Desperation

[Guest Tiggerpup]

I need help urgently. My partner is leaving me (we were only dating - and I love him dearly) because of being born again, the bible and those people in the church whom he fellowships with that he believes are so wonderful. I spoke with him and he is now questioning things but what I need is someone to give me information on how I can educate him to the brainwashing that goes on, that he can still believe in god and live his life and does not need to be born again and pray over everything and let god make all the decisions - his personality is gone - not the guy I knew and this is the saddest thing - I have to help him before it is too late. These people believe what they are saying - but they are not the be all and end all - surely someone can tell me that being a born again christian is just another religion really and give me stuff I can give to support helping this once lovely man see the light..... PLEASE HELP ME I NEED SOMEONES ASSISTANCE URGENTLY.....

[Ouroboros]

I'm sorry to hear that Tigger, but it's extremely hard to turn their head back to reason. What kind of Christianity did he get involved in? Do you know? Is it just the regular high-roller-pentecostal-style-cults, or is it one of the locked-into-a-house-no-contact-with-the-world cults?

[florduh]

Welcome, Tiggerpup. Sorry for your painful problem.

 

I suggest you not try so hard to dissuade him because he will be told that you are an evil influence trying to lead him away from the truth. You will be portrayed as a tool of Satan. It's better just to be an example of how happy, kind and loving one can be without joining the cult.

 

It's a sad fact, but at times of weakness, friends and family can get swept away by a cult like that. If possible, enlist the aid of someone else to make him question and defend his decision, because this person will probably be despised by him and the church. Try not to let it be you because he may wake up some day and remember only that you were kind and supportive, but just not in agreement. Let yourself appear as a lost sinner rather than an agent of evil. Ask him to explain WHY he believes as he does, point by point, but not in an accusatory way. It might spur him to at least think a little bit as he tries to make it appear logical to you.

 

Just my opinion offered for what it's worth. I'm sorry I don't have a quick, easy fix for you.

[pitchu]

Welcome to the forums, Tiggerpup.

 

I doubt there's anyone here who can give you a quick, simple antidote for what's happening with your loved one.

 

To be aggressive or demanding will likely entrench him in his new convictions.

 

My suggestion is to consistently, persistently tell him, in the most tender and loving way possible, specifically what you miss. (Examples: "You know how you used to throw your head back when you laugh? -- I miss that." "It used to make me feel great when you'd tell me you loved me more than anything." "I miss how excited you'd get when you talked about your favorite movies.")

 

There are no guarantees about any approach, but gently restoring to him the image of who he used to be just might... might... awaken something in him.

 

You're in a very tough spot. I wish you all the best.

[Guest QuidEstCaritas?]

I need help urgently. My partner is leaving me (we were only dating - and I love him dearly) because of being born again, the bible and those people in the church whom he fellowships with that he believes are so wonderful. I spoke with him and he is now questioning things but what I need is someone to give me information on how I can educate him to the brainwashing that goes on, that he can still believe in god and live his life and does not need to be born again and pray over everything and let god make all the decisions - his personality is gone - not the guy I knew and this is the saddest thing - I have to help him before it is too late. These people believe what they are saying - but they are not the be all and end all - surely someone can tell me that being a born again christian is just another religion really and give me stuff I can give to support helping this once lovely man see the light..... PLEASE HELP ME I NEED SOMEONES ASSISTANCE URGENTLY.....

 

 

My advice is for you to get together every friend and relative he still has outside the fundy group and then you and them sit him down a few weekends and talk to him about "disturbing" changes in his personality and how you guys care and love him and want the best for him. Tell him that you respect his right to "believe" in these things, but that you are concerned that perhaps he has become involved with a group of people who are a little too fanatical and zealous. Have the friends and relatives map out a strategy with you beforehand, before you sit him down and all of you talk to him. Remember to respect his "right" to get sucked down into this whirlpool, don't EVER be accusatory and make sure you keep in his comfort zone and stay non-judgmental in the way you come across (not truly non-judgmental as there is no such thing, but you know what I am saying).

 

I think you get the general idea..

 

Team effort, group effort. You need to realize that time is short for him, my guess is he will be consumed by this far sooner than you probably estimate.

 

How do I know what I am talking about? Well....

[Guest Tiggerpup]

I'm sorry to hear that Tigger, but it's extremely hard to turn their head back to reason. What kind of Christianity did he get involved in? Do you know? Is it just the regular high-roller-pentecostal-style-cults, or is it one of the locked-into-a-house-no-contact-with-the-world cults?

 

It is a pentecostal church - but they went the softly softly approach with him. Great friends and all that with wonderful lives because of Jesus and here is what you can have kind of way. I told him last night how I saw it and that I had been doing some research and talking to people who came out the other side - I do think he for a moment questioned it but this morning he is away to church again. I have no doubt he will come back and not want to speak with me because they will advise him that I am a demonic power trying to cloud his judgement and destine him for hell.... I hate this situation - this was the most wonderful guy who has been turned into a person I do not know - but I am in love with the person I met - the kind, sensitive and loving guy who know is only emotional with those people. How am I ever going to sort this - he needs saved from those people who protest that they have helped him save himself from damnation. I can just see the praying over him at this stage to give him strength to disregard what I am saying. I do not want to call on his family - I do not know them well enough although I know his mum is concerned from little things/comments he mentioned over a period of time. I am however drawing great strength from this forum and your comments so please keep them coming - I too was sort of ambling down that road when I was with him - kind of support thing and some things made sense but a lot did not and when I questioned them they were horrified - accept god and that is it. They eat together, socialise (you know what I mean) and all together. I could maybe go to his friend who I am sure is concerned about what this guy has become.

 

Take care - you are wonderful people on here - a testimony to the fact that there are good people in the world who do not need to brainwash people into their way of thinking.

 

Tigger

[Guest Tiggerpup]

Hi

 

One other question - can someone tell me about bibles? Are there different bibles? The born again group this guy is with use the King James version - what is the difference in them? Do they provide different messages - because I would have assumed that there was one bible written and they all say the same thing. I would like to get a bible that shows how different the messages are in the King James (if that is the case) to prove a point.

[♦ Fuego ♦]

Hi

 

One other question - can someone tell me about bibles? Are there different bibles? The born again group this guy is with use the King James version - what is the difference in them? Do they provide different messages - because I would have assumed that there was one bible written and they all say the same thing. I would like to get a bible that shows how different the messages are in the King James (if that is the case) to prove a point.

 

There are groups of Xians that believe that the KJV bible is the only version in English that is inspired by God. They say that there are several verses in the modern English bibles that "purposefully" leave out references to hell or to the blood of Jesus, because the translators are all unbelievers and satan-worshipers. There are many books written to show that the modern translations are based on better evidence and understanding of the ancient languages, but that all takes a back seat to fear and propaganda with these folks. A roommate of mine was learning New Testament Greek and was trying to show one of the KJV crowd why a particular verse could not be accurate in the KJV, and the response was "Get that devil bible away from me!", never realizing that this is what the KJV was translated from... These folks are not the brightest bulbs apparently. The KJV inserts doctrines that are not even part of the "original" Greek manuscripts, and were clearly put in to emphasize church doctrine at the time.

 

The funniest thing I've sen is to show them what the actual KJV from 1611 looks like, since they all think that is what they are carrying. It was revised 4 times before 1769 to correct spelling errors and word choices. Here is a link to a site that shows what the original looks like: http://www.bible.ca/Kjv-1611-parable-sower.gif

 

They also do a good job of destroying the KJV-only arguments: http://www.bible.ca/b-kjv-only.htm

 

But for those of us who are now on the outside looking in, we know that no matter what the translation or version, we still don't know who wrote the gospels, they are only attributed to Matthew Mark Luke and John. We still see hell as a Greek religious concept that was added onto Judaism. We still see a vicious psychotic evil brute that relishes torture and bloodshed being called the God of Love. We see a deity described as Almighty that can't overcome people with iron chariots. We see the promises of Jesus that his followers would do what he had been doing and even greater because the Holy Spirit was coming to live in them, fall flat as God refuses to heal the blind, lepers, or amputees. No one in all of history has spoken in faith to a tree or mountain and have it uproot itself and be planted in the sea, though Jesus said all you needed was a tiny amount of faith.

 

Additionally, most of us here spent years in the church (30 years myself) and discovered that it isn't real. Some of us derived emotional and social benefit from church, others were severely abused mentally and physically. But now that we are out, there is a sense of peace, freedom, and an underlying foundation of knowing that we now are basing life on testable truth. I see Christianity as a first century cult that should have faded into obscurity, but instead is kept going by devotees, much like Mormonism will keep going despite being founded on fake visions from a known trickster.

 

Your friend is finding emotional benefit from this group, and will continue to translate their acceptance as proof that this God is real. I did for 30 years. Having people around me that echoed the scriptures and who all acted as though it were true served to re-enforce the emotional validity of the experience. But it wasn't true. There is no hell, there might be a God, but it isn't the one in the Bible. Jesus is largely an invented person, probably based on a charismatic cult leader of the first century. Words are attributed to him by unknown writers, and no other documents validate any of the historical events mentioned in the gospels.

 

But as I've been saying, your friend is not there based on the facts, but on emotional support and manipulation. The context of his support is the collective act of worshiping the God of the Bible, so that is what he will continue to do (most likely).

[Guest Tiggerpup]

I need help urgently. My partner is leaving me (we were only dating - and I love him dearly) because of being born again, the bible and those people in the church whom he fellowships with that he believes are so wonderful. I spoke with him and he is now questioning things but what I need is someone to give me information on how I can educate him to the brainwashing that goes on, that he can still believe in god and live his life and does not need to be born again and pray over everything and let god make all the decisions - his personality is gone - not the guy I knew and this is the saddest thing - I have to help him before it is too late. These people believe what they are saying - but they are not the be all and end all - surely someone can tell me that being a born again christian is just another religion really and give me stuff I can give to support helping this once lovely man see the light..... PLEASE HELP ME I NEED SOMEONES ASSISTANCE URGENTLY.....

 

 

My advice is for you to get together every friend and relative he still has outside the fundy group and then you and them sit him down a few weekends and talk to him about "disturbing" changes in his personality and how you guys care and love him and want the best for him. Tell him that you respect his right to "believe" in these things, but that you are concerned that perhaps he has become involved with a group of people who are a little too fanatical and zealous. Have the friends and relatives map out a strategy with you beforehand, before you sit him down and all of you talk to him. Remember to respect his "right" to get sucked down into this whirlpool, don't EVER be accusatory and make sure you keep in his comfort zone and stay non-judgmental in the way you come across (not truly non-judgmental as there is no such thing, but you know what I am saying).

 

I think you get the general idea..

 

Team effort, group effort. You need to realize that time is short for him, my guess is he will be consumed by this far sooner than you probably estimate.

 

How do I know what I am talking about? Well....

 

 

Thank you so much for your wonderful information and advice. If I may be so rude to ask a personal question - did you have a similar experience to what I am referring to and is this how you were helped? I know it is very personal but I want to be armed with as much information as possible to help save this guy from being 'saved'.

[Raul]

... Right?

 

 

 

Wrong or right, Raul, this post was not in the spirit of the guidelines for this particular forum. -pitchu

[Guest QuidEstCaritas?]

I need help urgently. My partner is leaving me (we were only dating - and I love him dearly) because of being born again, the bible and those people in the church whom he fellowships with that he believes are so wonderful. I spoke with him and he is now questioning things but what I need is someone to give me information on how I can educate him to the brainwashing that goes on, that he can still believe in god and live his life and does not need to be born again and pray over everything and let god make all the decisions - his personality is gone - not the guy I knew and this is the saddest thing - I have to help him before it is too late. These people believe what they are saying - but they are not the be all and end all - surely someone can tell me that being a born again christian is just another religion really and give me stuff I can give to support helping this once lovely man see the light..... PLEASE HELP ME I NEED SOMEONES ASSISTANCE URGENTLY.....

 

 

My advice is for you to get together every friend and relative he still has outside the fundy group and then you and them sit him down a few weekends and talk to him about "disturbing" changes in his personality and how you guys care and love him and want the best for him. Tell him that you respect his right to "believe" in these things, but that you are concerned that perhaps he has become involved with a group of people who are a little too fanatical and zealous. Have the friends and relatives map out a strategy with you beforehand, before you sit him down and all of you talk to him. Remember to respect his "right" to get sucked down into this whirlpool, don't EVER be accusatory and make sure you keep in his comfort zone and stay non-judgmental in the way you come across (not truly non-judgmental as there is no such thing, but you know what I am saying).

 

I think you get the general idea..

 

Team effort, group effort. You need to realize that time is short for him, my guess is he will be consumed by this far sooner than you probably estimate.

 

How do I know what I am talking about? Well....

 

 

Thank you so much for your wonderful information and advice. If I may be so rude to ask a personal question - did you have a similar experience to what I am referring to and is this how you were helped? I know it is very personal but I want to be armed with as much information as possible to help save this guy from being 'saved'.

 

 

Nah, it wasn't my experience.

 

However, I knew some people in the past who "exit counseled" me and the general strategy for a family intervention is what I just laid out to you. Everyone has to get involved. You need to use social psychology in your favor. I never had a family intervention because my entire family got sucked down into a quasi terrorist extremist sect and they are still in it. What happened in my case was that a roman catholic priest who was a cult educator for the archdiocese of new york -he's dead now- gave me contacts at the local church and with the help of him, a deacon at the local church, a knight of columbus the deacon assigned to me, and a family he knew in the area, I escaped the extremist sect that had sucked my entire family into it. Later on I was exit counseled for a year in a safehouse and I no longer keep in contact with the exit counselors because there is no need to. I also no longer keep in touch with my family because of the nature of the group and the fact that they wouldn't truly understand the concept that I should be able to make my own decisions given their own extreme inability to think and make decisions for themselves and their past history of severe abuse towards me and the rest of my siblings (as specified in group doctrine).

 

Anyway, it's doubtful you will convince him on your own. You need to get his family and his friends and relatives involved, find a common point if they are Christians, and then all of you work to convince him away from the group. If you all failed for some reason, you all will at least have the solid understanding that you came together to try and help him before it was too late and did your best. Power in numbers, remember that. I would recommend this book to you:

 

http://www.amazon.com/Releasing-Bonds-Empo...s/dp/0967068800

 

While it is true that some of what's in that book is a case of the pot calling the kettle black, the stuff works. Grab that book and read it if you want a roadmap for a combined family intervention. Some exit counselors play nice to religion/cults in order to avoid the "big stick" treatment from them but what they do works and it's fairly solid stuff. You don't need the book to implement what I have said, but it is quite a valuable asset.

[Guest QuidEstCaritas?]

... Right?

 

 

This is pretty naive.

 

 

 

Just re-editing out what I earlier edited out, QEC. Nothing to do with your comment here.

[Raul]

... Right?

This is pretty naive.

Yeah,I know.

[mahjong]

Sometimes it gets to where we don't have thoughts, but thoughts have us.

 

My mom has a friend whose son joined the Seventh-day Adventist church. Then he got engaged to a preacher's daughter. He was in the thick of it. My mom had her friend call me (I was SDA for 15 years) and we talked for a good hour. I recalled things I had long forgotten. She was 'armed' and presented some stuff to her son. She told my mom that her son is considering what she presented to him. She said it was a meaningful conversation and he was not put off by her (he could see that she talked to someone who knew the SDA doctrines very well).

 

The most difficult thing is that Christians will present things in such a way, using the authority of the bible, that it can seem so very relevant to now. And with what is going on in the world now, they must really be having a hayday of new converts. I know for myself that I was so thoroughly entrenched in Christianity that to this day I sometimes will start to get dragged into it, mentally. That is part of the reason I keep coming back to this site. I need a good dose of reality once in a while.

 

I think that your friend will most likely act apart from what you do or say. If he feels about you the way you do about him he will want you to become a Christian, also. He may feel guilty about pre-marital sex, if you are that involved, and may even push to get married to assuage his guilt. Christians do things that don't make sense. It is all in how we think. Sometimes it gets to where we don't have thoughts, but thoughts have us.

 

One idea may be to ask him to give it his best shot to convince you. Let him expound to his heart's content. Someone did this for me and it was the beginning of the end of Christianity for me. He allowed me to try to convert him. Then I listened to all he had to say about what didn't 'click' for him.

 

It scares me that you said his personality is gone. That is so very real and disturbing. I feel for you. Now I see why all my old friends 'dumped' me when I became SDA. I guess it was a kind of self preservation on their parts. I feel for you, Tiggerpup.

[Pandora Moon]

Tiggerpup the only advice I could give is not to attack the religion as that may make your partner go on the defensive . Christians seem to have a major persecution complex or at least that was the case in my experience with Jehovah's Witiness.

 

I hope that things work out for you no matter what you decide to do