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If Yahweh Is Omnipotent....


Tabula Rasa
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then why is "The Plan of Salvation" so lousy.

 

Christians: When I deconverted back in August 2008, it wasn't because I stopped believing in God, it's because I couldn't reconcile the idea of a supposedly loving God who'd send people to hell just because they didn't do a certain ritual right to get saved.

 

The biggest problem I have with Christianity besides the doctrine of eternal damnation, is, if Yahweh's all powerful, why would he need to send his "son" to suffer a horrible death on the cross?

 

Going back to the beginning, if Yahweh can do anything, why could'nt he just forgive Adam and Eve for eating the forbidden fruit?

 

Surely, if God, wanted to reconcile with humanity, it would be no problem at all and nobody'd have to die.

 

I mean.. hellooooooooooooooo!, Omnipotent being here!

 

Surely someone who can create a whole universe from nothing, could come up with a Much better plan of salvation than the blood soaked sacrifice system.

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Yes it is a lousy plan but that's okay because it's not true. The bible was written 2000 years ago by mysogynistic men in the desert with Neandertal like intelligence. They were superstitious and probably didn't know any better. Time were different back then and people believed all sorts of weird shit so they probably thought it would be easy to pass off as true. And it worked for a long time until people starting thinking rationally and science began to explain that which religion could not.

 

I've always known religion was a farce. I mean, I caught on at the age of about five or six. I was like, "Um, excuse me but this does not make sense." But I was so scared of the devil and of hell that I stayed a Christian until I saw Zeitgeist.

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Apparently he's not all powerful.

 

How about that evergreen story of the iron chariots? He's unable to forgive his creations without a blood sacrifice. He fucked up so badly at creation he had to drown everything and everybody and start over. He claims to be (and acts) jealous.

 

Hardly seems omnipotent.

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The biggest problem I have with Christianity besides the doctrine of eternal damnation, is, if Yahweh's all powerful, why would he need to send his "son" to suffer a horrible death on the cross?

 

Tab,

 

You raised some good points about Christianity, and somehow I missed this thread. Thanks Panda for booting it back up on the actives, as I usually skim through that for my posts.

 

Why would God, omnipotent, need to send His Son to die for us? Good question. I don't know.

 

I want to think it is because we are not omnipotent, and we develop ideas, thoughts, philosophies, doctrine, techniques, standards, ways, rules, arguments, deities, things to worship, theories of existence, and.....we all influence each other with our practices. To answer this question would mean we would have to examine life's existence as a whole, not by country, by culture, by philosophy; by a whole, as one.

 

We are human beings. We are different than any other creature own this planet. We think, keep in thought, create as I mentioned above, ways, doctrine etc. Lets say God made us.

 

Adam and Eve. Why didn't God forgive them, if He is omnipotent? Again, I don't know.

 

Why did God make us to be able to sin? Don't know. Obviously, we don't see other entities being cast out of heaven for their actions everyday, changing from angelic host to human flesh. (Thinking about that new fish they discovered recently :scratch: )

 

Really the question is why did God even make us, to end up failing anyway?

 

Dunno that either.

 

But.....we are here, alive, eating, breathing, smelling, touching, tasting, ....full of flesh just as the other creatures around us. Right? This makes people wonder about a creator, as we are physical, emotional, communicate, and think differently than all life on this planet. We then said, there is something else out there that is over us. Prior, it was the unknown, the sky, the sun, the water. Things of greatness to a human being. Then, people began to claim that 'God' spoke to them, or visited them; until we have what we call religion.

 

Now, here is the difference between everyone that thinks religion was created by man, and my opinion. I do think religion was intensified, written about, characterized, and standardized; yet, I believe at some point the higher being than us, God, communicated with his creation. This gets back to the question. Why would God need to do, this/that, if He is Omnipotent?

 

The obvious is never negated. And, human beings existence is the obvious. Some argue that we don't rule the lands, and that if we were in the desert alone with some lions, we would surely die. True, but as a group, we have surpassed this primitive threat. There is not one breathing threat to us except our own self, human beings. If.....we wanted to, human beings could end life on earth. Have you ever thought of that?

 

We have the chemicals, the technology, the abilities; not because of a political party, or because of our infrastructure, but because we are the dominant race, the more advanced race, smarter. No? We are smart enough though to know that if we end all life on this planet, we would die as well. Even vegetation life.

 

So, we rule. Right? We are the dominant species, whether we were created, or evolved. We made it, and we are different than any other creature. That's just a simple fact. Simple. And anyone that will argue that we are not the dominant species, is crazy in their own delusions.

 

What to do with human beings? To dust, or to our eternal destination.

 

So, my answer is that God created us in His image to live on earth. Adam and Eve were already destined to be on earth, and have pain, and toil the earth. Satan is a entity of God, that has chose to be against God, .....not human, but not God; yet fully unable to understand that God has the last word, in His word. Satan still reluctant to acknowledge God in His fullness, not being human, but somehow of this world as well, is at war with God's creation, trying them and testing them until they are gone, and he proves God to be ignorant, and not omnipotent.

 

God connects with His creation, trying to establish solidification for them...., already knowing what His creations are capable of, and how easily they can be deceived. Satan still continues in ignorant bliss, deceiving His creation, causing them to leave God and His laws, and cling to themselves; as His creation is gaining knowledge, and self identity which Satan uses for his deceitful purposes.

 

Satan I assume, being not human as I said earlier, has access to death; and has captive all the dead souls; so God sends an anointed prophet, Messiah, to fulfill the prophets prophecies, goes to hell, bounds Satan, and God makes this 'sinless' prophet, messiah, Son, Jesus etc a light to all people to know God, the Father. The God of Israel.

 

I believe we have passed the first death, when Jesus died; and now await the second death, which will be when Christ comes back, cast Satan into the 'pit' of eternal damnation etc, Armageddon etc. It says in Revelation that Satan will be bound for a thousand years, then released, in which he will gather his followers to Armageddon. Then, Christ comes back, stops it, and the Book's of life are opened. Everyone is judged.

 

 

Rev 19:2-20:15

2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.

 

The woman, is explained to be the great city, that rules over all the Kings of the earth.

 

3 And again they said, Alleluia. And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.

4 And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.

5 And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great.

6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.

 

I believe this to be God's 'last call' to mankind ( Jesus's death), and in the end of this passage, the in bold is the people on earth that believe in God.

 

7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

 

I believe this is the passage that acknowledges followers/believers of Jesus.

 

10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

 

This causes me to wonder why people think belief in Jesus as Lord, is the only way( in bold)

 

11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

 

I think this is the defeat of Satan at Jesus's death. My opinion.

 

17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;

18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

 

Notice, it says those two, the beast and the false prophet. Also, I think this is during Christ's death. I think the beast was Rome being influenced by Satan, and the false prophet was the Delphi Oracle.

 

21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

 

Jesus killed the rest of the deceived, followers of the beast (Christianity being formed into Rome's religion, and the pagan sites being destroyed)?

 

 

 

CHAPTER 20

1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

 

I see this as the Disciples, Apostles of Christ, and around 10th-11th century, Satan was set loose. Look up facts about that time frame, intriguing.

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continued.....

 

 

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

 

The first resurrection took place after the thousand years.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

 

This part is confusing. I think it is saying that after the second death, ....after the whole thing is done, these second resurrected will be priests of God and of Christ for a thousand years

 

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

 

Back to Satan's thousand year bound, he is now released, and that is where we are at.

 

8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

 

Armageddon of earth. The end. Books in bold, not one, but more than one. It already spoke of the Lamb's Book of life, so I assume the other is just the ....general Book of life for God to judge everyone.....that is not....in the Lamb's Book of Life.

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...We are human beings. We are different than any other creature own this planet. We think, keep in thought, create as I mentioned above, ways, doctrine etc. Lets say God made us...

 

This reminds me of a conversation I had many years ago with a jellyfish, a man o war if I remember right. He, or maybe she, told me that man-o-wars were different than any other creature on this planet, therefore logically God looked like them and behaved like them only better. (Yes I know it seems strange that jellyfish can talk. I can tell you that I vowed not to take acid ever again.)

 

Let's say that God didn't make us. If that is the case none of this religious mumbo jumbo needs explaining. There are no contradictions between what we "ought to be" in our irrational mind's fairy tales and what we are.

 

Notice how much shorter, elegant, and simpler this reply is than yours. Occam's razor leaves much of your production on the cutting room floor.

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Let's say that God didn't make us. If that is the case none of this religious mumbo jumbo needs explaining. There are no contradictions between what we "ought to be" in our irrational mind's fairy tales and what we are.

 

Notice how much shorter, elegant, and simpler this reply is than yours. Occam's razor leaves much of your production on the cutting room floor.

 

If God didn't make us, then we would make up a God that did. Agree?

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then why is "The Plan of Salvation" so lousy.

 

Christians: When I deconverted back in August 2008, it wasn't because I stopped believing in God, it's because I couldn't reconcile the idea of a supposedly loving God who'd send people to hell just because they didn't do a certain ritual right to get saved.

 

The biggest problem I have with Christianity besides the doctrine of eternal damnation, is, if Yahweh's all powerful, why would he need to send his "son" to suffer a horrible death on the cross?

 

Going back to the beginning, if Yahweh can do anything, why could'nt he just forgive Adam and Eve for eating the forbidden fruit?

 

Surely, if God, wanted to reconcile with humanity, it would be no problem at all and nobody'd have to die.

 

I mean.. hellooooooooooooooo!, Omnipotent being here!

 

Surely someone who can create a whole universe from nothing, could come up with a Much better plan of salvation than the blood soaked sacrifice system.

 

FWIW, I have read some of your posts Tab, and somewhat like you, I often think God is "bigger" than our belief systems... but to your questions, who can answer them.....you pose questions here that no one knows.

 

Pondering my own position with this these days, I look at Christ being a friut on the Tree of Life that was planted in the "fallen" world in order for us to eat of it even though we were placed outside of the garden.

 

The thing that keeps coming to my mind is the plan is sooo abstract, yet insightfully "deep" in a myriad of life's relationships, that I find it hard to believe that it came from man.

 

Keep on truckin....

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Pondering my own position with this these days, I look at Christ being a friut on the Tree of Life that was planted in the "fallen" world in order for us to eat of it even though we were placed outside of the garden.

 

The thing that keeps coming to my mind is the plan is sooo abstract, yet insightfully "deep" in a myriad of life's relationships, that I find it hard to believe that it came from man.

 

One thing I will say for you End3, you DO have a different idea about Christianity. Damned if I've ever heard anything like it before.

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Let's say that God didn't make us. If that is the case none of this religious mumbo jumbo needs explaining. There are no contradictions between what we "ought to be" in our irrational mind's fairy tales and what we are.

 

Notice how much shorter, elegant, and simpler this reply is than yours. Occam's razor leaves much of your production on the cutting room floor.

 

If God didn't make us, then we would make up a God that did. Agree?

 

Obviously, most humans do. Evolution makes a lot of crap. Something a perfect in all things God wouldn't do.

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Let's say that God didn't make us. If that is the case none of this religious mumbo jumbo needs explaining. There are no contradictions between what we "ought to be" in our irrational mind's fairy tales and what we are.

 

Notice how much shorter, elegant, and simpler this reply is than yours. Occam's razor leaves much of your production on the cutting room floor.

 

If God didn't make us, then we would make up a God that did. Agree?

 

Obviously, most humans do. Evolution makes a lot of crap. Something a perfect in all things God wouldn't do.

 

If He were in charge....

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Let's say that God didn't make us. If that is the case none of this religious mumbo jumbo needs explaining. There are no contradictions between what we "ought to be" in our irrational mind's fairy tales and what we are.

 

Notice how much shorter, elegant, and simpler this reply is than yours. Occam's razor leaves much of your production on the cutting room floor.

 

If God didn't make us, then we would make up a God that did. Agree?

 

Obviously, most humans do. Evolution makes a lot of crap. Something a perfect in all things God wouldn't do.

 

Everything is cycled and recycled though. Most everything, so to say evolution is a 'lot of crap' would mean that you say we have more unnecessary evolved things than we should? Is that what your saying Chef?

 

Yes, you are correct Chef, humans probably would create deities, and have. I would suggest much of civilization has created their own deity, in different cultures, worlds etc. No?

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Let's say that God didn't make us. If that is the case none of this religious mumbo jumbo needs explaining. There are no contradictions between what we "ought to be" in our irrational mind's fairy tales and what we are.

 

Notice how much shorter, elegant, and simpler this reply is than yours. Occam's razor leaves much of your production on the cutting room floor.

 

If God didn't make us, then we would make up a God that did. Agree?

 

Obviously, most humans do. Evolution makes a lot of crap. Something a perfect in all things God wouldn't do.

If He were in charge....

 

 

......what? :grin:

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FWIW, I have read some of your posts Tab, and somewhat like you, I often think God is "bigger" than our belief systems... but to your questions, who can answer them.....you pose questions here that no one knows.

 

Pondering my own position with this these days, I look at Christ being a friut on the Tree of Life that was planted in the "fallen" world in order for us to eat of it even though we were placed outside of the garden.

 

The thing that keeps coming to my mind is the plan is sooo abstract, yet insightfully "deep" in a myriad of life's relationships, that I find it hard to believe that it came from man.

 

Keep on truckin....

 

I agree, it is too much. That's alot of 'deep' thoughts into life to just be all made up........(2 Christians agreeing with each other on Ex-C)....waiting for the Calvary to come in :battle:

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FWIW, I have read some of your posts Tab, and somewhat like you, I often think God is "bigger" than our belief systems... but to your questions, who can answer them.....you pose questions here that no one knows.

 

Pondering my own position with this these days, I look at Christ being a friut on the Tree of Life that was planted in the "fallen" world in order for us to eat of it even though we were placed outside of the garden.

 

The thing that keeps coming to my mind is the plan is sooo abstract, yet insightfully "deep" in a myriad of life's relationships, that I find it hard to believe that it came from man.

 

Keep on truckin....

 

I agree, it is too much. That's alot of 'deep' thoughts into life to just be all made up........(2 Christians agreeing with each other on Ex-C)....waiting for the Calvary to come in :battle:

 

lol, the lions must still be asleep after their last meal....

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I think Epicurus is still worth quoting...

 

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.

Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.

Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?

Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?

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I think Epicurus is still worth quoting...

 

Me too :grin:

 

If God listened to the prayers of men, all men would quickly have perished: for they are forever praying for evil against one another. -Epicurus

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Yoyo if there is a God and if God answered prayers then I would pray that all people would have understanding.

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I think Epicurus is still worth quoting...

 

Me too :grin:

 

If God listened to the prayers of men, all men would quickly have perished: for they are forever praying for evil against one another. -Epicurus

 

Yikes... :close:

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Everything is cycled and recycled though. Most everything, so to say evolution is a 'lot of crap' would mean that you say we have more unnecessary evolved things than we should? Is that what your saying Chef?

Just look up C-vitamin deficiency, and the reason to why humans and chimps are almost alone in the animal world having it. And also, look up junk DNA. There's a lot of dormant genes in our DNA. Just like chicken or birds in general have the tooth-gene, but it's turned off, and by switching the flip, they get teeth. So why have the gene if it's not used?

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Everything is cycled and recycled though. Most everything, so to say evolution is a 'lot of crap' would mean that you say we have more unnecessary evolved things than we should? Is that what your saying Chef?

 

Yes, you are correct Chef, humans probably would create deities, and have. I would suggest much of civilization has created their own deity, in different cultures, worlds etc. No?

Nothing that evolves is necessary in any planning sense or moral sense.

 

No what I mean is that there is much that has evolved that I don't like: mosquitoes, cockroaches, e-coli; measles; flu; religion... There is no should about evolution. There is only what is. There is however should in evolution. That is some creatures evolved with a circuit that worries about should.

 

I would suggest that all of civilization has created their own deities. That includes your deity. Yahwehjesusspook is just as much a human creation as Zeus or John Frum. But then you know that don't you?

 

You say Jesus wants his religion back. Well which one is it? You will most likely say that is yours right? If it is you ought to give it back. I gave it back some years ago, and found out that life is much better without having to lug it around everywhere constantly attending to it.

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Just look up C-vitamin deficiency, and the reason to why humans and chimps are almost alone in the animal world having it. And also, look up junk DNA. There's a lot of dormant genes in our DNA. Just like chicken or birds in general have the tooth-gene, but it's turned off, and by switching the flip, they get teeth. So why have the gene if it's not used?

 

Maybe it was used in early evolution of that creature, then became dormant when they didn't need that trait any longer. I will look into it. Science isn't really my game, but I am game for about anything at this point in my life.

 

I can't help to think of the Croco duck!! :lmao:

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If He were in charge....

If he isn't in charge why bother with him? It is much more likely that he just isn't.

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