was just some doctrine the Catholic church made up.

 

I believe the basis for that comes from this:

1 Peter 3:18-20

For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

 

It doesn't actually say he went to hell but to a place where souls were being held.

This prison then gets extrapolated into hell.

[Vixentrox]

If you do not believe in hell, what do you need to be saved from? Why a savior? Could you concieve of the other atrocities your god committed in the Old Testament? If Jesus and the Father are one then Jesus is just as guilty of the crimes is he not? Or do you also reject that Trinity doctorine? Are you even sure you are a Christian and not some sort of cultist heritic?

 

Our own hedonism and egocentrism. I feel altruism benefits the self and society as a whole. Would you not agree?

Christians have ownership of altrusim now? What a laugh. They are usually not even very good at being altruist through history.

[chefranden]

If you do not believe in hell, what do you need to be saved from? Why a savior? Could you concieve of the other atrocities your god committed in the Old Testament? If Jesus and the Father are one then Jesus is just as guilty of the crimes is he not? Or do you also reject that Trinity doctorine? Are you even sure you are a Christian and not some sort of cultist heritic?

 

Our own hedonism and egocentrism. I feel altruism benefits the self and society as a whole. Would you not agree?

 

How does that work? How does Jesus save one from hedonism and egocentrism? What good does it do to be free of hedonism and egocentrism in heaven? I know that Jesus does nothing about these things here. What would be the point of being altruistic in heaven? Everything is taken care of there, isn't it? Rather than waiting for everyone to be altruistic, why doesn't God just see that everyone has enough? He owns all the stuff, right? Other than the touchy feelly stuff that folks of any religion often experience -- where is God/Jesus evident as a savior?

[Lady Wolf]

In that case, you and I are going to get along just fine. While I do hold to certain beliefs, those beliefs are rock solid to me based upon personal spiritual experience. I think that it's very important to weigh everything doctrinal against common sense and guidance through prayer, and that goes for whatever diety you believe in. Anyone can say anything, but that doesn't necessariy make it so. Again, I'm speaking to doctrinal views, and not so much the physical laws of nature on this planet. I do believe in the super naturel, miracles, broken laws of nature etc. But when it comes to beliefs in general such as doctrinal viewpoints, it needs to add up, or I'm not buying into it. I too have been hurt/misled by controling religions. I'm still searching for a church home, and I'm begining to believe that such a thing no longer exists. If I'm wrong and it does, I know that He will lead me to it. Until then, I enjoy bouncing ideas off of people who also like to bounce ideas;)

Yeah, I suspected so from your first post. I'm a pretty instant judge of someone's integrity, or lack of it. I didn't have any concerns about your sincerity. I'm looking forward to opening some healthy discussion with you, but be prepared to being stretched a bit...

 

I'm hoping to offer a good response later to other your points, but wanted to say to your last few sentences above, that oddly I very much understand exactly what you mean. In short, for me it all centers around being sincere. It's about loving knowledge and truth above the worship of belief. And in the beginning of this long journey of my own, it began with saying to myself, that if God were to judge me for breaking with the beliefs that were part of my church at the time, that I trusted that I would be judged on the integrity of my heart and its desire to honor truth. In everything since that has continued to be the center of path, even though what I believe now essentially challenges every core doctrine of historic Christian belief. Yet even though I may not believe in an actual deity, my beliefs do not disrespect the heart of why most people believe for reasons of finding meaning to the questions of existence. Its in that recognition, that I am able to bridge that gap to meet people as humans. In short, its language systems. Symbolic words that represent a common heart. That does not mean however that I accept the heart behind the antagonist uses of the symbols.

 

Just a couple quick thoughts to ponder until later....

 

I'm looking forward to thost discussions! I love to learn new things and to "stretch" my mind, to use your word lol. Interesting word and I believe it fits well;) Is that you in your avatar? Where are you from? I'm from the US and I live in Northern CA. Looking forward to your response to my points.

[Lady Wolf]

Speaking of common sense, I hold to beliefs that within that framework. I'm not talking about science vs. supernaturel or things of the physical nature, rather I'm speaking to straight common sense as it pertains to how one thing holds up against another. If it doesn't hold water, I simply don't believe it. Of course, this is after careful study and much prayer about it, but I don't hold to things that don't have any common sense. Such as the docrin of Hell as most of Christianity views it. Why would God punish for all eternity? What would be the point? Even Jesus when He descended into Hell was only there for 3 days. If He was supposed to take our punishment, then He would still be there would He not? Now that does not mean that I don't believe in a JUST God who will somehow reconcile sin with justice.

I have several questions. First, where in the bible does it say Jesus went to hell at all? I'm not aware of any such scriptures in the bible and I'm pretty sure that was just some doctrine the Catholic church made up. Second of all, if you don't believe in eternal hell, do you believe in a temporary hell? Third, how do you define what sin is? As for your opening post, your motivations may be sincere, but as already pointed out, an apology doesn't mean much if it doesn't come from the person that did the injustice. I also think that the phrase "unChristian" has pretty much become useless at this point because it seems like most Christians accuse the other Christians of being "unChristian" when they do things that they don't agree with. But unfortunately, nobody knows for certain what Jesus really meant when he preached his gospel, so it's all a matter of faith as to how you interpret scriptures and decide what counts as "unChristian", which doesn't mean much to non-Christians. Also, when people say an immoral action is "unChristian", it has the tendency to make it sound like you think this behavior is characteristic of people who are non-Christians. This isn't to say that's what you intended. I'm just saying that the phrase "unChristian" is meaningless at this point and can be taken to seem offensive, even though you may not mean it that way. If you believe something was done that was unjust, why not believe it was unjust because it was unjust? Not because it was unChristian? Again, I'm not saying you may have ill intentions, I'm just saying these phrases like that don't mean much anymore. But welcome to the forums!

 

 

Speaking of common sense, I hold to beliefs that within that framework. I'm not talking about science vs. supernaturel or things of the physical nature, rather I'm speaking to straight common sense as it pertains to how one thing holds up against another. If it doesn't hold water, I simply don't believe it. Of course, this is after careful study and much prayer about it, but I don't hold to things that don't have any common sense. Such as the docrin of Hell as most of Christianity views it. Why would God punish for all eternity? What would be the point? Even Jesus when He descended into Hell was only there for 3 days. If He was supposed to take our punishment, then He would still be there would He not? Now that does not mean that I don't believe in a JUST God who will somehow reconcile sin with justice.

I have several questions. First, where in the bible does it say Jesus went to hell at all? I'm not aware of any such scriptures in the bible and I'm pretty sure that was just some doctrine the Catholic church made up. Second of all, if you don't believe in eternal hell, do you believe in a temporary hell? Third, how do you define what sin is? As for your opening post, your motivations may be sincere, but as already pointed out, an apology doesn't mean much if it doesn't come from the person that did the injustice. I also think that the phrase "unChristian" has pretty much become useless at this point because it seems like most Christians accuse the other Christians of being "unChristian" when they do things that they don't agree with. But unfortunately, nobody knows for certain what Jesus really meant when he preached his gospel, so it's all a matter of faith as to how you interpret scriptures and decide what counts as "unChristian", which doesn't mean much to non-Christians. Also, when people say an immoral action is "unChristian", it has the tendency to make it sound like you think this behavior is characteristic of people who are non-Christians. This isn't to say that's what you intended. I'm just saying that the phrase "unChristian" is meaningless at this point and can be taken to seem offensive, even though you may not mean it that way. If you believe something was done that was unjust, why not believe it was unjust because it was unjust? Not because it was unChristian? Again, I'm not saying you may have ill intentions, I'm just saying these phrases like that don't mean much anymore. But welcome to the forums!

 

Hello Neon and thank you for the warm welcome:)

 

I can appreciate your questions, and I'll do my best to answer them. Please keep in mind though that I am no expert scholar on the matters of biblical doctrin, rather I am still in the process of learning...but arn't we all?

 

Please allow me to c/p a few things to help with your questions about Christ descending into Hell after His crucifixion...

 

The following is taken from a poster at Yahoo.com:

 

The Apostles’ and the Athanasian Creeds both confess Christ’s Descent into Hell. However, the Descent was not into torment, since the payment for our sins was completed on the cross. This is why Jesus could say, “It is finished.” His true agony was expressed in the words, “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me? (Mt 27:46)” Jesus’ quote from Psalm 22 underscores the seriousness with which God views human transgression. He made Jesus, who knew no sin, to be sin for us (cf. 2 Cor 5:21) — and He then punished that sin with ruthlessness. Being abandoned by God must be the greatest torment that even Hell has to offer, yet Jesus willingly accepted this to bring us reconciliation with his Father.

 

Edit by me: (Wow!! I never understood why God the Father turned away from His Son during His Son's weakest point in His suffering! I thought to myself, how could a parent do that?? Even at my own son's circumcision I insisted on being there and going through it with him even though it about killed me see him being hurt like that! The doctor even told me that he was a surprised I wanted to be there, as most parents wanted no part of it!) But it makes perfect sense to me! If Hell was all about complete and total separation from God, then that is what Jesus had to endure, because that is OUR punishment. And if He was the sacrificial lamb, than the sacrifice had to be completely satisfied.

 

Here are some other texts and comments on the subject from that same site:

 

1 Peter 3:18-22 directly addresses the event: “For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit, in which he went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison, because they formerly did not obey, when God’s patience waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through water. Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers having been subjected to him.”

 

Here is another verse that speaks to the subject:

 

Matt 12:40, (cf Luke 11) “for as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the whale; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.” (if this speaks to his physical body it would not makes sense, because the tomb he was laid in, was above ground and certainly wasn't in "the heart of the earth.")

 

I do believe in Hell or a place of punishment for the wicked, but I don't believe it is eternal as far as how long it lasts. I think that it is based on each person's life and how they lived it here on Earth. If God is a "just" god as we are told all through out the Bible that He is, then it is the only thing that makes sense. A just god would not punish someone without end imho.

 

To me, sin means anything that is contrary to God's new testament law of "Love the Lord thy God with all thy heart and all thy soul and all thy might, and love one another."

 

To me, The Gospel, is all about the redemption of sin through Christ's death and resurection.

 

As to your comments regarding my calling how Maynoda was treated as UnChristian...I have to say that I agree with you. I didn't see how this could sound offensive to non-Christians and I'm glad you pointed this out to me. You are right, amoral is amoral, regardless of one's beliefs. Point taken.

 

I hope I have answered all of your questions, as I said, I'm certainly no scholar and I'm just stumbling along like many others;)

[Lady Wolf]

I think she is sincere in her own mind about the apology though it's also misguided to some degree. I also don't think it matters a whole lot. The majority of us on this site have been Christians, been wronged by Christians, and have been victimized by it, and have been on the other side of the patronizing of things for which we regret. The apology about "un-Christian" like behavior is kinda like an SS doctor apologizing for the horrible train ride to the death camps but then selecting them for the gas chamber anyway. Christians often apologize for the "fake Christians" without even understanding that to some other sect, they themselves are the "fake Christians".

 

Hmmm interesting way of viewing a sincere apology. If you are using gas chamber as a euphamism to describe the hell doctrin that many Christians stand by, than you would be wrong. I myself have many questions about Hell. I don't hold to the place of eternal torture that many do. I simply cannot reconcile that with a loving God. It makes absolutely no sense to me. A just god would have no reason to punish endlessly with no lesson to be learned from it. What would be the point beyond sadism?? And If I could never conceive of doing such a thing to my worst enemy...how can I be more just than my own creator? OTOH if you're not refering to the hell doctrin, than I'm afraid you've lost me lol! Then again, it's late and my brain's not working too well right now. Would you care to elaborate?

If you do not believe in hell, what do you need to be saved from? Why a savior? Could you concieve of the other atrocities your god committed in the Old Testament? If Jesus and the Father are one then Jesus is just as guilty of the crimes is he not? Or do you also reject that Trinity doctorine? Are you even sure you are a Christian and not some sort of cultist heritic?

 

Good questions! LOL...to be completely honest with you, I'm not comfortable with labels. I call myself a Christian, because I believe in Jesus Christ. I may not know or understand much of what is in the Bible as I've already pointed out on here I believe, but I'm not about to throw the baby out with the bathwater simply because I don't understand it all at this point in my life. I am, however, willing to keep searching for the truth...

 

with that said, I'll try to answer your questions.

 

Salvation is about being saved from being eternally separated from God. Regardless of the form that takes, either punishment and then inihilation, or just eternal separation in a spiritually separate place. Does not sound like a state or place I would want to be in, that is for certain!

 

I believe, the question about why a Savior speaks to the first question of needing salvation. Aside from that, According to the tennants of Christianity and what is written in the Bible, I, in my fallen state, can not save myself. My rightousness is like filthy rags to God. And that is speaking about my best efforts! That is why a holy sacrifice had to be satisfied in my stead.

 

I accept the Trinity doctrin.

 

I'm always searching, always learning and always growing. I am an imperfect and sinful creature. I acknowlege it and I accept it. But I also acknowlege and accept the divine plan for my redemption from this curse.

[Lady Wolf]

While I can appreciate your admonishment to think about things before responding, I believe I know my own mind better than others who have only just met me.

No one knows how you're going to look at things once you've considered them for a long time, not even you-- That's why I said don't respond to me immediately. It's got nothing to do with what others think, though some of us do have a clue how you might see things once you've confronted in your own thoughts the ideas laid before you.

 

What I'm concerned about is the very human, particularly christian propensity toward considering something for a short time, and then quickly giving an answer so that you never have to think about it again.

 

Thank you for explaining this to me. With respect your reply to me before seemed more on the antagonistic side. Perhaps I was projecting?

[white_raven23]

If Hell was all about complete and total separation from God, then that is what Jesus had to endure, because that is OUR punishment. And if He was the sacrificial lamb, than the sacrifice had to be completely satisfied.

 

Incorrect. OUR punishment (based on the doctrine) is eternal suffering. When we die....we tend to stay dead. There was no true sacrifice at all in the story. There was a three day "inconvenience". The character jesus does not stay dead, he returns to life then ascends to heaven returning to his father. Or is the 33 years of Jesus existing on earth supposed to be the sacrifice? Still doesn't add up to eternity.

 

How does three days in hell = a sacrifice completely satisfied? Common lambs, doves, and oxen of the era endured a more complete sacrificial procedure than the jesus character does.

 

There was no sacrifice at all...unless writers choose to distort the meaning of words and encourage their followers to do likewise...which they do.

[Vixentrox]

I think she is sincere in her own mind about the apology though it's also misguided to some degree. I also don't think it matters a whole lot. The majority of us on this site have been Christians, been wronged by Christians, and have been victimized by it, and have been on the other side of the patronizing of things for which we regret. The apology about "un-Christian" like behavior is kinda like an SS doctor apologizing for the horrible train ride to the death camps but then selecting them for the gas chamber anyway. Christians often apologize for the "fake Christians" without even understanding that to some other sect, they themselves are the "fake Christians".

 

Hmmm interesting way of viewing a sincere apology. If you are using gas chamber as a euphamism to describe the hell doctrin that many Christians stand by, than you would be wrong. I myself have many questions about Hell. I don't hold to the place of eternal torture that many do. I simply cannot reconcile that with a loving God. It makes absolutely no sense to me. A just god would have no reason to punish endlessly with no lesson to be learned from it. What would be the point beyond sadism?? And If I could never conceive of doing such a thing to my worst enemy...how can I be more just than my own creator? OTOH if you're not refering to the hell doctrin, than I'm afraid you've lost me lol! Then again, it's late and my brain's not working too well right now. Would you care to elaborate?

If you do not believe in hell, what do you need to be saved from? Why a savior? Could you concieve of the other atrocities your god committed in the Old Testament? If Jesus and the Father are one then Jesus is just as guilty of the crimes is he not? Or do you also reject that Trinity doctorine? Are you even sure you are a Christian and not some sort of cultist heritic?

 

Good questions! LOL...to be completely honest with you, I'm not comfortable with labels. I call myself a Christian, because I believe in Jesus Christ. I may not know or understand much of what is in the Bible as I've already pointed out on here I believe, but I'm not about to throw the baby out with the bathwater simply because I don't understand it all at this point in my life. I am, however, willing to keep searching for the truth...

 

with that said, I'll try to answer your questions.

 

Salvation is about being saved from being eternally separated from God. Regardless of the form that takes, either punishment and then inihilation, or just eternal separation in a spiritually separate place. Does not sound like a state or place I would want to be in, that is for certain!

 

I believe, the question about why a Savior speaks to the first question of needing salvation. Aside from that, According to the tennants of Christianity and what is written in the Bible, I, in my fallen state, can not save myself. My rightousness is like filthy rags to God. And that is speaking about my best efforts! That is why a holy sacrifice had to be satisfied in my stead.

 

I accept the Trinity doctrin.

 

I'm always searching, always learning and always growing. I am an imperfect and sinful creature. I acknowlege it and I accept it. But I also acknowlege and accept the divine plan for my redemption from this curse.

 

So, you DO accept the fact that Jesus is a torturing murdering bastard then. The God of the OT that confuses you and Jesus are one in the same. Therefore your "savior" is worse than Pol Pot, Stalin, Hitler, and Kim Jong Il combined. Are you happy to worship such a monster? And why did god require a "holy sacrifice"? Is he not all powerful? Is he so fucking warped that he would demand such a thing? Do you demand human sacrifice before YOU forgive someone?

[Deva]

From what I am reading, LadyWolf is a Christian that believes in hell, but doesn't believe it is eternal. That is the only spot she parts with orthodoxy. In every other respect, a total Christian. Believes the atonement, sin and the eternal separation thing from God, salvation, the Trinity, all the other stuff. Nothing complex or particularly thought provoking here. No new twist or new exploration of Christianity. Same old thing.

 

Mainstream Christianiaity would probably see me as NOT a "true" Christian based on my doctrinal stand or should I say lack thereof?

 

Oh yes they would. Any mainline Protestant church would welcome you with open arms. Their churches are packed with people who don't like one or two particular Christian doctrines. Now there are some radical fundy churches that might throw you out.

 

I think you said something about "throwing the baby out with the bathwater". No danger of that. You are still bathing happily together.

 

You won't get any insights from prayer while your mind continues to be influenced by the Bible. Throw the Book out, then we can talk.

[Abiyoyo]

Hello, I really like your avatar! But I'd like it even more if it said, "he wants his truth back." Sadly religion has muddied the water so much that His true message has been all but lost I'm afraid:( Much like the Pharisese muddied the old law to the point that it became so legalistic noone could follow it. I'm afraid that we will never learn. :sigh:

 

Thanks be to Paul.

[Neon Genesis]

The Apostles’ and the Athanasian Creeds both confess Christ’s Descent into Hell. However, the Descent was not into torment, since the payment for our sins was completed on the cross. This is why Jesus could say, “It is finished.” His true agony was expressed in the words, “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me? (Mt 27:46)” Jesus’ quote from Psalm 22 underscores the seriousness with which God views human transgression. He made Jesus, who knew no sin, to be sin for us (cf. 2 Cor 5:21) — and He then punished that sin with ruthlessness. Being abandoned by God must be the greatest torment that even Hell has to offer, yet Jesus willingly accepted this to bring us reconciliation with his Father.

But that's what the creeds say. It's not what the scriptures say about it. How can Jesus be both God and sin at the same time? God is supposed to be perfect, but you're saying Jesus who was God in the flesh became sin and immorality. So, that would mean God is not perfect and God sinned.

 

If Hell was all about complete and total separation from God, then that is what Jesus had to endure, because that is OUR punishment. And if He was the sacrificial lamb, than the sacrifice had to be completely satisfied.

If hell is separation from God, yet Jesus is God at the same time, how can God be separated from himself?

 

I do believe in Hell or a place of punishment for the wicked, but I don't believe it is eternal as far as how long it lasts. I think that it is based on each person's life and how they lived it here on Earth. If God is a "just" god as we are told all through out the Bible that He is, then it is the only thing that makes sense. A just god would not punish someone without end imho.

If you reject the traditional beliefs of hell as being eternal, why not just go all the way and disbelieve in any hell? Why is a temporary hell more moral than eternal hell? If it's immoral for God to torture people for all eternity, why is it more moral to torture people temporarily? We consider it immoral to torture people in this life. Why is hell somehow justice? You might want to watch this video about hell by the Christian bishop John Shelby Spong:

Even though you believe in a temporary hell, I think this video still will be applicable to you.

 

To me, sin means anything that is contrary to God's new testament law of "Love the Lord thy God with all thy heart and all thy soul and all thy might, and love one another."

How do you define loving God?

[Antlerman]

leave now before you are an ex-christian, they are exceptionally persuasive with their loquacious dialectic. I only remain a christian by hiding in seclusion and reading the Bible to abrogate their philosophy.

What the hell is this supposed to say? May I attempt to translate?

"Leave now before you lose your faith. They are exceptionally persuasive with their well-worded, well-reasoned arguments. I only remain a Christian by isolating myself from ideas, and work diligently at programming myself to think only one way about the world through the repetition of reading the same texts over and over until it's force of habit and so ingrained in my mind that deviation from it into the world of independent thinking will become increasingly more difficult. Some may call this brainwashing, but that is the thoughts of the devil. God calls this faith."

 

You are joking, right?

[Abiyoyo]

You are joking, right?

 

I was wondering myself about that

[chefranden]

...No new twist or new exploration of Christianity. Same old thing...

 

OK. Altogether now. anda 1 anda 2 anda 3

 

Tell me the old, old story of unseen things above,

Of Jesus and His glory, of Jesus and His love.

Tell me the story simply, as to a little child,

For I am weak and weary, and helpless and defiled.

 

Tell me the old, old story, tell me the old, old story,

Tell me the old, old story, of Jesus and His love.

 

Tell me the story slowly, that I may take it in,

That wonderful redemption, God’s remedy for sin.

Tell me the story often, for I forget so soon;

The early dew of morning has passed away at noon.

 

Tell me the old, old story, tell me the old, old story,

Tell me the old, old story, of Jesus and His love.

 

Tell me the story softly, with earnest tones and grave;

Remember I’m the sinner whom Jesus came to save.

Tell me the story always, if you would really be,

In any time of trouble, a comforter to me.

 

Tell me the old, old story, tell me the old, old story,

Tell me the old, old story, of Jesus and His love.

 

Tell me the same old story when you have cause to fear

That this world’s empty glory is costing me too dear.

Yes, and when that world’s glory is dawning on my soul,

Tell me the old, old story: “Christ Jesus makes thee whole.”

 

Tell me the old, old story, tell me the old, old story,

Tell me the old, old story, of Jesus and His love.

[chefranden]

Hello, I really like your avatar! But I'd like it even more if it said, "he wants his truth back." Sadly religion has muddied the water so much that His true message has been all but lost I'm afraid:( Much like the Pharisese muddied the old law to the point that it became so legalistic noone could follow it. I'm afraid that we will never learn. :sigh:

 

So what's the problem? Why doesn't he get his truth back? Do you have it? If you do, it is kinda sad that you are holding out on him. However, being the God of life, the universe, and everything, one would think that he wouldn't even have lost his truth in the first place. Forty-two skidoo

[chefranden]

...I do believe in the super naturel, miracles, broken laws of nature etc. But when it comes to beliefs in general such as doctrinal viewpoints, it needs to add up, or I'm not buying into it...

 

But miracles don't need to add up? How do you add up the earth stopping its angular momentum for a few hours or even reversing it? Physics needs to add up. Doctrine doesn't, because it is horseshit to start with. One can say anything in a fairy tale, but you can't fuck with the laws of physics for real.

 

Sorry but the fundies are right once you get rid of hell, you have nothing left. That is the baby you think you are not throwing out. I know you are big on experience, well this is my experience. If you really are big on knowing what is real*, you will figure this out eventually. One of your studies ought to be physics.

 

*I'm using real instead of truth, because there seems to be 6 billion or more view of truth.

[Neon Genesis]

OK. Altogether now. anda 1 anda 2 anda 3

Oh god, I can't stand that song. It's the same repetitious tune over and over again and it sounds so dragging and slowly paced. At least some of the newer songs they sing at my parents' church try to sound perkier and upbeat. But is it just me or do all these hymns sound the same?

[Guest adonisai]

Hi All:

I am new here. I am actually Maynoda that Lady Wolf apologized to. I wanted you all to know that she means well but I think she is a Christian and so nothing you can say will influence her. Even though, I suppose it is interesting that she is a little soft on the hell issue. Anyway, she defended me on that other forum so I felt I should come here and defend her on this forum.

 

I have a question for you all here. Do you guys ever get really, really angry at Christians? I have been having this problem lately. I can't seem to control my temper and I am not sure why? I know this is off topic but I came out of the Christian religion and my husband is still in it. This has been hard. Also my parents, most of my friends, my relatives, well, you know, mostly everyone in America is a Christian of some sort or another. I just seem consumed with this anger and it won't go away. So I go to forums like the one I posted on and I get really nasty with the people there. That is not nice at all and doesn't set a very good example of what we really are all about. And yet I can't seem to help myself, especially when they call you names. At that wonderful place I was called a teenager (I am 55). I was called a Nephilim by several people. They are the fallen angels of Satan, I am supposing. One man insisted that I was gay and someone who was using my disbelief as an excuse so I could sin. I am a female, by the way. And several people pointed out that I am possessed by Satan. Let me tell you, I had great fun on that forum.

 

So I know I am partly to blame, my anger and all, but I find myself hating Christians. They are so smug, unloving, pride-filled and self-righteous. I can admit that I don't know for sure about anything. I always say that no one knows any more than I do and I know nothing. Well, to be honest, I am pretty damned sure there is no God but I tried to be cordial there and say I don't know. But those people were brutal and, honestly, why would any person in their right mind want to be a Christian? I just don't know. I know that maybe they aren't ALL like that, but a good 99% of the people I've met have been. Maybe I'm just not meeting the right kind of Christian, I don't know. Anyway, thanks for listening to my rant and if any of you have any suggestions how to stop the anger, I'd appreciate it. Maybe go a little easy on Lady Wolf. I know how awful it was for me over there and maybe we could all treat her a little nicer over here, if she comes back, that is. But it is probably useless if she should think we will change. Just like it was completely pointless for me when I posted over there because those people won't change either. It was so hard for me when I deconverted but I am so glad I did. I really don't miss Christianity at all. But I just wish others could sit on our side of the fence for a while and realize how hard this has been for some of us.

 

And I always say, "Who wouldn't want to be a Christian?" Not for the dogma or anything like that but for the simple fact that it is comforting to THINK you are going off to some pleasure palace after death and meeting up with your long lost friends and relatives. That is the real reason they believe, I am thinking. They can't deal with the reality that this life is all we'll get so they make up their fancy stories. But they should just think about that because we have nothing to gain by being non-Christians. We can't go around bragging about our wonder hereafter. We don't bring good news. So why would we want to believe what we believe? I value truth and that is the only answer I can come up. Truth, instead of all these beautfiul lies, because there is nothing more valuable than truth. Thanks for listening.