Why Does Yahweh Hate Salads?

[Ouroboros]

So why wouldn't Yahweh accept what Cain gave unconditionally?

Because he didn't serve it with dressing...

[mwc]

I always wondered that as well, and didn't keep up with Christian commentary much, but stumbled across the Books of Adam and Eve, which I believe were written in 1st cent AD or something. Nevertheless, I read outside the Bible, and since the OT is dated only 5th-6th century BC, I find it applicable to study of Judaism, Christianity.

If this is where this is going then lets look at what Josephus says about it:

1. ADAM and Eve had two sons: the elder of them was named Cain; which name, when it is interpreted, signifies a possession: the younger was Abel, which signifies sorrow. They had also daughters. Now the two brethren were pleased with different courses of life: for Abel, the younger, was a lover of righteousness; and believing that God was present at all his actions, he excelled in virtue; and his employment was that of a shepherd. But Cain was not only very wicked in other respects, but was wholly intent upon getting; and he first contrived to plough the ground. He slew his brother on the occasion following : - They had resolved to sacrifice to God. Now Cain brought the fruits of the earth, and of his husbandry; but Abel brought milk, and the first-fruits of his flocks: but God was more delighted with the latter oblation, when he was honored with what grew naturally of its own accord, than he was with what was the invention of a covetous man, and gotten by forcing the ground; whence it was that Cain was very angry that Abel was preferred by God before him; and he slew his brother, and hid his dead body, thinking to escape discovery. But God, knowing what had been done, came to Cain, and asked him what was become of his brother, because he had not seen him of many days; whereas he used to observe them conversing together at other times.

 

Aliright, now how about Philo? He goes on for quite a bit but the following is the basic summary:

XXVII. (88) These now, and such as these, are the accusations brought against Cain, who after some days offered sacrifice; but Abel did not bring the same offerings, nor did he bring his offerings in the same manner; but instead of inanimate things he brought living sacrifices, and instead of younger things, worthy only of the second place, he offered what was older and of the first consideration, and instead of what was weak he offered what was strong and fat, for he says that "he made his sacrifice of the first-born of his flocks, and of their Fat,"{42}{#ge 4:3.} according to the most holy commandment.

This is all in addition to how Cain was simply an evil, rotten, person to begin with (much how Josephus states but in more words) even though the bible never says that about him.

 

It's obvious that these are both after the fact justifications (apologetics) more than anything else.

 

mwc

[mwc]

This is the introduction from sacred texts about it, I will have to look around a bit more for more info. These books are also called another name, I think Conflicts of Adam and Eve, or something to that nature. Anyway, it is still around 2000years old, so I consider it :wink:

Oh please. The Conflicts of Adam and Eve is thought to be from around 4th or 5th century CE. This is a xian work through and through. There is nothing of interest here (as far as this topic goes).

 

What you did is get people confused into thinking this was The Life of Adam and Eve which is a 1st century CE work. The thing is there are a number of different sources for that demonstrating problems for the death of Abel.

 

Here's the Greek:

1.1 [introduction. The story and history of Adam and Eve, the protoplasts, revealed by God to Moses his servant, when he received the tablets of the law from His hand, having been instructed by the Archangel Michael. May the Lord be praised. ] This is the story of Adam and Eve after they had gone out of Paradise.

1.2 And Adam took his wife Eve and went to the east and abode there eighteen years and two months.

1.3 And Eve conceived and bore two sons; Adiophotos, who is called Cain and Amilabes who is called Abel.

2.1 And after this, Adam and Eve were with one another and while they were sleeping, Eve said to Adam her lord:

2.2 "My lord, Adam, behold, I have seen in a dream this night the blood of my son Amilabes who is styled Abel being poured into the mouth of Cain his brother and he went on drinking it without mercy. But he begged him to leave a little of it.

2.3 Yet he hearkened not to him, but gulped it down completely; nor did it stay in his stomach, but came out of his mouth.

2.4 And Adam said, "Let us arise and go and see what has happened to them. (I fear) lest the adversary may be assailing them somewhere."

3.1 And they both went and found Abel murdered by the hand of Cain his brother.

3.2 And God said to Michael the archangel: "Say to Adam: 'Reveal not the mystery that you know to Cain your son, for he is a son of wrath. But do not be sad, for I will give you another son instead of him ; he shall show (to you) all that you shall do. Do not tell him anything.'"

3.3a Thus God spoke to his archangel. But Adam kept the word in his heart, and with him also was Eve, though they were sad concerning Abel their son.

4.1 And after this, Adam knew Eve his wife, and she conceived and bore Seth.

4.2 And Adam said to Eve: "Behold! we have begotten a son in place of Abel, whom Cain killed, let us give glory and sacrifice to God."

5.1a And Adam begat thirty sons and thirty daughters

 

Now the Latin:

22.1 Adam took Eve and the boy and led them to the east.

22.2 The Lord God sent various seeds by Michael the angel, who gave them to Adam and showed them how to work and tend the ground, in order to have fruit, from which they and all their generations might live.

22.3 Afterwards, Eve conceived and bore a son, whose name was Abel, and Cain and Abel remained together as one.

22.4a Eve said to Adam:

22.4b "My lord, while asleep I saw a vision like the blood of our son Abel on the hand of Cain who tasted it with his mouth. On account of this I am pained."

22.5 Adam said: "Woe, let not Cain kill Abel, but let us separate them from each other and make separate houses for them."

23.1 They made Cain to be a farmer, and Abel to be a shepherd that they might thus be separated from each other.

23.2 But even after this, Cain killed Abel. Adam was then 130 years old. Abel was killed when he was 122 years old.

23.3 After this Adam knew his wife and begot a son and called his name Seth.

24.1 Adam said to Eve: "Behold, I have begotten a son in place of Abel, whom Cain killed."

24.2 After Adam begot Seth, he lived for 800 years and begot 30 sons and 30 daughters 63 altogether and they were multiplied over the earth in its nations.

There are 3 more tellings of the same pericope but I'm not going to post them all. I'm not seeing jealousy enter into the picture. I'm not seeing "satan" here either...though I I believe the Georgian text had two shape-shifting demons in it...Here it is:

 

[23]3.3c And the times arrived when Cain and Abel had gone up towards their fields. Two demons resembling Cain and Abel came. One demon reproached the other demon. He became angry with him and took a stone sword, which was of a transparent stone [maybe same stone as Ex 4:25]. He cut his throat and killed him.

[23]3.3d And when Cain saw the blood, he went quickly and took the stone in his hand(s). But when Abel saw him coming upon him, he begged him, "Do not make me die, O my brother Cain!" He, however, did not accept his prayer and he spilled Abel's blood in front of him. And Adam and Eve afflicted themselves all that time with great sadness.

I guess they weren't shape shifters but just stand-ins. My bad.

 

Anyhow, these are some earlier takes on the Genesis events. It doesn't mention a sacrifice. It mentions a premonition (if "god" is the one that sends visions then he wanted Eve to know about the murder...how twisted is that?). It mentions some failed effort (sometimes) to stop the inevitable. It mentions that one kid is as good as the next and so Seth is a nifty replacement for Abel (I'm not seeing a strong argument against abortion or murder if just popping out another kid is the "fix").

 

mwc

[PitterPatter]

YoYo...you have ruined this thread. Shame on you.

[nightflight]

Maybe agriculture was "high tech"; God wanted simple hunter-gatherers to rule over.

[Ramen666]

So let me get this straight the argument why the Bible is correct is because the people that followed it of that time period? That makes no sense at all. It only shows like above that the Bible is just a product of that time period, people where not smart enough and did not grasp anything like how things worked.

 

That is why new religions fail today so much because we gained knowledge.

[Abiyoyo]

Funny. The great philosophers of Ex-C, and the first ones to say, Hey do you think that's the original Bible, it's not? Do you think it is accurate, it is full of contradictions? What about the Greek gods, or Greek philosophers, Yoyo? What about Muslims, YoYo? Are they going to hell too? What about the other gods, and other crucifixion stories, at the time of Jesus? Christianity was just a copy, YoYo!

 

It's all just made up YoYo! It's all mythical magic time, YoYo!

 

Well. SCREW YOU MWC! I will get my information were I see damn fit, and you can get on your horse and ride back to where you came from!

 

PitterPatter, I don't know you but you act like you know me, even though you only been around a week. You can screw off as well!

 

 

[Vomit Comet]

Jesus YoYo, you get up on the wrong side of the bed or something?

[Abiyoyo]

MWC

 

Another thing. Look into your wikipedia references, their is no citation for your 5th-6thAD exclamation!

 

This particular version is the work of unknown Egyptians. The lack of historical allusion makes it difficult to precisely date the writing, however, using other pseudepigraphical works as a reference, it was probably written a few hundred years before the birth of Christ. Parts of this version are found in the Jewish Talmud, and the Islamic Koran, showing what a vital role it played in the original literature of human wisdom. The Egyptian author wrote in Arabic, but later translations were found written in Ethiopic. The present English translation was translated in the late 1800’s by Dr. S. C. Malan and Dr. E. Trumpp. They translated into King James English from both the Arabic version and the Ethiopic version which was then published in The Forgotten Books of Eden in 1927 by The World Publishing Company.

http://www.thelostbooks.com/list.htm

 

 

This book is cited by ALL translations of being of an unknown date, and states the above.

http://books.google.com/books?id=Jrlz2SeGN...of+adam+and+eve

[Looking4Answers]

I will get my information were I see damn fit

 

Me, too! That's why I base my information on who god is from Calvin an Hobbs mixed with a little Far Side to balance things out.

 

Another thing. Look into your wikipedia references, their is no citation for your 5th-6thAD exclamation!

 

Maybe this will help:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conflict_of_A..._Eve_with_Satan

[Neon Genesis]

That's why I pointed those scriptures out, because it's a little different view than the traditional.

So, the moral of the story is don't worship a God that approves of arranged incestuous marriage?

[mwc]

This book is cited by ALL translations of being of an unknown date, and states the above.

http://books.google.com/books?id=Jrlz2SeGN...of+adam+and+eve

Yeah, I'm a real douche. You caught me. Except for this.

Whereas they all are apparently of Jewish origin this Conflict of Adam is altogether a Christian work and of a later date than those writings It is probably the work of some pious and orthodox Egyptian of the fifth or sixth century who tells his story or stories some of which are also found in the Talmud and thence in the Goran and elsewhere as they were then believed adding here and there a good deal of his own Yet all is told in the simple to Western taste perhaps childish style of pious Eastern writers of those days The author's devout faith runs throughout his narrative he seems willing and ready to believe much rather than to doubt to take things for granted rather than to question the truth of them

It is of course as yet impossible to fix with certainty the date of either the Arabic original or of the Ethiopic translation Dr Dillmann in the preface to his German translation seems to think this Conflict of Adam may date from the fifth or sixth century and there does not seem to be any good reason for thinking otherwise It is however certain that it must have been written before the ninth century judging from the numerous extracts from it given word for word by Said Ibn Batrik or Eutychus physician and also Melkite Patriarch who lived in the ninth century when he wrote his Nazam al jawahir or String of Gems as he called his Annals of the World from the creation to his own time It is a work of merit although perhaps too full of stories that cannot be received as authentic.

mwc

[mwc]

Well. SCREW YOU MWC! I will get my information were I see damn fit, and you can get on your horse and ride back to where you came from!

Uh, yeah. I don't really care where you get your info. I do care that it is presented accurately. Your text is a late xian text. It's not my fault. I offered another version that was from the correct time period. I guess that upsets you for some reason.

 

As for riding the horse, no. I went horse riding at a friends and got very saddle sore. It lasted something like 3 days. Haven't been in a hurry to ride a horse ever again. It was an interesting experience other than that though. Maybe I'll just stay here and we'll be buddies? If you turn crazy enough I might even make you my best friend.

 

mwc

[PitterPatter]

YoYo's new forum pic just really proves that he doesn't deserve to be taken seriously. What a fuckin' douche...

[Abiyoyo]

This book is cited by ALL translations of being of an unknown date, and states the above.

http://books.google.com/books?id=Jrlz2SeGN...of+adam+and+eve

Yeah, I'm a real douche. You caught me. Except for

 

MWC, he said that in 18 something It will be ok man. I am not trying to get nobody, no gotcha's. Just truth's, and discussion. Malan, in that time, as well as others felt the whole thing was dated at these times which you stated. Here is the difference.This particular piece from sacred text, was translated and broke down by segments, in parts. When Malan said 'The Book of Adam and Eve', he was referring to his whole book. His whole gathering which if you continue to read, Malans book goes into the time of Christ.

 

This piece from here gives this 'over all' about their translation etc

 

This is a popularized translation of the OT pseudepigrapha, quasi-Biblical writings which never achieved canonical status (or inclusion in any of the official Apocrypha). This isn't to say that these documents are forgeries, just that for one reason or another they were not considered part of the Biblical text by the first millenium (C.E.) compilers. This book contains translations of all of the texts found in volume I of the weighty Oxford University Press Apocrypha and Pseudepigrapha, without any of the apparatus.

 

That statement was for the introduction to, The Forgotten Books of Adam and Eve, yet it contains many writings.

 

The reference I gave was to the specific, now separated books The First and Second Books of Adam and Eve. For, those specific books. So, later translators say this part of these writings where unable to be dated :wink:

[Abiyoyo]

YoYo's new forum pic just really proves that he doesn't deserve to be taken seriously. What a fuckin' douche...

 

I thought it was kinda funny. I dedicated it to Neon He insisted that I claim Obama is Muslim, again, maybe you should stick around awhile before you start flapping yo gums. :assshake:

[Ouroboros]

Ah, so the new claim is that Obama is Santa Claus!

 

[Neon Genesis]

I thought it was kinda funny. I dedicated it to Neon He insisted that I claim Obama is Muslim, again, maybe you should stick around awhile before you start flapping yo gums. :assshake:

For some reason, it just reminds me of this: http://www.colbertnation.com/the-colbert-r...--uma-mysorekar

[mwc]

MWC, he said that in 18 something It will be ok man. I am not trying to get nobody, no gotcha's. Just truth's, and discussion. Malan, in that time, as well as others felt the whole thing was dated at these times which you stated. Here is the difference.This particular piece from sacred text, was translated and broke down by segments, in parts. When Malan said 'The Book of Adam and Eve', he was referring to his whole book. His whole gathering which if you continue to read, Malans book goes into the time of Christ.

Uh, yeah, he did. When he did the work. No one, to my knowledge, has seen fit to contradict him in all that time. Well, you, maybe.

 

That statement was for the introduction to, The Forgotten Books of Adam and Eve, yet it contains many writings.

 

The reference I gave was to the specific, now separated books The First and Second Books of Adam and Eve. For, those specific books. So, later translators say this part of these writings where unable to be dated :wink:

You're very confused. You point to a compilation of works and try to make them out as being a single unit. Stop it. The book from 1927 that you say try to say is somehow "better" uses Malan's work from earlier. It just publishes the "first" book as opposed to all four concerning A&E. This new text you point to now has many, many texts within it. Is it no surprise they cannot be dated or that some date back 2000 years?

 

I really don't care though. It's getting to the point of where we're arguing about what Batman can or cannot do based on some old non-canonical stories.

 

mwc

[Foxy Methoxy]

Hey all,

I got to thinking of the story of Cain and Abel, how they both offered Yahweh the best of what they

had. Cain offered the best from his garden, Abel one of the lambs of his flock. Abel's offering was

pleasing to Yahweh, but he wouldn't accept Cain's. The rest of the story gets tragic, Cain gets jealous

because Yahweh favors Abel's offering over his and kills Abel in a fit of anger.

 

So why wouldn't Yahweh accept what Cain gave unconditionally? Why weren't the fruits of the earth

as acceptable as a slain lamb? Christians will no doubt say that the lamb was a foreshadowing of

Christ, but to me it still makes no sense.

 

What's everyone's thoughts?

 

Stories such as this and several other seemingly nonsensical ones in the book of Genesis used to really bother me. After years of research (soul soul searching), I concluded two things:

 

1. The stories in Genesis probably pre-date writing and were passed down by word of mouth for centuries, possibly millennia, before finally being written down by scribes. When a story is passed by word of mouth and retold over the course of many generations, it's not a stretch to imagine it could become mysterious and mystical to the believer and totally nonsensical to the skeptic. When I read The story of Cain and Abel, my reaction to it is no different than if I were reading about Set and Osiris or Kali and Shiva. It's an ancient literary were and a fantastic example of ancient human storytelling. There aren't a lot of ancient stories floating around, so it is nice to have these works as a glimpse into our past.

 

2. Genesis refers to other stories that were common knowledge at the time, but aren't as well known to us today. For instance, take the story of the nephilim in Genesis 6. Supposedly, some watcher angels got lusty, mated with human women, and their offspring were giants. Come again?!! Then it moves on to the next story without giving much more information. Turns out, there's an entire book on the subject that was cut out of the Bible (The Book of Enoch). Why is this important? The author of Genesis assumes you've already read or at least are aware of The Book of Enoch, so he or she does not feel the need to elaborate on such an odd tale. I can't prove it, but I have a feeling Genesis is a Cliff's Notes compilation of lost books. The stories it is referring to were common knowledge at the time and are mysterious to us because we aren't as familiar with the stories they refer to.

 

For Christians who take everything in the Bible with a grain of salt, it's no big deal. For fundamentalists who believe the Bible is God's literal spoken word, they are challenged with making sense out of bizarre and seemingly nonsensical stories. Since I don't believe the Bible is God's literal word, I just raise an eyebrow at stories like Cain and Abel and move on to the next story, thankful to be able to read an ancient tale and get a glimpse into life thousands of years ago.

[Guest ReligionzBaffling]

I have a completely different theory I have yet to see on religion. However, this will be in time as it is even far out for all of you! I am a very out of the box thinker and glad that I have found a site that encourages people to use their brains!!

 

I see the Bible in a different light because I see that there is completely 2 different creations the first is created by God and the other is created by Lord God. This is what my theories are based on.

 

However, I am just guessing as we humans seemed not worthy of true knowledge on religion/God. I tend to believe if humans have been here on earth for 3.2 million years and we only have records maybe up to 4 - 6 thousand years; "Time" is missing for a reason. I do not think that it is any accident. Those that believe "long" ago that humans such as Lucy were APE LIKE, this is just not so. She had delicate wrists, meaning she did not swing from trees nor had to preform hard labor. When you go back 1.77 million years this creation matches the 1st creation in the Bible. They did not eat meat, nor the animals, much less have to till the earth. God took care of them, so it appears. The first creation is describe not knowing that they were naked. Well if you do not know that you are naked, how do you sin?? It is like a dog or cat, they do not sin, resist nor question their maker, because they do not know how to.

 

Could it be we are the creation that is cursed that "ate" the fruit of "good and evil"??? Was this a fruit or was this a metafor??? Eve as woman creates life and she curses all mankind.... But did EVE do this, or????

 

There is a reason that some Satanists use the "Holy Bible" along with all secret societies since our recorded time. Is this a coincidence, or is this too something that only the "in" "humans" know???

 

I think that if one was to create the Bible and or religions and confusion, much less "Holy" wars; there is an ultimate reason. Is this reason really for God or Lord God and are we humans unaware that we all worship the same Lord God, regardless of what our faith is??? This is a concept that many will reject. So if humans are to be tricked, there must be a reason; such as collecting souls.

 

This may sound way out there, but why such effort to trick?? Why use many of the same pagan rituals, beliefs, statues and why has Rome been leveled and rebuilt many times ("dark skinned Jesus VS a light skinned Jesus). Most would agree the the Bible acknowledges Rome as a great evil and or where the "anti-Christ" will rise. Hmmm... how odd, yet they promote it. I honestly do not see these "men" so holy to rise above this kind of negatively to graciously promote it, without taking away or altering the negative text against them.

 

Is Rome the REAL evil, or is this just smoke and mirrors??? The scapegoat per say. Our once angels, were once demons and now angels once again. How can this be??? and is this also for a reason? What happened to the pervious populations and WHY were they REALLY killed??? Who did they worship, hmmm..... And if the OT killed millions of people, why no last names??? Or is this for confussion... YES!!

 

Oh, before someone asks, I do not "hit the bong", however I love a good laugh and deep thinking; all done with my own brain that GOD gave me!

 

So who is Able, yes represents all the Christians and Cain comes to slaughter them with the help of Seth (AKA the original "twins") as it is all a trick ALL THE WAY AROUND! (Joshua, Isaiah, Jesus, aliens, other religions and suns of God, etc... - all a trick "HOLY GHOST illusion"!) All end with Ra / Re and the Pharaohs "Gods". I should note that I believe many in history have seen many of these Gods and aliens for REAL for a reason, or are they all unreal??? Nope many are "real".

 

And why... There are hieroglyphics with helicopters, submarines and UFO connecting them with the 9th planet. Hmm.... I was unaware that intergalactic travel required today's air technology; or maybe the ancients foresaw these air crafts; or maybe our governments are working with "aliens"; or are we looping "time" (karma) and we already had this equipment/technology , or a combination?

 

Most if not all western and eastern religions including Satanists say "Amen" at the end of their prayers (or the root of this word), most are baptized and all have the "holy ghost", could this be an accident... Or a better question is where/when did this word Amen come from and what does it really mean?? And who was John the Baptist and who did he really follow??? No, not Jesus!

[agnosticator]

Have you been reading those Dr. Bronner soap labels again?

[Abiyoyo]

Most if not all western and eastern religions including Satanists say "Amen" at the end of their prayers (or the root of this word), most are baptized and all have the "holy ghost", could this be an accident... Or a better question is where/when did this word Amen come from and what does it really mean?? And who was John the Baptist and who did he really follow??? No, not Jesus!

 

You sound like that guy on TV with all those ? marks on his jacket. The get free money guy Seriously, did you have a point?

[Neon Genesis]

Occam's razor is your friend, RZB.

[Guest ReligionzBaffling]

I am just saying that I was brainwashed and after I realized that it did not make sense. I realized that many have gone to long lengths to create mush confusion and why?? I do not think religions would do this for fun??

 

I do not not claim that I am right or that I even know exactly what I am talking about. I did do extensive research as my family would not answer why such a loving God is going around murdering in the OT, among many other evils. And what I found seemed very dark. I am open to all and their thoughts and did not come to make enemies. I have read a lot of what is on this board and enjoyed much of it sarcasm and all.

 

In any event I am here to learn and get to know others like me that realize that organized religion is not what most claim it to be.

 

So if I offended or came off wrong,I did not mean to. Now, I hope that I did not win the Satan Thumper Crown??