Looking4Answers Posted March 11, 2009 Share Posted March 11, 2009 A friend and I were out at a Golden Coral getting dinner and talking, of all things, about atheistic and agnostic concepts. Somewhere in our conversation I mentioned a Baptist church and its pastor. It just so happened that one of the servers was walking by and all she heard was "Baptist church." Later she approached us and said something like: "I heard ya'll mention a Baptist church. Did you hear about that pastor that was shot and killed up in Illinois?" I told her that I had read a news article about it. She then says, "I think it was a real miracle of God that the gun jammed keeping others from getting killed." She said this as if to imply, "Gee! Isn't god so totally awesome!" So I casually asked, "Why didn't god jam the gun before the pastor was shot and killed?" Her reply, "It was just his time. God wanted to take him home to be with him!" So I said to her, "Don't you think that god could have found a more pain-free way to have taken that pastor home? I mean, the all-powerful, all-knowing, all-merciful god just allowed one of his servants to be gunned down in cold blood right in the church!" She countered by saying, "The servants of god suffer. Even Jesus suffered when he went to the cross." I said, "That's different. Jesus, according to the Bible, had a plan and was in the process of carrying it out. He knew that he would suffer and die and, as a result, he voluntarily went to the cross. But this pastor ... he had no idea what was coming his way. He just steps into the pulpit and gets gunned down. He was not planning on offering his life that day. Don't you think that god could have done things differently? Couldn't he have found a less painful way to take his servant home like giving him a stroke that instantly killed him instead of having him shot full of holes and dying on the way to the hospital?" She then goes back to the topic she had already raised and says, "Christians suffer. In fact, Christians suffer and are persecuted more than anyone else in the world!" I about lost it there! I come from a Jewish background and I am pretty sure that the Jewish people have suffered more than Christian ever thought of suffering over their history. And I am fairly sure that there are many other groups of people who have suffered as much, if not more, than the Jews have. Then I started to think about how much of this suffering was at the hands of Christians. I simply dropped the game at this point, looked at her and said, "That simply is not true." She walked away at some point right after this. At first I was having fun with the dialog, trying to see where she would take it. We did not expose our hand (so to speak) and let her know that we were not believers. But the ignorance of Christians amazes me. The way they twist and turn things to ensure that god looks good. The capacity to even ask questions (for most of them) seems to be gone. A man comes into a church and murders the pastor during the service. Where was the omnipresent, all-powerful, all-knowing god? Instead of asking questions like this, Christians give god an excuse and claim it was simply time for that man to go "home" as if god did that man a favor. Perhaps god just really hated the man's sermon and had him gunned down in order get it over with. I know I have felt that way while sitting in some services listening to some pastor's preach . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
par4dcourse Posted March 11, 2009 Share Posted March 11, 2009 In my xian days I really believed that everything happened for a reason. Then I began to notice how many totally unreasonable things, this shooting being an example, that were happening every day. Just one of the ways xianity didn't add up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GraphicsGuy Posted March 11, 2009 Share Posted March 11, 2009 She then goes back to the topic she had already raised and says, "Christians suffer. In fact, Christians suffer and are persecuted more than anyone else in the world!" Oh? So every single starving/abused/tortured/insert-other-suffering person in the world is a Xian? The lady needs to get a clue instead of swallowing every bit of bullshit that her church and "Voice of the Martyrs" throws out there... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tabula Rasa Posted March 11, 2009 Share Posted March 11, 2009 I hate to admit it, but when a favorite artist, writer or musician of mine died,(especially if they died young) I used to console myself by thinking God liked their work so much, he took them to have them all to himself.(In retrospect, it sounds pretty bad, in that it makes God into a selfish asshole.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vixentrox Posted March 11, 2009 Share Posted March 11, 2009 Like many faiths, they need the persecution complex to bind them together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Looking4Answers Posted March 11, 2009 Author Share Posted March 11, 2009 I hate to admit it, but when a favorite artist, writer or musician of mine died,(especially if they died young) I used to console myself by thinking God liked their work so much, he took them to have them all to himself.(In retrospect, it sounds pretty bad, in that it makes God into a selfish asshole.) I can totally understanding someone trying to console themselves with thoughts like this. However, when the grief is over, what does this say about god (besides him being a selfish asshole )? Is not one of the supposed attributes of god that he knows everything even before it comes to pass? If this is so, then did not god know that this singer, writer or musician would create wonderful work that god would like so much that he would want them in heaven? And, if so, then why make them go through life and die an untimely death, causing grief to all those that loved that individual? Why not just create that being in heaven or cause the infant to die in the womb and accomplish the same goal? But let's go beyond this even for a moment. If god is so perfect and man is so imperfect, then what music could imperfect man ever create that would be so wonderful that god would just have to rush that person into heaven to have that person all to himself? And if god lives forever, then why is he so impatient to get the person there. Being outside of time/space, he could certainly wait, right? I know you realize all this. I am just sort of thinking out loud. In any case, the women at the Golden Coral was not upset about the shooting so she was not trying to console herself. She was actually a bit proud of the way god supposedly jammed the gun and was trying to use that as a means of getting us to shout a hallelujah! When we asked about why god didn't jam the gun for the pastor that did get shot, her smile faded and she had to find an answer ... her's was the one about it being the man's time. Ugh! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwc Posted March 11, 2009 Share Posted March 11, 2009 I hate to admit it, but when a favorite artist, writer or musician of mine died,(especially if they died young) I used to console myself by thinking God liked their work so much, he took them to have them all to himself.(In retrospect, it sounds pretty bad, in that it makes God into a selfish asshole.) How many harpists or virgin/ghost rape authors are there (as these seem to be god's favorites you understand)? mwc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thurisaz Posted March 11, 2009 Share Posted March 11, 2009 ...She then goes back to the topic she had already raised and says, "Christians suffer. In fact, Christians suffer and are persecuted more than anyone else in the world!" I about lost it there! I come from a Jewish background... I can't even begin to imagine just how fucking pissed you must have felt... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CynthiaBelle Posted March 11, 2009 Share Posted March 11, 2009 Seems that all the Abrahamic religions constantly think they are being persecuted and try to keep score in their favor. The more persecuted and frowned on they are, the more TRUE their religion is right? That girl was completely ignorant and I'm proud of you for keeping so cool with the conversation. I think I would have been glaring and mentally lowering her tip pretty fast. hahahaha. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deva Posted March 11, 2009 Share Posted March 11, 2009 "Christians suffer. In fact, Christians suffer and are persecuted more than anyone else in the world!" Congratulations on holding your temper. You were very restrained in your response,L4A. Only years of brainwashing and complete ignorance could have produced something like the above quote. You do wonder if this person has ever cracked a history book in their life. The persecutions of Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, Idi Amin, et al. which killed millions -- no that's not persecution. Christians whine they are persecuted because they can't pray out loud in the public schools or have their Bibles on their desks or they can't have their nativity scene up at Christmas or they have to listen to evolution being taught-- Boo hoo hoo!! cry me a river. Yet Christians are trained to feel they are the most persecuted people on earth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator florduh Posted March 11, 2009 Super Moderator Share Posted March 11, 2009 I hate hearing crap like that! The notion that everything has a purpose, that there are no accidents or coincidences, is a powerful tool for coping with a random universe. Christianity makes use of that, along with fear, to get and maintain a hold on its people. That particular coping mechanism of denying the randomness of life is so strong that many who leave Christianity still hold onto it - imagining the One, the Universal Mind, or some such thing has a purpose for everything that happens. It is a comforting belief. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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