Another Urban Myth Needs to Go

[Checkmate]

quoted source from: Madalyn Murray O'Hair Urban Myth

 

Is it that time of year again?

 

Seems like every 4 months or so, some religious numbskull forwards some “School Prayer” initiative to my Baptist mother. She, in turn, forwards the e-mail indiscriminately to everyone in her address book. That includes ME, the family atheist. Ye olde “black sheep”.

 

My blood pressure rises and I must decide whether or not to respond to the bait, or just let it go.

 

I used to return volley, but I’ve been getting tired lately, since no one on the other side seems to understand a fucking thing I say! Just a few days ago another one of these jewels showed up. I just hit “delete” without reading the message. Fuck the dumb shit.

 

I grow weary of the pleas to “save our schools through prayer” and accusations that “this country has gone to hell ever since Madalyn Murray O’Hair successfully lobbied the Supreme Court to remove prayer and God from our public schools.”

 

I REALLY hate that second one.

 

While the O’Hair/American Atheist stalking horse may be fun for the Religious Right to ride, there is very LITTLE truth or substance to this urban myth. Check it out:

 

 

Myth:

An atheist, Madalyn Murray O’Hair, removed God, the Bible and prayer from public schools.

 

 

Response:

An outspoken atheist, Madalyn Murray O’Hair has long been an object of hatred and fear for the Religious Right. It is thus not surprising that they placed the blame on her alone for the elimination of state-sponsored prayers and Bible readings in public schools. O’Hair herself certainly didn’t do anything to disabuse people of that notion, and in fact [she] often encouraged it.

 

The truth of the matter is that her role in the relevant Supreme Court cases really wasn’t that large — had she never existed or had her case never come up, it is likely that the outcome would have been exactly the same and the Christian Right would have had to find someone else to play the role of their boogeyman.

 

With regards to school prayer, Madalyn Murray O’Hair played no role at all — not even a minor one.

 

The decision which prohibited the state from sponsoring specific prayers in public schools was Engel v. Vitale, decided in 1962 by an 8-1 vote. The people who challenged the laws establishing such prayers were a mixture of believers and nonbelievers in New Hyde Park, New York, and O’Hair was not among them.

 

One year later, the Supreme Court reached a decision on a related matter, the state sponsored Bible readings which occurred in many schools. The primary case was Abington School District v. Schempp, but consolidated along with it was another case, Murray v. Curlett. It was this latter case which involved O’Hair, at the time simply Madalyn Murray. Thus, her efforts did play a role preventing the state from deciding what sorts of Bible readings students would have in public schools; but even without her, the Schempp case would still have gone forward and the Supreme Court likely would have reached the exact same ruling.

 

The entire process of removing official religious exercises from public schools started much earlier with the McCollum v. Board of Education case decided on March 8, 1948. At that time, the Supreme Court held that public schools in Champaign, Illinois, violated the separation of church and state by allowing religious groups to teach religious classes to students in the schools during the school day. The decision was defied around the country, and the eminent theologian Reinhold Niebuhr stated that this would lead to public education becoming completely secular.

 

He was right. There was a time when public education included a strong Protestant flavor, something which made matters very difficult for Catholics, Jews, and members of both minority religions and minority Protestant traditions. The gradual removal of this bias through the latter half of the 20th century has been a very positive development because it has expanded the religious liberty of all public school students.

 

Madalyn Murray O’Hair played a role in this process, but she was not the sole or even the primary force behind it. Christian Right complaints about O’Hair allows them to attack the various court rulings by associating them with atheists, still one of the most reviled groups in America, without ever having to actually explain what is wrong with the rulings in the first place.

 

It is worth noting that, in his failed arguments before the Supreme Court in the case of Lee v. Weisman, U.S. Solicitor General Kenneth Starr openly accepted the validity of the Engel decision. When questioned by the justices, Starr clearly stated that classroom prayer compelled, led, or endorsed by a teacher is inherently coercive and unconstitutional. People who actually understand the law and the principle of religious liberty realize that the state has no business dictating prayer or readings from any group’s religious scriptures, but much of this hasn’t filtered down to everyone yet.

 

Blaming O’Hair for single-handedly defeating the church is not only inaccurate, but it is lazy, inflammatory and STUPID! Does the church REALLY want to confess that some shrill harpy with an axe to grind was able to outwit them and their “God”?

 

One “evil atheist” brought both the Supreme Court AND the full might of God and His church to heel!?

 

Why don’t the Xians recognize how impotent this makes them appear?

 

It seems that the church would be glad to get rid of THIS urban legend. But they just won't let it go.

[Amethyst]

The only reason they aren't letting it go is because they need a scapegoat. Christianity has always needed one, be it the devil, anti-Christ, or someone else.

[TruthWarrior]

I never understood all the school prayer hoopla. I was against it as a christian and am against it now. You can still pray in school. I'm sure most every kid does before they take a big test. You just can't force the school to pray with you. Why the hell would you want to? Obviously it's for prostelyzing purposes.

 

"And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you." Matthew 6:5-6 (NIV)

 

(the sames goes for all ya crazy christians who love to pray in restaurants too!)

[trashy]

"And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you." Matthew 6:5-6 (NIV)

 

(the sames goes for all ya crazy christians who love to pray in restaurants too!)

Dude! I just got a major brainstorm! I need business cards with that scripture printed on it!

[Checkmate]

Dude!  I just got a major brainstorm!  I need business cards with that scripture printed on it!

 

Try it, but I bet it doesn't faze them. When I was a Xian I raised this very protest IN church. I was tired of the public spectacle of prayer and I rebuked the entire congregation and the pastor for being in violation of scripture.

 

While everyone agreed with me "in theory", the practice NEVER stopped. Xians will do whatever makes them feel good and "spiritual", no matter WHAT the buy-bull says.

[Fweethawt]

TK,

 

I don't get those types of e-mails anymore. Well, I do. But I don't get them nearly as often as I used to.

 

You see, whenever I deconverted and started to learn how these people forward these lies in order to influence other people over and over and over again, I taught myself a neat trick.

 

 

I would compose an e-mail with all of the information that I could find that would totally debunk what the initial message was saying. Within these messages, I would also include several links to different freethought sites.

 

Now here is the real kicker...

 

I wouldn't just reply to the person who sent me the message. I would copy and paste EVERY SINGLE E-MAIL ADDRESS that the message had been sent to prior to arriving in my mailbox, even if I didn't know who they were.

 

Needless to say, I don't get much mail anymore.

 

 

Of course, I'd rather not get any mail if the only things that someone is going to send is emotionally influential bullshit.

[Checkmate]

I would compose an e-mail with all of the information that I could find that would totally debunk what the initial message was saying. Within these messages, I would also include several links to different freethought sites.

 

I tried that a few times, but communicating with my family is like dealing with Amanda or TAP!

 

My mother will agree with me on MANY points, yet still find a reason to justify, for example, prayer in schools. LOGIC and PROOF means very little to her or the rest of my braindead clan. Schools and this country are "going to hell", they say. Ergo the solution MUST be prayer! "Praise the lawd! Thank you jee-zus!"

 

It's like trying to nail jelly to a tree. VERY frustrating!

[dead_hobbit]

The only reason they aren't letting it go is because they need a scapegoat.  Christianity has always needed one, be it the devil, anti-Christ, or someone else.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

That's typical of all humanity, not just Christianity.

[dead_hobbit]

(the sames goes for all ya crazy christians who love to pray in restaurants too!)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

In and of itself, is there anything wrong with a person choosing to say a prayer before eating?

 

I don't so.

 

Now, if they're doing it with the purpose of shoving their ideas down the throats of us evil unbelievers, then I'd have a problem with it.

[dead_hobbit]

I got that sort of email twice, but the second time I replied to all the recipients and cleared up the matter. They sent my reply to the people who sent it to them. And since then, none of them has believed that BS.

 

 

It's about the only thing in my life that has given me hope in humanity.

[♦ nivek ♦]

Mr. Grinch said:

 

It's like trying to nail jelly to a tree. VERY frustrating!

 

Just need LOTS more velocity... Will *nail* anything.

 

Even the jelly beasts!

 

kL

[pitchu]

some shrill harpy with an axe to grind

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Since I was a young adult during the days the O'Hair campaign was an issue, I have a pretty keen memory of what was going on.

 

She was an outraged mother during a time in America when it wasn't acceptable for mothers (or women, for that matter) to have strong opinions on such controversial issues and to voice those opinions repeatedly and publicly.

 

Her numerous TV appearances and the newspaper and magazine articles about her made people have to face that there was another way to think about these issues and another way to be, as a mother. Her refusal to sit down and be nice about what her son was subjected to created a new activist model for many mothers/women, and not just in the area of religion.

 

She received much abuse and many death threats for speaking out. And, as we know, she was eventually kidnapped and horribly murdered, along with two members of her family, by someone she'd helped out and trusted.

 

Even in today's more enlightened times, a father fighting for the right to religiously parent his daughter gets flack, so imagine what it was like for her.

 

Her actual role in the court history is a separate matter, but to characterize her in this manner is, imo, unjust.

[Max]

I never understood all the school prayer hoopla...."And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you." Matthew 6:5-6 (NIV)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

My sentiments exactly! If you're really among the faithful and really want to pray, there's no way anyone will ever stop you. But if you're not, and you don't want to, there's no way anyone can force you to do anything except a meaningless recitation.

 

As for the scripture quote, I've always been baffled as to how xtians could have so resoundlingly missed this one. Not only does Jesus tell them not to pray in public, but a couple of lines later he tells them not to recite memorized prayers. Then he gives them an example, which they quickly memorize and recite in public.

 

Go figure!

[bluewizard]

Since I was a young adult during the days the O'Hair campaign was an issue, I have a pretty keen memory of what was going on.

 

She was an outraged mother during a time in America  when it wasn't acceptable for mothers (or women, for that matter) to have strong opinions on such controversial issues and to voice those opinions repeatedly and publicly.

 

Her numerous TV appearances and the newspaper and magazine articles about her made people have to face that there was another way to think about these issues and another way to be, as a mother.  Her refusal to sit down and be nice about what her son was subjected to created a new activist model for many mothers/women, and not just in the area of religion.

 

She received much abuse and many death threats for speaking out.  And, as we know, she was eventually kidnapped and horribly murdered, along with two members of her family, by someone she'd helped out and trusted.

 

Even in today's more enlightened times, a father fighting for the right to religiously parent his daughter gets flack, so imagine what it was like for her.

 

Her actual role in the court history is a separate matter, but to characterize her in this manner is, imo, unjust.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

My mom and Dad think O Hair is burning in Hell right now.

[currentchristian]

I never understood all the school prayer hoopla. I was against it as a christian and am against it now. You can still pray in school. I'm sure most every kid does before they take a big test. You just can't force the school to pray with you. Why the hell would you want to? Obviously it's for prostelyzing purposes.

 

"And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you." Matthew 6:5-6 (NIV)

 

(the sames goes for all ya crazy christians who love to pray in restaurants too!)

 

Me neither. While coming from this as a teacher, I like the idea of asking students to sit still and remain silent for a few seconds/minutes after the bell rings in order to get them focused, but I might do this as a pedagogical technique, not a religious one.

 

Your quote above says it all. And how about those Muslims the other day praying, standing in the aisle of an airplane before it took off. They were asking for trouble and should have been removed. Who wants to ride in any airplane with anyone standing in the aisles praying to any god before takeoff? I sure don't.

 

And praying before a football game or thanking Jesus for a homerun really gets under my skin. They have that right, of course, but I have a right to think that of all things wrong with the world, Jesus likely is not interested in a multimillionaire's baseball game!

 

-CC in MA

 

 

Amanda...

 

I'm digging into some older posts here. The name "Amanda" has come up twice. Who is/was she?

 

I despise those silly e-mails warning me that CBS is about to remove all shows that mention God because Madalyn Murray O'Hair is at it again. While she was a nasty, mean woman (not because she was an atheist, but because she was a nasty, mean woman), she's been dead for over a decade!

 

(Unless she's in spirit??? )

 

-CC in MA

[Dave]

.....Your quote above says it all. And how about those Muslims the other day praying, standing in the aisle of an airplane before it took off. They were asking for trouble and should have been removed. Who wants to ride in any airplane with anyone standing in the aisles praying to any god before takeoff? I sure don't.

Then you are a bigot. First, they were not praying on the plane. They prayed in the terminal waiting room. Second, they have the right to pray anywhere they want. The "disturbance" was only in the minds of some very closed minded jerks.

[currentchristian]

.....Your quote above says it all. And how about those Muslims the other day praying, standing in the aisle of an airplane before it took off. They were asking for trouble and should have been removed. Who wants to ride in any airplane with anyone standing in the aisles praying to any god before takeoff? I sure don't.

Then you are a bigot. First, they were not praying on the plane. They prayed in the terminal waiting room. Second, they have the right to pray anywhere they want. The "disturbance" was only in the minds of some very closed minded jerks.

 

Dave, Let's make a deal. I'll stop replying to anything you post and you stop replying to anything I post. How about it?

 

You argue every point, just to argue. That's not my style. So, can we agree simply to ignore each other's presence and no matter how idiotic a remark I make, no matter how stupid you think I am, no matter how childish and uneducated I appear to be, you'll just let it slide? How about it? A truce?

 

-CC in MA

[Dave]

.....Your quote above says it all. And how about those Muslims the other day praying, standing in the aisle of an airplane before it took off. They were asking for trouble and should have been removed. Who wants to ride in any airplane with anyone standing in the aisles praying to any god before takeoff? I sure don't.

Then you are a bigot. First, they were not praying on the plane. They prayed in the terminal waiting room. Second, they have the right to pray anywhere they want. The "disturbance" was only in the minds of some very closed minded jerks.

Dave, Let's make a deal. I'll stop replying to anything you post and you stop replying to anything I post. How about it?

No.

You argue every point, just to argue. That's not my style. So, can we agree simply to ignore each other's presence and no matter how idiotic a remark I make, no matter how stupid you think I am, no matter how childish and uneducated I appear to be, you'll just let it slide? How about it? A truce?

Why can't you see your bigotry against the fine people that prayed BEFORE boarding a plane. If it were christians you'd be praising them. Why are you for displays of religion ONLY if they are christian? Those clerics had harmed no one. They bothered no one. They did nothing wrong. Or is only christian prayer allowed in public places? Don't you believe in freedom of speech and religion? You asked that question of me, now it seems that you are the one that does not allow such things.

 

Do I argue just to argue? Or do I ask the hard questions you don't want asked? Or do I ask the questions you can't answer and still believe?

[currentchristian]

Why can't you see your bigotry against the fine people that prayed BEFORE boarding a plane. If it were christians you'd be praising them. Why are you for displays of religion ONLY if they are christian? Those clerics had harmed no one. They bothered no one. They did nothing wrong. Or is only christian prayer allowed in public places? Don't you believe in freedom of speech and religion? You asked that question of me, now it seems that you are the one that does not allow such things.

 

Do I argue just to argue? Or do I ask the hard questions you don't want asked? Or do I ask the questions you can't answer and still believe?

 

Okay, Dave. To answer your questions:

 

1. I said that I am uncomfortable seeing anyone pray standing in the aisle of a plane. I don't care which god they pray to. My understanding was that these imams were praying on the plane and this is what the initial CNN account said: "Three of them stood and said their normal evening prayers together on the plane, as 1.7 billion Muslims around the world do every day, Shahin said. He attributed any concerns by passengers or crew to ignorance about Islam." This was the news account I read. It seems unwise to me and provocative for anyone to stand to pray in a plane's aisle before taking off. I don't care which god they are praying to.

 

2. Yes, I believe in freedom of speech, thought and religion. Do you? (You have yet to answer my question.)

 

3. Dave, I must let you know that you come across as quite argumentative. You stated that you were kicked out of a Catholic school at age 7 for being an atheist and arguing about that. Arguing is part of your personality. Wanting things your way is part of your personality. (Seems to me.) How many times have you started fights with others? I have an idea that you have a long history of arguing and demanding your way.

 

I feel attacked and stalked by you. Please stop stalking me. If you want to politely discuss an issue, that's great. (Calling me a bigot is not polite.) But I feel your angry and accusatory responses to my posts are violations of my personhood.

 

-CC in MA

[Dave]

Why can't you see your bigotry against the fine people that prayed BEFORE boarding a plane. If it were christians you'd be praising them. Why are you for displays of religion ONLY if they are christian? Those clerics had harmed no one. They bothered no one. They did nothing wrong. Or is only christian prayer allowed in public places? Don't you believe in freedom of speech and religion? You asked that question of me, now it seems that you are the one that does not allow such things.

 

Do I argue just to argue? Or do I ask the hard questions you don't want asked? Or do I ask the questions you can't answer and still believe?

 

Okay, Dave. To answer your questions:

 

1. I said that I am uncomfortable seeing anyone pray standing in the aisle of a plane. I don't care which god they pray to. My understanding was that these imams were praying on the plane and this is what the initial CNN account said.....

They got it wrong. They were not on the plane. And, I'm sorry and you'll have to excuse me, but I don't believe you. If they were christians, you'd have joined them or praised them.

2. Yes, I believe in freedom of speech, thought and religion. Do you? (You have yet to answer my question.)

Yet you want to punish those of another religion for praying. Again, I'm sorry, but that seems hypocritical to me. Can you explain how keeping someone else OF ANY RELIGION from praying in a very appropriate place is keeping with their freedom of speech, thought, or religion? If you're going to pray, doing so before boarding an airplane is an appropriate time. I spend 10 years in the USNavy protecting peoples right to pray to themselves, just like these clerics were doing. I would complain just as loud if someone tried to stop you from praying as they did.

3. Dave, I must let you know that you come across as quite argumentative. You stated that you were kicked out of a Catholic school at age 7 for being an atheist and arguing about that. Arguing is part of your personality. Wanting things your way is part of your personality. (Seems to me.) How many times have you started fights with others? I have an idea that you have a long history of arguing and demanding your way.

So, instead of actually answering my questions you have to attack me. You complain that I didn't answer one of your questions, yet you routinely ignored all of my questions and replied with just a smarmy platitude.

I feel attacked and stalked by you. Please stop stalking me. If you want to politely discuss an issue, that's great. (Calling me a bigot is not polite.) But I feel your angry and accusatory responses to my posts are violations of my personhood.

This is an open forum. Anyone can reply to any posting. I am not stalking you in any way, shape, or form. Do you feel "attacked" or are you just trying to protect your beliefs. Calling you a bigot may not have been polite, but neither was your acceptance of the punishment of those clerics that harmed no one. And you know full well that the ONLY reason they were removed from the plane is because of the current bigotry against anything Muslim and non christian and the irrational fear, whipped up by an insane president, that all Muslims are terrorists.

 

Now, If you want to politely discuss something, you can start by answering my questions with more than platitudes, excuses and other replies that insult my intelligence and the intelligence of everyone else here.

 

If that doesn't work for you, learn how to use the ignore feature. Moderators are always quick to let me know if I cross a line or do something they do not like. So far, they've not said a word to me. YOU, personally, mean nothing to me. I'm replying to words on the screen, not a person. Any emotions you add to it are yours, not mine.

[NotBlinded]

I'm replying to words on the screen, not a person.

That's the problem Dave. There is a person on the other end of those words.

[Amethyst]

I have to say that Dave is right about the Imams not being on the plane. I live in Minnesota, which was where it happened. Here is the link from my local newspaper's web site:

 

http://www.startribune.com/484/story/837243.html

 

The imams, who were returning from a religious conference, had prayed on their prayer rugs in the airport before the flight. After they boarded the flight, a passenger, who was alarmed by their activity, passed a note to a flight attendant. The men were taken off the airplane, handcuffed and questioned.

 

Now, it seems to me that they were not doing anything wrong and that the passenger overreacted. But maybe that's just me.

[Dave]

I'm replying to words on the screen, not a person.

That's the problem Dave. There is a person on the other end of those words.

By addressing the forum instead of the person, personal attacks are left out.

 

 

...Now, it seems to me that they were not doing anything wrong and that the passenger overreacted. But maybe that's just me.

Now, would one word have been said to anyone if it were a bunch of christians in a prayer circle? The obvious answer is, no.

[currentchristian]

I have to say that Dave is right about the Imams not being on the plane. I live in Minnesota, which was where it happened. Here is the link from my local newspaper's web site:

 

http://www.startribune.com/484/story/837243.html

 

The imams, who were returning from a religious conference, had prayed on their prayer rugs in the airport before the flight. After they boarded the flight, a passenger, who was alarmed by their activity, passed a note to a flight attendant. The men were taken off the airplane, handcuffed and questioned.

 

Now, it seems to me that they were not doing anything wrong and that the passenger overreacted. But maybe that's just me.

 

I do think praying in the terminal is a different matter than praying on the airplane. Nothing wrong with praying on the plane, either. Every race down the runway to take off will find me (mentally) reciting Psalm 23. But I would not do so with even lips moving. Prayer seems to me a more private affair. And I would not want to have anyone publicly praying on a plane prior to takeoff...perhaps that is discriminatory, but just how I feel.

 

In all honesty, if I had been in that terminal and had witnessed the imams pull out their prayer rugs and pray, I would have scooted over by them and when they were finished, commenced asking them questions about Islam. While one of my good friends in Wahabbi Muslim (quite Orthodox) and he and I talk all the time about Islam I have studied the Qur'an and Islam quite a bit, I have many unanswered questions and I would have loved to engage them in conversation!

 

-CC in MA

[trashy]

Dave, Let's make a deal. I'll stop replying to anything you post and you stop replying to anything I post. How about it?

 

you two might want to utilize the 'ignore' feature......